4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

PureMethodActor wrote...

@Xilizhra- Whether Anders is actually a devout Andrastian or not will really depend on whether there's a Second-Coming of Andraste or not in future DA's and she, herself, tells us what she meant by her verses (cause like the Bible), the Chant (in written form) was most likely written by man, and therefore, open to interpretation or bias towards a viewpoint. I personally don't see Anders as a devout Andrastian at all, and rather see his attitude as spitting in the face of her ideas, but that's just my take on it based on his personality.

That's not how it works. You don't get to decide that someone else isn't of a religion because they interpret its teachings differently. He wholeheartedly believes in Andraste and the Maker. That makes him a devout Andrastian. Deal.

I never liked Anders as a character to begin with and I only kept him as Grey Warden in Awakening to either get him to stop complaining (which was fruitless)

So it's okay to complain if a video game doesn't give you party members who don't like taking risks but are totally okay with taking on a high dragon, but it's not okay to complain about a tyrannical religious empire using fearmongering, twisted religious doctrine, and mass murder to oppress a minority? Just checking.

Xilizhra wrote...

But he also Tranquilizes (or attempts to) Jowan and throws Lily into Aeonar. He trusts Irving, but that seems to be the extent of his tolerance toward mages. And quite frankly, I don't know if I think much of Irving either; Orsino seemed far more loyal to his own people.

True, and very ironic. Of course his loyalty comes across as support for a psychopath to most people. Everyone completely writes off the fact he was willing to let the qunari kill him to save Bethany.

[Xilizhra]

True, and very ironic. Of course his loyalty comes across as support for a psychopath to most people. Everyone completely writes off the fact he was willing to let the qunari kill him to save Bethany.

I haven't seen that scene yet, but my warrior Hawke just entered Act 2, so I will soon enough.
One small touch to Orsino that I thought was interesting is that every single time he talks about the Kirkwall Circle, he refers to them as "my people" (except in the one end speech where he addresses them directly and says "my fellow mages"). Even Meredith calls them "your people" in the Gallows. It's certainly something I never saw from Irving, and it makes me wonder how Orsino would do in the Fereldan Circle.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I haven't seen that scene yet, but my warrior Hawke just entered Act 2, so I will soon enough.
One small touch to Orsino that I thought was interesting is that every single time he talks about the Kirkwall Circle, he refers to them as "my people" (except in the one end speech where he addresses them directly and says "my fellow mages"). Even Meredith calls them "your people" in the Gallows. It's certainly something I never saw from Irving, and it makes me wonder how Orsino would do in the Fereldan Circle.

If Orsino were in a Circle not built on the portal to Hell and under a sane Knight Commander, he'd be the best thing to happen to mages since the one that picked up a fallen tree branch one day and thought, "I bet I could point this at people and make stuff happen!"

[Silfren]

I'm gone for a whole day'n a half and there's only five extra pages? Man, you guys're starting to slack off!

*settles in with her knitting and reads*

[Silfren]

....OMG I hate you all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

It was my fault.

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

It was my fault.

Clearly. You went nuclear on us with Two Psychopaths One Lyriumblade.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

It was my fault.

Clearly. You went nuclear on us with Two Psychopaths One Lyriumblade.

Well what happened was as old as humanity itself.  Meredith showed Orisino hers, so Orisino had to show Meredith his....and the rest is history (and my brain is still reeling).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

I'm assuming you hate us for what was discussed in the last 5 pages. Sadly I don't even remember what the last 5 pages were about.

[LobselVith8]

PureMethodActor wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

PureMethodActor wrote...

@Deztyn- Exactly! There were too many libertarians and not nearly enough mages in the other fraternities to truly represent a balanced, reasonable point of view on their end. With the Templars (Act 3 Meredith aside), I saw a myriad of personalities, from those who were there to do a civic duty, to those who were earning their keep and providing for families, and then you have the truly vigilant like Cullen. With the Templars, you had a variety of viewpoints that supported or were against Chantry/Templar policy. It was balanced, reasonable, and therefore much more sympathetic of a viewpoint. Unless I'm playing an evil dick bloodmage, I can't ever see myself taking the option of murdering Thrask in "An Act of Mercy". Its too extreme of an option and only condoned by someone truly malevolent.

Too many Libertarians? Uldred is a Libertarian, but we only really get any interaction with him long after the demons he summoned overwhelmed him and consumed him. We meet quite a few Aequitarians. Senior Enchanters Torrin, Wynne, and First Enchanter Irving. Niall is an Isolationist. The mage protagonist can voice support for the Libertarian position in conversation with Enchanter Torrin, and we have the unnamed blood mage we meet for a few minutes during "A Broken Circle" I suppose, but that's all I can recall. Even DAA Anders didn't support breaking free from the Chantry (like for the same reason Wynne doesn't - she thought the death of all mages would follow).

I think Origins had a better showcase of the templars - Ser Bryant and the templars stationed at Lothering, Ser Otto, and Knight-Commander Greagoir. In DA2, we have Cullen saying mages shouldn't be treated like people and are weapons, while we had implications of rape with Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras, and Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment against all mages for something Anders did. The exception was Ser Thrask, and I hate that this character was wasted on such an insipid story like "Best Served Cold."

You DO realize I was only talking in regards to DA2, right? I hope, at least, you mistook me for talking about ALL of Dragon Age, cause otherwise you completely misunderstood me

I'm not talking about Origins at all, so I don't know why it was necessary to bring that up as I agree with you as far as Origins goes.

You do realize Origins is pretty much the only place where we actually see Libertarians, right? Anders isn't a Circle mage anymore, he wasn't a Libertarian even in DAA, and he's referenced as a Warden by Cassandra. The closest we come to a group even thinking along these lines are the Resolutionists, who we encounter for one single quest in Act III - who Leliana thinks are responsible for all the trouble happening in Kirkwall because she's blind to the fact the Knight-Commander became a dictator and is causing even her own templars to want to oust her - and even First Enchanter Orsino never says anything to the intent of being a Libertarian. Even the renegeade mages with Ser Thrask were working with renegade templars and are focused on ousting Meredith from power.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

@Silfren.. I think im getting to emotionally involved in this, iv been thinking about why and its things iv seen in Rl that makes me hate what anders does. Iv also seen 2 sides agreeing to a peaceful solution and it working. Im living it. I was abrupt and i apologise, its stupid taking it seriously i think ill play fallout for a bit lol.

I can absolutely see how it's easy to get too emotionally involved in this to the point where you need to step back.  That's actually the major redeeming value of DA2 that makes me overlook all the obviously rushed, nonsensical crap. 

I'm totally with you on how Anders' blowing up the Chantry can hit a particular chord in people so that they can't support his position no matter what. But in regards to the two sides agreeing to the peaceful solution...it isn't as though there was one in the works and Anders ruined any chance of it. 

There was no compromise going on because Elthina spent the entire seven years sitting on her damn hands and letting an extremist-turned-batcrazy knight commander and rogue templars run amok.  I'd agree with you if that was going on, but it just wasn't.  I've never denied that compromises can be had and peaceful solutions reached, but that's not what we see in the game.  Meredith and her underlings had all the power.  Elthina was the only advocate of any substance the mages had, and she permitted the status quo to continue, which meant that for all practical purposes she was siding with the templars and all the abuses that they represented.

[Beerfish]

Silfren wrote...

There was no compromise going on because Elthina spent the entire seven years sitting on her damn hands and letting an extremist-turned-batcrazy knight commander and rogue templars run amok. 

She didn't.  She met with both sides, tried to smooth things over, was caught off guard by how fast things went down hill after the Arishok situation.  You also conventinetly forgot to mention anything at all about the growng mage problem.  As I've said before on the actions or perceived innaction of Elthina your view of her will fall 100% along the lines on whether you support the mages or not and each time Elthina is brought up this is proved to be true.

She could have told the templars to solve the mage problem, bad things happen.
She could have neutered the templars, bad things happen.
She could have tried to smooth things over between each faction without bringing the hammer down, that 's what she tried to do and failed.

Of course if a person already has all the in game information available to them and if they have already 100% made up their mind as to what the right thing was to do then Elthina will get condemned because the right answer for Elthina was not  "Dump the templar commander and set the mages free!"

Modifié par Beerfish, 15 mai 2011 - 04:33 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

I'm assuming you hate us for what was discussed in the last 5 pages. Sadly I don't even remember what the last 5 pages were about.

Meresino was just wrong.

Worse than Meredanders.

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

I'm assuming you hate us for what was discussed in the last 5 pages. Sadly I don't even remember what the last 5 pages were about.

Meresino was just wrong.

Worse than Meredanders.

Wasn't it heartwarming to see Meridith and Orisino share?

-Polaris

[Silfren]

@Lobselvith8

Re: Danarius, I don't remember precisely what he says, but I think that if you give Fenris back to him, he promises you something along the lines of "the help of a powerful magister of the Imperium." I'd imagine that'd come in handy for an apostate Hawke'n Anders team trying to front a war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...
I'm totally with you on how Anders' blowing up the Chantry can hit a particular chord in people so that they can't support his position no matter what. But in regards to the two sides agreeing to the peaceful solution...it isn't as though there was one in the works and Anders ruined any chance of it. 

There was no compromise going on because Elthina spent the entire seven years sitting on her damn hands and letting an extremist-turned-batcrazy knight commander and rogue templars run amok. 

Because Hawke was a useless lazy good for nothing. And because Anders didn't think it was even possible (and he said that). Many who support Anders' act always seem to forget that the game explicitly mentionned that he is losing control and is becoming paranoid. He is not sane and sober. So how can anyone genuinely agree with what he is doing? Difference between sympathy (and I do sympathize with him) and genuine agreement. 

It's true, no plan for compromise was happening, but a relatively peaceful solution was possible. It just required Hawke to get off his ass. He could have rallied the Ferelden refugees, the populace and nobility who dislike Meredith, the guards who also dislike Meredith, merchant's guild and Templars like Thrashk who we know are against Meredith from Act 2. I say relatively peaceful, because Meredith had to be ousted by force. But the sheer amount of factions that could have been rallied against her is staggering, due to her incompetence, and that would have avoided the chaotic situation Anders created. 

And that could have been used as a platform for gradual reform vis a vis the mage issue. Because such an unprecendented event of having mages, nobles, commoners and even Templars fight together against a regime they deem to be oppressive, could have led to important changes.

But Anders did not think in those terms because he was clearly becoming paranoid and saw everyone as enemies. He expressed his indifference to commoners being endangered by magic, but also quite foolishly dismisses the idea that mages also can face danger from magic. He thinks the baroness subjugating people with her magic to be impressive and a show of power (for me, it's a show of vanity and weakness).

So in short, yea Anders did not ruin a compromise plan because there wasn't one. But on the otherhand, he didn't even think of one and rejects the idea completely anyways, at least by the end where he is clearly not sane. Instead he opted for blowing stuff up, which anyone can do without requiring a lot of thinking and planning. But I attribute a lot of this also to Hawke's uselessness and laziness. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 04:40 .

[IanPolaris]

Beerfish wrote...

Of course if a person already has all the in game information available to them and if they have already 100% made up their mind as to what the right thing was to do then Elthina will get condemned because the right answer for Elthina was not  "Dump the templar commander and set the mages free!"

WRONG!  All we've asked of Elhina is that she do her damned job!  Meredith was flouting Chantry law and practice and had been for years, and Elthina knew it.  Not just about tranquility either.  Mereidth was openly taking (and abusing) authority as a secular ruler that was not rightfully hers as a Templar.  That's a fireable offense and Elthina has the authority to relieve Meredith of command.

We don't just see that with Meredith either.  Elthina knows for years that Sister (and later Mother) Petrice is a loose cannon of the worst kind and does NOTHING to reign in her subordinate until the Arishock is ready to do his duty to the Qun by shifting through rubble.  Then suddenly she discovers 'respect for the law'.  Amazing......

So tell me, given that Meredith is allowed to get away with everything short of murder, how can Elthina even be remotely considered to be negotiating in good faith if one party (Meredith) not only has no desire to negotiate, but absolutely no incentive to either given that Elthina will whitewash to the Divine anything she does?

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So in short, yea Anders did not ruin a compromise plan because there wasn't one. But on the otherhand, he didn't even think of one and rejects the idea completely anyways, at least by the end where he is clearly not sane. Instead he opted for blowing stuff up, which anyone can do without requiring a lot of thinking and planning. But I attribute a lot of this also to Hawke's uselessness and laziness. 

So true.  For the record, while I think Anders was largely right, I DON'T agree with what he did and never have.  In fact I am with the pro-templar people in calling what he did an open act of terrorism.

It's one (more) reason I dislike DA2.  I don't WANT to play a useless and lazy Hawke that can't get off his fat posterior and actually help people especially if I want ot play a heroic character...because you're right.  The elements were there for a third party, Hawke led takeover that could have actually paved the way for at least a genuine attempt (no guarantees) of a long term, gradual solution.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

Silfren wrote...

There was no compromise going on because Elthina spent the entire seven years sitting on her damn hands and letting an extremist-turned-batcrazy knight commander and rogue templars run amok. 

She didn't.  She met with both sides, tried to smooth things over, was caught off guard by how fast things went down hill after the Arishok situation.  You also conventinetly forgot to mention anything at all about the growng mage problem.  As I've said before on the actions or perceived innaction of Elthina your view of her will fall 100% along the lines on whether you support the mages or not and each time Elthina is brought up this is proved to be true.

She could have told the templars to solve the mage problem, bad things happen.
She could have neutered the templars, bad things happen.
She could have tried to smooth things over between each faction without bringing the hammer down, that 's what she tried to do and failed.

Of course if a person already has all the in game information available to them and if they have already 100% made up their mind as to what the right thing was to do then Elthina will get condemned because the right answer for Elthina was not  "Dump the templar commander and set the mages free!"

Wrong.  My perception of Elthina is what helped to cement my position as pro-mage.  It wasn't informed by my pro-mage position.  Think whatever you like, but I am the final authority on how I arrived at my conclusions, not you, and you're just flat out incorrect in your assertion that I just hate Elthina because I'm Team Mage.

I maintain that attempting to "smooth things over" is useless.  I don't have any respect for a position of neutrality in the face of the abuses that were going on, because to be neutral in such a situation is to de facto side with the group that has all the power.  We don't see Elthina attempting to take the pot off the burner, or turn off the heat, to use a silly analogy.  What little effort she does put in amounts to letting the situation continue to simmer.  That wasn't gonna do anything but delay the inevitable.

It's been said that Elthina tells Hawke she met with Orsino and Meredith.  I can't speak to that because I haven't seen that dialogue.  Nevertheless, as the acting Grand Cleric, Elthina had a responsibility to deal with Meredith that went beyond just trying to smooth things over.  Orsino wasn't the one causing the problems.  What was talking with him supposed to accomplish? Getting him to shut up about all the abuses?  And if she talked with Meredith to no avail, then the next step was to have Meredith removed.  That was definitely within Elthina's authority.  If it was that she didn't feel she had the power to back up said authority, well...that's where appealing to the Divine should have come into play.

As for the "growing mage problem" I conveniently forgot to mention?  I didn't conveniently forget to mention it because it's irrelevant.  At least insofar as you're trying to insinuate its relevance.  Any growing mage problem was directly caused by Meredith and her templars. I refuse to hold extreme measures against a group of people who are driven to it in self-defense.  People have the right to defend themselves at any cost, and when they're being treated as guilty until proven innocent, and forced into situations where they quite literally have nothing to lose...well, I'm going to blame the ****s who put them in that position, because that's where the blame rightfully belongs.

Modifié par Silfren, 15 mai 2011 - 05:06 .

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

I'm assuming you hate us for what was discussed in the last 5 pages. Sadly I don't even remember what the last 5 pages were about.

Meresino was just wrong.

Worse than Meredanders.

Wasn't it heartwarming to see Meridith and Orisino share?

-Polaris

*drowns herself in brain bleach*

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....OMG I hate you all.

I'm assuming you hate us for what was discussed in the last 5 pages. Sadly I don't even remember what the last 5 pages were about.

Meresino was just wrong.

Worse than Meredanders.

Wasn't it heartwarming to see Meridith and Orisino share?

-Polaris

*drowns herself in brain bleach*

don't forget to scrub behind the ears! If you don't it'll come back to haunt you by worming its way into your brain again!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mai 2011 - 04:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
So true.  For the record, while I think Anders was largely right, I DON'T agree with what he did and never have.  In fact I am with the pro-templar people in calling what he did an open act of terrorism.

It's one (more) reason I dislike DA2.  I don't WANT to play a useless and lazy Hawke that can't get off his fat posterior and actually help people especially if I want ot play a heroic character...because you're right.  The elements were there for a third party, Hawke led takeover that could have actually paved the way for at least a genuine attempt (no guarantees) of a long term, gradual solution.

-Polaris

Of course there is never a guarantee in anything, just like the mage revolution is not guaranteed to succeed or to create a better system should it succeed. The difference is that once a revolution starts, there is no going back. Had Hawke acted, he could have been flexible and should he fail, they can always launch a revolution.

But the greatest obstacle to Hawke failing to bring peace and gradual reform to Kirkwall was outside intervention, specifically Orlais and the Chantry. Now I would say that it's extremily idiotic for the Chantry to declare an Exalted March on an Andrastrian city where the people, nobility, mages and even Templar elements are all in support of a legitimate government they helped put in place. Especially if that regime is not trying to dispute the status quo too abruptly. But the Chantry is apparently run by idiots, so an exalted march was possible, but I think that would be the Chantry shooting itself in both feet.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
So true.  For the record, while I think Anders was largely right, I DON'T agree with what he did and never have.  In fact I am with the pro-templar people in calling what he did an open act of terrorism.

It's one (more) reason I dislike DA2.  I don't WANT to play a useless and lazy Hawke that can't get off his fat posterior and actually help people especially if I want ot play a heroic character...because you're right.  The elements were there for a third party, Hawke led takeover that could have actually paved the way for at least a genuine attempt (no guarantees) of a long term, gradual solution.

-Polaris

Of course there is never a guarantee in anything, just like the mage revolution is not guaranteed to succeed or to create a better system should it succeed. The difference is that once a revolution starts, there is no going back. Had Hawke acted, he could have been flexible and should he fail, they can always launch a revolution.

But the greatest obstacle to Hawke failing to bring peace and gradual reform to Kirkwall was outside intervention, specifically Orlais and the Chantry. Now I would say that it's extremily idiotic for the Chantry to declare an Exalted March on an Andrastrian city where the people, nobility, mages and even Templar elements are all in support of a legitimate government they helped put in place. Especially if that regime is not trying to dispute the status quo too abruptly. But the Chantry is apparently run by idiots, so an exalted march was possible, but I think that would be the Chantry shooting itself in both feet.

This would've definitely been a better way to set up the fact that "the mighty Templars could be defied."


What I'm not sure of though is if after Meredith sees how many people are against her, she and whatever Templar cronies of hers decide to slaughter the mages still should be present. Would the fact that so many people stood against Meredith, one templar, be enough for the mages to consider rebelling?

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Of course if a person already has all the in game information available to them and if they have already 100% made up their mind as to what the right thing was to do then Elthina will get condemned because the right answer for Elthina was not  "Dump the templar commander and set the mages free!"

WRONG!  All we've asked of Elhina is that she do her damned job!  Meredith was flouting Chantry law and practice and had been for years, and Elthina knew it.  Not just about tranquility either.  Mereidth was openly taking (and abusing) authority as a secular ruler that was not rightfully hers as a Templar.  That's a fireable offense and Elthina has the authority to relieve Meredith of command.

We don't just see that with Meredith either.  Elthina knows for years that Sister (and later Mother) Petrice is a loose cannon of the worst kind and does NOTHING to reign in her subordinate until the Arishock is ready to do his duty to the Qun by shifting through rubble.  Then suddenly she discovers 'respect for the law'.  Amazing......

So tell me, given that Meredith is allowed to get away with everything short of murder, how can Elthina even be remotely considered to be negotiating in good faith if one party (Meredith) not only has no desire to negotiate, but absolutely no incentive to either given that Elthina will whitewash to the Divine anything she does?

-Polaris

This, pretty much.  I'd have had a great deal more sympathy for Elthina if she'd been trying to turn Kirkwall's Circle into something resembling Ferelden's.  I am not saying that she should have advocated for the mages being given total freedom.  Yes, I think the Circle system as a whole is unjust, and broken beyond any hope of actually working even if I did think it was morally sound.  But I never expected Elthina to suddenly wake up with a completely anti-Circle position and act from there.  Just putting an end to the abuses themselves and requiring Meredith to be reasonable in her expression of a Knight Commander's duties. But Elthina wasn't even trying to do just that much.  Telling Meredith to go back to the Gallows and calm down, "like a good girl," doesn't cut it--especially not when that damn scene illustrates the power differential between mages and templars: Meredith was instructed to go back under her own power; Orsino, on the other hand, was forcibly taken back.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
This would've definitely been a better way to set up the fact that "the mighty Templars could be defied."


What I'm not sure of though is if after Meredith sees how many people are against her, she and whatever Templar cronies of hers decide to slaughter the mages still should be present. Would the fact that so many people stood against Meredith, one templar, be enough for the mages to consider rebelling?

If they see that everyone in Kirkwall wants to remove Meredith, including many Templars and that the populace sympathized with them, why wouldn't they? I personally doubt people like Cullen, who expressed their doubt of Meredith, would willingly wage war on Kirkwall to keep her in power.

Of course you needed effective leadership of the Circle, which should be connected and allied to Hawke, and my Hawke would have probably sidelined Orsino and replaced him with someone else. 

Meredith over-reacting would have just accelerated the inevitable. Really the only thing that could have stopped such a coalition was something like what Anders did. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:05 .