4350 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
As for Anders, just because Justice is screwing him up doesn't mean he can't ever be right about something.

I'd be much more relunctant to say that when it's made clear he is paranoid and losing control. And when justice himself admits that his views are inadequate for the real world.

This was certainly not possible after Best Served Cold. The mages and templars willing to rebel against Meredith were slaughtered because Grace used them as a weapon against Hawke.

After 3 years of inaction, yea we got to that point. Which served little purpose other than to ridiculously villify mages whenever they got the chance.

One quest that could have been present in those years of planning is a power struggle between Grace and Hawke over who would lead the coalition and of course Grace, being the idiot that she is, gets slaughetered before she jeapordizes the effort with her insanity.

Or the Divine launches an exalted march because Kirkwall has "fallen to magic." I think that one's more likely.

Which leads to the mage revolution and the continuation of the plot. And the fall of the Chantry as it constantly shoots itself in the foot.

It is a defiance of the system. In fact it's an even bigger one because it showed that mages can rally up mass support and can sork multilaterally with other social groups. That's the biggest challenge to the entire system, as the premise of the system is that the exclusion and seperation of mages from the rest of society is necessary and can't be otherwise.

It's not a defiance of the system. Meredith was breaking the rules herself, giving her the boot and setting things back to normal only shows a support for the same broken system that put her in power in the first place.
.

Kicking her out is showing that Templars getting out of line will not be tolerated.
And no one said setting them back to normal, but rather gradually reforming the system, using the unprecendented event of mages collaborating with the various factions of Kirkwall including Templar dissidents as a foundation for change.

Commoners, nobles and even Templars allying with mages against a common enemy like Meredith is not an event to be underestimated. It would surely send ripples in the entire system that is based on the premise that mages will never acquire any outside support.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 06:23 .

[TEWR]

Keep Grace, but mod it so she doesn't go insane. She was still sane when you killed Decimus. Just keep her sane.


What can I say, she's good looking. I have a soft spot for good looking women.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

I disagree. The mages aren't just holding back because they haven't been outraged, they're holding back because they haven't seen that a RoA can be successfully fended off. Besides, the Chantry would probably just give the world some **** and bull story about how they were all being controlled by blood magic.

Actually I accounted for this.  The popular uprising would show that Templars could be defied, but having the Chantry stomp out  a reasonable reform effort by an Exalted March would be absolute proof that the Chantry doesn't want compromise.  Under those two conditions, I easily see the circles rising up in revolt and justifiably so.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

Hmm.

Should we keep the whole Chantry explosion thing?

[TEWR]

maybe keep it for when Kirkwall receives word that the Divine has actually called for an Exalted March, but instead of killing Elthina you just make it a symbolic explosion.


Fight the power!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmm.

Should we keep the whole Chantry explosion thing?

That would make me severily dislike Anders if he jeopordizes my efforts and I would immediately publically tranquilize (so as to not make him a martyr) him and make it clear he represents no one.

One way this could be kept is Anders doign that when he learns that the Chantry is considering to call for an Exalted march, but it was still being debated. Anders, in his paranoia and extremism, makes the first move and says that compromise is impossible. The Chantry, learning of this, immediately call for an Exalted march and it gets much more support after what he did (self-fullfilling prophecy).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 06:28 .

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmm.

Should we keep the whole Chantry explosion thing?

Possibly.  In fact I can easily see Meredith doing it either on her own hock or by tricking Anders into it (and Anders might not like the uprising to support a circle system so he might be able to be tricked).

In fact I've always felt that the only reason Anders blew up the Chantry and killed Elthina was because he beat Meredith to it (and Meredith would arrange to have some 'usual suspect' mages to take the blame).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmm.

Should we keep the whole Chantry explosion thing?

Possibly.  In fact I can easily see Meredith doing it either on her own hock or by tricking Anders into it (and Anders might not like the uprising to support a circle system so he might be able to be tricked).

In fact I've always felt that the only reason Anders blew up the Chantry and killed Elthina was because he beat Meredith to it (and Meredith would arrange to have some 'usual suspect' mages to take the blame).

-Polaris

That may sound too much like sister Petrice though, which may become redundant.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmm.

Should we keep the whole Chantry explosion thing?

Possibly.  In fact I can easily see Meredith doing it either on her own hock or by tricking Anders into it (and Anders might not like the uprising to support a circle system so he might be able to be tricked).

In fact I've always felt that the only reason Anders blew up the Chantry and killed Elthina was because he beat Meredith to it (and Meredith would arrange to have some 'usual suspect' mages to take the blame).

-Polaris

That may sound too much like sister Petrice though, which may become redundant.

Point taken, but some types of plans seem repetative and redundant because they work.  Setting up an act of terror and having another group take the fall for it is one of the oldest "dirty trick" in human history.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Point taken, but some types of plans seem repetative and redundant because they work.  Setting up an act of terror and having another group take the fall for it is one of the oldest "dirty trick" in human history.

-Polaris

That's what the Japanese did to justify their invasion of Manchuria.

Hmm, what if an extremist faction within the Chantry sends a Seeker to do this?
It would add more mystery and introduce the internal Chantry divisions that I think will be an issue that future games will address. And because I don't think Meredith is smart enough to pull it off.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 06:35 .

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmm.

Should we keep the whole Chantry explosion thing?

That would make me severily dislike Anders if he jeopordizes my efforts and I would immediately publically tranquilize (so as to not make him a martyr) him and make it clear he represents no one.

One way this could be kept is Anders doign that when he learns that the Chantry is considering to call for an Exalted march, but it was still being debated. Anders, in his paranoia and extremism, makes the first move and says that compromise is impossible. The Chantry, learning of this, immediately call for an Exalted march and it gets much more support after what he did (self-fullfilling prophecy).

Publically making Anders Tranquil wouldn't prevent his becoming a martyr.  It's just as likely to make him such, if not even more so.  Just sayin'.

[Maria13]

Or the Germans regarding the start of WWI... It's a very old trick indeed...

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Point taken, but some types of plans seem repetative and redundant because they work.  Setting up an act of terror and having another group take the fall for it is one of the oldest "dirty trick" in human history.

-Polaris

That's what the Japanese did to justify their invasion of Manchuria.

Hmm, what if an extremist faction within the Chantry sends a Seeker to do this?
It would add more mystery and introduce the internal Chantry divisions that I think will be an issue that future games will address. And because I don't think Meredith is smart enough to pull it off.

If she survives, Mother Petrice would be just about perfect for this.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmm.

Should we keep the whole Chantry explosion thing?

That would make me severily dislike Anders if he jeopordizes my efforts and I would immediately publically tranquilize (so as to not make him a martyr) him and make it clear he represents no one.

One way this could be kept is Anders doign that when he learns that the Chantry is considering to call for an Exalted march, but it was still being debated. Anders, in his paranoia and extremism, makes the first move and says that compromise is impossible. The Chantry, learning of this, immediately call for an Exalted march and it gets much more support after what he did (self-fullfilling prophecy).

Also, I think the Chantry explosion could be kept, in keeping with Polaris's idea.  After the Chantry declares an Exalted March in response to an attempt for creating reforms, and thus proves it has no interest in such...boom!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...
Publically making Anders Tranquil wouldn't prevent his becoming a martyr.  It's just as likely to make him such, if not even more so.  Just sayin'.

I don't think so.
I know many cases of *war heroes* being thrown to the streets to live as shells of men, and as beggars and no one saw them as martyrs.

I think Anders can be delt with without making him a martyr.

[TEWR]

well remember guys, we need to put choices in here on what to do in certain scenarios.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...
Also, I think the Chantry explosion could be kept, in keeping with Polaris's idea.  After the Chantry declares an Exalted March in response to an attempt for creating reforms, and thus proves it has no interest in such...boom!

Too much villification of the Chantry and it doesn't address the internal divisions imo.

I prefer a faction within the Chantry manipulating Anders into doing it, before an Exlated March is declared (instead, it's being debated). Once that happens, the extremist faction of the Chantry have enough legitimacy to pressure for a March.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 06:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well remember guys, we need to put choices in here on what to do in certain scenarios.

Eh, DA2 didn't really have choices. At least major ones, it all led to the same conclusion. 

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Publically making Anders Tranquil wouldn't prevent his becoming a martyr.  It's just as likely to make him such, if not even more so.  Just sayin'.

I don't think so.
I know many cases of *war heroes* being thrown to the streets to live as shells of men, and as beggars and no one saw them as martyrs.

I think Anders can be delt with without making him a martyr.

I dunno.  All you have to have is mages who view Anders as a hero and a freedom fighter, who loathe the very idea of the Rite of Tranquility.  Anyone who viewed that as a fate worse than death would likely consider him a martyr.

[Xilizhra]

Publically Tranquilizing Anders would be an extraordinarily bad idea and just make you look needlessly cruel.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Publically making Anders Tranquil wouldn't prevent his becoming a martyr.  It's just as likely to make him such, if not even more so.  Just sayin'.

I don't think so.
I know many cases of *war heroes* being thrown to the streets to live as shells of men, and as beggars and no one saw them as martyrs.

I think Anders can be delt with without making him a martyr.

I dunno.  All you have to have is mages who view Anders as a hero and a freedom fighter, who loathe the very idea of the Rite of Tranquility.  Anyone who viewed that as a fate worse than death would likely consider him a martyr.

Other than for a few mages, I don't think anyone would see him as such once it's made clear that he is an abomination (or half one), is paranoid, insane and schemed to endanger the new order.

Not that hard if Hawke is popular.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well remember guys, we need to put choices in here on what to do in certain scenarios.

Eh, DA2 didn't really have choices. At least major ones, it all led to the same conclusion. 

that's another way we can fix the game. Like the Magistrate's Orders quest.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Publically Tranquilizing Anders would be an extraordinarily bad idea and just make you look needlessly cruel.

Cruelty is sometimes necessary to make it clear to everyone that Anders was not representing anyone.

It doens't have to be public, just tranquilization and make him be forgotten.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Also, I think the Chantry explosion could be kept, in keeping with Polaris's idea.  After the Chantry declares an Exalted March in response to an attempt for creating reforms, and thus proves it has no interest in such...boom!

Too much villification of the Chantry and it doesn't address the internal divisions imo.

I prefer a faction within the Chantry manipulating Anders into doing it, before an Exlated March is declared (instead, it's being debated). Once that happens, the extremist faction of the Chantry have enough legitimacy to pressure for a March.

maybe have this faction pretending that they're siding with the mages?

[Xilizhra]

that's another way we can fix the game. Like the Magistrate's Orders quest.

Do we really need to "fix" that though?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 mai 2011 - 06:49 .