Xilizhra wrote...
It's certainly something I never saw from Irving, and it makes me wonder how Orsino would do in the Fereldan Circle.
IanPolaris wrote...
So true. For the record, while I think Anders was largely right, I DON'T agree with what he did and never have. In fact I am with the pro-templar people in calling what he did an open act of terrorism.
-Polaris
Silfren wrote...
The vast majority of people in the pro-mage camp also, from what I've seen, consider what he did an act of terrorism and unacceptable, unjustifiable. That's why he gets shanked in the majority of pro-mage playthroughs.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:12 .
Silfren wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
So true. For the record, while I think Anders was largely right, I DON'T agree with what he did and never have. In fact I am with the pro-templar people in calling what he did an open act of terrorism.
-Polaris
That's not really the "pro-templar" position, even though there's a tendency among that crowd to try to paint the pro-mage position as either pro-terrorism or pro-pretending it wasn't terrorism.
The vast majority of people in the pro-mage camp also, from what I've seen, consider what he did an act of terrorism and unacceptable, unjustifiable. That's why he gets shanked in the majority of pro-mage playthroughs.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
This would've definitely been a better way to set up the fact that "the mighty Templars could be defied."
What I'm not sure of though is if after Meredith sees how many people are against her, she and whatever Templar cronies of hers decide to slaughter the mages still should be present. Would the fact that so many people stood against Meredith, one templar, be enough for the mages to consider rebelling?
If they see that everyone in Kirkwall wants to remove Meredith, including many Templars and that the populace sympathized with them, why wouldn't they? I personally doubt people like Cullen, who expressed their doubt of Meredith, would willingly wage war on Kirkwall to keep her in power.
Of course you needed effective leadership of the Circle, which should be connected and allied to Hawke, and my Hawke would have probably sidelined Orsino and replaced him with someone else.
Meredith over-reacting would have just accelerated the inevitable. Really the only thing that could have stopped such a coalition was something like what Anders did.
Modifié par IanPolaris, 15 mai 2011 - 05:18 .
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Except the problem is that removing Meredith from power without the RoA is still keeping the same relationship that mages have with the Templars. They'd make a better Circle, but it's not showing that they can defy the Templars. Just a tyrant of a woman who needed to be ousted from power
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:19 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You're saying that what Hawke would not have unleashed a revolt across Thedas?
Well yea, that's the point, I don't want a massive war in Thedas if it can be avoided. But it would definitely have a ripple and gradual effect everyhere else. Because it is an un precedented event.
IanPolaris wrote...
It would have made a much more statistfying story (at least for my heroic hawke) for him to do this and have this work completely undermined and destroyed by an Exalted March called by the Chantry (which did seem to be in the cards).
If my Hawke did something and genuinely tried and was thwarted by outside forces, it would be far, far more satisfying than not being allowed to try at all.
-Polaris
Edit: In such an event (Meredith/Divine call for RoA/Exalted March), when a popularly supported change of power was done that advocated REASONBLE reforms to the circle system was brutally supressed by the Chantry, then I could see all the circles rising up in open revolt and setting the world on fire. Indeed, they'd be foolish not to given that compromise was tried and the Chantry put it down by brutal force. In such a case, revolution is the only reasonable alternative.
IanPolaris wrote...
True, but if the Divine/Chantry launched an Exalted March against Kirkwall AGAINST a popular uprising that cut accross groups and started reasonable reforms, that almost CERTAINLY would have sparked a mage revolt if that's what BW wanted for their story.
However, at least you (playing Hawke) could have reasonably said that you tried.
-Polaris
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:23 .
IanPolaris wrote...
I think KoP is onto something though. Yes, if you gain an alliance to remove Meredith by force, you (at least for now) maintain the circle system as it is, but it DOES show that Templars can be defied and you can reasonably use this political power as a (gasp) active Hawke to at least push through some reforms.
It would have made a much more statistfying story (at least for my heroic hawke) for him to do this and have this work completely undermined and destroyed by an Exalted March called by the Chantry (which did seem to be in the cards).
If my Hawke did something and genuinely tried and was thwarted by outside forces, it would be far, far more satisfying than not being allowed to try at all.
-Polaris
Edit: In such an event (Meredith/Divine call for RoA/Exalted March), when a popularly supported change of power was done that advocated REASONBLE reforms to the circle system was brutally supressed by the Chantry, then I could see all the circles rising up in open revolt and setting the world on fire. Indeed, they'd be foolish not to given that compromise was tried and the Chantry put it down by brutal force. In such a case, revolution is the only reasonable alternative.
Modifié par Silfren, 15 mai 2011 - 05:29 .
IanPolaris wrote...
I think KoP is onto something though. Yes, if you gain an alliance to remove Meredith by force, you (at least for now) maintain the circle system as it is, but it DOES show that Templars can be defied and you can reasonably use this political power as a (gasp) active Hawke to at least push through some reforms.
It would have made a much more statistfying story (at least for my heroic hawke) for him to do this and have this work completely undermined and destroyed by an Exalted March called by the Chantry (which did seem to be in the cards).
If my Hawke did something and genuinely tried and was thwarted by outside forces, it would be far, far more satisfying than not being allowed to try at all.
-Polaris
Edit: In such an event (Meredith/Divine call for RoA/Exalted March), when a popularly supported change of power was done that advocated REASONBLE reforms to the circle system was brutally supressed by the Chantry, then I could see all the circles rising up in open revolt and setting the world on fire. Indeed, they'd be foolish not to given that compromise was tried and the Chantry put it down by brutal force. In such a case, revolution is the only reasonable alternative.
Silfren wrote...
Indeed. A Hawke who saw the injustices of the Kirkwall Circle and used her power and status, especially after becoming Champion, to effect drastic change in the worst of the Circles of Thedas...it would have set the stage for her to lead to permanent change within all the Circles, domino-effect style. That story could have been written, and it would have fit Bioware's whole "Rise to Power" theme a lot better.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:31 .
Here's the problem: not nearly enough of this was true until Act 3. Remember that Kirkwall is used to the templars de facto running the city; it took three years of it being more direct to start pissing off the nobility, and Orsino had to help spur that on. The guard wouldn't help; Aveline tells Sebastian outright that it's their duty to support Meredith until someone better comes along, and since the templars have so much power already, it'd have to be someone better whom the templars supported. And Aveline would never risk a breakdown of order to aid in a rebellion (unless, as in the mage ending, it was too late), The Fereldans are powerless, and the nobles, as mentioned before, don't start feeling threatened for years.It's true, no plan for compromise was happening, but a relatively peaceful solution was possible. It just required Hawke to get off his ass. He could have rallied the Ferelden refugees, the populace and nobility who dislike Meredith, the guards who also dislike Meredith, merchant's guild and Templars like Thrashk who we know are against Meredith from Act 2. I say relatively peaceful, because Meredith had to be ousted by force. But the sheer amount of factions that could have been rallied against her is staggering, due to her incompetence, and that would have avoided the chaotic situation Anders created.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Silfren wrote...
Indeed. A Hawke who saw the injustices of the Kirkwall Circle and used her power and status, especially after becoming Champion, to effect drastic change in the worst of the Circles of Thedas...it would have set the stage for her to lead to permanent change within all the Circles, domino-effect style. That story could have been written, and it would have fit Bioware's whole "Rise to Power" theme a lot better.
I think he could have been active since Act 2 actually.
The way he becomes champion by defeating the Qunari is idiotic and is not a rise to power. It's more like being a superhero (so their claim to having a different kind of story is a lie). He just kills and that's it.
A more interesting rise to power is after the Qunari attack, Hawke goes to darktown (which the Qunari may have neglected), rally up the Ferelden refugees and Aveline's guards and rushes to build a militia (a quest having Hawke raid a weapons depot or something could have been used). Hawke then leads his ragtag militia and strikes out, catching the Qunari offguard. And defeats them.
This would have served several purposes. First, this is a real rise to power that involves something more than just killing, otherwise I'll have to believe that the incredible Hulk is some sort of power broker. Also, it increases Hawke's power in the political system as the Ferelden refugees are established to be his initial power base. Also, they would set the stage for a possible rivalry with Meredith, as both can claim to have saved Kirkwall. And that would have given more context for Meredith's attempt to oust Aveline, which of yet is just the act of an incompetent moron for no reason. And also would have given cotnext for Meredith's blocking of a Viscount election as she is afraid that Hawke would win hands down.
Xilizhra wrote...
Here's the problem: not nearly enough of this was true until Act 3. Remember that Kirkwall is used to the templars de facto running the city; it took three years of it being more direct to start pissing off the nobility, and Orsino had to help spur that on. The guard wouldn't help; Aveline tells Sebastian outright that it's their duty to support Meredith until someone better comes along, and since the templars have so much power already, it'd have to be someone better whom the templars supported. And Aveline would never risk a breakdown of order to aid in a rebellion (unless, as in the mage ending, it was too late), The Fereldans are powerless, and the nobles, as mentioned before, don't start feeling threatened for years.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:39 .
IanPolaris wrote...
KoP,
So aren't you writing this (DA2)? I don't mean to be mocking, but what we've come up with in just one page of forum discussions is SO much better than what it took the actual writing team months to come up with.
-Polaris
Silfren wrote...
...Why don't you write for Bioware?
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
we need to hire Male Hawke's VA. Quickly everyone, we must join forces to make a better game!
Xilizhra wrote...
There are a lot of possibilities, it's true, but since we have no idea what happened in those three years, we can't conclusively say that Hawke is just an idiot. There's simply not enough evidence to draw any one conclusion.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:45 .
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