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[IanPolaris]

RangerSG wrote...

I've always seen the Dalish as not nearly as innocent as many here make them out to be. I don't know whether they or Orlais *started* the war, but I'm fairly certain the Dalish took way too much pleasure in prosecuting it and drew the Exalted March as a result. Sacking Val Roy was hardly necessary to defend their home. One might also note the werewolf curse in DA:O. The Dalish are just as much well-intentioned extremists as your average Templar. When you get down to it, paranoia and distrust are pretty much standard MOs in Thedas.

Let's make no mistake.  I'm not going to suggest the Dalish are as pure as the Driven snow.  It think the Dalish DID sit on their hands and had the attitude of "let them rot" during the second blight.  I also think the Dalish probably did take extreme pleasure at killing humans and razing human lands (hate is generally returned with hate after all).

However, at no time do the records even suggest that Orlais TRIED to make peace with the Dalish.  Had Orlais tried and failed, I'd feel differenently, but the record suggest that Orlais went screaming for help and got a complaint Chantry to haul it's chestnuts out of the fire, and furthermore, I think the chantry/Orlais (probably acting in concert) tried to systematically destroy ALL elves and elven culture in pure hatred and revenge.

That doesn't bode well for the Chantry or the Chantry's version of things especially given the Chantry had to rewrite it's own holy text to justify the war in the first place.

-Polaris

Edit:  The Werewolf curse was the work of ONE keeper and it was denounced by Merethari (and presumably the other Dalish Keepers) when the secret got out.  Even the Dalish themselves admit (confrontation in Becilian forest afterwards) that the Keeper and his tribe were at fault.  I've never seen Orlais even begin to admit they were at fault at anything.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 mai 2011 - 04:38 .

[Lewie]

Rifneno wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Oh that.  That's when Fenris offers to kill Jarvaris for bothering the Arishok and the Arishok contemptously says that his blood isn't worth getting on your blades or something like that.

-Polaris

Ugh. I never even recruit that knife-ear scum anymore.

Bash him for his personality traits, don't bash him for being an elf.

Why not?  85% of the time I talk to an elf I get called a shemlen (which is ironic since, having lost their immortality, so are they).  Geez, you can't even pick on a fictional race anymore... =/

Bash Fenris, he's a knife ear, bash merril shes a knife ear, whats the difference. Oh.. point scoring. Sorry, just trying to keep up.

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

Bash Fenris, he's a knife ear, bash merril shes a knife ear, whats the difference. Oh.. point scoring. Sorry, just trying to keep up.

I think it's wrong to call either "knife ear" and (as best I can because of the wonky dialog wheel) I don't.  Just because I disagree with one or both doesn't excuse racism towards one or both.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

So society is now at a point where it's wrong to make an insult about a fictional race of whom the great majority of its members openly embrace racism towards your own real race. Fantastic. Are we still allowed to say darkspawn are bad, or do we have to give them all a goddamn personality test just in case?

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

So society is now at a point where it's wrong to make an insult about a fictional race of whom the great majority of its members openly embrace racism towards your own real race. Fantastic. Are we still allowed to say darkspawn are bad, or do we have to give them all a goddamn personality test just in case?

I will not speak for society in general.  I think it's generally wrong to use deliberately insulting racial epithets towards anyone or any race, real or fictional.  That's just my personal opinion on the matter.

-Polaris

[HSHAW]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

So society is now at a point where it's wrong to make an insult about a fictional race of whom the great majority of its members openly embrace racism towards your own real race. Fantastic. Are we still allowed to say darkspawn are bad, or do we have to give them all a goddamn personality test just in case?

I will not speak for society in general.  I think it's generally wrong to use deliberately insulting racial epithets towards anyone or any race, real or fictional.  That's just my personal opinion on the matter.

-Polaris

This.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

So society is now at a point where it's wrong to make an insult about a fictional race of whom the great majority of its members openly embrace racism towards your own real race. Fantastic. Are we still allowed to say darkspawn are bad, or do we have to give them all a goddamn personality test just in case?

Well, it's not wrong as such, but why is it wronger to be uncomfortable with it?

[Deztyn]

Polaris,

1) .... Orlais 'reputation' starts after the Fall of the Dales. That war happens before any of the others. Before Nevarra, before the schism with the Tevinter Chantry, before Fereldan. You're arguing a pattern of behavior that didn't even exist yet is proof of Orlais wrong.

2)The Dalish ignoring the Blight indicates they already had the "Screw you, Shems" attitude that leads me to believe they would attack human villages if it suited them.

3) We can't hop down to the local library and research the events of Red Crossing, we're limited by the information the developers have chosen to give us. What we have been given at least proves that the Exalted March wasn't unprovoked.

4) The Origins Codex entry for the Dalish describes an unprovoked attack on a human caravan. So yes, they do that.

5) I never said the occupation of Nevarra was a good thing, or that Orlais would be loved by the people there. Merely that the two situations were different. (and again, Nevarra is a hundred years after the fall of the Dales.)

Modifié par Deztyn, 17 mai 2011 - 05:37 .

[TEWR]

Deztyn wrote...

Plaintiff,

It was Red Crossing. But otherwise it's what Polaris said. Minus the certainty that Orlais started it.


Polaris,

I'd say the modern Dalish have quite the history of unprovoked attacks -- when they think they can get away with it. Perhaps the Dalish saw Orlais as weakened by the Blight, and thought "Hey! Let's get rid of these pesky Shemlen neighbors." We don't know what their motive might have been, that doesn't mean they didn't have one.

Nevarra was occupied during the Blight, Orlais just decided not to leave. That's a bit different from the situation with the Dales. So I'm not sure how the occupation of Nevarra (which happened a hundred years after the Fall of the Dales) proves that Orlais was entirely in the wrong.

why would the Dalish attack the humans that gave them back land that Tevinter stole from them?

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
why would the Dalish attack the humans that gave them back land that Tevinter stole from them?

Why would they let the humans that gave them land all die fighting the Blight?

It's a few hundred years later.

Attitudes change.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

So society is now at a point where it's wrong to make an insult about a fictional race of whom the great majority of its members openly embrace racism towards your own real race. Fantastic. Are we still allowed to say darkspawn are bad, or do we have to give them all a goddamn personality test just in case?

I will not speak for society in general.  I think it's generally wrong to use deliberately insulting racial epithets towards anyone or any race, real or fictional.  That's just my personal opinion on the matter.

-Polaris

I don't think it's wrong, I think it's pathetic. As long as it's not serious (and even then, it best avoided).

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

why would the Dalish attack the humans that gave them back land that Tevinter stole from them?

Missionaries. I don't buy that either sides are victims. I think both are to blame.


In other news, maybe we'll be having mutants some time soon:
http://www.whatsonch...-his-chest.html

Ivan should be humanely studied.

EDIT: http://www.cbsnews.c...2-10391705.html

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[TEWR]

when did the Dalish receive their land? When did the 3rd 2nd Blight begin and end?

edit: oops, 2nd Blight. Not the 3rd.



@ KoP: It's Magneto!!! Run!!!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mai 2011 - 05:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

when did the Dalish receive their land? When did the 3rd Blight begin and end?



@ KoP: It's Magneto!!! Run!!!

Dales: From 1025 TE to 2:20 Glory - a period of nearly three centuries

3rd blight: The Old God Toth awakens in 3:10

And I am hoping Ivan is the future actually.

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

Polaris,

1) .... Orlais 'reputation' starts after the Fall of the Dales. That war happens before any of the others. Before Nevarra, before the schism with the Tevinter Chantry, before Fereldan. You're arguing a pattern of behavior that didn't even exist yet is proof of Orlais wrong.

In this case that's perfectly fair.  Orlais was and is an agressor nation and always has been.  There is no reasonable indication that Orlais prior to the fall of the Dales was much different in outlook or attitude than the Orlais afterwards.  As such, Orlais over the past 1000 years has an unfortunately pattern of behavior that makes me uninclined to give them the benefit of the doubt over the ENTIRE period.

2)The Dalish ignoring the Blight indicates they already had the "Screw you, Shems" attitude that leads me to believe they would attack human villages if it suited them.

Wrong.  Big difference between neutrality and hostility.  The Dalish have nothing to gain by trying to conquer a bunch of "Shems" that hate them.  Now if the Human villages settled IN DALISH TERRITORY or the Villagers molested Dalish (and missionaries count), then the Dalish are protecting their own territory and their own soveign rights.  If a human village is dumb enough to set up in Dalish Territory, by all Sovereign Rights of Nations, they are completely at the whim of whatever the Dalish want to do with them.  Too bad, so sad.

3) We can't hop down to the local library and research the events of Red Crossing, we're limited by the information the developers have chosen to give us. What we have been given at least proves that the Exalted March wasn't unprovoked.

Sure it was.  The Chantry didn't consider a war with Orlais justifcation enough for an Exalted March did they?  No.  However, they clearly considered the fact that Orlais would LOSE a war to be justification and I'd say that makes it unprovoked.

Now, had the Chantry or others tried to broker a peace and the Dalish rejected it, I might have a different viewpoint, but there is no indication that the Divine even considered a peaceful solution.

4) The Origins Codex entry for the Dalish describes an unprovoked attack on a human caravan. So yes, they do that.

Look at who wrote the codex.  Dalish don't do unprovoked attacks.  Those that do are punished severely by their own keepers (see Velanna).

5) I never said the occupation of Nevarra was a good thing, or that Orlais would be loved by the people there. Merely that the two situations were different. (and again, Nevarra is a hundred years after the fall of the Dales.)

It shows that Orlais has a habit of stabbing nations in the back especially just after blights.  For that matter Orlais seems gearing up to do that to Fereldan while Fereldan is still weak.

It's part of an Orlesan pattern of behavior that shows that Orlais can not be trusted nor their accounts.  {That's the problem with 'playing the game'....play it too much and no one believes or trusts anything you say.}

-Polaris

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

when did the Dalish receive their land? When did the 3rd Blight begin and end?



@ KoP: It's Magneto!!! Run!!!

Dales: From 1025 TE to 2:20 Glory - a period of nearly three centuries

3rd blight: The Old God Toth awakens in 3:10

And I am hoping Ivan is the future actually.

I made a typo. It's the 2nd Blight.

But do we know when the old treaties were signed where the elves promised to always lend aid in a Blight? Don't get me wrong I find the idea of remaining neutral during a Blight idiotic. So much so that I can't believe it actually happened.

[TEWR]

@Ian: I think Brother Genitivi is the person who gives a factual and not a biased report on things. In that particular codex he's saying what he was told, which might mean that the people who told him were lying their asses off.

and even if those were Dalish elves, I don't think Genitivi is the person who would persecute other races. He didn't to Mahariel, and he's had experiences with Dalish before.

It's also possible that those were bandit elves. We've seen elves before who have resorted to such measures. Apostates and bandits alike. Tattoos on elves and arrows isn't enough conclusive proof.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mai 2011 - 06:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I made a typo. It's the 2nd Blight.

But do we know when the old treaties were signed where the elves promised to always lend aid in a Blight? Don't get me wrong I find the idea of remaining neutral during a Blight idiotic. So much so that I can't believe it actually happened.

1:5 - 1:95 Divine

Their inaction  and indifference to a Blight reeks of arrogance and foolishness. With that kind of attitude, no wonder they are getting extinct.

Eh well, as far as I am concerned, elves are ancient history the moment Tevinter sunk Arlathan.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mai 2011 - 06:06 .

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Ian: I think Brother Genitivi is the person who gives a factual and not a biased report on things. In that particular codex he's saying what he was told, which might mean that the people who told him were lying their asses off.

I think that's very likely.  Human villagers tend to hate and fear the Dalish, but every time during the game we find it's the humans that either started the conflict or provoked it.  EVERY Time....including the werewolf curse.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Ian: I think Brother Genitivi is the person who gives a factual and not a biased report on things. In that particular codex he's saying what he was told, which might mean that the people who told him were lying their asses off.

I think that's very likely.  Human villagers tend to hate and fear the Dalish, but every time during the game we find it's the humans that either started the conflict or provoked it.  EVERY Time....including the werewolf curse.

-Polaris

Settlers always have problems with nomads and vice versa (as well as a cordial relationship, depending on the context) and it was never one side that "started " it, so I don't see why it should be any different here.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I made a typo. It's the 2nd Blight.

But do we know when the old treaties were signed where the elves promised to always lend aid in a Blight? Don't get me wrong I find the idea of remaining neutral during a Blight idiotic. So much so that I can't believe it actually happened.

1:5 - 1:95 Divine

Their inaction  and indifference to a Blight reeks of arrogance and foolishness. With that kind of attitude, no wonder they are getting extinct.

Eh well, as far as I am concerned, elves are ancient history the moment Tevinter sunk Arlathan.

I think the Treaties were signed after the second blight (in part because the Dales sat it out among others).

Don't get me wrong, KoP.  I am no fan of the Dalish.  I think the Elves are doomed and I am on record of predicting that within 500 years or so, there won't be any meaningful number of elves in Thedas.  I also think the Dalish are in a lot of ways provincial, and reactionary to the point of foolishness (Merethari is a great example) and spend too much time looking back and not enough time dealing with the future and the implications of mixed breeding means.

[If the Dalish were smart, they'd CONCEDE the fact that elves as a race are doomed, while doing their utmost to preserve and expand Dalish heritage and culture via Elf-Blooded humans....but nooooooo......]

-Polaris

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I made a typo. It's the 2nd Blight.

But do we know when the old treaties were signed where the elves promised to always lend aid in a Blight? Don't get me wrong I find the idea of remaining neutral during a Blight idiotic. So much so that I can't believe it actually happened.

1:5 - 1:95 Divine

Their inaction  and indifference to a Blight reeks of arrogance and foolishness. With that kind of attitude, no wonder they are getting extinct.

Eh well, as far as I am concerned, elves are ancient history the moment Tevinter sunk Arlathan.

Personally I can't see the elves remaining neutral. If the Blight was destroying Orlais it would eventually reach the Dales. I just can't see them remaining neutral for so long.

I think it's another Orlesian trick. I don't trust Orlais one bit.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
I think the Treaties were signed after the second blight (in part because the Dales sat it out among others).

The Dalish sitting it out is even more idiotic.
If we look at the map of Thedas, we see that Montsimmard, that was besieged and massacred by the darkspawn, is right next to the Dales. How could they possibly think that ignoring the blight was a smart idea? What if the hated Shemlen were defeated, did they honestly think they can handle it alone?

[If the Dalish were smart, they'd CONCEDE the fact that elves as a race are doomed, while doing their utmost to preserve and expand Dalish heritage and culture via Elf-Blooded humans....but nooooooo......]

-Polaris

I think this was shown with Velanna. They are obsessed with recovering ancient history (and I personally think that for any people to so easily lose their culture, language and religion is really a mark of a weak civilization in the first place that only thrived when there was no one else in Thedas to challenge them). But they never think of making new history. 

Like you said, they look back and not forward. And they are doomed to fail in large part because of their regressionist attitude.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mai 2011 - 06:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Personally I can't see the elves remaining neutral. If the Blight was destroying Orlais it would eventually reach the Dales. I just can't see them remaining neutral for so long.

I think it's another Orlesian trick. I don't trust Orlais one bit.

Even Loghain is not that paranoid, sorry.

I think it's an undisputed fact and really, seeing Elven arrogance and idiocy before, I am not in the least surprised.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Settlers always have problems with nomads and vice versa (as well as a cordial relationship, depending on the context) and it was never one side that "started " it, so I don't see why it should be any different here.

In the case of the werewolf curse, even the werewolves (descendants of the humans) and the Lady of the Forest (who was there after all) agree that the humans started it and Zathrien's revenge was in fact justified.  Their complaint is that Zatherian went too far and punished those that weren't guilty...and wouldn't stop to talk long enough to even consider this point.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

You do need to learn from the past however, and in part they should focus solely on recovering ancient elven technology like the Eluvian. They have their gods and they have a few stories. It's time to make new stories.

I feel that it's hard to look forward in this particular scenario