4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Books on blood magic are kept in the Circle libraries for several reasons. One is to root about the bad apples from the good ones. In the Ferelden Circle the books were udner survailence and when a mage or apprentice took the books, it was noted, or something to that effect.
Another reason is: It is knowledge. Dangerous knowledge, but it is on a subject the Circle and the Templars are constantly trying to combat. They need to have such knowledge ready. Reading a blood magic book, does not make you a blood mage, any more than reading a racist book makes you a racist.

Several problems here.  One, if you're rooting out the bad apples from the "good," how exactly do you determine when one is reading those books for the purpose of knowledge and research versus actively trying to learn blood magic?  Moreover, where is the line drawn between learning for learning's sake, and learning for the purpose of knowing blood magic?  How do you properly research something without actually doing it, which makes you a blood mage and therefore practicing something forbidden?  It's entrapment, and one other reason why I have no sympathy for the Chantry.

And the Chantry doesn't exactly have a reputation for respecting anything done in the name of research.  How many times has it been referenced in this thread about the Chantry forbidding medical research?

Those ostensible reasons don't hold up under scrutiny.  The situation in Ferelden seems to have been Irving's idea, not typical Circle practice.  He was apparently doing it in the name of the greater good.  No evidence to support it being a Chantry-approved trap.  Either way, keeping books on hand for research is one thing.  Having them be freely accessible to anyone and everyone is another.  Given the Chantry's position on blood magic and various other forbidden practices, it is highly suspicious that it'd be okay with those books just lying around.  

Also, my post was pretty much in reference to that.  I'm well aware of the ostensible purposes for having the books on hand.  I just find it very, very suspicious, and I'm not impressed with any practice that "weeds out" such "bad apples" as Jowan through entrapment.  Causing people to become guilty of a Chantry-designated crime by encouraging their curiosity and punishing them for it?  Nothing evil about that, not at all.

[dragonflight288]

And I still have not seen anyone who supports templars speak up about my questions regarding Meredith being the Acting Viscount or the templars as an order trying to take over the city guard from Aveline. Are there no arguments to be made?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Seems to be the standard protocol these days...

And we all suffer for it

Everyone except for the ones currently having The Witcher 2 properly installed and running lag-free.

I agree. It runs great. No performance issues. No stuttering. I have just one small problem. No sound. And the wrong aspect ratio. The no sound issue is because the devs didn't care to test 7.1 audio devices (an no, some of these devices cannot switch into another mode to avoid the issue). And the wrong aspect ratio is because the devs have chosen only to support 16:9 (which is used by 30% of the Steam users), and CDPR forgot that the majority has 16:10 (40%) and the rest 4:3, 5:4, etc. (also 30%). Numbers were calculated using Steam's last hardware survey. I could live with the aspect ratio inconvenience, but sound is not too much to ask.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 mai 2011 - 11:20 .

[dragonflight288]

http://en.wikipedia....ss_(Square_Enix) That does look awesome.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Seems to be the standard protocol these days...

And we all suffer for it

Everyone except for the ones currently having The Witcher 2 properly installed and running lag-free.

Ouch! Low blow!


It's alright though, I have a lot of games I can turn to for the time being. New games, old games, middle-aged games.

I also have a few others on pre-order. Can't wait for Alice: Madness Returns!

I finally acquired Witch Hunt, Golems, and Leliana's Song for Origins.  Going to give that entire game another playthrough roleplaying as an anti-Chantry/Circle mage.  See if I can pick up on things I missed before, that might shed more light on the overall situation between mages and templars.

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

When demons want a foothold, their line of sight is a mage. Maybe some welcome it, maybe some are weak-willed and give in, maybe some are strong-willed, and give in. If you were a demon you would want to possess a mage, that goes without saying, yet it doesn't matter on the whole, Lady Harimann traded her husband and kids for more power and she wasn't a mage.

Lady Harriman unearthed an Ancient Tevinter Bloodalter where the Veil was essentially nonexistant.  Not at ALL a typical situaiton even for Kirkwall.


-Polaris

So what is typical.. speculation has power apparently.

That place had more bones than the bone pit. Shall we speculate now on whom these bones belong too? I would imagine its hundreds or thousands of men, women, children, rats, the odd mabari, a few elves, dwarves, and a few boots and old scarves. Conveniently hidden away.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Deztyn wrote...


I don't think that was ever the intention. Demons are attracted to mages, but they're most vulnerable when they sleep. The can be tempted, manipulated and mind-controlled into letting a demon in, but I never thought it was supposed to be a situation where a mage can just walk down the street and spontaneously turn into an abomination.

Problem with this is that if it's true, then it raises the question as to just how strongly the attraction of demons to mages is.  If it's that damned strong, and mages are most vulnerable when they sleep, then it stands to reason that mages would be turning to abominations left and right, whether they're apostates or good little Circle mages.  Especially if a demon doesn't have to resort to temptation, but can simply mind-control their way in. 

If that's the case, neither DA2 nor Origins has done a good job of portraying it, because one never gets the impression that mages are plagued with demons nipping at their heels, just waiting for them to be at their most vulnerable.  It would also make you think that templars are required to stand guard over each mage as they sleep, and conduct a test when they wake up. 

When demons want a foothold, their line of sight is a mage. Maybe some welcome it, maybe some are weak-willed and give in, maybe some are strong-willed, and give in. If you were a demon you would want to possess a mage, that goes without saying, yet it doesn't matter on the whole, Lady Harimann traded her husband and kids for more power and she wasn't a mage.

Edit: She was, so why after was the conversation about magic never being in their family. 

What does any of that have to do with what I wrote?  I addressed the question of how strongly demons are attracted to mages and just how vulnerable mages are to demon attack. 

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I still have not seen anyone who supports templars speak up about my questions regarding Meredith being the Acting Viscount or the templars as an order trying to take over the city guard from Aveline. Are there no arguments to be made?

depends on what you asked at first. I'll give it a shot but what was your original post?

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I may give Skyrim a shot, but I just couldn't handle Oblivion. I kept laughing from the faces, so I had to put it away forever.


I want to see this be officially announced, developed, and released:

http://en.wikipedia....ss_(Square_Enix)

Oh gawd yes, that sounds so wicked!

That it does. The whole Ivalice Alliance games themselves are pretty awesome

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2011 - 11:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Deztyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Does everything typed by a pro-templar player have to be some kind of assault on the pro-mage position?

Nearly everything the templars do is an assault on the mages. So almost.

Aaaaand I'm officially done talking to you!

My apologies. I was at work and in a bad mood when I typed that.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I still have not seen anyone who supports templars speak up about my questions regarding Meredith being the Acting Viscount or the templars as an order trying to take over the city guard from Aveline. Are there no arguments to be made?

In fairness, I personally found some of your phrasing of those questions to be loaded, in a way that forces answers to be framed according to your bias, rather than being genuinely open, honest questions.  Not saying you did that consciously or deliberately at all, but that's how I read them, myself.  Had you been addressing me, I'd have either snarkily point it out and re-phrased the questions myself so I could give a more honest answer about my own position, free of your biases, or I'd have just ignored it altogether.  I don't let myself be drawn into answering skewed questions.  =P

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Seems to be the standard protocol these days...

And we all suffer for it

Everyone except for the ones currently having The Witcher 2 properly installed and running lag-free.

Ouch! Low blow!


It's alright though, I have a lot of games I can turn to for the time being. New games, old games, middle-aged games.

I also have a few others on pre-order. Can't wait for Alice: Madness Returns!

I finally acquired Witch Hunt, Golems, and Leliana's Song for Origins.  Going to give that entire game another playthrough roleplaying as an anti-Chantry/Circle mage.  See if I can pick up on things I missed before, that might shed more light on the overall situation between mages and templars.

when the PSN store comes back up, I'm gonna download Leliana's Song.

Darkspawn Chronicles isn't important enough to me. Now if they gave the Archdemon an actual voice, instead of being "Gararehgoahoeboaoehgh eoahe ohfeoh ohbgtoehaoh" then I might buy it. Just to hear what the hell an Archdemon sounds like to the Darkspawn.


*imagines the Archdemon singing It's A Small World After All*

[GavrielKay]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I still have not seen anyone who supports templars speak up about my questions regarding Meredith being the Acting Viscount or the templars as an order trying to take over the city guard from Aveline. Are there no arguments to be made?

I'm not pro-Templar by any stretch, but I could imagine an arugment being made that Meredith was consolidating power to better protect the city from the mages who were running rampant.  If you stretch the definition of her duties to the absolute limit, I suppose you include making sure the secular powers around her were fully capable of supporting and assisting in her mission.  If it wasn't clear that a potential new Viscount or existing Captain of the Guard was willing and able to keep the mages under control she might have felt it was her duty to fix that.

I don't buy it under the circumstances that are actually in the game.  But if you instead imagine a perfectly sane and rational Knight Commander in a city with utterly corrupt Viscount wannabes and Guard Captains you could more easily argue that it was merely fulfilling her duties to thwart those individuals.

[Lewie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I still have not seen anyone who supports templars speak up about my questions regarding Meredith being the Acting Viscount or the templars as an order trying to take over the city guard from Aveline. Are there no arguments to be made?

She wanted to consoldate authority, its probably a mixture of fear and actually not wanting kirkwall to fall when early on templars may all become abominations. Iv thought about that... scary stuff. Who would she trust knowing that anyone could poof in front of her eyes. Give kirkwall a viscount who may or may not be.... Meredith was driven to being completely paranoid. Isn't that the point though of inciting chaos and madness.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*imagines the Archdemon singing It's A Small World After All*

*splutters*  Coffee up the nose, coffee up the nose!  OW. 

[dragonflight288]

Hmm. Okay, if my question was loaded, then that wasn't intended that way. So I'll go in game events as they happened, which was the order of my questions, and then ask opinions.

At the end of Act 2, the Arishok has killed Viscount Dumar. With is death (before the idol starts affecting Meredith) she has to step up as acting viscount.

Three years later, Orsino is debating with Meredith and outright states that Meredith is not allowing anyone to come forward to be the new viscount. She doesn't even deny it. If Hawke steps forward or suggests the nobles rule the city, she immediately shuts down the argument before it can get started. She's not allowing anyone to come forward as the new Viscount.

What is everyone's opinion on that? And please don't say it's loaded. That's just what happens.

As for my second question, about the city guards.

Going in for Aveline's companion quest in Act 3, we see her arguing with a templar. She is constantly being watched by the templars and they want her removed so they can command the guard. That isn't speculation because Cullen confirms it. He admits that templars have been talking about consolidating power in Kirkwall. They have the circle, Meredith is the acting Viscount. The only thing left to take over is the guard. And Aveline isn't budging.

These two things are not loaded questions. They are things happening in the game. We see it. I simply described it as best I could. What is everyone's opinions about these two things?

[TEWR]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Ether: Witch Hunt is only good if you've romanced Morrigan, otherwise it's complete crap. And I always thought Archie was more of a Michael Bolton fan?

I think it's horrible how female Wardens couldn't go through the mirror.


As for Archie, he may be a Michael Bolton fan too. Maybe his favorite song that Bolton sung was Go the Distance?

[AngryFrozenWater]

I said it before. There is no good or bad choice, because it depends on the player character's point of view. One can give reasonable explanations for both (if we forget a lot of the irrational story issues that applies to both sides). The game allows both and it looks like BW never punishes a player for a decision. DA2 has the additional disadvantage that there are no real choices besides cosmetic ones in the main story. And 135 pages later, some still argue about the issue. It puzzles me.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 mai 2011 - 11:38 .

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

wait... I know Flora said she wasn't a mage, but if she wasn't a mage how could she use magic? Does this mean demons can teach magic to non-mage people?

Read the Enigma of Kirkwall Entries.  Lady Harriman uncovered an old Tevinter Bloodshrine and it's a place where the Viel is not just thin (which is typical of Kirkwall) but basically non-existant.  Demons in such places can and do cross freely in and out of the veil there.  As such, I find it very easy to believe that Lady Harriman was granted a mage's power by her demon because of the special nature of the veil in that location.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I don't mind having the choice to spare some mages. It works because we already know Cullen disagrees with the Right, and it makes Meredith seem a little bit less cracked when she turns on you.

Point.  Missing it.  It doesn't matter that Cullen disagrees with the right.  He isn't the Knight Commander, it's not his call.  Annulment doesn't mean you go through and check for mages who can be spared. It means that every mage in the Circle is beyond redemption, and they all have to bite it.  Every. Last. One.

That's the whole bloody point people are trying to make.  If Annulling the Circle is what you decide to do, you shouldn't get a chance to spare anyone, because that defeats the very purpose of Annulment in the first place.

I get the point quite well, thanks. If I haven't made it clear enough in 100 or so pages, here it is in bold: I have no problem wiping out the entire Circle down to the last innocent apprentice. No, it isn't standard operating procedure, but it works fine for the story that Cullen and Hawke can spare a few. It gives legitamacy to Meredith claims about Hawke. It shows that Cullen will defy Meredith and it completes his character arc. Would you also have prefered the mage ending to include Hawke's death at the hands of an army of templars instead of Cullen allowing you to walk away?

If it meant that Hawke protected some of the enchanters, mages, and apprentices from getting killed? I'd have no problem with it. But what about Hawke killing Cullen? He can take on abominations, demons, dragons, a High Dragon, a Harvester, and a Lyrium Idol possessed Knight-Commander who can animate statutes, so I don't think he'd have a problem taking on the Knight-Captain and his templars. The Champion may not be too bright, but he can certainly kill.

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It would be harder to believe in Annulment if you go into a room and see templars killing seven year old apprentice mages who were only just taken to the gallows.

Indeed. Wynne drives this home hard in DAO. She tells you repeatedly the RoA means slaughtering the scared children she's protecting. But in a shocking twist of fate, most players didn't want to murder children because a zealous druggie told them they might do something bad later if spared. I know, right? The crazy things people believe... So they had to sugar coat the RoA in DA2 to make it a better split. Now I've actually seen people say they sided with the templars because that scene lets them spare some mages and they actually thought that helping Meredith with the annulment would save more mages than fighting it. Un-****in'-believable.

Deztyn wrote...

But if it was that serious even Saint Bethany would have gone abomination or started piecing together various bits of templars to try and resurrect her brother.

Honestly, I think she would have eventually. Remember that the Hawkes are only in Kirkwall for 7~ years. If they were natives it might be a lot different.

Deztyn wrote...

It's not the first time the Circle was Annuled, however. If it had been Meredith with a different First Enchanter, or Orsino with a different Knight-Commander things might have turned out much different. Never mind Anders, the Resolutionists, the influx of Starkhaven mages, the Refugee situation, the Qunari, they all played a part.

"The Right has always been a last resort, when every mage involved was beyond salvation. The situation was far more dire in Ferelden's Circle, and yet many mages were saved. We could still do as much here." - Cullen

We don't know the circumstances of other annulments, but a senior templar clearly states that they were not done in cases like this.

I think it's more recognizing that Elthina was in a very difficult position. That doesn't excuse her. But she didn't deserve to be blown up.

Orsino was in a far more difficult position than her.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I may give Skyrim a shot, but I just couldn't handle Oblivion. I kept laughing from the faces, so I had to put it away forever.

Oblivion was completely ruined by the level scaling IMO. Some scaling is okay, but the amount of scaling there was incredible. If you don't bother to level up much, stunted scamps are about the only things you'll encounter when closing critical oblivion gates. If you do bother to level up, every bandit in the world has a full set of daedric armor, a material so rare that the richest nobles are lucky to have a single piece. What the hell ever.

louise101 wrote...

That place had more bones than the bone pit. Shall we speculate now on whom these bones belong too? I would imagine its hundreds or thousands of men, women, children, rats, the odd mabari, a few elves, dwarves, and a few boots and old scarves. Conveniently hidden away.

Tevinter slaves. That place is where they were keeping basically a sewer system of blood to power their evil.

If only there was a place you could find stuff like this. Maybe a section in-game where you can read lore. They could call it a codex or something. ... Nah, that'd never work. I guess we'd just have to hope someone mentioned exactly the subject at hand and explained it the night before in the same thread, like what happened here.

[Deztyn]

Silfren wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Silfren.

Cullen is a case of character development over years. It actually plays fairly well if you if pay attention.

Meredith just wasn't the pure evil some people try to make her out as. You can be strict without being a monster. She only completely loses it after gaining the idol.

I did pay attention, thank you.  A "case of character development over years", eh?  How about posting something that actually addresses everything I said, rather than dismissing it as my not paying attention?  

His portrayal in Origins from a man who felt sorry for mages to hating them for existing was believeable.  His appearance early in DA2 reflected that, but not once are we shown anything in DA2 to believe that he would change his extremist opinion of mages to a more moderate outlook.  If you disagree, how about offering reasons as to why rather than a flippant, throwaway comment that doesn't offer any evidence to refute my own opinion?

The attitude isn't called for, I didn't dismiss everything you said, I just meant that the development was there even if it wasn't obvious. I didn't intend for the comment to be snarky, if that's how it reads, I apologize.

Cullen in Origins is Cullen directly after a traumatic experience. The epilogue is not canon and eight years later his opinions have shifted. That's a fairly normal part of the healing process even without pointing to specific events.

Cullen's view of mages was and remains that they are dangerous
and need to be watched and contained. That does not translate to being
abused or killed for the slightest transgression, and there's no indication that Cullen ever supported abusing his charges. What does change is the way he thinks they should be dealt with and that's tied up with the situation in Kirkwall, Meredith, the RoA and the proper role of a templar. 

There's many references to Cullen thinking all is not well in Kirkwall. Since you want something specific, Cullen is questioning Meredith even in Act I, with his comments about how templars are viewed in Kirkwall. The codex entry about the Mage Underground is also written as a letter from Cullen, it's either a polite criticism of the way apostate's families are treated by the templars, or it lays the groundwork for his discontent by Act III, when it's clear from the actions of templars like Mettin that his suggestion to win the minds and hearts of the people is being ignored in favor of pure brutality.

The way he treats Keran after his ordeal indicates he's already started to change, yes he needs a little reassurance to keep him as a templar, but this is the same guy who said "They may have demons within them, lying dorment, lying in wait!" and wanted to kill off the survivors of the Fereldan Circle. That he's willing to keep him at all is still significant.

Cullen's decision to spare the mages is also a bookend with a similar conversation he had with Greagoir in Origins. It's not a leap to think that during the Annulment in Kirkwall he's come to realize that Greagoir was right all along. Seriously, in that scene you can almost see the lightbulb going off over his head.

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 mai 2011 - 11:53 .

[Ryzaki]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I said it before. There is no good or bad choice, because it depends on the player character's point of view. One can give reasonable explanations for both (if we forget a lot of the irrational story issues that applies to both sides). The game allows both and it looks like BW never punishes a player for a decision. DA2 has the additional disadvantage that there are no real choices besides cosmetic ones in the main story. And 135 pages later, some still argue about the issue. It puzzles me.

Eh its the internet.

People will argue over anything.