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[Silfren]

Anchor5 wrote...

Everyone seems to have forgotten the original question of this thread. It's not about which decision had the best outcome. Hawke as a character couldn't possibly have known what the outcome would be when s/he had to make that decision. There was no way to tell that Orsino would become an abomination, or that Meridith was possessed by the idol.

The real question I'm asking is which choice was the right choice, based on the information you had at the time of making it.

Surely the mages didn't deserve to be slaughtered, but by helping them you were giving Anders the solution he hoped for, therefore justifying his act of terrorism. Even if you chose to kill anders, which was probably the hardest decision for me in the game, it wouldn't change the momentum of his actions.

You're not giving Anders the solution he hoped for by helping the mages.  He got what he wanted irrespective of Hawke's choice of whom to side with.  Really, whatever Hawke does is beside the point.  He wanted to trigger a revolution and understood that directly attacking the Chantry was the best--perhaps the only--way to do that.  Once that was done, the outcome was pretty much inevitable, whatever happened in Kirkwall.  

Annnnd some of us think his act of terrorism/act of war was justified because of the Chantry's millenium of treating mages like dangerous animals.  That justification has nothing to do with helping the mages fight the Right of Annulment after he jenga'd the Chantry.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

And yeah I felt Orsino proved Meredith right as well. Helping a serial killer. Why what an example you set Orsino.

The trouble for me is that Meredith appears to be like a stuck clock - right at least twice a day, but still not much good to anyone.  (apologies to whoever it was who first made the clock reference, I've forgotten and can't be bothered to look at all 129 pages).

In the right environment - ie. protective and supportive and rational - Orsino would have felt it was safe to talk to Meredith about Quentin and let her know that someone was asking for some strange information.  As it was, I have a hard time blaming him for not wanting to give Meredith any more sticks to beat him with.  She helped to create the environment that made things so bad in Kirkwall and had the gaul to use the result to justify her position all along.  As Silfren/Rifneno put it, retro-justification just doesn't work.

If you add in the idol's plot device cousin - Kirkwall's thin veil - I don't blame most of the mages for what's happening.  I say most because I think we're shown a just few who were just evil or insane all on their own

Edit:  proper attribution

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 mai 2011 - 05:10 .

[Ryzaki]

We disagree. Meredith's actions weren't only because of that sword any more than Orsino's actions were because of the veil.

Who they are played a part in it.
Of course this won't go anywhere so *flees* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 05:12 .

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

I loved Cullen.

He was pretty neutral in the end. Just the kind of person I'd expect to be a templar. Harsh in his condemnation of bloodmages but decent to normal mages.

And yeah I felt Orsino proved Meredith right as well. Helping a serial killer. Why what an example you set Orsino.

Kirkwall really is the one place I could nuke from orbit without regret.  

Orsino may have been providing Quentin with research materials, but that doesn't necessarily mean it follows he knew what he was supporting.  Yes, there's plenty of reason to call Orsino naive, stupid, etc.  But again, that doesn't equate to his having knowingly helped a serial killer.  A person can make a royally stupid mistake, even one that leads to death and suffering, without having malign intent to do so.  So no, Orsino isn't proof that Meredith was right.

Cullen, the guy who openly tells you that mages "aren't people like you and me," and admits to thinking there are good reasons to expand the application of the Rite of Tranquility, who responds to Hawke's objections by saying that mages just need to understand the Chant of Light more in order to appreciate the Chantry's need to lock away mages.  I have no idea what caused his sudden ascent to "neutrality" or "voice of reason" status in the end, as it didn't make much sense, but he is hardly what I'd call "decent" to any mage, blood or otherwise.  

Thrask is a good example of someone who understands the ideal purpose of a templar.  Not Cullen.

[Plaintiff]

Rifneno wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

My sarcastic Hawke explained to Merrill that people would riot to kill the mages and avenge Elthina, so he would help the templars in order to limit casualties.

I always scratch my head when people use that argument. Why do rioters trying to kill people for something they didn't even do deserve mercy? If we ran into a lynch mob on the pro-mage ending, I wouldn't hesitate to open fire into the crowd.

I don't believe for a minute that the citizens of Kirkwall would do such a thing anyway. Maybe the same loonies that sided with Petrice, but the ones that don't support mage freedom have been indoctrinated to fear them almost from birth. They have no prior experience with mages and none of the templar skills required to fight them. I'm totally certain that the vast majority would just stay home.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And yeah I felt Orsino proved Meredith right as well. Helping a serial killer. Why what an example you set Orsino.

The trouble for me is that Meredith appears to be like a stuck clock - right at least twice a day, but still not much good to anyone.  (apologies to whoever it was who first made the clock reference, I've forgotten and can't be bothered to look at all 129 pages).

In the right environment - ie. protective and supportive and rational - Orsino would have felt it was safe to talk to Meredith about Quentin and let her know that someone was asking for some strange information.  As it was, I have a hard time blaming him for not wanting to give Meredith any more sticks to beat him with.  She helped to create the environment that made things so bad in Kirkwall and had the gaul to use the result to justify her position all along.  As Silfren/Rifneno put it, retro-justification just doesn't work.

If you add in the idol's plot device cousin - Kirkwall's thin veil - I don't blame most of the mages for what's happening.  I say most because I think we're shown a just few who were just evil or insane all on their own

Edit:  proper attribution

I made the stuck clock reference about..forty pages back.  It earned me the anti-religion badge. 

[Ryzaki]

Thrask got himself killed by a bloodmage. He was a nice guy. Not a good templar.

But again I disagree. You're not going to convince me of your opinion.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Of course this won't go anywhere so *flees* 

Ryzaki wrote...

Thrask got himself killed by a bloodmage. He was a nice guy. Not a good templar.

But again I disagree. You're not going to convince me of your opinion.

A whole eight minutes.  New record?

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't believe for a minute that the citizens of Kirkwall would do such a thing anyway. Maybe the same loonies that sided with Petrice, but the ones that don't support mage freedom have been indoctrinated to fear them almost from birth. They have no prior experience with mages and none of the templar skills required to fight them. I'm totally certain that the vast majority would just stay home.

That's a good point. It's a little over the head of most people who think "let's kill them all so the poor lynch mob won't get hurt" is a good justification for mass murder.

Silfren wrote...

I made the stuck clock reference about..forty pages back.  It earned me the anti-religion badge. 

Ooo. I want one!

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

I made the stuck clock reference about..forty pages back.  It earned me the anti-religion badge. 

Heh, well said then

I think the funny thing is that there's probably a fair bit of agreement between folks on this thread right up until it comes to making the decisions...

Do mages have the ability to do tremendous damage when they want to or lose control? 
Everyone:  Yes
Should we lock them up and throw away the key?
Split decision

Is Meredith over the top?
Everyone:  Yes
Was she right to call the RoA and try to wipe out the mages?
Split decision

Etc. 

I liked playing DA2 and it's been a blast debating this topic particularly, but so many of the characters are just not "real" in the way their DAO counterparts were.  I mean, Howe was a complete bastard in DAO but he made sense as a jealous power hungry amoral creep.  There was no evil amulet around his neck to deflect his guilt.  Why did the writers feel they needed to give Meredith an out via the idol?

[Deztyn]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

Quentin may have been unhinged by his wife's death, even if he wasn't a mage. But if he didn't have a background in blood magic and/or necromancy he likely wouldn't have decided that piecing together parts of different women was a good idea.[/quote]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I actually thought Quentin was based on a real case like how the Countress is. I'm hesitant to link the case (and honestly, I don't want to google it) but suffice to say the nutjob was trying to resurrect his dead lover. Oh, and he was having sex with her corpse. My point is, Quentin was a psycho. He used magic in his murders, but there's really no telling whether he would've killed people without it. He's clearly insane and he clearly doesn't value the lives of other people.[/quote]

Do I want to know? Do I not want to know? Unsure.

I'm not suggesting that Quentin was bad because he was a mage, just that the course his crazy took was determined by his magic. Ugh. Well at least, if he wasn't a mage I wouldn't have been able to talk to my pixel mother's decapitated and reattached head.

(Sidenote: Am I the only one who was too busy laughing and trying to figure out how that could possibly work to be properly horrified?)

[quote]
[quote]Orsino knew that Quentin's research was "too evil" and "too dangerous" to use, there's a strong implication that he had an idea of how it was being obtained. You're right, it isn't certain. But we know he was hiding him during Act II, possibly earlier, which as far as we know was before Meredith went total Kooky Brainsick and started looking for excuses to Annul the Circle. It's also worth mentioning that it was part of Orsino's job to keep dangerous mages reigned in.[/quote]

Orsino, Meredith, and Elthina are all to blame IMO. Orsino says at a point where he has no reason to lie that he didn't turn in Quentin because he knew Meredith would use it as more ammunition against the Circle. Meredith is creating an environment that actively and harshly discourages good mages from turning in bad ones. Elthina is letting her do it. Orsino I have some sympathy for because it's a very tough position to be put in. Meredith should be boiled though.[/quote]

Bah. I say Orsino was as much a problem as any of them. He just seems nicer. If he'd been willing to work with the templars from the beginning and do his job the whole situation may have been better. Not that this absolves Elthina and Meredith of any blame. But they didn't have ideal working conditions either. Meredith had the Circle on a hellmouth, Orsino had Meredith, Elthina was stuck with them both.

[quote]
[quote]Not really. When you fight against the Annulment you're doing so to help as many mages as you can escape. There's no accounting for who these mages are or how dangerous/innocent they might be. It pretty much requires a belief that mages should be free. There's no reasonable expectation that defending the mages has any other result.[/quote]

But you say that you can support the RoA without believing it's just because you can believe it's just the lesser of two evils basically. Why can the same not hold true for opposing the RoA? That one doesn't believe mages should all be free, but letting the Circle go is a lesser evil than executing them all?[/quote]

Sort of goes hand in hand doesn't it? If you believe that mages are a real threat to themselves and others, that they need training and supervision to avoid the Connor/Amelia type situations, then letting them loose is hard to justify as the lesser evil.

Which doesn't mean I don't understand where you're coming from. I get it. I do. Not all mages are evil. Not all mages will become possessed. The Right punishes them all equally. I've never argued that it was a 'good' or 'moral' decision just that I see it as the most pragmatic one.

[quote]
[quote]I want to preen. But since I know your opinion of most people on the pro-templar side, I'm not really sure I'm being complimented!

But, it's nice to have a discussion with a pro-mager who can do the same and admit there was an angle they hadn't considered even if they don't ultimately agree. Some people are too focused on their side being right to even think about someone else's position. For me thinking about this stuff is the fun part.[/quote]

It's human nature. When people are confronted with an opposing viewpoint, their minds automatically go to "What do I say to counter this?" rather than "Might this person have a valid point?" People rarely consider that they might be in the wrong. Sadly, as amazing as the human brain is, it's wired pretty poorly.

And yes, it was a compliment. You made a good defense for a position I honestly thought was indefensible. [/quote]

*Goes ahead with the preening*

[quote]The pro-templar side would do well to have more of your kind of debate and less of the "it's not genocide! ... lulz the source of that definition doesn't exist in Thedas!" bickering (which I'm partially responsible for, admittedly).[/quote]

Hah. Never saw much point in debating that one. Actions matter more than the labels applied to them.
[quote]
[quote](Note the slight edit to your post )[/quote]

Hehe. Sorry, the Thane avatar threw me.[/quote]

It's because I adore him. <3

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 mai 2011 - 05:43 .

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I loved Cullen.

He was pretty neutral in the end. Just the kind of person I'd expect to be a templar. Harsh in his condemnation of bloodmages but decent to normal mages.

And yeah I felt Orsino proved Meredith right as well. Helping a serial killer. Why what an example you set Orsino.

Kirkwall really is the one place I could nuke from orbit without regret.  

Orsino may have been providing Quentin with research materials, but that doesn't necessarily mean it follows he knew what he was supporting.  Yes, there's plenty of reason to call Orsino naive, stupid, etc.  But again, that doesn't equate to his having knowingly helped a serial killer.  A person can make a royally stupid mistake, even one that leads to death and suffering, without having malign intent to do so.  So no, Orsino isn't proof that Meredith was right.

Cullen, the guy who openly tells you that mages "aren't people like you and me," and admits to thinking there are good reasons to expand the application of the Rite of Tranquility, who responds to Hawke's objections by saying that mages just need to understand the Chant of Light more in order to appreciate the Chantry's need to lock away mages.  I have no idea what caused his sudden ascent to "neutrality" or "voice of reason" status in the end, as it didn't make much sense, but he is hardly what I'd call "decent" to any mage, blood or otherwise.  

Thrask is a good example of someone who understands the ideal purpose of a templar.  Not Cullen.

I feel bad for Cullen, honestly. Unlike Meredith, we are witnesses to Cullen's trauma in Origins, and it's especially tragic if you play a female mage and see the signs of his unrequited affection. Cullen's attitude isn't the result of zealous brainwashing but rather an indeterminate period of mental torture at the hands of demons. And even then, he still questions Meredith's hard-line approach. Cullen isn't the nicest guy in the world, sure, but I think he's at least still open to the possibility of being proven wrong, which is more than can be said for most of the Templars in Kirkwall, and they have nothing like his excuse.

[Deztyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Another weapon" that only other mages can use. For example, a normal warlord would have to beat or threaten a recaptured slave into obedience. Danarius just wipes Fenris' mind and the man never even knew he'd been free.

Which is only a threat to those already completely under his power.

How does that matter? Are you seriously arguing that there is no difference between the ability to influence people with words or threats and the ability to control their minds?

Orsino knew that Quentin's research was "too evil" and "too dangerous" to use, there's a strong implication that he had an idea of how it was being obtained. You're right, it isn't certain. But we know he was hiding him during Act II, possibly earlier, which as far as we know was before Meredith went total Kooky Brainsick and started looking for excuses to Annul the Circle. It's also worth mentioning that it was part of Orsino's job to keep dangerous mages reigned in.

Meredith was always twisted and evil. I doubt the sword could add much to her that wasn't already there; she was a clear danger to the Circle even beforehand. And yes, that may have been Orsino's job; it was also Meredith's job, presumably, to prevent vicious templar abuses, and look how that turned out. Plain and simple, he didn't have the option.

Always twisted and evil is a bit harsh. At the very least, I'm sure when she was a little girl helping her sister hide from the templars, she was a perfectly good child. And Meredith's failures don't absolve Orsino of his. In fact I'd argue if Orsino had done his job better than Meredith might not have been as much of a problem. His job was to advocate for his people, but also to keep them in line. If he'd done the latter better it's possible Meredith wouldn't have been as heavy handed as she was, and he would have been in a stronger position to argue for his people's rights.

Anyway, my point was that the mages were all pretty varied and you couldn't reduce most of them to "Templar Victims" or "Hellmouth Victims". That was something I thought Bioware did right. They did need a few more 'good' mages to balance it all out though.

One of those two is what most of them boil down to in the end, though, if you strip away the divisions.

How? Unless you believe that just living in Kirkwall is enough to turn any mage nuts and excuse their actions, even if they weren't possessed, in contact with any demon or living in the Gallows.

Not really. When you fight against the Annulment you're doing so to help as many mages as you can escape. There's no accounting for who these mages are or how dangerous/innocent they might be. It pretty much requires a belief that mages should be free. There's no reasonable expectation that defending the mages has any other result.

All of the mages have to escape via the same route. Merrill and Anders both make checking for abomination status easy.

As far as I can tell Hawke's not exactly leading them to freedom, she's just fighting off the templars while others try to escape. I wouldn't object to this if it was presented in game though.

I'm not sure it's fair for Hawke to expect to be around afterwards to do damage control.

Good thing there's a ton of templar reinforcements heading this way, yes?

... what?

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

Bah. I say Orsino was as much a problem as any of them. He just seems nicer. If he'd been willing to work with the templars from the beginning and do his job the whole situation may have been better. Not that this absolves Elthina and Meredith of any blame. But they didn't have ideal working conditions either. Meredith had the Circle on a hellmouth, Orsino had Meredith, Elthina was stuck with them both.

I don't think we end up knowing Orsino well enough.  I also don't know too much about what the First Enchanter's responsibilities are.  I could imagine he oversees the training and promotion of mages, has a say in who's ready for their harrowing etc.

It is possible that things would have turned out differently if Orsino had been somehow able to convince the mages that no matter how bad it seemed, fighting back would only make it worse.  That's a pretty hard position to take with people who are being raped/tortured/Tranquiled etc on the off chance that it might have mollified Meredith.  To me, her character seems more the type to take the appearance of submission as further proof that the mages are hiding something

[Anchor5]

Wow, this thread is so hot I can barely keep up with it. You're all right, all of you're arguments against mine make sense. I just think the fact that this is the longest thread and yet still the most active just goes to show what a good job Bioware did in challenging our sense of morality.

I personally don't believe that Anders' actions were justified, and I played a mage who supported him for most of the game. Will he be remembered as a hero, like Andraste, who died for mage rights, or will he be feared as the abomination that brought Thedas to the brink of chaos? All I know is that he fought for justice, and the people he murdered deserved justice just as much as he did.

[Deztyn]

GavrielKay wrote...

The game has up to 4 mages in it.  I'd settle for having to help any one of the others fight off a demon even.  Then the only players who would miss the content are those who never travel with a mage.

See, but we do already. We have Merrill who's been tempted by a pride demon, we have Anders that's well ... Anders, we can also see what's going on in Feynriel's mind as three demons try to take him over.

The logic leap I can't make from the game is that if there are blood mages/abominiations in Kirkwall then all circle mages must be beyond salvage and it isn't even worth trying to sort them out.

It isn't that it's not worth it. In game we don't have the option of trying. Unless you side templar. Sort of.

[Xilizhra]

How does that matter? Are you seriously arguing that there is no difference between the ability to influence people with words or threats and the ability to control their minds?

Not significantly for the purposes of this argument.

Always twisted and evil is a bit harsh. At the very least, I'm sure when she was a little girl helping her sister hide from the templars, she was a perfectly good child. And Meredith's failures don't absolve Orsino of his. In fact I'd argue if Orsino had done his job better than Meredith might not have been as much of a problem. His job was to advocate for his people, but also to keep them in line. If he'd done the latter better it's possible Meredith wouldn't have been as heavy handed as she was, and he would have been in a stronger position to argue for his people's rights.

Harsh, true. She was only such ever since her sister's transformation. But it isn't Meredith's failures that absolve Orsino, it's her abuses. No mage would ever be good enough to withstand her scrutiny; Elthina's appointment of her as knight-commander was an act of horrific negligence and she would have doomed any Circle she ruled; Kirkwall's Veil circumstances didn't help at all.
There can be no reasoning with those devoid of reason.

How? Unless you believe that just living in Kirkwall is enough to turn any mage nuts and excuse their actions, even if they weren't possessed, in contact with any demon or living in the Gallows.

Just living in it is enough for many of them, especially when living in the Gallows.

As far as I can tell Hawke's not exactly leading them to freedom, she's just fighting off the templars while others try to escape. I wouldn't object to this if it was presented in game though.

The Gallows only has one exit, as mentioned. There's no reason why she wouldn't be leading them to freedom, especially since it'd give her the chance to check for abominations. Inserting it into headcanon is easy and acceptable.

... what?

After the battle, the templars send a bunch more of their forces to secure Kirkwall. I assume mopping up the mess left behind by Meredith's actions is their job.

[Rifneno]

Deztyn wrote...

Do I want to know? Do I not want to know? Unsure.

I'm not suggesting that Quentin was bad because he was a mage, just that the course his crazy took was determined by his magic. Ugh. Well at least, if he wasn't a mage I wouldn't have been able to talk to my pixel mother's decapitated and reattached head.

(Sidenote: Am I the only one who was too busy laughing and trying to figure out how that could possibly work to be properly horrified?)

Do or do not want to know what? Whether Quentin would still be a killer, or the psycho I thought they modeled him after? If the latter, no, believe me you do not want to know. And while I wasn't laughing, I was certainly shaking my head in disgust. The VA's did such a fantastic job... the genuine horror in Jo Wyatt's voice when "More blood! She is here somewhere!" was some of the best VA'ing I've heard. Then the ****** poor writing sucked me right back out of immersion when Leandra's frankenstein form stands there wobbling awkwardly and waiting for the battle to finish so she could die in the hero's arms in an explosion of cliche. Gah. Another case of trying too hard and coming off as hard to take seriously.

Bah. I say Orsino was as much a problem as any of them. He just seems nicer. If he'd been willing to work with the templars from the beginning and do his job the whole situation may have been better. Not that this absolves Elthina and Meredith of any blame. But they didn't have ideal working conditions either. Meredith had the Circle on a hellmouth, Orsino had Meredith, Elthina was stuck with them both.

Thrask says in Act I that he thinks Meredith's heavy-handed methods have caused as much or more dissent than obedience. Since we don't see everything from the start it's impossible to know. But it sounds like she brought it on herself by being too much of a hardliner. Elthina... Elthina sucks.

Sort of goes hand in hand doesn't it? If you believe that mages are a real threat to themselves and others, that they need training and supervision to avoid the Connor/Amelia type situations, then letting them loose is hard to justify as the lesser evil.

Not really. It depends upon the chances of a mage going abomination, and the chances of an abomination being that bad. If one believes the chance is high then you're right. But if you believe the risk to be fairly low, then a case could certainly be made for it. You can believe mages need training while still thinking that abominations are relatively rare. Unfortunately, we have no real data on these types of things.

*Goes ahead with the preening*

Preening... now I want to go spend time with my parrot. Think she's asleep though. =/

Never saw much point in debating that one. Actions matter more than the labels applied to them.

Agreed. It always seemed ridiculous that people get so wrapped up in a word. I remember saying "I'm planning on some Reaper genocide soon" to get the point across that it's just a word, but it didn't work out too well. ... Really am looking forward to some Reaper genocide though.

It's because I adore him. <3

Another game where women get the better romance options. Thane and Garrus are both awesome. Mirandra is borderline evil, and there isn't enough viagra and booze in the world for Jack. Tali's a nice girl, but I'm just not a fan of the mystery mask. ... do I need to be living in Europe under an assumed name now?

Plaintiff wrote...

I feel bad for Cullen, honestly. Unlike Meredith, we are witnesses to Cullen's trauma in Origins, and it's especially tragic if you play a female mage and see the signs of his unrequited affection. Cullen's attitude isn't the result of zealous brainwashing but rather an indeterminate period of mental torture at the hands of demons. And even then, he still questions Meredith's hard-line approach. Cullen isn't the nicest guy in the world, sure, but I think he's at least still open to the possibility of being proven wrong, which is more than can be said for most of the Templars in Kirkwall, and they have nothing like his excuse.

Agreed. I feel bad for Cullen. He should be in some serious therapy. But he is traumatized and it's an incredibly bad idea for him to be working as a guard over the minority he's scarred by. Stupid Chantry.

[Ryzaki]

Anchor5 wrote...

Wow, this thread is so hot I can barely keep up with it. You're all right, all of you're arguments against mine make sense. I just think the fact that this is the longest thread and yet still the most active just goes to show what a good job Bioware did in challenging our sense of morality.

I personally don't believe that Anders' actions were justified, and I played a mage who supported him for most of the game. Will he be remembered as a hero, like Andraste, who died for mage rights, or will he be feared as the abomination that brought Thedas to the brink of chaos? All I know is that he fought for justice, and the people he murdered deserved justice just as much as he did.

What made me sad about his "justice" to the people he killed was that I agreed with Elthina. Death isn't justice to me. So him sitting on that box so he could become a martyr just made my Thomas Hawke sigh inside. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 06:38 .

[Deztyn]

GavrielKay wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Bah. I say Orsino was as much a problem as any of them. He just seems nicer. If he'd been willing to work with the templars from the beginning and do his job the whole situation may have been better. Not that this absolves Elthina and Meredith of any blame. But they didn't have ideal working conditions either. Meredith had the Circle on a hellmouth, Orsino had Meredith, Elthina was stuck with them both.

I don't think we end up knowing Orsino well enough.  I also don't know too much about what the First Enchanter's responsibilities are.  I could imagine he oversees the training and promotion of mages, has a say in who's ready for their harrowing etc.

It is possible that things would have turned out differently if Orsino had been somehow able to convince the mages that no matter how bad it seemed, fighting back would only make it worse.  That's a pretty hard position to take with people who are being raped/tortured/Tranquiled etc on the off chance that it might have mollified Meredith.  To me, her character seems more the type to take the appearance of submission as further proof that the mages are hiding something

That's not what I'm suggesting at all.

What little we know of Orsino indicates he was combative with Meredith and overly protective of his mages. His codex entry stops just short of saying he's incompetent and unsuited to the job. Orsino has been the First Enchanter since before the game starts and we know that things in the Circle became progressively worse as time went on. Part of his job is to make sure his mages stay on the straight and narrow, given his own interests it's no surprise he fails there. He's supposed to be working with the Knight-Commander to run the Circle, he's too busy arguing with her to realize that he's not actually helping the situation. He's also supposed to be the mages advocate and represent their interests to the templars. Clearly given their working relationship Meredith isn't going to care much about what he says.

Most want to pin all the blame on Meredith. She's certainly not innocent, and after Act II any attempt to understand her is doomed to fail, but I don't think she's entirely to blame. Not for the situation overall. If Orsino was actually competent he'd have found a way to work with her. (Proving he was actually dedicated to seeing his mages weren't a threat would have been a good start, instead of protecting the troublemakers.)

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 mai 2011 - 06:59 .

[Deztyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

How does that matter? Are you seriously arguing that there is no difference between the ability to influence people with words or threats and the ability to control their minds?

Not significantly for the purposes of this argument.

My argument was that the writers inserted a variety of 'bad' mage types, who did things no normal human could. Not all of whom were caused by the Circle or "the hellmouth" if you're having another argument, I'm not sure what it is.

How? Unless you believe that just living in Kirkwall is enough to turn any mage nuts and excuse their actions, even if they weren't possessed, in contact with any demon or living in the Gallows.

Just living in it is enough for many of them, especially when living in the Gallows.

Funny, I thought the problem with the thin veil meant they were more likely to become possessed or contact demons. Just living in Kirkwall, not even the Gallows, is enough to turn mages crazy and excuse any action now? News to me.

The Gallows only has one exit, as mentioned. There's no reason why she wouldn't be leading them to freedom, especially since it'd give her the chance to check for abominations. Inserting it into headcanon is easy and acceptable.

I don't want your head canon. I want canon. In canon there's no big line of mages being tested when Hawke and friends walk away. Just a bunch of templars nice enough to let them go.

After the battle, the templars send a bunch more of their forces to secure Kirkwall. I assume mopping up the mess left behind by Meredith's actions is their job.

This doesn't helps all the people who will have died in the days/weeks/months before that.

[TEWR]

we know the trouble with the mages started when Hawke landed in Kirkwall and finished up his first year there. Varric tells Cassandra this. It has nothing to do with what happened prior to that, but it was all due to Meredith making the Templars more powerful. But I digress...


Neither one are innocent, but of the two Orsino is the better person. He stood up and defended the mages. Maybe a tad too much, but his heart was in the right place and ultimately when Meredith invoked the RoA, he did what should've been done.

In my book, he's probably the best first enchanter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2011 - 07:21 .

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Do I want to know? Do I not want to know? Unsure.

I'm not suggesting that Quentin was bad because he was a mage, just that the course his crazy took was determined by his magic. Ugh. Well at least, if he wasn't a mage I wouldn't have been able to talk to my pixel mother's decapitated and reattached head.

(Sidenote: Am I the only one who was too busy laughing and trying to figure out how that could possibly work to be properly horrified?)

Do or do not want to know what? Whether Quentin would still be a killer, or the psycho I thought they modeled him after? If the latter, no, believe me you do not want to know. And while I wasn't laughing, I was certainly shaking my head in disgust. The VA's did such a fantastic job... the genuine horror in Jo Wyatt's voice when "More blood! She is here somewhere!" was some of the best VA'ing I've heard. Then the ****** poor writing sucked me right back out of immersion when Leandra's frankenstein form stands there wobbling awkwardly and waiting for the battle to finish so she could die in the hero's arms in an explosion of cliche. Gah. Another case of trying too hard and coming off as hard to take seriously.

I meant the real world case. And yeah it was a nice quest until I realised there would be frankenmom. I just stopped taking it seriously at that point, it probably didn't help that I hadn't been attached to Leandra much.

Thrask says in Act I that he thinks Meredith's heavy-handed methods have caused as much or more dissent than obedience. Since we don't see everything from the start it's impossible to know. But it sounds like she brought it on herself by being too much of a hardliner. Elthina... Elthina sucks.

The codex entries indicate the problems in the Circle predate Meredith, there were always more failed harrowings more abominations. Hellmouth. That doesn't mean she didn't make things worse, but I don't hold any one of them more responsible. (If I complain the most about Orsino it's only because he's the one who usually gets a pass by most posters. His incompetence needs emphasis.)

Not really. It depends upon the chances of a mage going abomination, and the chances of an abomination being that bad. If one believes the chance is high then you're right. But if you believe the risk to be fairly low, then a case could certainly be made for it. You can believe mages need training while still thinking that abominations are relatively rare. Unfortunately, we have no real data on these types of things.

If we did we'd have nothing to argue about!

It's because I adore him. <3

Another game where women get the better romance options. Thane and Garrus are both awesome. Mirandra is borderline evil, and there isn't enough viagra and booze in the world for Jack. Tali's a nice girl, but I'm just not a fan of the mystery mask. ... do I need to be living in Europe under an assumed name now?

I can't bring myself to play manshep, I have no idea how the male romances play out. But yeah, I have no problem figuring out if I want my first run of ME3 to be with a Shepard that saved the base, killed the Rachni Queen, or destroyed the Heretics but which romance she did, that's what's going to be tough to choose.

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

we know the trouble with the mages started when Hawke landed in Kirkwall and finished up his first year there. Varric tells Cassandra this. It has nothing to do with what happened prior to that, but it was all due to Meredith making the Templars more powerful. But I digress...

... so what year did Orsino become First Enchanter?

I know Meredith had been Knight Commander for about ten years by this point.

[TEWR]

at the very least he became first enchanter when Hawke first landed in Kirkwall, as you receive the codex on him during Demands of the Qun. It says that for the past 5 years he'd been having disputes with Meredith. Which isn't indicative really of whose fault the disputes fall to, but I'd place a good guess that it was all due to Meredith.

[Rifneno]

Deztyn wrote...

Funny, I thought the problem with the thin veil meant they were more likely to become possessed or contact demons. Just living in Kirkwall, not even the Gallows, is enough to turn mages crazy and excuse any action now? News to me.

Actually the most place the veil is the thinnest is the old tunnels under the city that they used as... well, a sewer. For blood. The veil is so bad down there that even non-mages can get into the demony fun. I'm not sure if it's true, but I've seen some say that Lady Harimann, the mage that murdered the Vaels and is killed in the Repentance quest, was not actually born a mage. Her magic was just another of the things she got in deals with the desire demon Allure. Since you see she's contacting the demon in those ancient tunnels, it's at least plausible. Anyway, horrific place. There's just mountains of skulls all over the place. No wonder the veil is thinner than the plot to a Pauly Shore movie.

Anyway, I wouldn't go so far as to say it excuses any action, but I think it's reasonable to say it causes a lot of mages to go nuts. As I understood it, the constant bombardment of demons trying to influence them will have either their willpower break and them get possessed, or their sanity break and... well, Quentin. The Chantry's propaganda, which I view as largely fearmongering to keep their stranglehold on political and military power, is sadly pretty accurate of Kirkwall.

The codex entries indicate the problems in the Circle predate Meredith, there were always more failed harrowings more abominations. Hellmouth. That doesn't mean she didn't make things worse, but I don't hold any one of them more responsible. (If I complain the most about Orsino it's only because he's the one who usually gets a pass by most posters. His incompetence needs emphasis.)

Well Kirkwall was always the worst Circle for reasons mentioned above, yes. But how long has there been a Circle housed there? Hundreds of years at least. As far as we know this is the first time things have gotten this out of hand there. If for no other reason than the fact that the Divine is planning to launch a crusade against the city because of how much trouble the mages are causing.

Oh, and I'd say Elthina gets a free pass from the most posters. None of them get a free pass from a majority, but Elthina's "sweet old lady" act convinces a surprising number of people that she shouldn't be blamed for everything exploding (err, no pun intended) on her watch.

If we did we'd have nothing to argue about!

So I take it you're new to the Internet?   

I can't bring myself to play manshep, I have no idea how the male romances play out. But yeah, I have no problem figuring out if I want my first run of ME3 to be with a Shepard that saved the base, killed the Rachni Queen, or destroyed the Heretics but which romance she did, that's what's going to be tough to choose.

Oddly I've only managed one playthrough with FemShep, and one playthrough with Male Hawke. I much prefer ManShep and FemHawke's respective VA's. At first I was disappointed none of the female romance options in ME2 interested me, but after seeing the Garrus/FemShep one once, I wasn't anymore. I was expecting something along the lines of Alistair and the Warden, with them bonding over the time they spent fighting together. Instead FemShep just basically says, "So wanna have weird interspecies sex?" out of nowhere. Garrus stutters for a minute and they set a date. Like a dentist appointment. Then Garrus makes a pun about the Normany's canon and his scaly penis. I'd say it was forgettable, but that'd be a significant improvement.