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[Foolsfolly]

Both the ends and means of the templars are evil, so there's no contradiction.

Protecting society from raving mad mages and training mages to resist demons is evil? Because that's what the Circles do.

Well, that's what they do when they're not in Dragon Age 2. Where literally hundreds of capable intelligent people must be insane by plot devices or completely unable to tie their boots in the morning to allow things to get so bad.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 20 mai 2011 - 12:12 .

[Xilizhra]

The latter is done by other mages and the former is done much less than outright oppression of innocent mages.

[Foolsfolly]

I think a lot of people in Kirkwall held the Idiot Ball too closely. There's no reason for the Grand Cleric to stay neutral that long, nor for the Viscount to allow Meredith's power to continue to grow unhindered.

Or for Templars, nobles, and mages to allow the abuses to continue for years despite people openly talking about the questionable status of Meredith's mental health.

Knight-Captain Cullen himself questions her sanity and does nothing.

I mean, there were many many many people who could have stepped in at any time and prevented this thing. But everyone had to be as dumb as possible for the plot to work. Or we're supposed to believe Meredith's really that scary.

When she locks herself up in her office and talks to herself while her Templars tell strangers in the Gallows that she's crazy. Yeah, they're in fear of her.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He succeeded in starting the revolution. He was correct in his beliefs about how the mages felt about the Chantry, and also in the notion that they needed a symbol to begin it. He needed to do nothing more; credit will certainly go to those who think about and fight in the war, but he deserves it as well, as the perfect and perhaps only person to start it.

Ends =/= means.

They do when there's only one viable means of achieving them.

*waits for the gasps of horror*

Odd that an anti-circle fella would claim that the ends justify the means.

and how is that. against people that support a rotting structure for their own gain you need to just that. or do you beleive the chantry will just give up thei power they now enjoy?

[Darc_Requiem]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I chuckle at this whole pro-mage vs pro-Templar divide that's going on.

And Grace should have been made tranquil them moment they caught her. She was clearly unstable.

Are you serious?  Inflicting a fate worse than death upon mages for stupid reasons, like seeming a bit unstable after having just seen their lover slaughtered in front of them, is *exactly* the problem.

Honestly I wish I had the opportunity to kill Grace.  She was very obviously as guilty as her boyfriend (and I don't mean just running away from the circle either).  She just had (barely) enough sanity to know that trying to kill you was a losing proposition the first time.  In fact if you talk with her and don't immediately buy her sob story, she turns into a perfect little witch (and not even Anders can defend her boyfriend).

I am very sympathethic to mages, but Grace deserves death for what she's done.

-Polaris

Grace is one my least favorite characters in DA2. There are Templars and Mages working together to get rid of Meredith, another one of my least favs, and she had to muck it up. I like DA2 a lot, but the railroading annoys me. That and the mages suddenly turning to abominations at the drop of a hat. It's like they are trying to push you into being pro-Templar. Orsino going Amgarrak when you side with the mages annoys me as well.

[Lewie]

After many playthroughs i still find evidence that there are innocents both mages and templars, there isn't one conclusive outright answer, last playthrough i sent Ella back to the circle for the first time (just to see) and she sends a letter saying the templars don't want tranquility and hate all the fighting thats going on. They are branded as evil yet they are made up of men and women who are doing a job, with a few despots floating around inside. I hope in 3 there is no mage/templar conflict any more, something new, Origins gave you many choices but they were satisying and didn't leave you wondering.

[DKJaigen]

louise101 wrote...

After many playthroughs i still find evidence that there are innocents both mages and templars, there isn't one conclusive outright answer, last playthrough i sent Ella back to the circle for the first time (just to see) and she sends a letter saying the templars don't want tranquility and hate all the fighting thats going on. They are branded as evil yet they are made up of men and women who are doing a job, with a few despots floating around inside. I hope in 3 there is no mage/templar conflict any more, something new, Origins gave you many choices but they were satisying and didn't leave you wondering.

It not the templars that are evil its the system that is corrupt. I expect that most templars are decent human beings. But they work in a system thats corrupt and allows for abuse. While kirkwall  was the worst case scenario with a mad KC and some corrupt mages and templar it doesnt change the fact that the current templar system is a bad one.

The major problem with the templar's is that they are dogmatic and religious and little concerned with pragmatism and logic. And logic and pragmatism should bbe your basis of your endeavors

[TEWR]

I've never denied that there are good templars among Kirkwall's ranks. There are just way too many bad templars. I believe DA3 will show the mage-templar conflict. I can only hope that it does it well and portrays each side being equally good and evil. 50% good Templars, 50% bad templars. And the same applies to the mages. Or at least 60-40.

Just something to not make us want to drown our brains in memory bleach.

[Beerfish]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I think a lot of people in Kirkwall held the Idiot Ball too closely. There's no reason for the Grand Cleric to stay neutral that long, nor for the Viscount to allow Meredith's power to continue to grow unhindered.

Or for Templars, nobles, and mages to allow the abuses to continue for years despite people openly talking about the questionable status of Meredith's mental health.

Knight-Captain Cullen himself questions her sanity and does nothing.

I mean, there were many many many people who could have stepped in at any time and prevented this thing. But everyone had to be as dumb as possible for the plot to work. Or we're supposed to believe Meredith's really that scary.

When she locks herself up in her office and talks to herself while her Templars tell strangers in the Gallows that she's crazy. Yeah, they're in fear of her.

Correct, but don't let old Orsino off the hook for ignoring at best or aiding and covering up bad mage behaviour, to go along with numerous other mages that have the chance to do the right thing but don't.  There were precious few of those.

[Darc_Requiem]

Beerfish wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I think a lot of people in Kirkwall held the Idiot Ball too closely. There's no reason for the Grand Cleric to stay neutral that long, nor for the Viscount to allow Meredith's power to continue to grow unhindered.

Or for Templars, nobles, and mages to allow the abuses to continue for years despite people openly talking about the questionable status of Meredith's mental health.

Knight-Captain Cullen himself questions her sanity and does nothing.

I mean, there were many many many people who could have stepped in at any time and prevented this thing. But everyone had to be as dumb as possible for the plot to work. Or we're supposed to believe Meredith's really that scary.

When she locks herself up in her office and talks to herself while her Templars tell strangers in the Gallows that she's crazy. Yeah, they're in fear of her.

Correct, but don't let old Orsino off the hook for ignoring at best or aiding and covering up bad mage behaviour, to go along with numerous other mages that have the chance to do the right thing but don't.  There were precious few of those.

Yeah really I liked Orsino up until I found out he was hiding Quentin. That with his Amgarrak impersonation after I sided with the mages dimmed my view of him greatly.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yet Grace and her stunt destroyed the rebellion before its fruition. Had he not recruited any mage at all, it would have been avoided. And the Templars he did convince would still be alive. instead he had to rush it, and thus bring about his own ruin.

That's an awful lot of assumption with no proof.  The rebellion could have been squashed even sooner without the mages help for all you know.  Or taken down by a Templar with a sudden attack of loyalty to Meredith.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed, I assume that the Templars he had already convinced were loyal, and not just mind controlled by Grace. So if he had not included mages at all, the Templars would have seem to pose a united front against Meredith and her rule, instead now with the mages, they compromise their own intergrity. The entire rebellion can easily be written off as blood mage influence now. Had mages never been involved and the Templars had themselves solved their leadership issues, it could have worked.

[TEWR]

Grace didn't mind control anyone. They did thorough interrogations on anyone claiming to be against Meredith. They wanted to prove that they were actually against Meredith.

And if they were all mind controlled, then why did some Templars also choose to not side with Grace? Why does Cullen mention this? The whole attempted revolt was not the work of blood mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 mai 2011 - 04:49 .

[Xilizhra]

[quote]Correct, but don't let old Orsino off the hook for ignoring at best or aiding and covering up bad mage behaviour, to go along with numerous other mages that have the chance to do the right thing but don't. There were precious few of those.[quote]
Exactly; almost none of them had a chance to do the right thing at all. Those who did, thankfully, generally took it.

[Beerfish]

Thrask, though a nice guy and an idealist could easily have been dismissed as having a massive conflict of interest in the whole affair due to what happened to his daughter. As a knight commander I would quickly and probably very successfully paint him as a Templar that fell from grace (yea pun!) because of his daughters situation. Being a charismatic fellow he influenced other templars to join him and did indeed consort with blood mages.

[Beerfish]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Correct, but don't let old Orsino off the hook for ignoring at best or aiding and covering up bad mage behaviour, to go along with numerous other mages that have the chance to do the right thing but don't. There were precious few of those.[quote]
Exactly; almost none of them had a chance to do the right thing at all. Those who did, thankfully, generally took it.[/quote]

Eh?  None of them had a chance to do the right thing?  Many of them did.  (I am talking about all mages invovled in the story not just the ones we don;t see in the tower.)

[TEWR]

Beerfish wrote...

Thrask, though a nice guy and an idealist could easily have been dismissed as having a massive conflict of interest in the whole affair due to what happened to his daughter. As a knight commander I would quickly and probably very successfully paint him as a Templar that fell from grace (yea pun!) because of his daughters situation. Being a charismatic fellow he influenced other templars to join him and did indeed consort with blood mages.

Technically Meredith and Cullen fall into that because of their past experiences.

Thrask was right though. If Templars and Mages worked together the Circles would be a better place.

The problem is the Chantry focuses on a fervent belief in the Maker and then preaches that magic is a curse to Templars, Mages, and citizens alike. This inevitably makes the people believe this and will lead to more bad scenarios.

[Xilizhra]

Well, the vast majority of mages are locked in the Gallows, so the vast majority had no chance. There are several clean ones running the mage underground until Meredith wipes them all out. Tarohne's group consisted of five people. The Starkhaven mages and Huon were twisted by their time in the Gallows. Gascard does do the right thing in the crunch period, or at least he did in my game.

[GavrielKay]

What do people think Thrask's goal was with his rebellion? Did I miss some in game explanation?

They were never going to talk Meredith down from her position. She was always portrayed as a zealot and I don't think criticism from a group of Templars and mages was going to do anything except get the critics in big trouble. Thrask et al. would have to be completely daft to think they were going to influence her - now, daft is a very real possibility - but then their rebellion was a failure before it got started anyway.

If they wanted Elthina or the Divine to replace Meredith, then surely well documented instances of the abuses and credible witnesses would work better than a rebellion. The Templars aren't a democracy, this wasn't a matter of getting 100 signatures on the petition before getting a vote of no confidence on the ballot.

If they wanted Meredith dead so that hopefully the next KC would be an improvement, then a couple of well placed talented assassins would have been called for. They certainly could have hired my rogueHawke for the job

So is the rebellion anything more than a plot device to get Thrask killed (thus showing sympathetic Templars get whacked by crazy mages) and someone you care about kidnapped by said crazy mage?

If it's just the Grace Plot Railroad - final stop - then why should the player care?

[Beerfish]

I think he (Thrask) felt that by being able to show a cooperation between mages and templars that he could avert the type of thing that happened at the end and also have it lead to Meredith being ousted. It was obvious that he had no use for Meredith so I would assume he felt that sooner or later he could present a reasonable cooperative alternative and show that not all mages were freaks and not all Templars were jerks.

I think he tried to do this honorably and with the best intentions but like many he made a big mistake or two. His biggest one by far being messing with the champion. He should have been smart enough to do what Meredith and Orsino did, leave the Champion to do what they want and try to influence her/him to help the cause. The kidnapping was a huge error. This type of error on his part actually gives rise to the people who think that he was being influenced by the blood mages.

I disagree with your BioWare conspiracy theory of trying to ignore yet another case of bad mage behavior and in any case even if it was then tough, they were a naaty bunch of mages and quite a number of bad mages groups were prancing around Kirkwall. The sooner the pro mage forces actually acknowledge this rather than making lame excuses the sooner people could actually get together and try and solve the problems on both sides.

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the vast majority of mages are locked in the Gallows, so the vast majority had no chance. There are several clean ones running the mage underground until Meredith wipes them all out. Tarohne's group consisted of five people. The Starkhaven mages and Huon were twisted by their time in the Gallows. Gascard does do the right thing in the crunch period, or at least he did in my game.

Did you miss the quest that Orsino sends you on to investigate the mages that are disappearing from the circle at night and not coming back for days?

Did you miss the roaving bands of blood mages in act 3?

Tevinter slavers on a few occasions, the chick that wants to put down Fenris.

Gaspard and Quentin.

Next play through I'l make a proper list perhaps.

[Beerfish]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Thrask, though a nice guy and an idealist could easily have been dismissed as having a massive conflict of interest in the whole affair due to what happened to his daughter. As a knight commander I would quickly and probably very successfully paint him as a Templar that fell from grace (yea pun!) because of his daughters situation. Being a charismatic fellow he influenced other templars to join him and did indeed consort with blood mages.

Technically Meredith and Cullen fall into that because of their past experiences.

Thrask was right though. If Templars and Mages worked together the Circles would be a better place.

The problem is the Chantry focuses on a fervent belief in the Maker and then preaches that magic is a curse to Templars, Mages, and citizens alike. This inevitably makes the people believe this and will lead to more bad scenarios.

It all comes down to whether you want to believe that all bad scenarios are due to the chantry and templars or not.  I think there is more than enough evidence to support the thought that mages are indeed a danger to themsleves and others even if they are the nicest people around and have to be watched closely and have their lvies controlled to a point.  Now there are many ways this might be accomplished that make it not so hard on the mages but 'free reign' is not an option at all if you ask me.

[dragonflight288]

What do people think Thrask's goal was with his rebellion? Did I miss some in game explanation?

They were never going to talk Meredith down from her position. She was always portrayed as a zealot and I don't think criticism from a group of Templars and mages was going to do anything except get the critics in big trouble. Thrask et al. would have to be completely daft to think they were going to influence her - now, daft is a very real possibility - but then their rebellion was a failure before it got started anyway.

If they wanted Elthina or the Divine to replace Meredith, then surely well documented instances of the abuses and credible witnesses would work better than a rebellion. The Templars aren't a democracy, this wasn't a matter of getting 100 signatures on the petition before getting a vote of no confidence on the ballot.

If they wanted Meredith dead so that hopefully the next KC would be an improvement, then a couple of well placed talented assassins would have been called for. They certainly could have hired my rogueHawke for the job

So is the rebellion anything more than a plot device to get Thrask killed (thus showing sympathetic Templars get whacked by crazy mages) and someone you care about kidnapped by said crazy mage?

If it's just the Grace Plot Railroad - final stop - then why should the player care?

Quick problem with the peaceful route with a petition. By that point, Meredith was completely insane, was the acting viscount, and the templars were trying to take over the guard. Elthina was steadfast in remaining neutral. She didn't speak out against Meredith's nose-to-the-grindstone ways, nor did she criticize Orsino for his aggravating the situation (he nearly started an revolt by preaching in the square against Meredith). And at the end, when the templars refuse to follow Meredith's orders to kill Hawke, she accused them ALL of working with blood mages or being influenced by them and tried to kill everyone.

Meredith was nuts, power-hungry, and paranoid. She wouldn't go down without a fight. Any attempt to remove her, any peaceful petition, she would classify as blood magic and have everyone executed.

[TEWR]

Beerfish wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Thrask, though a nice guy and an idealist could easily have been dismissed as having a massive conflict of interest in the whole affair due to what happened to his daughter. As a knight commander I would quickly and probably very successfully paint him as a Templar that fell from grace (yea pun!) because of his daughters situation. Being a charismatic fellow he influenced other templars to join him and did indeed consort with blood mages.

Technically Meredith and Cullen fall into that because of their past experiences.

Thrask was right though. If Templars and Mages worked together the Circles would be a better place.

The problem is the Chantry focuses on a fervent belief in the Maker and then preaches that magic is a curse to Templars, Mages, and citizens alike. This inevitably makes the people believe this and will lead to more bad scenarios.

It all comes down to whether you want to believe that all bad scenarios are due to the chantry and templars or not.  I think there is more than enough evidence to support the thought that mages are indeed a danger to themsleves and others even if they are the nicest people around and have to be watched closely and have their lvies controlled to a point.  Now there are many ways this might be accomplished that make it not so hard on the mages but 'free reign' is not an option at all if you ask me.

No one on this thread has ever suggested that. We've advocated that mages should be given more freedom. Not total, but more than what they have. The Circle should be an institute of learning, not a prison that serves a dual purpose of teaching the mages. Here's what I propose:

• You send a mage to the Circle, but allow him to bid a farewell to his family instead of tearing him away from them in chains.
  
• You take his blood for a phylactery, in the event that he becomes an Abomination at some point and escapes your grasp.
  
• You explain to him that his magic is a gift, but one that should be used wisely. With great power comes great responsibility. But do NOT tell him that his gift is also a curse from the Maker. This may cause him to actually believe that (Kelli). Like Anders said "If magic is a curse from the Maker, then why does he continue to give us this gift?"
  
• You educate him on how to properly use his powers over the course of years. You also tell him the Dalish way of defending against demons, which is to only believe in yourself. And when he reaches an appropriate age/level of mastery/whatever, you send him through his Harrowing. A combination of the Dalish's way and the Circle's way would prove more effective.
  
• Once he passes, you tell him that he is now able to leave the Circle, but must go to a village or city that has Templars and establish regular contact with them. Aside from that, he's free to live a normal life as a citizen (family and everything). Additionally, you could tell him that he could stay if he wanted to.

That's just a rough idea, and kinks and bugs may need to be worked out.

Anyway, it's definitely an amalgam (I love that word) of Mages/Templars/Chantry, because there will always be truly bad mages (Danarius, Uldred, and Quentin). There will always be Templars who abuse their power (Alrik, Karras, Lieutenant who tortured a Dalish child).

The problem is in the Chantry's dogmatic beliefs and how they recruit Templars, as I've said before.

“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry”


http://social.biowar...index/7212734/2 (go to this thread and somewhere near the bottom I give an analysis on the Chantry.)

The Chantry needs to be removed from the political arena, especially since the seat of power is in Orlais, where "The Game" (you just lost it =P) is always present. Separation of church and state needs to be enacted.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 mai 2011 - 09:39 .

[GavrielKay]

Beerfish wrote...

I disagree with your BioWare conspiracy theory of trying to ignore yet another case of bad mage behavior and in any case even if it was then tough, they were a naaty bunch of mages and quite a number of bad mages groups were prancing around Kirkwall. The sooner the pro mage forces actually acknowledge this rather than making lame excuses the sooner people could actually get together and try and solve the problems on both sides.

I wasn't confirming or denying the conspiracy theory, merely wondering if there were more to the rebellion than showcasing Grace.  After reading your post, I still don't see how Thrask would have hoped to succeed.  Meredith was never going to step down on her own and the people who may have been able to force her to leave were more likely to be influenced by things other than a cooperative of mages and Templars in rebellion. 

I never got the impression that Elthina was actively evil - only incompetent or indecisive or willfully blind to the extent of the atrocities going on in the Gallows.  I figure if Thrask wanted to get Meredith out, his best path would be to gather up a mass of irrefutable evidence against Meredith and present it in such a way that Elthina couldn't shrug it off.  Threaten Elthina's comfortable little fantasy that everything would work itself out.

I don't think the pro-mage debaters deny that there are bad mages.  For me it's more about whether the mages we see are representative of the circle population.  Tarohne and Quentin and Idunna are all free mages doing bad things, I don't question that at all.  They should be dealt with severely.  Grace and apparently Orsino are circle mages doing bad things.  They get theirs in the end too.

We know the Kirkwall circle houses hundreds of mages (it was already hundreds even before the Starkhave mages joined them)  And we know that most law abiding mages will still be in the Gallows because it's illegal to run away.  So, good mages stay put, bad mages try to get out - thus the ones we encounter at large are almost certainly going to be the bad ones.  That means they aren't a representative sample of the circle population.