4350 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I said it before. There is no good or bad choice, because it depends on the player character's point of view. One can give reasonable explanations for both (if we forget a lot of the irrational story issues that applies to both sides). The game allows both and it looks like BW never punishes a player for a decision. DA2 has the additional disadvantage that there are no real choices besides cosmetic ones in the main story. And 135 pages later, some still argue about the issue. It puzzles me.

It is true that you are never penalized for your choices.

I don't think it's true that the choices are euqivalently explainable.  To fight for the Templars you have to believe Meredith.  She's the only one pushing for the Annulment.  Meredith lacks sufficient objectivity and raionality to be taken at her word.

We still argue because debating is fun and the occasional pat on the back for an argument well made is satisfying even if it doesn't change anyone's mind.

[Deztyn]

Ryzaki wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I said it before. There is no good or bad choice, because it depends on the player character's point of view. One can give reasonable explanations for both (if we forget a lot of the irrational story issues that applies to both sides). The game allows both and it looks like BW never punishes a player for a decision. DA2 has the additional disadvantage that there are no real choices besides cosmetic ones in the main story. And 135 pages later, some still argue about the issue. It puzzles me.

Eh its the internet.

People will argue over anything.

I just think it's fun. <3

[Plaintiff]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm. Okay, if my question was loaded, then that wasn't intended that way. So I'll go in game events as they happened, which was the order of my questions, and then ask opinions.

At the end of Act 2, the Arishok has killed Viscount Dumar. With is death (before the idol starts affecting Meredith) she has to step up as acting viscount.

Three years later, Orsino is debating with Meredith and outright states that Meredith is not allowing anyone to come forward to be the new viscount. She doesn't even deny it. If Hawke steps forward or suggests the nobles rule the city, she immediately shuts down the argument before it can get started. She's not allowing anyone to come forward as the new Viscount.

What is everyone's opinion on that? And please don't say it's loaded. That's just what happens.

As for my second question, about the city guards.

Going in for Aveline's companion quest in Act 3, we see her arguing with a templar. She is constantly being watched by the templars and they want her removed so they can command the guard. That isn't speculation because Cullen confirms it. He admits that templars have been talking about consolidating power in Kirkwall. They have the circle, Meredith is the acting Viscount. The only thing left to take over is the guard. And Aveline isn't budging.

These two things are not loaded questions. They are things happening in the game. We see it. I simply described it as best I could. What is everyone's opinions about these two things?

Well, firstly, I find it odd that you say Meredith 'has' to step up and take command. She really doesn't. In fact, she shouldn't. She assumes authority and nobody fights her because she commands a well-trianed army. I think doing that and interfering with Aveline's job were both gross abuses of power. I think Elthina should've sent to the Divine for a replacement and had Meredith packed off to Val Royeaux. I think allowing Meredith any sort of substantial power in the first place was a mistake. She is the Loghain of Dragon Age 2, a bitter, untrustworthy person, driven to paranoid insanity by childhood trauma, who sees monsters behind every curtain.

Forget Kirkwall, I wouldn't trust Meredith with my coffee.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm. Okay, if my question was loaded, then that wasn't intended that way. So I'll go in game events as they happened, which was the order of my questions, and then ask opinions.

At the end of Act 2, the Arishok has killed Viscount Dumar. With is death (before the idol starts affecting Meredith) she has to step up as acting viscount.

Three years later, Orsino is debating with Meredith and outright states that Meredith is not allowing anyone to come forward to be the new viscount. She doesn't even deny it. If Hawke steps forward or suggests the nobles rule the city, she immediately shuts down the argument before it can get started. She's not allowing anyone to come forward as the new Viscount.

What is everyone's opinion on that? And please don't say it's loaded. That's just what happens.

As for my second question, about the city guards.

Going in for Aveline's companion quest in Act 3, we see her arguing with a templar. She is constantly being watched by the templars and they want her removed so they can command the guard. That isn't speculation because Cullen confirms it. He admits that templars have been talking about consolidating power in Kirkwall. They have the circle, Meredith is the acting Viscount. The only thing left to take over is the guard. And Aveline isn't budging.

These two things are not loaded questions. They are things happening in the game. We see it. I simply described it as best I could. What is everyone's opinions about these two things?

Meredith should've stepped down from holding power when people Hawke came forward. Hawke is well loved by the nobility, commoners, and some of Darktown's citizens. The nobility even say that he should be Viscount. Templars are not meant to hold worldly power. When a Templar takes their vows, they forswear their ties to the nobility. Ser is just a title of respect, which all Templars have.

As for the attempted takeover of the City Guard, that is more proof that Meredith was wrong, imo. Templars are meant to protect the mages from the Citizens and the citizens from the mages, of which they are already spread out very thinly. The City Guard are police, while the Templars are.... well I don't really know what they would be. The mafia?

Meredith was unfit to bear the rank of Knight Commander when Act 1 begins, because that was when the trouble started. I got the impression Orsino tried to work it out with her like a FE and KC should at first, but eventually saw
Meredith for who she really was, and he didn't want his charges to face things they shouldn't.

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I said it before. There is no good or bad choice, because it depends on the player character's point of view. One can give reasonable explanations for both (if we forget a lot of the irrational story issues that applies to both sides). The game allows both and it looks like BW never punishes a player for a decision. DA2 has the additional disadvantage that there are no real choices besides cosmetic ones in the main story. And 135 pages later, some still argue about the issue. It puzzles me.

It is true that you are never penalized for your choices.

I don't think it's true that the choices are euqivalently explainable.  To fight for the Templars you have to believe Meredith.  She's the only one pushing for the Annulment.  Meredith lacks sufficient objectivity and raionality to be taken at her word.

We still argue because debating is fun and the occasional pat on the back for an argument well made is satisfying even if it doesn't change anyone's mind.

I hate to wade back into this, but the bolded part - not so.

I don't like Meredith.  She's a hardass nut, and we don't hardly get a chance to talk to her.

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

wait... I know Flora said she wasn't a mage, but if she wasn't a mage how could she use magic? Does this mean demons can teach magic to non-mage people?

Read the Enigma of Kirkwall Entries.  Lady Harriman uncovered an old Tevinter Bloodshrine and it's a place where the Viel is not just thin (which is typical of Kirkwall) but basically non-existant.  Demons in such places can and do cross freely in and out of the veil there.  As such, I find it very easy to believe that Lady Harriman was granted a mage's power by her demon because of the special nature of the veil in that location.

-Polaris

Ah yes the Band of Three Codexes. That could explain it.

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

Cullen's decision to spare the mages is also a bookend with a similar conversation he had with Greagoir in Origins. It's not a leap to think that during the Annulment in Kirkwall he's come to realize that Greagoir was right all along. Seriously, in that scene you can almost see the lightbulb going off over his head.

I'm not a Cullen supporter generally, but I will say, there's a big difference between trying to convince someone else to do something and doing it yourself.  Having the responsibility sit squarely on your shoulders and pushing the button as it were is not the same as cheering someone else on.

Cullen could be imagined to like it better in the abstract than the actuality.  I dunno.  The end is so warped by the goals of the devs that any ratinoalization I put on it in my head feels like an afterthought.  Like i f you said it to a writer they'd go...  "oh yeah, let's pretend we were thinking that all along..."

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

Heh, yes, you and I have faced off before

Does it bother you though, that we don't get a tour of the circle at any point to see how many or few mages are kept there in order to frame the relative occurrence of lunatics?  It bothers me that the ones we never see could number in the hundreds or thousands and could be almost entirely innocent.

[Deztyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Does everything typed by a pro-templar player have to be some kind of assault on the pro-mage position?

Nearly everything the templars do is an assault on the mages. So almost.

Aaaaand I'm officially done talking to you!

My apologies. I was at work and in a bad mood when I typed that.

<_<





Okay, forgiven. <3

[Lewie]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

wait... I know Flora said she wasn't a mage, but if she wasn't a mage how could she use magic? Does this mean demons can teach magic to non-mage people?

Read the Enigma of Kirkwall Entries.  Lady Harriman uncovered an old Tevinter Bloodshrine and it's a place where the Viel is not just thin (which is typical of Kirkwall) but basically non-existant.  Demons in such places can and do cross freely in and out of the veil there.  As such, I find it very easy to believe that Lady Harriman was granted a mage's power by her demon because of the special nature of the veil in that location.

-Polaris

Ah yes the Band of Three Codexes. That could explain it.

So a veil at say.. 75% thickness everyone in kirkwall should breathe easy. 

[TEWR]

It would've been more believable if you could talk to him 2 more times in Act 3. After On the Loose and Best Served Cold, you could talk to Cullen and he shows that he's changing his beliefs again. Or at least is now more understanding of the mages in Kirkwall.

All we got was "I question whether I'm serving the Order or the Knight Commander" which isn't enough.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, lovely.

[Plaintiff]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

Heh, yes, you and I have faced off before

Does it bother you though, that we don't get a tour of the circle at any point to see how many or few mages are kept there in order to frame the relative occurrence of lunatics?  It bothers me that the ones we never see could number in the hundreds or thousands and could be almost entirely innocent.

That's what bothers me about that line of argument too. I like to think my Hawkes recognize that their personal experience does not necessarily dictate the norm.

If the only black guy I ever met happened to mug me, does that make me justified in refusing to take a bus with a black man on it?

[hoorayforicecream]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

Heh, yes, you and I have faced off before

Does it bother you though, that we don't get a tour of the circle at any point to see how many or few mages are kept there in order to frame the relative occurrence of lunatics?  It bothers me that the ones we never see could number in the hundreds or thousands and could be almost entirely innocent.

It wouldn't have made a difference. Engine limitations can't readily show more than 25 entities on screen at a time. Mage supporters would simply conclude that the mages we see aren't a representative number, and templar supporters would conclude the same thing - they'd just disagree on what the actual number is. Players got a chance to go through the entirety of the Ferelden tower and nobody knows how many mages there were there either. In fact, we never find out how many mages are in a normal circle... dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Nobody knows. 

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

Heh, yes, you and I have faced off before

Does it bother you though, that we don't get a tour of the circle at any point to see how many or few mages are kept there in order to frame the relative occurrence of lunatics?  It bothers me that the ones we never see could number in the hundreds or thousands and could be almost entirely innocent.

That's what bothers me about that line of argument too. I like to think my Hawkes recognize that their personal experience does not necessarily dictate the norm.

If the only black guy I ever met happened to mug me, does that make me justified in refusing to take a bus with a black man on it?

only if it's the same black man who mugged you

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He turned out to be dangerous to all mages in his charge because of his useless research on the harvester.

Research isn't necessarily bad in itself even if it is learning about things that would be bad if they happened.  It is possible to use knowledge of something bad to do something good.  I don't think we have enough back story on Orsino to know what he was actually supposed to be up to, but just wanting to research something like that makes sense.  You've got a bunch of people all locked up with nothing much to do but learn.  Becoming a Harvester was stupid beyond belief, but learning about it I don't find so bad.

I don't mind research, even for the sake of it without any practical applications, either. But in an environment that is favorable to this.

The Harvester research required blood magic (completely illegal) and magic that while legal, is viewed at with suspicion (necromancy). In an environment marked by an over-zealous radical KC and increasing radicalization, fear and tension, this was not the time nor place to research something like the Harvester. It was dangerous in its pratical applications, but also dangerous because its discovery could have been used as justification for Meredith to wipe out the Circle and as further ammo to make people fear mages (what conclusions would people reach upon hearing such a thing?). Or even be weaponized by radical mage elements without Orsino's knowledge.

So it was neither a prudent thing to do, nor was it productive. So it's not even a calculated risk, because it's really not that practical.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mai 2011 - 12:22 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

TJPags wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I said it before. There is no good or bad choice, because it depends on the player character's point of view. One can give reasonable explanations for both (if we forget a lot of the irrational story issues that applies to both sides). The game allows both and it looks like BW never punishes a player for a decision. DA2 has the additional disadvantage that there are no real choices besides cosmetic ones in the main story. And 135 pages later, some still argue about the issue. It puzzles me.

It is true that you are never penalized for your choices.

I don't think it's true that the choices are euqivalently explainable.  To fight for the Templars you have to believe Meredith.  She's the only one pushing for the Annulment.  Meredith lacks sufficient objectivity and raionality to be taken at her word.

We still argue because debating is fun and the occasional pat on the back for an argument well made is satisfying even if it doesn't change anyone's mind.

I hate to wade back into this, but the bolded part - not so.

I don't like Meredith.  She's a hardass nut, and we don't hardly get a chance to talk to her.

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

One of my PCs is a non-blood mage who supports the templars, not because she believes Meredith, but because she wants to get in a better and a more powerful position. When given the chance she would advice other non-blood mages to do the same. By infiltrating in the ranks that way they will get more power and thus will be better equiped in the long run to deal with blood mages and prevent that mages are hunted down for what they are.

Another one is a blood mage who supports the templars just because she is power hungry. Inflitrating in better and powerful positions is not a means, it's an end. Meredith is just an obstacle to take. She feels no respect for other blood mages who don't do the same. They should get organized. Instead those mindless creatures slit their wrists whenever a templar pops up. Not very smart to say the least. Organizing can make them more powerful in the long run.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 19 mai 2011 - 12:25 .

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

Heh, yes, you and I have faced off before

Does it bother you though, that we don't get a tour of the circle at any point to see how many or few mages are kept there in order to frame the relative occurrence of lunatics?  It bothers me that the ones we never see could number in the hundreds or thousands and could be almost entirely innocent.

It wouldn't have made a difference. Engine limitations can't readily show more than 25 entities on screen at a time. Mage supporters would simply conclude that the mages we see aren't a representative number, and templar supporters would conclude the same thing - they'd just disagree on what the actual number is. Players got a chance to go through the entirety of the Ferelden tower and nobody knows how many mages there were there either. In fact, we never find out how many mages are in a normal circle... dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Nobody knows. 

Except we can see many more Ferelden mages than what we saw in Broken Circle when the collective armies march.

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Although the decision can be seen in terms of agreeing with Meredith, I don't view it as believing her.  Instead, I believe my own eyes, which lead me to the conclusion that the mages in Kirkwall are lunatics, and need to be wiped out.

Heh, yes, you and I have faced off before

Does it bother you though, that we don't get a tour of the circle at any point to see how many or few mages are kept there in order to frame the relative occurrence of lunatics?  It bothers me that the ones we never see could number in the hundreds or thousands and could be almost entirely innocent.

Of course it bothers me.  There's so much about this game that bothers me.  Most of it centers on lack of information.

In DAO, we were faced with a mindless enemy who's goal is to kill all of humanity (dwarves and elves included).  We lacked information there, but I didn't think it was necessary.  Hordes of enemies want to wipe out humanity?  Kill them.  Simple enough, really.

In DA2, we have no grand goal, no defined enemy.  We're asked to make a choice between killing a bunch of people, or not.  We never get to meet a lot of these people.  We don't even know how many of them there are.  We don't know what they think of Templars, Kirkwall, the Chantry, being in the Circle, Anders actions, the hordes of rabid mages outside - we know nothing.

But we have to decide. 

I know a lot of people have said they factor those unknown mages into their decision making, and choose to save them.  That's fine.  I've repeatedly pointed out its speculation, but it's valid - we have no information otherwise, afterall.

I choose to assume all those lunatic mages we saw are repesentative of those we don't see.  Speculation?  Sure, of course.  Just as valid?  Sure, of course - we have no information otherwise.

But yes, it bothers the hell out of me that I have to kill someone who did nothing to me up to that point, based on nothing more than speculation.

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

But if it was that serious even Saint Bethany would have gone abomination or started piecing together various bits of templars to try and resurrect her brother.

Honestly, I think she would have eventually. Remember that the Hawkes are only in Kirkwall for 7~ years. If they were natives it might be a lot different.

Eh. I don't know about that. If that were true than every mage in Gallows would be crazy.

Deztyn wrote...

It's not the first time the Circle was Annuled, however. If it had been Meredith with a different First Enchanter, or Orsino with a different Knight-Commander things might have turned out much different. Never mind Anders, the Resolutionists, the influx of Starkhaven mages, the Refugee situation, the Qunari, they all played a part.

"The Right has always been a last resort, when every mage involved was beyond salvation. The situation was far more dire in Ferelden's Circle, and yet many mages were saved. We could still do as much here." - Cullen

We don't know the circumstances of other annulments, but a senior templar clearly states that they were not done in cases like this.

I was talking about the overall situation in Kirkwall. You were saying that things had never been that bad before, right? Exalted March and all? I was agreeing with you. Just pointing out what made modern Kirkwall such a special hell.

I think it's more recognizing that Elthina was in a very difficult position. That doesn't excuse her. But she didn't deserve to be blown up.

Orsino was in a far more difficult position than her.

I'm not advocating he should be blown up though... wait.

Nevermind.

Modifié par Deztyn, 19 mai 2011 - 12:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Necromancy isn't legal in Thedas.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Except we can see many more Ferelden mages than what we saw in Broken Circle when the collective armies march.

Yes. However, the total numbers are still not really representative. The video shows mages (and other forces) in the dozens. Does that mean that Ferelden had dozens, hundreds or thousands of mages? What about dwarves, men, or elves? We don't know.

[AngryFrozenWater]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Necromancy isn't legal in Thedas.

The blood mages don't see that as a problem.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Necromancy isn't legal in Thedas.

What do you call the spirit school of magic's Animate Dead then? Or is that just a fancy parlor trick not to be taken seriously?


@hoorayforicecream: True, but it gives us a better guess on the numbers than Broken Circle did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Necromancy isn't legal in Thedas.

Animating dead via fade spirits is legal and is part of the Spirit school. Whether that's considered necromancy or not, I don't know.

In any case, it's besides my point.