4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

1) .... Orlais 'reputation' starts after the Fall of the Dales. That war happens before any of the others. Before Nevarra, before the schism with the Tevinter Chantry, before Fereldan. You're arguing a pattern of behavior that didn't even exist yet is proof of Orlais wrong.

To be fair, wouldn't you raise an eyebrow if it came to light recently that OJ Simpson's high school sweetheart mysteriously disappeared after they had a fight 30 years ago?

Eh. But your talking about a culture that exists for over a thousand years, it seems a bit bizarre to me to assume they've had the same expansionist attitude for the entire time. They'd have to be the most stagnant society in the history of ever if they kept the same attitudes for the entire 1,000 year period. (And if they did they are Fail. More fail than anyone who ever lived in Kirkwall. Aside from the Dales and the foundation of the empire, in a thousand years their longest successful conquest was Fereldan? Fail. )

4) The Origins Codex entry for the Dalish describes an unprovoked attack on a human caravan. So yes, they do that.

The Dalish Origin starts with the PC holding a bow on some poor sap who made the mistake of wandering into Dalish territory. And since the Dalish are nomadic and Thedas has yet to found MapQuest, that's not exactly a mistake so much as bad luck. Oh, and Tamlen right by you wants to kill him for no more reason than "being a shem." And this is the introduction for the frickin' hero! The Dalish are innocent like the dwarves are tall.

I wasn't going to mention that because it would just be "Well Tamlen (and the Warden) are bad Dalish." But yeah, the Dalish aren't exactly fond of humans.

Deztyn wrote...

.... I think that if Orlais has truly been imperialistic (rather than opportunistic) for 1,000 years they win the Thedas Incompetency Award.

They call their leader an Emperor/Empress, so it's a pretty safe bet. Kirkwall's a lock on the Thedas Incompetency Award though.

1,000 years. That's a whole lot of fail.

Modifié par Deztyn, 17 mai 2011 - 09:49 .

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

The thing is, I've seen him get on other people's cases for misusing words quite a few times.  I think a double digit percentage of his posts I've read talk about how people misuse "cliffhanger" or "plot hole."  So I think it's fair to hold him to the same standard with misusing the word "innocent."  And again, I think it's poor...  I don't know, professionalism I guess, for him to get involved in that kind of debate to begin with.  There's tons of chatting going on around here.  He doesn't clarify questions asked a hundred times like "was Orsino really a harvester, or was it a model recycle?" but he gets into debates about the morality of the Circle situation?  On multiple occasions?  No, I don't think it's some grand conspiracy.  I just think it's a writer unwilling to accept the truth that he failed his goal to portray a morally grey area and is getting into pissing contests with people that recogize such in a doomed effort to correct his failure.

Oh, definitely.  I haven't seen that.  But Gaider definitely needs to be taken to task if this is the case. 

Modifié par Silfren, 17 mai 2011 - 09:53 .

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...
 He doesn't clarify questions asked a hundred times like "was Orsino really a harvester, or was it a model recycle?" but he gets into debates about the morality of the Circle situation?  On multiple occasions?  No, I don't think it's some grand conspiracy.  I just think it's a writer unwilling to accept the truth that he failed his goal to portray a morally grey area and is getting into pissing contests with people that recogize such in a doomed effort to correct his failure.

. . . I think it's more to do with a certain poster's tendency to repeatedly call him out, accuse him of lying and creating 'ass-pulls' that contradict lore that was never established to begin with and otherwise insult his personal morals and integrity than it does a desire to smack down the mage fans who don't get his vision. But that's just my opinion.

Modifié par Deztyn, 17 mai 2011 - 10:03 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All they really have to do is spit on a faith that they and their ancestors were forced to believe in after being conquered and return to the true culture of their ancestors.


I think that's what you meant to say.

Pretty much everyone's faith is something that at least some of thier ancestors were forced into converting to.

The faith of their distant ancestors is irrelevent.  Nowadays, they are Andrasteans, as were their fathers and grandfathers.  Abandoning that faith merely for the prospect of a better life would be cowardly and contemptible.

Though I also don't think that them joining the Dalish en masse would work, anyway.  Incorporating a few new members into the clan is one thing, but there's a practical limit to the size of a clan, and city elves would be pretty much without any useful skills when they joined.

I don't think we've ever been given information on how many elves were allowed in one clan, save for 1 Keeper and 1 First.


Also, IIRC, Native Americans were allowed to believe in whatever they wanted. So it's not "everyone's faith" so much as it is "everyone's faith in these current times". And even then, not everyone chooses to believe what they are told to. People believe what they agree with/like more. It's hardly cowardly to embrace the religion of your ancestors just because you now worship a different faith.

Re: the bolded portion.  Yeah, um, NO.  Not by a long shot.  

"NO" as in pre-European conquest that resulted in genocide or post? Because I'm saying IIRC regarding pre.


I know tribes warred with each other, but that's about it. I don't know though if belief was a factor in those.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mai 2011 - 10:16 .

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
 He doesn't clarify questions asked a hundred times like "was Orsino really a harvester, or was it a model recycle?" but he gets into debates about the morality of the Circle situation?  On multiple occasions?  No, I don't think it's some grand conspiracy.  I just think it's a writer unwilling to accept the truth that he failed his goal to portray a morally grey area and is getting into pissing contests with people that recogize such in a doomed effort to correct his failure.

. . . I think it's more to do with a certain poster's tendency to repeatedly call him out, accuse him of lying and creating 'ass-pulls' that contradict lore that was never established to begin with and otherwise insult his personal morals and integrity than it does a desire to smack down the mage fans who don't get his vision. But that's just my opinion.

I think one of the big holes in the "mages are walking time bombs" theory is that when you play a mage there's nothing to indicate such.  Origins showed us that mages could go bad, but that it could be dealt with and that a number of mages managed to keep themselves under control just fine.

You get to DA2 and now there's a divided ending and the devs want killing all the mages to be a viable choice for the player.  We see a bunch of dangerous mages, but I never got the feeling it was because they were plagued by demons as much as they were pushed by the Templars into the arms of the demons.

Even one good ambush quest for mageHawke (or one of the party mages) to show that the demons really are lurking could have made that whole angle far more believable than hundreds of brutalized mages turning to whatever means they had available in defense of their lives.

As it is, I never feel like I'm protecting the general population from the mages by supporting the Templars.  I feel like I'm supporting a system which allows the Templars to brutalize (emotionally and physically) the mages until they become the danger we're supposed to be protecting against.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

I think one of the big holes in the "mages are walking time bombs" theory is that when you play a mage there's nothing to indicate such.  Origins showed us that mages could go bad, but that it could be dealt with and that a number of mages managed to keep themselves under control just fine.

You get to DA2 and now there's a divided ending and the devs want killing all the mages to be a viable choice for the player.  We see a bunch of dangerous mages, but I never got the feeling it was because they were plagued by demons as much as they were pushed by the Templars into the arms of the demons.

Even one good ambush quest for mageHawke (or one of the party mages) to show that the demons really are lurking could have made that whole angle far more believable than hundreds of brutalized mages turning to whatever means they had available in defense of their lives.

As it is, I never feel like I'm protecting the general population from the mages by supporting the Templars.  I feel like I'm supporting a system which allows the Templars to brutalize (emotionally and physically) the mages until they become the danger we're supposed to be protecting against.

This is pretty much how I feel and why it boggles my mind that people express finding it difficult to side with the mages because of the rampant blood magic.  I see a distinct moral difference between turning to blood magic and demons out of a desire to dominate others for the sake of power a la New Tevinter, and doing so out of desperation.  Tarohne fits the former description, but I think most of the mages either clearly fit the latter, or else there's just enough ambiguity to leave their motivation open to interpretation.  The whole idea seems to hinge on the presence of blood magic retro-justifying Meredith's paranoia, but the only way that works is if you accept the premise that using blood magic or resorting to demon assistance is evil by default and not excusable under any circumstance whatsoever, and that way lies the whole "you always have a choice not to do evil no matter what" argument that strays into victim-blaming...which is just something I can't get behind. 

[Rifneno]

Deztyn wrote...

1,000 years. That's a whole lot of fail.

If DA2 taught us anything, it's that people in Thedas are full of fail. No one wins, they only top more catastrophic failures.

Deztyn wrote...

. . . I think it's more to do with a certain poster's tendency to repeatedly call him out, accuse him of lying and creating 'ass-pulls' that contradict lore that was never established to begin with and otherwise insult his personal morals and integrity than it does a desire to smack down the mage fans who don't get his vision. But that's just my opinion.

Kind of a chicken/egg thing. If he wasn't getting into the pissing contests, then there'd be nothing to accuse of ass-pulling and lying.

GavrielKay wrote...

You get to DA2 and now there's a divided ending and the devs want killing all the mages to be a viable choice for the player.  We see a bunch of dangerous mages, but I never got the feeling it was because they were plagued by demons as much as they were pushed by the Templars into the arms of the demons.

"Ser Alrik's a sadist. He likes to experiment on mages. See what it takes to push them into the arms of demons."

Wait, I forgot, Anders blew up a building years later which retroactively proves everything he ever said was a lie. NM.

As it is, I never feel like I'm protecting the general population from the mages by supporting the Templars.  I feel like I'm supporting a system which allows the Templars to brutalize (emotionally and physically) the mages until they become the danger we're supposed to be protecting against.

Don't forget sexually!

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

The whole idea seems to hinge on the presence of blood magic retro-justifying Meredith's paranoia, but the only way that works is if you accept the premise that using blood magic or resorting to demon assistance is evil by default and not excusable under any circumstance whatsoever, and that way lies the whole "you always have a choice not to do evil no matter what" argument that strays into victim-blaming...which is just something I can't get behind. 

Exactly.

It may be a noble thought that the mages should meekly submit to the knife because Meredith says so, but it isn't something I would do.  Blood magic may give you power to fight back.  Demons will kill your mind just as surely as a Templar sword, but at least it's a form of revenge.  I don't like that it comes to that, but I can understand it.

The Templar ending fails for me for two big reasons:

1) When you play a mage there's nothing to indicate constant needling by demons of all sorts just waiting to use your body to wreak havoc.  Give me one ambush quest and that part of the storyline might come to life.  I don't feel what the populace supposedly feels about mages being a danger just by being alive.

2)  You have to take Meredith's word that the Right of Annulment is absolutely necessary to protect Kirkwall and satisfy the blood lust of the population.  I don't trust that mage hating zealot even before finding out she's under the influence of the idol.

Edit:  typos

Modifié par GavrielKay, 17 mai 2011 - 11:02 .

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Exactly.

It may be a noble thought that the mages should meekly submit to the knife because Meredith says so, but it isn't something I would do.  Blood magic may give you power to fight back.  Demons will kill your mind just as surely as a Templar sword, but at least it's a form of revenge.  I don't like that it comes to that, but I can understand it.

The Templar ending fails for me for two big reasons:

1) When you play a mage there's nothing to indicate constant needling by demons of all sorts just waiting to use your body to wreak havoc.  Give me one ambush quest and that part of the storyline might come to life.  I don't feel what the populace supposedly feels about mages being a danger just by being alive.

2)  You have to take Meredith's word that the Right of Annulment is absolutely necessary to protect Kirkwall and satisfy the blood lust of the population.  I don't trust that mage hating zealot even before finding out she's under the influence of the idol.

Edit:  typos

I seriously just cannot understand how people think retro-justification works. When I debate things, I make a conscious effort to try and see it from the other person's point of view and actively question my own viewpoints rather than only try to defend them as is our first instinct. Usually, while I disagree with someone's opinion on the matter, I can understand where they're coming from. This I just do not get. "The mages were trying to overthrow Meredith in Act III!" Of course they were! So were half her own templars! It's like saying "Bob is a violent madman" because Bob punched an armed robber in the windpipe. It just... no. Just plain no.

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

I seriously just cannot understand how people think retro-justification works. When I debate things, I make a conscious effort to try and see it from the other person's point of view and actively question my own viewpoints rather than only try to defend them as is our first instinct. Usually, while I disagree with someone's opinion on the matter, I can understand where they're coming from. This I just do not get. "The mages were trying to overthrow Meredith in Act III!" Of course they were! So were half her own templars! It's like saying "Bob is a violent madman" because Bob punched an armed robber in the windpipe. It just... no. Just plain no.

Yeah, how dare the viciously abused mages do anything to protect themselves.

The biggest "wow, I didn't know that" moment I've gotten from this thread is that there are people who think it's ok to lock someone up who hasn't done wrong because someday they might do something wrong.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Yeah, how dare the viciously abused mages do anything to protect themselves.

The biggest "wow, I didn't know that" moment I've gotten from this thread is that there are people who think it's ok to lock someone up who hasn't done wrong because someday they might do something wrong.

My biggest surprise was that there are people who think the Circle should be slaughtered because of Quentin.

[Deztyn]

GavrielKay wrote...

I think one of the big holes in the "mages are walking time bombs" theory is that when you play a mage there's nothing to indicate such.

This I agree with. I understand they can't make a game catered to one of the three classes but a few lines of dialogue that indicate Hawke has dealt with the temptation would be nice. (And an actual scene and the possibility of a nonstandard game over would be even nicer. Maybe an extra 'bonus' for mage Hawkes who stupidly accept deals from demons. :innocent:)

Origins showed us that mages could go bad, but that it could be dealt with and that a number of mages managed to keep themselves under control just fine.

You get to DA2 and now there's a divided ending and the devs want killing all the mages to be a viable choice for the player.  We see a bunch of dangerous mages, but I never got the feeling it was because they were plagued by demons as much as they were pushed by the Templars into the arms of the demons.

Even one good ambush quest for mageHawke (or one of the party mages) to show that the demons really are lurking could have made that whole angle far more believable than hundreds of brutalized mages turning to whatever means they had available in defense of their lives.

As it is, I never feel like I'm protecting the general population from the mages by supporting the Templars.  I feel like I'm supporting a system which allows the Templars to brutalize (emotionally and physically) the mages until they become the danger we're supposed to be protecting against.

I never understand this view, to be honest.

Origins had Connor, the biggest example of what can go wrong with a mage who is weakwilled or untrained. That the Warden can protect the Village and save him from the demon doesn't change what he was capable of doing and how much damage he already caused. All because a demon preyed on his desire to help his sick father.

For all of DA2's flaws we actually have a wide spectrum of motivations for the 'bad' mages.

Danarius and Hadriana are products of their culture.
Idunna and Tarohne are power hungry.
Quentin was just psycho.
Gascard wanted knowledge.
Orsino's initial interest in blood magic and necromancy doesn't seem to be motivated by hatred of the Templars, and we have reason to believe he ignored how Quentin was doing his research.
Feynriel, Olivia, Evelina and Amelia were/are good people who were just out of control and preyed on by demons.
Decimus and Grace are the only examples of villainous mages we can truly say were 'pushed by the templars'. And they weren't even from Kirkwall.

And they are all dangerous in ways that are unique to mages.

I've said it many times before, the decision to Annul the circle doesn't have to be based in the belief that the Right was correct. You just have to believe that allowing the mages total freedom is too risky. It doesn't matter at that point why there are abominations running around, all that matters is that they are.

Modifié par Deztyn, 17 mai 2011 - 11:35 .

[Xilizhra]

And they are all dangerous in ways that are unique to mages.

Incorrect. Danarius and Hadriana are warlords who just use magic as another weapon. Quentin is a serial killer, ditto. Gascard doesn't actually hurt anyone unless Quentin lures him to his side. Orsino was pushed by the templars into actually using said research; in addition, you have no solid reasons to believe that Orsino was approving Quentin in any way beyond the minimum to not see the Circle Annulled. And along with Decimus and Grace, you have Huon who was pushed by the templars, or at least was sane before he entered the Circle and was insane when he left.

Oh, Tahrone's also motivated primarily by hatred of the templars, and presumably Idunna as well. Why? We never know.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

And they are all dangerous in ways that are unique to mages.

Incorrect. Danarius and Hadriana are warlords who just use magic as another weapon. Quentin is a serial killer, ditto. Gascard doesn't actually hurt anyone unless Quentin lures him to his side. Orsino was pushed by the templars into actually using said research; in addition, you have no solid reasons to believe that Orsino was approving Quentin in any way beyond the minimum to not see the Circle Annulled. And along with Decimus and Grace, you have Huon who was pushed by the templars, or at least was sane before he entered the Circle and was insane when he left.

Oh, Tahrone's also motivated primarily by hatred of the templars, and presumably Idunna as well. Why? We never know.

Don't forget the Kirkwall Insanity Vortex.  The templars are forcibly gathering most of these mages in a place that seems almost guaranteed to drive them mad given enough time.

[Xilizhra]

Which would apply to everyone on that list except for Danarius, Hadriana, and Decimus (Grace was also sane before she entered the Circle).

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

I've said it many times before, the decision to Annul the circle doesn't have to be based in the belief that the Right was correct. You just have to believe that allowing the mages total freedom is too risky. It doesn't matter at that point why there are abominations running around, all that matters is that they are.

Annuling the circle and believing mages should be completely free are two completely separate notions. 

I think Meredith should have done what Gregoir did in DAO and let us kill the evil mages and spare the innocent ones.  Also, trying to use the blood lust of the crowd to justify it was a bad call for me, I mean, whose blood lust was it really?

The ones who've already escaped and turned into abominations are also a separate matter.  You don't have to believe in the total annihilation of the circle to believe in scouring Kirkwall to kill the loose abominations.

[TEWR]

I say journey into the Fade and slaughter every single demon there!

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I say journey into the Fade and slaughter every single demon there!

That's DA4:  Cleanse the Black City

[GavrielKay]

double post

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 mai 2011 - 12:12 .

[Rifneno]

To be fair, Deztyn is by far the best debater on the templar side. He makes thoughtful counterpoints instead of the usual "they're all evil because the ones I met were blood mages!" stuff. Definitely the only pro-templar I came out of a debate having more respect for than when I went in.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I say journey into the Fade and slaughter every single demon there!

I've wondered if that isn't how it'll turn out. I mean, what are demons? As in, can we stop more from being created? Is there a source we can cut off? I've actually been thinking about starting a thread posing the question of whether the Fade is the natural state of the world. In other words, is there *supposed* to be another dimension that's full of demons and stuff? Or is it some colossal "mistake" like the darkspawn? If so, perhaps it can be fixed. In fantasy worlds most problems can be solved by finding the right ancient badass and hitting it until it stops moving. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Fade could be "fixed" by fighting our way into the Black City and killing some megademon.

Edit:  GavrielKay beat me to the punch.  Damn my longwindedness!

Modifié par Rifneno, 18 mai 2011 - 12:17 .

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I say journey into the Fade and slaughter every single demon there!

That's DA4:  Cleanse the Black City

You play as Ser Pounce-A-Lot, who laments that his friend Anders is now possessed and nowhere to be found. To continue on Anders' path to see all mages free, he travels to Tevinter with his faithful Mabari sidekick to research how to journey into the Fade.

Once in Tevinter, he must face the dreaded Minrathous Mice Raider Gang, who control access to the libraries when night falls. After defeating them, he reads all manner of lore and discovers an ancient ritual that allows travel into the Fade. All it requires is.....

Orlesian silk! So off they go to Orlais to find the finest silk there is. The perils are dangerous, but it's all for the greater goal. That every mage can live free and not fear being possessed. Scaling the walls of Empress Celene's castle, Ser Pounce-A-Lot infiltrates her private quarters and takes her silk undergarments, made from the finest silk Orlais has to offer.

Now, in the outskirts of Kirkwall, where it all began.... he commences the ritual. The Fade is changing, and demons are everywhere. But Ser Pounce-A-Lot will not give up. So they slaughter every malicious spirit they come across, and leave a bloody trail in their wake.

The deed.... is done. And with that, Ser Pounce-A-Lot and his Mabari friend exit the Fade, having finally rid the world of all demons. Mages can now be free.

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So they slaughter every malicious spirit they come across, and leave a bloody trail in their wake.

Heh.  Do spirits bleed?

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So they slaughter every malicious spirit they come across, and leave a bloody trail in their wake.

Heh.  Do spirits bleed?

It would be incredibly ironic they don't, since they're the experts of blood magic.  

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So they slaughter every malicious spirit they come across, and leave a bloody trail in their wake.

Heh.  Do spirits bleed?

I would think a Desire Demon might

[cobretti1818]

Just finished it last - and the whole ending was a big WTF?

I sided with the Mages, yet on my way to fight Meredith, I am being attacked my other Mages? And then, just before our final stand, Orsino turns into an abomination and attacks me - ME, the one supporting his cause -and proves Meredith right!

After defeating Orsino, I was willing to offer Meredith a big apology and admit that she was right about all Mages being loony - but she was now possessed by the idol. Thank god for Cullen and some sort of sanity in this mess.