4350 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

They can go to Rivain or the Tevinter Imperium.

I can't remember much of anything about the culture of  Rivain, but a mage not raised into the Tevinter culture and who didn't have something special to offer like Feynriel would probably just end up a slave to a magister and be at least as miserable.  From what Fenris says, the mages compete fiercely for power and position in Tevinter.  That wouldn't be a great place to go as a random nobody refugee.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

They can go to Rivain or the Tevinter Imperium.

I can't remember much of anything about the culture of  Rivain, but a mage not raised into the Tevinter culture and who didn't have something special to offer like Feynriel would probably just end up a slave to a magister and be at least as miserable.  From what Fenris says, the mages compete fiercely for power and position in Tevinter.  That wouldn't be a great place to go as a random nobody refugee.

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway, but I have trouble believing a magister would be stupid enough to leave a mage as a slave; ideally you would want your slaves not to be able to easily turn against you, which is easier from non mage populations.  The Tevinter catalogued mages through bloodlines.  I doubt a random mage would be taken for granted as such.  You may not make it to magister but you'll be better off than a slave.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Modifié par Harid, 21 mai 2011 - 12:05 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

If your "homeland" denigrates and fears you, and imprisons you,  it's not much of a loss?

Modifié par Harid, 21 mai 2011 - 12:06 .

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

Not to mention the fact a peasant trying to move a thousand miles away with no work or lodging when they get to their destination is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid."

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...

I don't care enough about this issue to go digging through this board for the last 100+ page mage freedom post on this board?

But to act like there aren't people in these arguments who feel that mages should have free reign is disingenuous.

No, it isn't.  Not when I haven't seen any evidence to back up that claim, and yet have seen plenty of pro-mage posts that refute it.  

I'm not going to pretend that no pro-mage person in existence has ever made the suggestion.  But not having seen one single such person make that assertion, and instead having seen plenty make the very opposite, it is safe and reasonable to conclude that that is a vanishingly small opinion, tiny enough to be of zero consequence.  The only time I've ever actually seen it expressed, in fact, is by pro-templars using it as a straw man.  Trying to say "but but but you can't say that no person believes that at all, you can't pretend that people who think that way don't exist at all!" is disingenuous, however.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 mai 2011 - 12:15 .

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

We know the Kirkwall circle houses hundreds of mages (it was already hundreds even before the Starkhave mages joined them)  And we know that most law abiding mages will still be in the Gallows because it's illegal to run away.  So, good mages stay put, bad mages try to get out - thus the ones we encounter at large are almost certainly going to be the bad ones.  That means they aren't a representative sample of the circle population.

And because, thanks to Chantry doctrine, many of them probably have nowhere to go, what with not knowing the whereabouts of their family or possibly having a family who despises them for being born, and may even lack any skills to exist in the outside world, having been locked up and treated as a cursed being for the entirety of their lives.

Oh, sorry, that's just my anti-Chantry bias flaring up again.  I should probably get a prescription for that...

Heh.  Yeah, the religion angle really works against the mages in Thedas.  I like the realism of mentioning that some mages take their own lives out of desperation and guilt.  Really drives home just how bad it would be to be treated as cursed and dangerous in a systematic way.  There really is no truly good choice for a mage - you can either be a prisoner or be hunted (or I suppose in rare cases, tainted a la Wardens).  And that's even when they're not being raped and tortured.

They can go to Rivain or the Tevinter Imperium.

They shouldn't have to.

[Harid]

Rifneno wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

Not to mention the fact a peasant trying to move a thousand miles away with no work or lodging when they get to their destination is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid."

A peasant staying in their homeland to be imprisoned, removed from their family, and possibly tranquiled is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid.

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

I don't care enough about this issue to go digging through this board for the last 100+ page mage freedom post on this board?

But to act like there aren't people in these arguments who feel that mages should have free reign is disingenuous.

No, it isn't.  Not when I haven't seen any evidence to back up that claim, and yet have seen plenty of pro-mage posts that refute it.  

I'm not going to pretend that no pro-mage person in existence has ever made the suggestion.  But not having seen one single such person make that assertion, and instead having seen plenty make the very opposite, it is safe and reasonable to conclude that that is a vanishingly small opinion, tiny enough to be of zero consequence.  The only time I've ever actually seen it expressed, in fact, is by pro-templars using it as a straw man.  Trying to say "but but but you can't say that no person believes that at all, you can't pretend that people who think that way don't exist at all!" is disingenuous, however.

Ha.  Now I'm glad I didn't bother responding to that.  You said it far better.

[Harid]

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

We know the Kirkwall circle houses hundreds of mages (it was already hundreds even before the Starkhave mages joined them)  And we know that most law abiding mages will still be in the Gallows because it's illegal to run away.  So, good mages stay put, bad mages try to get out - thus the ones we encounter at large are almost certainly going to be the bad ones.  That means they aren't a representative sample of the circle population.

And because, thanks to Chantry doctrine, many of them probably have nowhere to go, what with not knowing the whereabouts of their family or possibly having a family who despises them for being born, and may even lack any skills to exist in the outside world, having been locked up and treated as a cursed being for the entirety of their lives.

Oh, sorry, that's just my anti-Chantry bias flaring up again.  I should probably get a prescription for that...

Heh.  Yeah, the religion angle really works against the mages in Thedas.  I like the realism of mentioning that some mages take their own lives out of desperation and guilt.  Really drives home just how bad it would be to be treated as cursed and dangerous in a systematic way.  There really is no truly good choice for a mage - you can either be a prisoner or be hunted (or I suppose in rare cases, tainted a la Wardens).  And that's even when they're not being raped and tortured.

They can go to Rivain or the Tevinter Imperium.

They shouldn't have to.

Under the concepts of the world they live in, they are as stupid as casteless dwarves not to move.

We aren't talking about how things should be, we are talking about how things are.

Modifié par Harid, 21 mai 2011 - 12:10 .

[Rifneno]

Harid wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

Not to mention the fact a peasant trying to move a thousand miles away with no work or lodging when they get to their destination is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid."

A peasant staying in their homeland to be imprisoned, removed from their family, and possibly tranquiled is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid.

Right, because the fact that they have no good options means your completely unviable option isn't rubbish.  I don't know why all those people starving in war-torn third world countries don't just move to industrialized western nations.

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway, but I have trouble believing a magister would be stupid enough to leave a mage as a slave; ideally you would want your slaves not to be able to easily turn against you, which is easier from non mage populations.  The Tevinter catalogued mages through bloodlines.  I doubt a random mage would be taken for granted as such.  You may not make it to magister but you'll be better off than a slave.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Fenris flatly states that magisters do not hesitate to leash their own kind.  And he would know.

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

If your "homeland" denigrates and fears you, and imprisons you,  it's not much of a loss?

And this is just another argument for overthrowing the Chantry for its millenium of inhumane doctrine and corrupt practices.  What's your point?

[Harid]

Rifneno wrote...

Harid wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

Not to mention the fact a peasant trying to move a thousand miles away with no work or lodging when they get to their destination is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid."

A peasant staying in their homeland to be imprisoned, removed from their family, and possibly tranquiled is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid.

Right, because the fact that they have no good options means your completely unviable option isn't rubbish.  I don't know why all those people starving in war-torn third world countries don't just move to industrialized western nations.

A lot of them do?  Stop bringing real world comparisons into fantasy before people start comparing mages to black people again.

[Harid]

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway, but I have trouble believing a magister would be stupid enough to leave a mage as a slave; ideally you would want your slaves not to be able to easily turn against you, which is easier from non mage populations.  The Tevinter catalogued mages through bloodlines.  I doubt a random mage would be taken for granted as such.  You may not make it to magister but you'll be better off than a slave.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Fenris flatly states that magisters do not hesitate to leash their own kind.  And he would know.

Then they could go to Rivain.

[Harid]

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

If your "homeland" denigrates and fears you, and imprisons you,  it's not much of a loss?

And this is just another argument for overthrowing the Chantry for its millenium of inhumane doctrine and corrupt practices.  What's your point?

You are thinking from the sides of mages, not from the side of everyone else, which is why we got such stupid dialogue about the issue in DA2 as is.

The Chantry is going to persist in a world like Dragon Age, because if you are a poor dirt farmer, you need a crutch to keep you are a poor dirt farmer instead of leading to anarchy.  Religion will always exist as a system of control until such control is no longer needed.  Even if mages somehow tore down the chantry, the Maker and the chantry would persist.  So, to put it plainly, that's not going to happen.  At worse it'll splinter but still be there, and possibly controlled worse by horrible people.

Modifié par Harid, 21 mai 2011 - 12:20 .

[TEWR]

as long as they avoid the Qunari section sure. Or the Chasind. Or even the Dalish if they're elven. Pol was still a devout Andrastian when he fled, but they still accepted him.

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

We know the Kirkwall circle houses hundreds of mages (it was already hundreds even before the Starkhave mages joined them)  And we know that most law abiding mages will still be in the Gallows because it's illegal to run away.  So, good mages stay put, bad mages try to get out - thus the ones we encounter at large are almost certainly going to be the bad ones.  That means they aren't a representative sample of the circle population.

And because, thanks to Chantry doctrine, many of them probably have nowhere to go, what with not knowing the whereabouts of their family or possibly having a family who despises them for being born, and may even lack any skills to exist in the outside world, having been locked up and treated as a cursed being for the entirety of their lives.

Oh, sorry, that's just my anti-Chantry bias flaring up again.  I should probably get a prescription for that...

Heh.  Yeah, the religion angle really works against the mages in Thedas.  I like the realism of mentioning that some mages take their own lives out of desperation and guilt.  Really drives home just how bad it would be to be treated as cursed and dangerous in a systematic way.  There really is no truly good choice for a mage - you can either be a prisoner or be hunted (or I suppose in rare cases, tainted a la Wardens).  And that's even when they're not being raped and tortured.

They can go to Rivain or the Tevinter Imperium.

They shouldn't have to.

Under the concepts of the world they live in, they are as stupid as casteless dwarves not to move.

We aren't talking about how things should be, we are talking about how things are.

Are we?  Because I'm honestly not sure what the hell it is you're trying to talk about.

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

And this is just another argument for overthrowing the Chantry for its millenium of inhumane doctrine and corrupt practices.  What's your point?

I just came up with the perfect plan!  We convince the Chantry that Sandal is a stocky midget mage rather than a dwarf.  The templars will be wiped out within hours!

Harid wrote...

A lot of them do?  Stop bringing real world comparisons into fantasy before people start comparing mages to black people again.

So we can't use comparisons to real things, thus removing everything we know about logic and human nature, because otherwise someone might make a comparison you don't like. That makes sense.

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

Harid wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Which leaves driven from your homeland for being a mage.  Still not a great system.

Not to mention the fact a peasant trying to move a thousand miles away with no work or lodging when they get to their destination is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid."

A peasant staying in their homeland to be imprisoned, removed from their family, and possibly tranquiled is...  okay I don't know how to sugar coat "stupid.

Right, because the fact that they have no good options means your completely unviable option isn't rubbish.  I don't know why all those people starving in war-torn third world countries don't just move to industrialized western nations.

*waves hand wildly about* I know, I know!  Because everyone always has choices!  No matter how bad off you are, you...always...have...a...choice!

So it's just your own damn fault that life sucks, since you didn't try to make it better.

[Harid]

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

We know the Kirkwall circle houses hundreds of mages (it was already hundreds even before the Starkhave mages joined them)  And we know that most law abiding mages will still be in the Gallows because it's illegal to run away.  So, good mages stay put, bad mages try to get out - thus the ones we encounter at large are almost certainly going to be the bad ones.  That means they aren't a representative sample of the circle population.

And because, thanks to Chantry doctrine, many of them probably have nowhere to go, what with not knowing the whereabouts of their family or possibly having a family who despises them for being born, and may even lack any skills to exist in the outside world, having been locked up and treated as a cursed being for the entirety of their lives.

Oh, sorry, that's just my anti-Chantry bias flaring up again.  I should probably get a prescription for that...

Heh.  Yeah, the religion angle really works against the mages in Thedas.  I like the realism of mentioning that some mages take their own lives out of desperation and guilt.  Really drives home just how bad it would be to be treated as cursed and dangerous in a systematic way.  There really is no truly good choice for a mage - you can either be a prisoner or be hunted (or I suppose in rare cases, tainted a la Wardens).  And that's even when they're not being raped and tortured.

They can go to Rivain or the Tevinter Imperium.

They shouldn't have to.

Under the concepts of the world they live in, they are as stupid as casteless dwarves not to move.

We aren't talking about how things should be, we are talking about how things are.

Are we?  Because I'm honestly not sure what the hell it is you're trying to talk about.

That's fantastic.  I'll be sure not to bother keeping up dialogue with you.

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...


A lot of them do?  Stop bringing real world comparisons into fantasy before people start comparing mages to black people again.

A lot of them do, great.  But that says absolutely...nothing...about those who don't.  Real world comparisons are inevitable, and frankly that was a damn good one.  It isn't our fault that it ruins your argument.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 mai 2011 - 12:24 .

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway, but I have trouble believing a magister would be stupid enough to leave a mage as a slave; ideally you would want your slaves not to be able to easily turn against you, which is easier from non mage populations.  The Tevinter catalogued mages through bloodlines.  I doubt a random mage would be taken for granted as such.  You may not make it to magister but you'll be better off than a slave.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Fenris flatly states that magisters do not hesitate to leash their own kind.  And he would know.

Then they could go to Rivain.

Or they could be killed by highwaymen en route.  Drop the "they could do x" crap, please.  The Chantry COULD stop treating mages like they're cursed beings.  There's a lot more logic behind that than expecting people to uproot themselves when they may not have the means to do so.

[Harid]

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...


A lot of them do?  Stop bringing real world comparisons into fantasy before people start comparing mages to black people again.

A lot of them do, great.  But that says absolutely...nothing...about those who don't.  Real world comparisons are inevitable, and frankly that was a damn good one.  It isn't our fault that it ruins your argument.

I have trouble feeling sorry for people who, in a bad situation aren't attempting to make their lives better, sorry.

Mages have a choice.  Trying to bring down the chantry when you have no power to so is more farfetched than moving to Rivian.  It's just as stupid, reckless and impossible.  Tell me how some dirt farming apostate without Bioware plot magic is going to bring down the chantry?  Going to reform the chantry for more rights?  Going to allow mages to see their families?  Why they heck should the chantry listen to this dirt farming apostate?  Why would they when the common man fears mages, and a mage revolution is only going to reinforce those fears?

It's nice to want random things to happen, but mages are not  a large part of the general population, and do not have the power as that large minority to really do anything.  So why should or more specifically, why would the chantry listen to them?

The catholic church for, example, is telling people in Africa not to use condoms.  There is no massive flight of people out of africa to change religion, no one is trying to tear the papacy down.  People without power are trying to get them to change their policies, and they do not listen.  Why?  Because people without power are telling them to change their policies.  And as long as that happens, they can keep spouting bull**** and people will eat it up.  And the chantry works the same way.  As long as every single country, outside of Rivian let the chantry do whatever they please, they will keep doing so, and as long as mages don't have regular people backing their less than 10% minority, they will not be able to change anything.  So this change is a greater longshot than saving money to move.

[Harid]

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Harid wrote...

If you are a talentless nobody anywhere, you won't get far at all anyway, but I have trouble believing a magister would be stupid enough to leave a mage as a slave; ideally you would want your slaves not to be able to easily turn against you, which is easier from non mage populations.  The Tevinter catalogued mages through bloodlines.  I doubt a random mage would be taken for granted as such.  You may not make it to magister but you'll be better off than a slave.

You spoke about being free of persection and ostracization, and in those two places, you won't be persecuted or ostracised for being a mage.

Fenris flatly states that magisters do not hesitate to leash their own kind.  And he would know.

Then they could go to Rivain.

Or they could be killed by highwaymen en route.  Drop the "they could do x" crap, please.  The Chantry COULD stop treating mages like they're cursed beings.  There's a lot more logic behind that than expecting people to uproot themselves when they may not have the means to do so.

I suppose freedom is not a great enough incentive for you, because people cross shark infested waters in THIS world for freedom.  Cross land mine covered land in THIS world for freedom.  Cross thousands of miles in THIS world for freedom.  Hoping on what the chantry COULD do is as stupid as what people themselves COULD do.

As a matter of fact, it's more stupid because you are depending on others doing something than you yourself doing something.  If you are a talentless enough mage to not be able to defend yourself against highwaymen for your own freedom, then you probably weren't going to make it far in life anyway.

Modifié par Harid, 21 mai 2011 - 12:40 .