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[Xilizhra]

Instead he wanted to improve the world in one swoop, and peacefully by the sound of it. Unrealistic and naïve.

This is more or less why Anders succeeded when Thrask failed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Instead he wanted to improve the world in one swoop, and peacefully by the sound of it. Unrealistic and naïve.

This is more or less why Anders succeeded when Thrask failed.

How did Anders succeed other than starting a war? What results did he bring? And if the chaos he started does come up with results, the credit is due to those who thought about it, and clearly not the mentally deranged fool.

Thrashk, in his failure, still demonstrated the possibility of collaboration and the only ones who ****ed it up are mages. Or rather one mage who should have been tranquilized, but wasn't because the Templars were unexplainably merciful.

[Xilizhra]

He succeeded in starting the revolution. He was correct in his beliefs about how the mages felt about the Chantry, and also in the notion that they needed a symbol to begin it. He needed to do nothing more; credit will certainly go to those who think about and fight in the war, but he deserves it as well, as the perfect and perhaps only person to start it.

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You aren't gonna get far with claiming Cullen is a "good guy" against the pro-mage fellas. They are way too stuck up on an epilogue slide which never happened, and on the fact that he points out that mages aren't like normal people.

I'm kind of stuck up on DA2 Cullen saying mages can't be treated like people.

However, I agree with KoP re Anders' "success."  His strategy consisted of press a button and something awesome happens.  The fact that the Circles actually do rebel because of something that happens in Kirkwall seems odd to me.  I suppose we'll have to see how the story develops.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

He succeeded in starting the revolution. He was correct in his beliefs about how the mages felt about the Chantry, and also in the notion that they needed a symbol to begin it. He needed to do nothing more; credit will certainly go to those who think about and fight in the war, but he deserves it as well, as the perfect and perhaps only person to start it.

Ends =/= means.

[Xilizhra]

All means are justified if they're necessary to achieve the best end.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

He succeeded in starting the revolution. He was correct in his beliefs about how the mages felt about the Chantry, and also in the notion that they needed a symbol to begin it. He needed to do nothing more; credit will certainly go to those who think about and fight in the war, but he deserves it as well, as the perfect and perhaps only person to start it.

We don't know that. Mages could have revolted because the Templars cracked down on them later. We have no details as of yet vis-a-vis how the revolutions started.

He deserves nothing in my books, for anyone could do what he did. He's a reckless fool and nothing more. He might end up being a convenient fool, but still a fool for unleashing something without even having the sligtest idea, notion or plan on how to deal with it. Not to mention alienating everyone.

Like everyone in DA2, he's an idiot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

All means are justified if they're necessary to achieve the best end.

If you know what the "best ends" are (and Anders doesn't except in rethoric) and if you're pragmatic about those means (which Anders wasn't, how could he if he ignored all the potential allies in his paranoia).

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

All means are justified if they're necessary to achieve the best end.

Ummm . . . .wow.

Really?

Okay then . . . *steps away slowly* 

[Xilizhra]

We don't know that. Mages could have revolted because the Templars cracked down on them later. We have no details as of yet vis-a-vis how the revolutions started.

Wouldn't Varric have been likely to mention it?

He deserves nothing in my books, for anyone could do what he did. He's a reckless fool and nothing more. He might end up being a convenient fool, but still a fool for unleashing something without even having the sligtest idea, notion or plan on how to deal with it. Not to mention alienating everyone.

But no one did do what he did. The action was what mattered, and perhaps what you referred to as a reckless fool was what we most needed at that moment. I know, at least, that I don't believe any compromise would have sufficed, not so long as the Chantry stayed in power.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Wouldn't Varric have been likely to mention it?

No, I don't see how he could know in detail what's happening in the rest of Thedas except through rumors and hearsay.

Furthermore, David Gaider himself said that it's not all what it seems to be. There might not even be a revolution.

But no one did do what he did. The action was what mattered, and perhaps what you referred to as a reckless fool was what we most needed at that moment. I know, at least, that I don't believe any compromise would have sufficed, not so long as the Chantry stayed in power.

Except I don't take an action in isolation, the mindset of the actor is crucial for me to see if the action was warranted or not. Not talking about morality, I don't really care. but more pragmatic concerns.

I see no real plan, I don't see much logic, I see no qualifications, no legitimacy amongst mages the people he's claiming to be acting for and I see a complete waste of an opportunity, an alienation of potential allies and an aggravation of the situation. I see Anders for what he is. A mentally deranged paranoid fool.  So his act cannot be contructive except with the intervention of outside actors that he cannot possibly have planned for (so the credit goes to them and not him).

I can only see the act as warranted if someone manipulated Anders into doing what he did, while having an idea on how to deal with the aftermath. That's a person I could somewhat respect. Anders? His action is as bad as Elthina's inaction.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He succeeded in starting the revolution. He was correct in his beliefs about how the mages felt about the Chantry, and also in the notion that they needed a symbol to begin it. He needed to do nothing more; credit will certainly go to those who think about and fight in the war, but he deserves it as well, as the perfect and perhaps only person to start it.

We don't know that. Mages could have revolted because the Templars cracked down on them later. We have no details as of yet vis-a-vis how the revolutions started.

He deserves nothing in my books, for anyone could do what he did. He's a reckless fool and nothing more. He might end up being a convenient fool, but still a fool for unleashing something without even having the sligtest idea, notion or plan on how to deal with it. Not to mention alienating everyone.

Like everyone in DA2, he's an idiot.

Not everyone in DA2 is an idiot. Merrill, Flemeth, Varric, Donnic, etc..


But what if news of Kirkwall's events were enough to make the Circles revolt? What if that was why? Would Anders then deserve credit?

honestly one of the problems I have with Anders is his manifesto, or lack thereof. We only hear one tiny part of it, which I agreed with, but it would've been nice if we had a Codex on a more detailed version. There are apparently many pages from it in the Hawke Estate, but that does nothing. Just "Oh more manifesto. Oh look a bunny!"

[TEWR]

Furthermore, David Gaider himself said that it's not all what it seems to be. There might not even be a revolution.

there is. Otherwise Cassandra has no reason to interrogate Varric. She's said herself that there's a war going on.

[Xilizhra]

I actually kinda want to write the manifesto myself.

Also, what allies did Anders alienate that could have been helpful for the worldwide revolution?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But what if news of Kirkwall's events were enough to make the Circles revolt? What if that was why? Would Anders then deserve credit?

No, because anyone can arouse a rebellion. To lead and guide it, and make something out of it is what deserves credit.

Because I don't see revolutions as an intrinsic good to be praised. Revolutions are always ugly and can lead to uglier situations and it's never clear if they are necessary as they end up following already established trends. So if you want to start one, you better have a bloody good idea what you're doing. And of course, you need to be sane. Anders was not sane.

honestly one of the problems I have with Anders is his manifesto, or lack thereof. We only hear one tiny part of it, which I agreed with, but it would've been nice if we had a Codex on a more detailed version. There are apparently many pages from it in the Hawke Estate, but that does nothing. Just "Oh more manifesto. Oh look a bunny!"

I doubt it was anything more substantial than basic rethoric and comparision to Tevinter that he knows very little about.

And that was in Act 2. By Act 3, he completely lost it and I doubt anyone even read them.

[Xilizhra]

Because I don't see revolutions as an intrinsic good to be praised. Revolutions are always ugly and can lead to uglier situations and it's never clear if they are necessary as they end up following already established trends. So if you want to start one, you better have a bloody good idea what you're doing. And of course, you need to be sane. Anders was not sane.

Largely true, but I believe this was needed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, what allies did Anders alienate that could have been helpful for the worldwide revolution?

Been through this a hundred times, the allies were in Kirkwall. Nobility, populace and guards. A worldwide revolution was not necessary and if it does prove necessary after efforts to avoid it were made, then so be it. The clear aggressor would have been those who refused to compromise and it would have been the Chantry in this instance.

And even should a worldwide revolution happen, the populace are more likely to sympathise with mages that were aggressed, than they are to mages that destroyed a chantry and assassinated the grand mother. If Anders did not realize that Meredith was crumbling because she lacked popular support, then he understood nothing (how could a paranoid mentally unstable man learn anyting anyways). 

So instead of being an idiot, he should have focused more on encouraging popular sympathy. Even their neutrality in the war would be of critical importance.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 mai 2011 - 01:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because I don't see revolutions as an intrinsic good to be praised. Revolutions are always ugly and can lead to uglier situations and it's never clear if they are necessary as they end up following already established trends. So if you want to start one, you better have a bloody good idea what you're doing. And of course, you need to be sane. Anders was not sane.

Largely true, but I believe this was needed.

If it is, it needed someone who knew what he was doing. Not Anders.

[TEWR]

Well what if the mages want Anders (along with maybe Hawke if you sided with the mages) to lead them, assuming he was spared? What if after his whole Jenga debacle, Justice begins to release his stranglehold on Anders a little bit and Anders reverts back to being somewhat normal?

What if Anders can be a good leader for the mages?

[Xilizhra]

If Anders did not realize that Meredith was crumbling because she lacked popular support, then he understood nothing (how could a paranoid mentally unstable man learn anyting anyways).

Meredith was unimportant to Anders as a person. It was Thedas as a whole that mattered, not just Kirkwall.

As to the rest... yes, Meredith could have been overthrown in Kirkwall, but it wouldn't have done anything. The templars would still be there, the Circle would still be there, and nothing would change elsewhere. And since the Chantry seems to be crumbling, the templars are rogue, and the mages are still standing, the war seems to be going quite well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well what if the mages want Anders (along with maybe Hawke if you sided with the mages) to lead them, assuming he was spared? What if after his whole Jenga debacle, Justice begins to release his stranglehold on Anders a little bit and Anders reverts back to being somewhat normal?

What if Anders can be a good leader for the mages?

I saw nothing of him in Awakening that even slightly hints at him being a good leader.

And it's irrelevent, in DA2, he was clearly not qualified when he made his choice. He could not have possibly planned for justice leaving and him beign restored and then suddenly being qualified and considered legitimate amongst mages that don't know him, to lead them. Indeed, he knew he was going to have to die, because becoming a "martyr" was the extent of what he can do.

And if spared, the moron says that Hawke might be the leader the mages were waiting for, which for me removes all possibility of him being a good leader.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Meredith was unimportant to Anders as a person. It was Thedas as a whole that mattered, not just Kirkwall.

As to the rest... yes, Meredith could have been overthrown in Kirkwall, but it wouldn't have done anything. The templars would still be there, the Circle would still be there, and nothing would change elsewhere. And since the Chantry seems to be crumbling, the templars are rogue, and the mages are still standing, the war seems to be going quite well.

To those who lack patience, perspective and vision, yes. But to those who understand that history is moved by subtle changes and trends before the big ones (merely a formality to seal the deal), a change in Kirkwall, one of the primary hubs of commerce in the Waking sea, could have had a large effect, both short and long term, over all of Thedas. The rise of nationalism and states will be the real death of the Chantry. Not empty headed revolutionaries. 

And we know nothing of the war as of yet and you're assuming that the collapse of the chantry means that the mages will necessarily build something new. Easy to destroy. The true victory is in building something new and quite frankly considering mage idiocy in DA2, I doubt they can do anything whorthwhile unless led by some genius. Or appropriated by states.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not everyone in DA2 is an idiot. Merrill, Flemeth, Varric, Donnic, etc..

Merrill is an idiot.  We know nothing about Flemeth, but she hardly counts.  Donnic is kind of a meathead, but ok.  Varric... I'll give you that one.

But what if news of Kirkwall's events were enough to make the Circles revolt? What if that was why? Would Anders then deserve credit?

Revolt is not an end.  What system is supposed to replace it?  Especially given that Anders has just validated the reason the Circle exists in its oppressive form to begin with?

[Xilizhra]

I don't trust nationalism or states as far as I can throw them. I prefer an international self-managed Circle organization. I'm also not certain how far real-world historical trends can be applied to Thedas, given the unprecedented effects of magic; of course, you seem to be more qualified on this subject than I, so I can't say much more. But given Kirkwall's Hellmouth status, I kind of doubt that much constructive could happen there.

Also, getting rid of Meredith wouldn't get rid of the templars.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well what if the mages want Anders (along with maybe Hawke if you sided with the mages) to lead them, assuming he was spared? What if after his whole Jenga debacle, Justice begins to release his stranglehold on Anders a little bit and Anders reverts back to being somewhat normal?

What if Anders can be a good leader for the mages?

That's a lot of if's.  What exactly about Justice leads you to believe he's going to go cuddly?

And Anders didn't ask the mages of Thedas if they wanted him to lead them.  He appointed himself revolutionary instigator.  (oh, he does want to volunteer Hawke, though does so manipulatively and whether you agree or not)

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mai 2011 - 01:51 .