4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think that's underestimating people. They do believe bs, but not without cause.

They are more likely to acccept BS if Anders destroyed the Chantry, then otherwise.[/quote]

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, as it comes down to one's opinion on humanity as a whole. And mine is pretty low.

[quote]If you are not qualified, it's better you do nothing and not make it worse.[/quote]

You always have to risk making things worse when you have to fight to make things better. He made a calculated risk, and one that is paying off.

[quote]And if they win, then? What kind of society they want to build?

And even if they do build something, Anders was not the one to do it.[/quote]

So it all falls on Anders' shoulders? He has to lay every brick on the road to freedom?

[quote]You said that either peacefully or violently, mages were going to control Kirkwall.[/quote]

I did? *rereads* Hmm. Bad wording on my part, not quite sure what happened there. I suppose I was trying to reword the thought and forgot to edit it right. But I didn't mean control as in political control of Kirkwall, rather control over their own lives. More civil liberties. That said, I'm not in the least opposed to a good and qualified person taking an office if he happens to be a mage.

[quote]Actually, what Alistair is doing shows that their control is limited. And it's only pertaining to mages, yes they have control over them which is what I said. Other than that, they do not control states.[/quote]

Tell that to Orzammar, whom they considered converting by force.

[quote]Unless they are willing to relocate a large number of Templars from Circles else where (which is not a wise move), I very much doubt that the Chantry on its own can wage a private war against a popular government. All their wars were done by states. And no, the Chantry does not have the strongest army in Thedas at all. That would be Orlais, Nevarra, Tevinter and the Qunari.[/quote]

It can't be four different nations. Anyway, I distinctly recall reading somewhere in the game that the Chantry's templars comprise Thedas' largest army but I can't find it mentioned anywhere on the wiki, so... =/

[quote]They didn't. It was Orlais. They supported it, but they did not declare an Exalted March. And then they recognized Maric's regime because he was popular. So no, completely different.[/quote]

I meant the refusal of the magi boon.

[quote]And no, in the eyes of the Orlesian Chantry, the Tevinters are heretics. For them, they are not real Andrastrians. If Hawke does not start a schism with the Chantry, they have no real legitimate reason to declare Kirkwall heretical.[/quote]

And by trying to give mages more rights, Hawke *is* starting a schism.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
I never thought it was skewed, artificially or otherwise, and I never found it difficult to side with the mages. I learned early on, through my character as opposed to meta-gaming, both about the Hellmouth aspect, and about how abysmally mages were treated in Kirkwall.[/quote]

It's a... I'm going to be polite and call it a personality thing. Some people just can't help themselves from judging a the whole by the few. And many of them didn't notice the reasons DA2's gauntlet of mage insanity doesn't represent mages as a whole but are unwilling to change that stance once stated. People are hardwired to be idiots when it comes to debating. If the other party makes a valid point, people generally only think on how they can respond to defend their position rather than asking themselves if this new information means they should change their position. This is why you never convince anyone of anything.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

So we can at least agree that taking mages out of their homes is necessary even if we disagree about the details?

I'll take it. [/quote]

Hehe. Yeah, some education on their powers is certainly necessary. Just not wrecking their family for... I don't even know why the Chantry says they have to do it.

[quote]... Connor was a desire demon abomination, and he can lay waste to all of Redcliffe.[/quote]

The Redcliffe storyline never made sense to me. If a desire demon possessing a child could cause that much damage, then a pride demon possessing an experienced mage would be Blight levels of destruction. The situation at the Ferelden Circle wouldn't have been a single tower mostly wiped out, it would've probably been armageddon.

[qupte]So let's say you're right correct, Hawke and friends manage to kill every last templar. How many mages are actually going to be left standing at that point? 20? 50? 100? If just one of those is the next Connor (Because we do know for sure there are demons and abominations all over the place at this point) I think you can make a fair argument that it would have been better to have just gone along with the annulment.[/quote]

I would think the templars would back down once either Meredith was dead or they realized they were in serious danger of losing the battle. I don't think it's a good idea to kill every last templar there and instantly abolish the Circle. I just think helping a madwoman commit mass murder, and leave her in power to continue her madness, is going to be worse both short and long term.

[quote]Aside from Cuckoo Bananas Ambrosia's idea to march on her own cathedral, Kirkwall's is the only known March attempt that's really unjustified. (Unless there's lore I've missed. Always possible.)[/quote]

I haven't seen any compelling proof that the one against the Dales was justified either. Nor do I think the one against the Imperial Chantry was just either. I'm not condoning Tevinter as a whole, but the Chantry was going to war for the wrong reasons. The one against the Qunari was more self defense against an impending invasion than anything else. So really, the only march I do think was pure and good was the one Andraste herself led against Tevinter.

[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...

1st point: Anders is classified as a heretic because he openly defies The specific religion of the Andrastian Chantry in DA2. He is breaking their rules and therefore is NOT a devout Andrastian. Throwing the word back at ya: Deal[/quote]

How are you not getting this? The Chantry is making an interpretation of Andraste's words. An interpretation. Anders has a different interpretation, as do many people. Including Leliana, the Divine's supposed right hand. You know who else is a heretic by your standard? Grand Cleric Elthina. The Chantry doctrine specifically states that the Maker has turned his back on mankind and will only return when the world atones, yet she keeps saying she needn't do this or that because it will turn out as the Maker wills. That is directly opposed to her own organization's teachings.

[quote]However one cannot deny the fact that Anders is classified as non-devout and a heretic due to his actions against the religion itself[/quote]

In other words, you don't know the difference between religion, and an organized religion with specific interpretations of holy teachings.

[quote]2nd point: You see, you misunderstand that I'm only talking about the desire to have such characters, and I have no problem what happens in said games, such as dragon fights (or Varterrals, in Finn's case in Witch Hunt). I'm not mentioning game mechanics or boss fights at all. Its a non-issue and you're essentially arguing nothing by bringing it up and just blowing smoke for no reason.[/quote]

It's a non-issue because you say it's a non-issue? No. It's a game where your group takes near-suicidal risks on just about a daily basis, and you complained that there aren't enough risk adverse characters. That makes no sense. If they're risk adverse, they wouldn't want to be involved in the kind of mess. "So you want to help me on an expedition to the Deep Roads, a place where the greatest dwarven and warden warriors go to die, a place overrun by mindless monsters whose very blood is a lethal poison?" "Hmm. Okay. I don't usually like risky things, but that sounds safe." That's stupid.

[quote]And as for the Templar's argument you make... you see its a subjective opinion because I don't view the Templars as overly tyrannical[/quote]

Then you weren't paying attention to the story.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, as it comes down to one's opinion on humanity as a whole. And mine is pretty low.

Never a healthy thing.

You always have to risk making things worse when you have to fight to make things better. He made a calculated risk, and one that is paying off.

It was not calculated, we don't know if it's paying off. And if it is paying off, it's thanks to the efforts of others as they'll probably need to do something other than blowing stuff up, not him. They should get all the credit. He shouldn't get any. 

So it all falls on Anders' shoulders? He has to lay every brick on the road to freedom?

If he thinks he is qualified to make the first move and remove all chances of compromise, forcing a no turning back scenario, yes it's his responsibility to lay the foundations for freedom.

But no mage has heard of him so he lacks legitimacy. He has no leadership qualities. No sense of real vision. And he is mentally unstable, losing control if not already lost it, paranoid and quite idiotic for not taking advantage of Meredith's incompetence. So of coruse he wouldn't be able to fullfill that role. Hence, he should contend himself with either following someone moe qualified than him, or join a group, or run away. Better yet, he really really needs help. Mentally and otherwise. 

That said, I'm not in the least opposed to a good and qualified person taking an office if he happens to be a mage.

Neither am I in principle, but it won't happen anytime soon.

Tell that to Orzammar, whom they considered converting by force.

Considered, but did nothing yet. And probably won't.
Orzammar has been the same for thousands of years, no one dared to pressure them into anything. Except Tevinter, apparently they were so scared that they slaughtered elven refugees without Tevinter even telling them.

It can't be four different nations. Anyway, I distinctly recall reading somewhere in the game that the Chantry's templars comprise Thedas' largest army but I can't find it mentioned anywhere on the wiki, so... =/

Each one of them alone is more powerful than the Chantry and yea, I think you are misremembering.

I meant the refusal of the magi boon.

Because that's part of their jurisdiction and Alistair is going against that and until now, they didn't respond. It's been 6 years. And if they do respond, it's going to be via Orlais and probably not an Exalted March.

And by trying to give mages more rights, Hawke *is* starting a schism.

A very implicit and small one. I don't think giving mages a few more rights is  going to freak out most Chantry members. They'll be pissed, but I think they would be reasonable, and it's in their interest to be reasonable. If they are still allowed control over Lyrium and the Templars, but with an additional stipulation that allows the Kirkwall government to mediate the relationship, given how there was a severe lack of a mediator before that almost led to chaos.  

If Hawke allies with moderate mages and offers a hand in dealing with resolutionists (both diplomatically and by force), I think for the most part they will stfu and accept it.

Now extremists within the Chantry would probably want a war yes. And if they use Anders for instance, they might get it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

You left out Merrill and Marethari. Also Emile de Launcet. And Evelina, before her being cornered turns her into an abomination. And Alain.

Merrill is not that reasonable to me and could end up responsable for the entire slaughter of her clan.
Marethari is not reasonable either.
Emile is ridiculous.
I don't even remember Evelina, which probably means she wasn't active, so meh.
Same with Alain. The guy with Grace?

[IanPolaris]

PureMethodActor wrote...

1st point: Anders is classified as a heretic because he openly defies The specific religion of the Andrastian Chantry in DA2. He is breaking their rules and therefore is NOT a devout Andrastian. Throwing the word back at ya: Deal
The only point you could counter-argue against mine is that we're both talking about subjective opinions and that we don't know if the religion itself is right, which is what I said with that part you quoted.. However one cannot deny the fact that Anders is classified as non-devout and a heretic due to his actions against the religion itself

Actually you're both right.  Anders IS a heretic (so is Lellianna fwiw) but he's also a devout Andrastian.  The first is a legal term, the second is a statement of personal faith.  In the first case Anders (and Lellianna) hold beliefs that are contrary to the approved teachings of the Divine (Pope IRL) and have been judged to be in error.  If they were formal members of the clergy (which neither are), they could be made to recant or forfeit all legal rights to being a member/ordained member of said religion.  That's the legal aspect of "Heresy" and it gets lost in the shadow of the Roman and Spanish Inquisitions of the 16th and 17th centuries.

However, Anders (and Lellianna) both clearly believe in the Maker and his prophet Andraste and hold the basic tenents of faith that clearly make them Andrastian., and hold them deeply and sincerely.  That makes them both devout.

Martin Luther was a Devout Catholic.  He was also a Heretic.

-Polaris

[Fukairi]

I love how I spent over half of the game killing murdering EEVILL blood mages /abominations but still when the end came in my first game I didn't even waver "Yeah meredith is evil, bff orsino "
Actually, I liked meredith more since her sould edging maddness was a lot more convincing than Orsino's

"I'm fighting against MORTAL HUMANS with a bunch of people who have killed a high dragon, two ancient demons, dozens of not-so-ancient pride demons... THINGS COULDN'T BE WORSE I THINK I'LL JUST MERGE MYSELF WITH ALL THESE BODIES LYING ABOUT even if no one died during the fight, krhmn. Oh btw I also helped Quentin kill your momma Teehee"


Yeah, way to show some support to Da Champion Orsino >->

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
However, Anders (and Lellianna) both clearly believe in the Maker and his prophet Andraste and hold the basic tenents of faith that clearly make them Andrastian., and hold them deeply and sincerely.  That makes them both devout.

-Polaris

If Anders starts believing that Andraste is a mage and not the bride of the Maker, that makes him heretical in faith like the Tevinters, from the perspective of "white" Andrastrians.

[IanPolaris]

Fukairi wrote...

I love how I spent over half of the game killing murdering EEVILL blood mages /abominations but still when the end came in my first game I didn't even waver "Yeah meredith is evil, bff orsino <3"
Actually, I liked meredith more since her sould edging maddness was a lot more convincing than Orsino's

"I'm fighting against MORTAL HUMANS with a bunch of people who have killed a high dragon, two ancient demons, dozens of not-so-ancient pride demons... THINGS COULDN'T BE WORSE I THINK I'LL JUST MERGE MYSELF WITH ALL THESE BODIES LYING ABOUT even if no one died during the fight, krhmn. Oh btw I also helped Quentin kill your momma Teehee"


Yeah, way to show some support to Da Champion Orsino >->

It's Bioware's way of calling you stupid and a chump for siding with the Evvviiiiil mages, and how dare you not realize all mage were equal after we spend the last act and a half showing you only evil mages.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
However, Anders (and Lellianna) both clearly believe in the Maker and his prophet Andraste and hold the basic tenents of faith that clearly make them Andrastian., and hold them deeply and sincerely.  That makes them both devout.

-Polaris

If Anders starts believing that Andraste is a mage and not the bride of the Maker, that makes him heretical in faith like the Tevinters, from the perspective of "white" Andrastrians.

Andraste could be a mage and still bride of the maker technically, and I don't recall Anders ever stating that he believed in that particular heresy anyway.  My only real point is that "Heretic" is a legal term and has little to do with how devout you are in your religious beliefs.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

the point about the Templars being the largest army, I think that was mentioned somewhere. So Rifneno may be right.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the point about the Templars being the largest army, I think that was mentioned somewhere. So Rifneno may be right.

I highly doubt that and I do not recall it being mentionned anywhere. What was mentionned is that the Templars had the largest force in Kirkwall after their coup.

I very much doubt that they alone have a larger army than Orlais, Nevarra or Tevinter.

[TEWR]

hmmm.... well nevertheless I seem to recall it being mentioned. The closest I can find is on the Dragon Age wiki where it states that they are indeed an army.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That doesn't make them the strongest army. I think you are misremembering too.
No codex or wiki page mentions.

[TEWR]

well, they're definitely an army.

But without anything else that proves they are the strongest army in Thedas, they're just an army.

[Nameless2345]

About heresy: looking at Christianity, we have three major and quite different branches: catholic, protestant (can be divided further) and orthodox. Followers of any of them consider himself Christians.
Saying that Anders cannot be an Andrastian because he disagrees in some issues with Orlesian Chantry is similar to claiming that Luther was not Christian because he had issues with corrupt Roman Church. 

Anders can be called a heretic for his final act. Not so sure about his pro-mage position though. Unless there is some piece of lore saying otherwise believing that mages should be free from the Circles and Chantry doesn't necessarily constitute a heresy: in every religion there is a certain freedom in interpretations. 

Modifié par Nameless2345, 16 mai 2011 - 04:27 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Writer redux
Something I've never disputed.

And the reason why they've become the strongest force in Kirkwall (something that we are told is a unique case), is because they toppled an *unpopular* regime.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mai 2011 - 04:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nameless2345 wrote...

About heresy: looking at Christianity, we have three major and quite different branches: catholic, protestant (can be divided further) and orthodox. Followers of any of them consider himself Christians.
Saying that Anders cannot be an Andrastian because he disagrees in some issues with Orlesian Chantry is similar to claiming that Luther was not Christian because he had issues with corrupt Roman Church.

That's in the present. In the past, Catholics considered the other two as heretics. And considered many others as heretics and wiped them out. Like the Arians.

Like Ian said, it's the legal definition of heresy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mai 2011 - 04:22 .

[Wulfram]

Heretics would tend to be rather more devout than normal believers, I'd have thought. It takes more commitment to be willing to go against the prevailing view than to simply to follow the crowd.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the point about the Templars being the largest army, I think that was mentioned somewhere. So Rifneno may be right.

Templars have the largest army in Kirkwall (which is what you may be remembering).  Also the Templars for the nucleus about which the other armies in an Exalted March are organized, but it's always been my understanding that the total number of templars was dwarfed by the actual secular armies except in rare cases (Kirkwall being one).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nameless2345 wrote...

About heresy: looking at Christianity, we have three major and quite different branches: catholic, protestant (can be divided further) and orthodox. Followers of any of them consider himself Christians.
Saying that Anders cannot be an Andrastian because he disagrees in some issues with Orlesian Chantry is similar to claiming that Luther was not Christian because he had issues with corrupt Roman Church.

That's in the present. In the past, Catholics considered the other two as heretics. And considered many others as heretics and wiped them out. Like the Arians.

Like Ian said, it's the legal definition of heresy.

Not just the past, KoP.  The RCC still regards Protestants and Orothodox Christians as Heretics, but these days it's a legal thing that involves the right to join the clergy and take sacrements.  It has no civil legal meaning any longer.  The modern RCC position on heresy is that "It's sad, but until a member of the flock admits and renounces error, they sadly are no longer a member of the flock."  That's pretty much it.

-Polaris

[Fukairi]

IanPolaris wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

I love how I spent over half of the game killing murdering EEVILL blood mages /abominations but still when the end came in my first game I didn't even waver "Yeah meredith is evil, bff orsino <3"
Actually, I liked meredith more since her sould edging maddness was a lot more convincing than Orsino's

"I'm fighting against MORTAL HUMANS with a bunch of people who have killed a high dragon, two ancient demons, dozens of not-so-ancient pride demons... THINGS COULDN'T BE WORSE I THINK I'LL JUST MERGE MYSELF WITH ALL THESE BODIES LYING ABOUT even if no one died during the fight, krhmn. Oh btw I also helped Quentin kill your momma Teehee"


Yeah, way to show some support to Da Champion Orsino >->

It's Bioware's way of calling you stupid and a chump for siding with the Evvviiiiil mages, and how dare you not realize all mage were equal after we spend the last act and a half showing you only evil mages.

-Polaris

That must be true, They all turn to blood magic if given the opportunity (knife/sharp object). I've never seen a mage holding a knife and using it for greater good, say buttering a toast, it is always to slit your wrists for EEEEVILL.

So, I probably should've paid more attention to biowares carefull hints and cutscenes : (

[IanPolaris]

Fukairi wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

I love how I spent over half of the game killing murdering EEVILL blood mages /abominations but still when the end came in my first game I didn't even waver "Yeah meredith is evil, bff orsino <3"
Actually, I liked meredith more since her sould edging maddness was a lot more convincing than Orsino's

"I'm fighting against MORTAL HUMANS with a bunch of people who have killed a high dragon, two ancient demons, dozens of not-so-ancient pride demons... THINGS COULDN'T BE WORSE I THINK I'LL JUST MERGE MYSELF WITH ALL THESE BODIES LYING ABOUT even if no one died during the fight, krhmn. Oh btw I also helped Quentin kill your momma Teehee"


Yeah, way to show some support to Da Champion Orsino >->

It's Bioware's way of calling you stupid and a chump for siding with the Evvviiiiil mages, and how dare you not realize all mage were equal after we spend the last act and a half showing you only evil mages.

-Polaris

That must be true, They all turn to blood magic if given the opportunity (knife/sharp object). I've never seen a mage holding a knife and using it for greater good, say buttering a toast, it is always to slit your wrists for EEEEVILL.

So, I probably should've paid more attention to biowares carefull hints and cutscenes : (

Pretty much...oh and removed any notion that mages could be good and decent people from DAO.  Obviously the first Dragon Age was Revolutionary Tevinter Propaganda.

-Polaris

[Fukairi]

IanPolaris wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

I love how I spent over half of the game killing murdering EEVILL blood mages /abominations but still when the end came in my first game I didn't even waver "Yeah meredith is evil, bff orsino <3"
Actually, I liked meredith more since her sould edging maddness was a lot more convincing than Orsino's

"I'm fighting against MORTAL HUMANS with a bunch of people who have killed a high dragon, two ancient demons, dozens of not-so-ancient pride demons... THINGS COULDN'T BE WORSE I THINK I'LL JUST MERGE MYSELF WITH ALL THESE BODIES LYING ABOUT even if no one died during the fight, krhmn. Oh btw I also helped Quentin kill your momma Teehee"


Yeah, way to show some support to Da Champion Orsino >->

It's Bioware's way of calling you stupid and a chump for siding with the Evvviiiiil mages, and how dare you not realize all mage were equal after we spend the last act and a half showing you only evil mages.

-Polaris

That must be true, They all turn to blood magic if given the opportunity (knife/sharp object). I've never seen a mage holding a knife and using it for greater good, say buttering a toast, it is always to slit your wrists for EEEEVILL.

So, I probably should've paid more attention to biowares carefull hints and cutscenes : (

Pretty much...oh and removed any notion that mages could be good and decent people from DAO.  Obviously the first Dragon Age was Revolutionary Tevinter Propaganda.

-Polaris

Or maybe we get to see Wynne/other nice mages as adversaries in DA3 since they are pure eeeevvvvill.
I refuse to accept my Warden was part of any  eeevvvil propaganda, he was not a mage after all!

[IanPolaris]

Fukairi wrote...

Or maybe we get to see Wynne/other nice mages as adversaries in DA3 since they are pure eeeevvvvill.
I refuse to accept my Warden was part of any  eeevvvil propaganda, he was not a mage after all!

Of course not.  What you didn't know is that your warden, King Alistair and all those nice people in Fereldan were all mind-controlled by bloodmagic the whole time, and you just didn't know it...and only Lelianna managed to break free.

Yes, I am being tongue-in-cheek, but only just.  I really do think that DG is going to pull some kind of lame stunt like this with Fereldan to further smear mages if given half the chance.

-Polaris