4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Deztyn wrote...


I don't think that was ever the intention. Demons are attracted to mages, but they're most vulnerable when they sleep. The can be tempted, manipulated and mind-controlled into letting a demon in, but I never thought it was supposed to be a situation where a mage can just walk down the street and spontaneously turn into an abomination.

Problem with this is that if it's true, then it raises the question as to just how strongly the attraction of demons to mages is.  If it's that damned strong, and mages are most vulnerable when they sleep, then it stands to reason that mages would be turning to abominations left and right, whether they're apostates or good little Circle mages.  Especially if a demon doesn't have to resort to temptation, but can simply mind-control their way in. 

If that's the case, neither DA2 nor Origins has done a good job of portraying it, because one never gets the impression that mages are plagued with demons nipping at their heels, just waiting for them to be at their most vulnerable.  It would also make you think that templars are required to stand guard over each mage as they sleep, and conduct a test when they wake up. 

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

Seriously? You think a First Enchanter who does his job is nothing but a templar apologist? You think routinely pissing off Meredith reflects well on the rest of his mages? That criticizing her, undermining her, and challenging her at every turn, often in public somehow makes life better for the mages in the Circle?

It depends on what he's fighting her on.  Criticizing and undermining a woman who either outright or by inaction encourages her fellows to abuse mages should be opposed quite vigorously by the First Enchanter I would say.  We really don't know enough of their back story together to know which activity came first.  We have no way of knowing if it would have been even worse for the mages if he'd been passive.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He turned out to be dangerous to all mages in his charge because of his useless research on the harvester.

Research isn't necessarily bad in itself even if it is learning about things that would be bad if they happened.  It is possible to use knowledge of something bad to do something good.  I don't think we have enough back story on Orsino to know what he was actually supposed to be up to, but just wanting to research something like that makes sense.  You've got a bunch of people all locked up with nothing much to do but learn.  Becoming a Harvester was stupid beyond belief, but learning about it I don't find so bad.

Deztyn wrote...

I don't think that was ever the intention. Demons are attracted to mages, but they're most vulnerable when they sleep. The can be tempted, manipulated and mind-controlled into letting a demon in, but I never thought it was supposed to be a situation where a mage can just walk down the street and spontaneously turn into an abomination.

Now, if a mage was walking down the street, got assaulted by a group of bandits she couldn't handle, and while she was slowly bleeding to death a demon whispered in her ear said "Hey, let me help you out here." Then presto-chango abomination. That's more the situation we're talking about.

It has been argued in this thread that yes, a mage can just walk down the street and suddenly got possessed.  I don't remember who made the argument, but I do get the feeling the Chantry would like folks to believe it anyway.  Whichever situation you prefer however, we never see it in game.  I've had Merrill fall in battle so many times it was pathetic, but no abomination.  If the devs want me to believe that it's imminent danger at all times, then it should be worked into the game. 

Insane and otherwise actively criminal mages like we're shown don't count - even under a very liberal system of circles being boarding schools you'd still have provisions to lock up the actual proven offenders.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Isn't blood magic explicitly free of the Fade?

The lore of DA2 states that many mages see it as the only type of magic that's truly free: "Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

Considering templars can nullify ordinary magic, I can see why some mages would turn to blood magic as a means of survival.

Those last two sentences in that quote suggest rather strongly that blood magic isn't inherently evil, but only marketed as such to suit Chantry purposes, and also makes yet another case for blood magic not necessarily being learned from demons.  After all, it wouldn't qualify as truly free under that last sentence if one had to seek out a demon to learn it.

More to the point, though, is what does that last bit mean, exactly?  If blood magic being tied to the physical means that it's free, what does that say about a mage's natural mana?  I can appreciate the implication of lyrium; if, as "magic in its raw form" it augments a mage's mana, then it does make sense that lyrium-enhanced templars would have the means to negate it in a way that isn't applicable to magic powered by other means.  (Although this says nothing for how templars can use their talents without lyrium, which I've yet to understand).  But mages don't get their natural pool of mana from lyrium, so WTF?  But that last bit would almost imply that a mage's natural mana pool is tied to demons. But aren't demons supposedly attracted to blood magic?

[Deztyn]

Silfren wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I don't mind having the choice to spare some mages. It works because we already know Cullen disagrees with the Right, and it makes Meredith seem a little bit less cracked when she turns on you.

Point.  Missing it.  It doesn't matter that Cullen disagrees with the right.  He isn't the Knight Commander, it's not his call.  Annulment doesn't mean you go through and check for mages who can be spared. It means that every mage in the Circle is beyond redemption, and they all have to bite it.  Every. Last. One.

That's the whole bloody point people are trying to make.  If Annulling the Circle is what you decide to do, you shouldn't get a chance to spare anyone, because that defeats the very purpose of Annulment in the first place.

I get the point quite well, thanks. If I haven't made it clear enough in 100 or so pages, here it is in bold: I have no problem wiping out the entire Circle down to the last innocent apprentice. No, it isn't standard operating procedure, but it works fine for the story that Cullen and Hawke can spare a few. It gives legitamacy to Meredith claims about Hawke. It shows that Cullen will defy Meredith and it completes his character arc. Would you also have prefered the mage ending to include Hawke's death at the hands of an army of templars instead of Cullen allowing you to walk away?

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The litany is magic, it isn't that simple. If any of the nations were wise, tehy would equip all their soldiers with super enchanted weapons aswell, and encase them in inpenetrable armor. However, these things being magic, it just isn't that simple.

But if there had been a simple way to detect abominations, there would enver have been an issue, as the Templars would have used it.

Except as dragonflight288 and others including myself have previously pointed out, the Chantry and Templars have a very strong political reason to keep the general public in constant fear of such things happening whether it's true or not.  They derive pretty much all of their power from being the group in charge of protecting the world from mages.  The more the world needs protecting, the more powerful they will be.  That doesn't give them much incentive to be honest about the dangers or to seek out alternatives like proper testing or dissemination of magical protections that can be used by anyone else. 

This is an area in the game where all the information comes from lore and the institution that benefits from one particular viewpoint.  There are no hard numbers on how often this happens or what else might be done to make people safer.  The hierarchy of the Chantry is almost certainly not interested in alternatives to the fear that gives them a death grip on the hearts and minds of the people.

[Silfren]

Deztyn wrote...

Silfren.

Cullen is a case of character development over years. It actually plays fairly well if you if pay attention.

Meredith just wasn't the pure evil some people try to make her out as. You can be strict without being a monster. She only completely loses it after gaining the idol.

I did pay attention, thank you.  A "case of character development over years", eh?  How about posting something that actually addresses everything I said, rather than dismissing it as my not paying attention?  

His portrayal in Origins from a man who felt sorry for mages to hating them for existing was believeable.  His appearance early in DA2 reflected that, but not once are we shown anything in DA2 to believe that he would change his extremist opinion of mages to a more moderate outlook.  If you disagree, how about offering reasons as to why rather than a flippant, throwaway comment that doesn't offer any evidence to refute my own opinion?

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Dalish entry about the Exalted Marches are worth less than the toilet paper in your drain. It is so extremely brief and bland and devoid of all details, that it can't be used for anything.

Translation: "Anything that supports my position is valid evidence, but anything that refutes it is automatically devoid of any value as same."

Modifié par Silfren, 18 mai 2011 - 10:40 .

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

Sad thing is, that if there'd been consistent writing between Origins and DA2, and a more balanced story for both the mage and templar sides, Bioware could easily have gotten a 50/50 split, or close, from players.  It would not have been that difficult to present players with a solidly believeable scenario where Annulment was the best option, but not a good one.  It just would have taken better writing, which would have taken more time.  Skewing the presentation of mages turned out to be pointless, IMO, when they still portrayed Kirkwall as the sort of place guaranteed to drive mages insane or push them into acts of depredation.  I know I'm not the only one who just feels all the more sympathy for mages in that situation. 

True enough.  The story would have to be internally self consistent however.  No fair having Anders detect an abomination and then several years later someone as thoroughly trained and experienced as Meredith can't.  No fair having the person who is the main in game voice declaring the Right to be necessary come off as a raving lunatic who's pratically frothing at the mouth to start slitting throats.  No fair neutering the Right into something where you're letting mages surrender. 

*sigh*

I did actually like playing the game.  I hope the writers are listening and thinking about how to make the next installment much more self consistent and not immersion breaking.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

unless Tevinter has no pigs =P

That would explain their generally bad mood.

The lack of bacon.

Bacon is the most divine thing to grace this planet

Alistairlover94 wrote...

That's actually a pretty good question. Why do Blood mages always have to use human blood? We should definitely ask a writer this *writes down question for next time a writer is posting in the forums*

I think it was asked before. The answer that was given to the question should be obvious....



DEAD SILENCE.

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

Except that's not what it says at all.

It says there were missionaries. It says there were templars. It says that they got kicked out of their homes. It doesn't address the details of the war. It doesn't mention Red Crossing. It doesn't mention that the Dalish attacked the Orlesians on their home turf. Taken at face value it implies that the Dalish just sat back in Halamshiral the entire time and the big bad Chantry went there to pick on them and drove them out without a war ever happening.

Taken at face value, the entry says the Chantry sent templars into the Dales after the elves kicked out the Chantry missionaries. The Chantry sent armed and armored soldiers into a sovereign nation when it was clear they weren't welcome.

And we know from Nevarra that after the Third Blight, Orlais took control of the nation. After the Fifth Blight, the Orlesians are contemplating to take back control of Ferleden. Why should the elves trust Orlais not to invade if they weakened themselves fighting the Blight, especially if the human nations grew cold to them because the elves refused to convert to the Chantry?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Except that's not what it says at all.

It says there were missionaries. It says there were templars. It says that they got kicked out of their homes. It doesn't address the details of the war. It doesn't mention Red Crossing. It doesn't mention that the Dalish attacked the Orlesians on their home turf. Taken at face value it implies that the Dalish just sat back in Halamshiral the entire time and the big bad Chantry went there to pick on them and drove them out without a war ever happening.

Trust me. I've tried to explain to Lob many, many times that that particular entry is worthless, and doesn't at all say what he thinks it does. He doesn't listen though.

You think it's worthless like you think everything that doesn't agree with your pro-Chantry POV is worthless.

[Silfren]

Deztyn wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I have to take issue with the assertion that if someone is competent they will find a way to work with someone like Meredith.  It completely rules out a fact of life that some people simply refuse to be worked with, and will accept nothing less than complete and total submission. In the face of that, how competent one is at doing their job is of no consequence.  One person's adamant refusal to accept anything less than absolute surrender does not reflect on the other person's capabilities or lack thereof.  And Meredith had all the power in that situation.  What power Orsino had was entirely dependent on her, especially in light of Elthina's refusal to do her damned job.  So he didn't have a chance.

There's no indication that Orsino even tried. There's plenty of evidence that he butted heads with her constantly. and 'refused to do his damned job.'  More explicit evidence of Orsino's failures than Elthina's, I'll point out. (Since I assume this is another comment about you holding Elthina directly responsible for Alrik and Karras.)

No, it was not another comment about Elthina's responsibility*.  It was simply to point out that she was the only advocate Orsino had, and in the absence of that meaning anything, then Orsino was effectively at Meredith's mercy. 

*Just so we're clear:  I do not hold Elthina responsible for Alrik or Karras' actions.  I hold her responsible for not carrying out her responsibility in holding them, or Meredith, accountable to Chantry law.  I consider her equally guilty for allowing abuses to go on, but not in the sense that I think she forced Alrik or Karras or Meredith to do the things they did.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think even the folks who strenuously argue against ever hurting a child would prefer it to outright killing the child in question.

I'm also not convinced the issue is nearly as big as the Chantry/Meredith wants you to believe. Gregoir was willing to have the Warden cleanse the Ferelden circle in leiu of an actual RoA so there are high ranking Templars who believe it can be done. I don't think Meredith was even slightly interested in finding alternatives... she wanted to kill the mages and was just waiting for an excuse.

If the Chantry were really looking to save the world from blood magic, there'd be a zillion copies of the Litany of Adralla and Templars all over trained to use it.

The chantry controls the lyrium trade with the dwarves. That means the templars are addicted and under chantry control. Take away the priests and initiates, take away the people who may be good, but you have templars essentially enslaved by their addiction by an institution. And templars exist in order to protect the world from mages AND protect mages from the world. Or at least they are supposed to. If there was no blood magic, the templars wouldn't be needed. If the templars aren't needed, then the chantry loses their army.

Wrong.  At least, the Chantry, and the game lore in general, would have us believe that mages are dangerous quite apart from blood magic.  Mages are supposed to be dangerous by virtue of existing.  It has nothing to do with blood magic.  That's just supposed to be one of the dangers.  

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The litany is magic, it isn't that simple. If any of the nations were wise, tehy would equip all their soldiers with super enchanted weapons aswell, and encase them in inpenetrable armor. However, these things being magic, it just isn't that simple.

But if there had been a simple way to detect abominations, there would enver have been an issue, as the Templars would have used it.

And yet a non-mage Warden can use it, IIRC.

[White_Buffalo94]

I sided with the Templars for the first time yesterday and besides fighting Anders and killing many potential innocents, along with Meredith's betrayal, it was pretty fun. Unexpected, but I still feel the mages deserve their freedom and thus I will fight for the mages next round. I also am glad to be able to overrule Meredith and save the surrendering mages

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

Would you also have prefered the mage ending to include Hawke's death at the hands of an army of templars instead of Cullen allowing you to walk away?

It might have been more believable to have the pro-mage ending leave off with Hawke in jail waiting for Cullen to get word from his superiors about what to do.  The pro-mage ending has inconsistencies as well, not the least of which is Orsino going Harvester

[TEWR]

Seems to be the standard protocol these days...

And we all suffer for it

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The litany is magic, it isn't that simple. If any of the nations were wise, tehy would equip all their soldiers with super enchanted weapons aswell, and encase them in inpenetrable armor. However, these things being magic, it just isn't that simple.

But if there had been a simple way to detect abominations, there would enver have been an issue, as the Templars would have used it.

And yet a non-mage Warden can use it, IIRC.

Yeah, any Warden could use it.  The Litany is apparently a spell.  Why wouldn't the Chantry want every mage to learn a spell that interrupts the summoning of abominations and does them tremendous damage as well?  Seems like a good thing to have in the old spell book.

[TEWR]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Seems to be the standard protocol these days...

And we all suffer for it

Everyone except for the ones currently having The Witcher 2 properly installed and running lag-free.

Ouch! Low blow!


It's alright though, I have a lot of games I can turn to for the time being. New games, old games, middle-aged games.

I also have a few others on pre-order. Can't wait for Alice: Madness Returns!

[Lewie]

Silfren wrote...

Deztyn wrote...


I don't think that was ever the intention. Demons are attracted to mages, but they're most vulnerable when they sleep. The can be tempted, manipulated and mind-controlled into letting a demon in, but I never thought it was supposed to be a situation where a mage can just walk down the street and spontaneously turn into an abomination.

Problem with this is that if it's true, then it raises the question as to just how strongly the attraction of demons to mages is.  If it's that damned strong, and mages are most vulnerable when they sleep, then it stands to reason that mages would be turning to abominations left and right, whether they're apostates or good little Circle mages.  Especially if a demon doesn't have to resort to temptation, but can simply mind-control their way in. 

If that's the case, neither DA2 nor Origins has done a good job of portraying it, because one never gets the impression that mages are plagued with demons nipping at their heels, just waiting for them to be at their most vulnerable.  It would also make you think that templars are required to stand guard over each mage as they sleep, and conduct a test when they wake up. 

When demons want a foothold, their line of sight is a mage. Maybe some welcome it, maybe some are weak-willed and give in, maybe some are strong-willed, and give in. If you were a demon you would want to possess a mage, that goes without saying, yet it doesn't matter on the whole, Lady Harimann traded her husband and kids for more power and she wasn't a mage.

Edit: She was, so why after was the conversation about magic never being in their family. 

Modifié par louise101, 18 mai 2011 - 11:13 .

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

When demons want a foothold, their line of sight is a mage. Maybe some welcome it, maybe some are weak-willed and give in, maybe some are strong-willed, and give in. If you were a demon you would want to possess a mage, that goes without saying, yet it doesn't matter on the whole, Lady Harimann traded her husband and kids for more power and she wasn't a mage.

Lady Harriman unearthed an Ancient Tevinter Bloodalter where the Veil was essentially nonexistant.  Not at ALL a typical situaiton even for Kirkwall.


-Polaris

[TEWR]

louise101 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Deztyn wrote...


I don't think that was ever the intention. Demons are attracted to mages, but they're most vulnerable when they sleep. The can be tempted, manipulated and mind-controlled into letting a demon in, but I never thought it was supposed to be a situation where a mage can just walk down the street and spontaneously turn into an abomination.

Problem with this is that if it's true, then it raises the question as to just how strongly the attraction of demons to mages is.  If it's that damned strong, and mages are most vulnerable when they sleep, then it stands to reason that mages would be turning to abominations left and right, whether they're apostates or good little Circle mages.  Especially if a demon doesn't have to resort to temptation, but can simply mind-control their way in. 

If that's the case, neither DA2 nor Origins has done a good job of portraying it, because one never gets the impression that mages are plagued with demons nipping at their heels, just waiting for them to be at their most vulnerable.  It would also make you think that templars are required to stand guard over each mage as they sleep, and conduct a test when they wake up. 

When demons want a foothold, their line of sight is a mage. Maybe some welcome it, maybe some are weak-willed and give in, maybe some are strong-willed, and give in. If you were a demon you would want to possess a mage, that goes without saying, yet it doesn't matter on the whole, Lady Harimann traded her husband and kids for more power and she wasn't a mage.

wait... I know Flora said she wasn't a mage, but if she wasn't a mage how could she use magic? Does this mean demons can teach magic to non-mage people?

[TEWR]

I may give Skyrim a shot, but I just couldn't handle Oblivion. I kept laughing from the faces, so I had to put it away forever.


I want to see this be officially announced, developed, and released:

http://en.wikipedia....ss_(Square_Enix)