4350 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

KoP, I think that would be a good idea so long as it wasn't a forced action. Some people want him alive to help, others want him dead, others may want him Tranquil. As long as it's an additional choice and not a forced decision it's a good idea.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
maybe have this faction pretending that they're siding with the mages?

Not necessarily. There is apparently some evidence that N@zis manipulated a mentall unstable communist unto burning the Reichstag.  Same here. A Chantry extremists manipulates Anders, who is mentally unstable, to do this.

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Publically making Anders Tranquil wouldn't prevent his becoming a martyr.  It's just as likely to make him such, if not even more so.  Just sayin'.

I don't think so.
I know many cases of *war heroes* being thrown to the streets to live as shells of men, and as beggars and no one saw them as martyrs.

I think Anders can be delt with without making him a martyr.

I dunno.  All you have to have is mages who view Anders as a hero and a freedom fighter, who loathe the very idea of the Rite of Tranquility.  Anyone who viewed that as a fate worse than death would likely consider him a martyr.

Other than for a few mages, I don't think anyone would see him as such once it's made clear that he is an abomination (or half one), is paranoid, insane and schemed to endanger the new order.

Not that hard if Hawke is popular.

One problem with that is that it's possible that Anders CAN'T be made Tranquil.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

that's another way we can fix the game. Like the Magistrate's Orders quest.

Do we really need to "fix" that though?

well, killing Kelder should get you the support of the alienage, which Merrill could even help garner and the Magistrate tries to seek revenge on you at some point. On the other side of it, if you spare Kelder you get the Magistrate's support.

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd be much more relunctant to say that when it's made clear he is paranoid and losing control. And when justice himself admits that his views are inadequate for the real world.

You're arguing that he is wrong rather than his action is wrong. Why is that?

After 3 years of inaction, yea we got to that point. Which served little purpose other than to ridiculously villify mages whenever they got the chance.

It's quite possible it took 3 years for the nobles and such to get sick of Meredith enough for that grand plan to be feasible, too. Remember that it starts when Orsino starts trying to rile people up. Apparently he didn't feel it was reasonably possible until then either.

Which leads to the mage revolution and the continuation of the plot. And the fall of the Chantry as it constantly shoots itself in the foot.

So basically, you're planning to use Kirkwall as bait, but Anders is out of line for blowing up one building?

Kicking her out is showing that Templars getting out of line will not be tolerated. And no one said setting them back to normal, but rather gradually reforming the system, using the unprecendented event of mages collaborating with the various factions of Kirkwall including Templar dissidents as a foundation for change.

And that's where you'd lose the support of a great many of that assembled army. You're uniting them to unseat Meredith, not give mages new rights.

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually I accounted for this.  The popular uprising would show that Templars could be defied, but having the Chantry stomp out  a reasonable reform effort by an Exalted March would be absolute proof that the Chantry doesn't want compromise.  Under those two conditions, I easily see the circles rising up in revolt and justifiably so.

It shows they can be defied, but not that they can be defied by mages. The rest of the Circles aren't going to have the support of half the templars, most of the nobles, ect. in uprising. Why would they think they could manage the same result?

Silfren wrote...

Publically making Anders Tranquil wouldn't prevent his becoming a martyr. It's just as likely to make him such, if not even more so. Just sayin'.

This. Mages would view that as WORSE than an execution. At least many of them would.

As for all this mod planning stuff, you guys know that until the toolset is updated to support DA2 you can't even open the dialogue files right? They're only even able to open erf's through third party apps.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KoP, I think that would be a good idea so long as it wasn't a forced action. Some people want him alive to help, others want him dead, others may want him Tranquil. As long as it's an additional choice and not a forced decision it's a good idea.

Yea sure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...
One problem with that is that it's possible that Anders CAN'T be made Tranquil.

If not, then public execution.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

@Lobselvith8

Re: Danarius, I don't remember precisely what he says, but I think that if you give Fenris back to him, he promises you something along the lines of "the help of a powerful magister of the Imperium." I'd imagine that'd come in handy for an apostate Hawke'n Anders team trying to front a war.

Thanks for letting me know. I checked out the scene. "I'll make it worth your while, of course. The power of the Imperium will be at your disposal." He gives a "little gift" that's apparently bugged, and offers to give Hawke a visit to the Arcanist Hall in Minrathous. I wonder if Varania takes over his holdings after he's killed since she seemed to be Danarius' apprentice.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 mai 2011 - 07:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd be much more relunctant to say that when it's made clear he is paranoid and losing control. And when justice himself admits that his views are inadequate for the real world.

You're arguing that he is wrong rather than his action is wrong. Why is that?

I am arguing both and I've already debated with you as to why.
It's an act with no plan, no organization, no pragmatism, one that alienated popular support and gave Meredith the pretext she needed.

It's quite possible it took 3 years for the nobles and such to get sick of Meredith enough for that grand plan to be feasible, too. Remember that it starts when Orsino starts trying to rile people up. Apparently he didn't feel it was reasonably possible until then either.

Orsino is also a moron and has no political clout.

If you are not proactively trying to convince nobles (and you have a lot of arguments), then of course they may not realize what is happening until later or they may not feel confident enough to do somethign about it.  But we know that even before many were not so happy with Dumar being Meredith's puppet. They need proactive encouragement however to be rallied up and Hawke could do that. 

So basically, you're planning to use Kirkwall as bait, but Anders is out of line for blowing up one building?

No not at all. I'd try to reform. But if the Chantry wants to shoot itself in the foot for no legitimate reason, then they are clearly the aggressors.

And that's where you'd lose the support of a great many of that assembled army. You're uniting them to unseat Meredith, not give mages new rights.

Except the populace sympathized with mages. If mages proved themselves useful, I dont' see why the others wouldn't approve of them getting new rights. Unlike you, I would not be planning to remove Templar regulation and the Circle system, at least in the short run.

Furthermore, an effective leader can rally up many diverse factions under his banner and reform. It's been done and I don't see why it can't be done now.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 07:02 .

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

@Lobselvith8

Re: Danarius, I don't remember precisely what he says, but I think that if you give Fenris back to him, he promises you something along the lines of "the help of a powerful magister of the Imperium." I'd imagine that'd come in handy for an apostate Hawke'n Anders team trying to front a war.

Thanks for letting me know. I checked out the scene. "I'll make it worth your while, of course. The power of the Imperium will be at your disposal." He gives a "little gift" that's apparently bugged, and offers to give Hawke a visit to the Arcanist Hall in Minrathous. I wonder if Hadriana takes over his holdings after he's killed since she seemed to be Danarius' apprentice.

Does it matter?  Hadriana has to be dead for you to meet Danarius.

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Does it matter?  Hadriana has to be dead for you to meet Danarius.

I meant Varania, Fenris' sister, since she seems to be his apprentice in exchange for aiding Danarius capture Fenris.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Does it matter?  Hadriana has to be dead for you to meet Danarius.

I meant Varania, Fenris' sister, since she seems to be his apprentice in exchange for aiding Danarius capture Fenris.

Except I got the impression from Varania that she would have been made Danarius' apprentice conditional upon Fenris' capture, and she wasn't his apprentice yet.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Does it matter?  Hadriana has to be dead for you to meet Danarius.

I meant Varania, Fenris' sister, since she seems to be his apprentice in exchange for aiding Danarius capture Fenris.

Except I got the impression from Varania that she would have been made Danarius' apprentice conditional upon Fenris' capture, and she wasn't his apprentice yet.

-Polaris

I looked over the scene again, and you're correct. I suppose another Magister or senator might claim Danarius' holdings, then. I guess Varania would either return to her master, Ahriman, or remain in the Free Marches.

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am arguing both and I've already debated with you as to why.
It's an act with no plan, no organization, no pragmatism, one that alienated popular support and gave Meredith the pretext she needed.

He had a plan. I don't see how you can say all that when it worked out exactly as he hoped. Meredith tried to Annul the Circle without good reason and failed. This caused the rest of the Circles to rebel as well. Mages everywhere are fighting for their freedom now. It's exactly what he was aiming for and it looks like there's a very good chance mages will be free (or at least, much more free than before) because of it.

If you are not proactively trying to convince nobles (and you have a lot of arguments), then of course they may not realize what is happening until later or they may not feel confident enough to do somethign about it.  But we know that even before many were not so happy with Dumar being Meredith's puppet. They need proactive encouragement however to be rallied up and Hawke could do that.

Hmm. A good point, I'll concede that.

No not at all. I'd try to reform. But if the Chantry wants to shoot itself in the foot for no legitimate reason, then they are clearly the aggressors.

Except you know they'll almost certainly attack. And the masses who believe the Chantry's indoctrination about mages wouldn't fault them for it. Kirkwall is openly flouting Chantry law in a Chantry controlled nation by trying to reform Circle control. The last ones to do that was the Tevinter Chantry.

Except the populace sympathized with mages. If mages proved themselves useful, I dont' see why the others wouldn't approve of them getting new rights. Unlike you, I would not be planning to remove Templar regulation and the Circle system, at least in the short run.

Some of the commoners were sympathizing with the mages. That's hardly the same thing as the populace as a whole. And likely they were only sympathizing with them because Meredith was a monster. If you put in a KC that doesn't abuse their power, that support will likely disappear long before you get around to those slow changes.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

Except you know they'll almost certainly attack. And the masses who believe the Chantry's indoctrination about mages wouldn't fault them for it. Kirkwall is openly flouting Chantry law in a Chantry controlled nation by trying to reform Circle control. The last ones to do that was the Tevinter Chantry.

I disagree.  If you have extremely popular leaders on all sides making a genuine effort to make the city better, the popular people will rally to them.  You BET the Chantry would view this as a threat, and you BET there would likely be an Exalted March (Lelianna virtually promises one in Faith), but when your husband/wife/children are being crushed and slaughtered underfoot by the Divine's own troops, it's a little hard to support an Orlesian Divine thousands of miles away over your own Guard Captain, Hero of the City, and even a gruff but popular (new) Knight Commander who might not like the reforms but is willing to do what is right.

In fact because of this, I'd expect such a Divine March to be very brutal and use the "dog laws" of war (ie no one within the city at the start of hostilities survives).  This is an old and brutal way of putting down such popular uprisings and if you don't think the Divine won't do it, read up on the New Exalted Marches.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

I disagree.  If you have extremely popular leaders on all sides making a genuine effort to make the city better, the popular people will rally to them.  You BET the Chantry would view this as a threat, and you BET there would likely be an Exalted March (Lelianna virtually promises one in Faith), but when your husband/wife/children are being crushed and slaughtered underfoot by the Divine's own troops, it's a little hard to support an Orlesian Divine thousands of miles away over your own Guard Captain, Hero of the City, and even a gruff but popular (new) Knight Commander who might not like the reforms but is willing to do what is right.

In fact because of this, I'd expect such a Divine March to be very brutal and use the "dog laws" of war (ie no one within the city at the start of hostilities survives).  This is an old and brutal way of putting down such popular uprisings and if you don't think the Divine won't do it, read up on the New Exalted Marches.

-Polaris

I agree, but that's exactly my issue with it. I didn't mean the masses in Kirkwall would be okay with the EM, I meant the masses in Thedas at large who weren't involved. All they'll hear is that some city in the Free Marches went heretic and had to be put down.

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So in short, yea Anders did not ruin a compromise plan because there wasn't one. But on the otherhand, he didn't even think of one and rejects the idea completely anyways, at least by the end where he is clearly not sane. Instead he opted for blowing stuff up, which anyone can do without requiring a lot of thinking and planning. But I attribute a lot of this also to Hawke's uselessness and laziness. 

So true.  For the record, while I think Anders was largely right, I DON'T agree with what he did and never have.  In fact I am with the pro-templar people in calling what he did an open act of terrorism.

It's one (more) reason I dislike DA2.  I don't WANT to play a useless and lazy Hawke that can't get off his fat posterior and actually help people especially if I want ot play a heroic character...because you're right.  The elements were there for a third party, Hawke led takeover that could have actually paved the way for at least a genuine attempt (no guarantees) of a long term, gradual solution.

-Polaris

There are a lot of promising roads that could have been taken in Kirkwall because of the situation that was caused by the Knight-Commander becoming the de facto Viscount, but were never provided. I wonder if this demonstrates that if the Hero of Ferelden was a mage, he could accomplish more good for the mages, in terms of their perception and politically. He has an irrevocable impact on numerous societies, he is possibly good friends with the ruler of Ferelden and can earn the respect of the Hero of River Dane, he can be Commander of the Grey and Arl of Amaranthine, earn the respect of the nobles and become even more heroic to the common people, solidify his relationship with House Dace through the Amgarrak venture, and apparently manages Amaranthine well enough that different factions in Kirkwall are concerned that the arling will dominate the Waking Sea.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

I agree, but that's exactly my issue with it. I didn't mean the masses in Kirkwall would be okay with the EM, I meant the masses in Thedas at large who weren't involved. All they'll hear is that some city in the Free Marches went heretic and had to be put down.

That depends.  The Divine is weeks away at best, and Kirkwall is very defensible.  It would be almost impossible to raze the city and put down the insurrection before both sides of the story got out regardless of what the Divine might wish.

Indeed, I don't think the Chantry has ever faced such a global uprising before and the one that was closest (Tevinter) the Chantry ultimately lost.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So in short, yea Anders did not ruin a compromise plan because there wasn't one. But on the otherhand, he didn't even think of one and rejects the idea completely anyways, at least by the end where he is clearly not sane. Instead he opted for blowing stuff up, which anyone can do without requiring a lot of thinking and planning. But I attribute a lot of this also to Hawke's uselessness and laziness. 

So true.  For the record, while I think Anders was largely right, I DON'T agree with what he did and never have.  In fact I am with the pro-templar people in calling what he did an open act of terrorism.

It's one (more) reason I dislike DA2.  I don't WANT to play a useless and lazy Hawke that can't get off his fat posterior and actually help people especially if I want ot play a heroic character...because you're right.  The elements were there for a third party, Hawke led takeover that could have actually paved the way for at least a genuine attempt (no guarantees) of a long term, gradual solution.

-Polaris

There are a lot of promising roads that could have been taken in Kirkwall because of the situation that was caused by the Knight-Commander becoming the de facto Viscount, but were never provided. I wonder if this demonstrates that if the Hero of Ferelden was a mage, he could accomplish more good for the mages, in terms of their perception and politically. He has an irrevocable impact on numerous societies, he is possibly good friends with the ruler of Ferelden and can earn the respect of the Hero of River Dane, he can be Commander of the Grey and Arl of Amaranthine, earn the respect of the nobles and become even more heroic to the common people, solidify his relationship with House Dace through the Amgarrak venture, and apparently manages Amaranthine well enough that different factions in Kirkwall are concerned that the arling will dominate the Waking Sea.

Which is why the Devs pulled the "dissapearing" act on the Hero of Fereldan.  They don't want anyone (let alone a mage) interfere with the railroaded story that DG wants to tell (and no I have little to no respect for DG)...less because in just a couple of mages we've outlined a script for DA2 that does the same thing plotwise, but is far, far better.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

That depends.  The Divine is weeks away at best, and Kirkwall is very defensible.  It would be almost impossible to raze the city and put down the insurrection before both sides of the story got out regardless of what the Divine might wish.

Indeed, I don't think the Chantry has ever faced such a global uprising before and the one that was closest (Tevinter) the Chantry ultimately lost.

-Polaris

Hmm. That's possible, but it depends on how much of the Chantry's kool-aid the world has been drinking. If the people generally believe mages need to be locked up as much as the Chantry says, then it wouldn't garner enough support. And the overall population's viewpoint on the matter is something we don't know unfortunately.

Either way, I still pose the question of how one can condemn blowing up a single building in one hand while using the entire city as martyrdom bait with the other.

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Of course if a person already has all the in game information available to them and if they have already 100% made up their mind as to what the right thing was to do then Elthina will get condemned because the right answer for Elthina was not  "Dump the templar commander and set the mages free!"

WRONG!  All we've asked of Elhina is that she do her damned job!  Meredith was flouting Chantry law and practice and had been for years, and Elthina knew it.  Not just about tranquility either.  Mereidth was openly taking (and abusing) authority as a secular ruler that was not rightfully hers as a Templar.  That's a fireable offense and Elthina has the authority to relieve Meredith of command.

We don't just see that with Meredith either.  Elthina knows for years that Sister (and later Mother) Petrice is a loose cannon of the worst kind and does NOTHING to reign in her subordinate until the Arishock is ready to do his duty to the Qun by shifting through rubble.  Then suddenly she discovers 'respect for the law'.  Amazing......

So tell me, given that Meredith is allowed to get away with everything short of murder, how can Elthina even be remotely considered to be negotiating in good faith if one party (Meredith) not only has no desire to negotiate, but absolutely no incentive to either given that Elthina will whitewash to the Divine anything she does?

-Polaris

Proving my point once again for the 100th time.  "She did a bad job because she did not do her job!"  And then a endless blurb about how horribler the templars and meredith are without ONCE saying a word about the all of the bad, dangerous behavior of mages. 

As I said timee and again.  Elthina is a bad preson because she didn't do away with meredith and neuter the templars according to the pro mage people in this discussion.

If you wanted her to do her job which includes not letting blood mages, abominations, tevinbters, ambiotious mages, crazy mages she should have told meredith to clamp down on the circle, remove orsino and root out all apostates and non circle mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
He had a plan. I don't see how you can say all that when it worked out exactly as he hoped. Meredith tried to Annul the Circle without good reason and failed. This caused the rest of the Circles to rebel as well. Mages everywhere are fighting for their freedom now. It's exactly what he was aiming for and it looks like there's a very good chance mages will be free (or at least, much more free than before) because of it.

No long term plan and vision, and no idea of what kind of system he wants and no exact plan on how to bring it. If he had any intelligence, he'd know that alienating the populace, the single thing that made Meredith's life a living hell, is a phenominally stupid idea.

A short term plan is not that hard to have. What matters is the long term plan that he does not have.

Except you know they'll almost certainly attack. And the masses who believe the Chantry's indoctrination about mages wouldn't fault them for it. Kirkwall is openly flouting Chantry law in a Chantry controlled nation by trying to reform Circle control. The last ones to do that was the Tevinter Chantry.

No, I don't know they'll certainly attack. They might, they might not. They'll certainly be pissed, but that's different. If they do attack, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Since we were talking about scenarios for the game that will lead to the same conclusion, then yea the Chantry would attack. Hawke doesn't have to be certain it will.

Tevinter has an entire history that makes it a very easy target for villification and they established their own Chantry. Kirkwall is different and with the people approving of those reforms and establishing a legitimate government, without kicking the Chantry out, they will have a hard time justifying their aggression.

Some of the commoners were sympathizing with the mages. That's hardly the same thing as the populace as a whole. And likely they were only sympathizing with them because Meredith was a monster. If you put in a KC that doesn't abuse their power, that support will likely disappear long before you get around to those slow changes.

Many not some, commoners were sympathizing with mages.
If Thrashk is put as KC for instance, who believes that Templars and mages can collaborate and that mages have sacred rights, then reforms can happen.

Furthermore, you underestimate the power of charisma and popularity plus political clout. Hawke, being the savior of Kirkwall from Qunari invasion has a lot of legitimacy.

Is it easy? No, it's certainly harder than blowing up a building. But it's feasible.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 07:39 .

[Beerfish]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hawke's inaction is part of the problem.

Agreed, but the developers didn't let him take the kind of action I would have taken regarding Anders once he start acting as suspicious as a person can act.

[Beerfish]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Many not some, commoners were sympathizing with mages.
If Thrashk is put as KC for instance, who believes that Templars and mages can collaborated and that mages have sacred rights, then reforms can happen.

Yeah too bad about thrask, in a good number of games murdered by a crazed blood mage who ran away from the starkhaven circle with her good buddy Decimus. 

[Xilizhra]

Question: why couldn't Hawke and the other mages magically bombard the templar ships still crossing the harbor after the final battle, to wipe out all of Kirkwall's templars in one stroke?