4350 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally prefer tight regulation and esoterism over the forbidding of blood magic or other kinds of dangerous magic.

I believe the study and knowledge of blood magic is more likely to wield better ways to resist it than refusing to study it. The ancient Tevinter Imperium could not have expanded and maintain an oligarchy for so long if the magisters didn't know how to deal with blood magic and demons.

Then why regulate it at all? I'd simpy prefer doing things the Tevinter way.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

When Thrask happily helped Grace escape in Act 1?

His goal isn't to allow them to escape, his goal is to make them come to the Circle before they get killed. He assists Hawke in letting them escape because Karras would've killed them otherwise.

[Dave of Canada]

The Baconer wrote...

Then why regulate it at all? I'd simpy prefer doing things the Tevinter way.

Because I heavily doubt the none-mages would enjoy opening that can of worms.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

When Thrask happily helped Grace escape in Act 1?

His goal isn't to allow them to escape, his goal is to make them come to the Circle before they get killed. He assists Hawke in letting them escape because Karras would've killed them otherwise.

But Karras is killed, and then he helps them escape anyway.

[The Baconer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because I heavily doubt the none-mages would enjoy opening that can of worms.

Understandable, but they're mundane-ness puts them naturally lower on the pecking order anyway.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

But Karras is killed, and then he helps them escape anyway.

Odd, he took them back to the Circle in my playthrough.

The Baconer wrote...

Understandable, but they're mundane-ness puts them naturally lower on the pecking order anyway. 

Have you seen Templar-Hunters? Those guys are far from mundane, they'd probably solo mage armies. (I keed, I keed.)

[TEWR]

The Baconer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Make him Tranquil then give him a slow death.

Shouldn't he be made tranquil after long periods of... Discomfort?

He'd probably enjoy it unless you make it incredibly painful and unbearable.

So painful discomfort, Tranquility, then slow death

[Xilizhra]

Odd, he took them back to the Circle in my playthrough.

Did you kill Karras?

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
And in addition to the thin veil you have the circle's size being bloated due to the Starkhaven mages, the Resolutionists making trouble, the Qunari attack, the refugees, the Crazy-times idol ... there's so much going on in Kirkwall that contributes to the problems

Most of those events wouldn't have mattered if Meredith did not involve herself in politics and thought that she could police Kirkwall. Kirkwall would have probably suffered, but I think a more competent KC would have been able to stabilize the mage situation or at the very least, make it less bad.

I could say just as easily that if it weren't for the Qunari, the Blight and the fire at Starkhaven things would have been more stable even with Meredith as Knight-Commander. The templars were in that role, and those events do matter when considering what happens to Kirkwall on a whole. That she never should have been in that position to begin with doesn't change that. And I'm not confident a different Knight-Commander could have done that much better with all else staying the same.

The resolve of the resolutionists, or at least the underground support they had, is in large part strengthened by Meredith's clumsiness. As for the Starkhaven mages, again, Chantry incompetence for them to think that Meredith can handle even more pressure. Would have been considerably smarter to divide them up and send a few to each circle, rather than burden the most contested Circle in Thedas in a dangerous political climate (Templars usurping power). 

If I understand the timeline right, the problems in the circle only really started around the time the Starkhaven mages were added to the Gallows. Strictly speaking, this was also before the Templars had usurped power, they just had a lot more influence than they were supposed to. Even if all the Starkhaven mages did go to Kirkwall (I'm not sure about this.) Kirkwall was the closest Circle and also under the jurisdiction of the same Grand Cleric. I think it would be safer and more practical to send them there than to split them up and ship them overseas or over long distances by land. It wasn't a bad decision. Just one that contributed to the overall problem.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote..
Except when they both join an organized rebellion against the Circle; hell, Thrask is leading it. Greagoir never would do either.

Thrask isn't rebelling against the Circle. He's rebelling against Meredith.

If you listen to Kieran in Act III, he explictly says they're not trying to overthrow the Circle. In fact, they want to make the Circle work "as it should," and that gives you Gregoire and Irving.

Silfren wrote...
For my part, no, I don't consider the act of
banning a school of magic from being studied to be inherently immoral,
though I definitely find it to be stupidly short-sighted.  However, I do
find it extremely immoral to ban a school of magic and then leave books
on that subject lying around for the purpose of entrapping hapless
apprentices.

But that's Irving's work, not Gregoire's. He makes it pretty clear he does it to remove dangerous elements from the Circle. Moreover, he entraps Jowan to punish the Chantry.

Irving is a clever, clever politian but Jowan's fate is more his doing than it is Gregoire's, if you're going to focus on the bait.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Wasn't
my inent to question your argument, just throwing my 2 cents.

But
no, I don't think it's "evil". Then again, I avoid using words like
"good" and evil" as a general rule and prefer to use more objective
terms.

As a rule, I don't want to either. But this debate has become very polarized. If we were arguing something other than whether the firebombing of the Chantry was justified, I'd very likely be on the other side. But out and out terrorism is something that's very hard to justify, especially when there were much better options.

[Xilizhra]

If you listen to Kieran in Act III, he explictly says they're not trying to overthrow the Circle. In fact, they want to make the Circle work "as it should," and that gives you Gregoire and Irving.

I do hope that Thrask and Keran wouldn't maintain the suicide rate.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
I do hope that Thrask and Keran wouldn't maintain the suicide rate.

It's very likely there's not much they can do about that. The lot of a mage is not great; being essentially under house arrest your whole life leads to mental breakdowns.

That's why the Circle desperately needs reform. But reform =! justifying the whackjob behaviour of Anders.

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I do hope that Thrask and Keran wouldn't maintain the suicide rate.

It's very likely there's not much they can do about that. The lot of a mage is not great; being essentially under house arrest your whole life leads to mental breakdowns.

That's why the Circle desperately needs reform. But reform =! justifying the whackjob behaviour of Anders.

If the only way to reform the Circle is the behavior of Anders...

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
If the only way to reform the Circle is the behavior of Anders...

But it isn't. For one, Anders's way meant the genocide of the Kirkwall Circle (complete or otherwise).

More generally, we actually have no idea what the state of the war is and how extreme either side is. The mages are most likely pushing for the abolition of the Circle as a whole if not for their independence as a people. The templars, for all we know, what to extent to Rite of Annulment to every mage in Thedas beside Tevinter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
I could say just as easily that if it weren't for the Qunari, the Blight and the fire at Starkhaven things would have been more stable even with Meredith as Knight-Commander.

No, you can't, because Meredith succeeded in alienating Kirkwall in Act 2 (and before that), which severily undermined her efforts, and it has little to do with the above.

She might have fared a bit better, but she would remain as incompetent as she was. She would have probably moved on Dumar and the nobles smart enough to realize what was going on eventually.

If I understand the timeline right, the problems in the circle only really started around the time the Starkhaven mages were added to the Gallows. Strictly speaking, this was also before the Templars had usurped power, they just had a lot more influence than they were supposed to.

Their alienation of the populace made it worse and gave the Resolutionists the power they needed. The alienation is due to Meredith's heavy handedness and usurpation of power.

I think it would be safer and more practical to send them there than to split them up and ship them overseas or over long distances by land.

No, it's stupid to send them to Kirkwall that has obvious political problems. With a KC that is clearly not suited for the quite delicate job of handling a lot of mages and at the same time preventing them from joining the Resolutionist cause. Dividing them up would severily weaken them on the other hand without over-burdening any one circle.

And seeing how Elthina is a joke, giving her even more responsabilities is also an idiotic move.

It wasn't a bad decision. Just one that contributed to the overall problem.

Which is exactly why it is a bad decision as no one decides something without understanding the given context.

Which is why clearly, the Chantry is run by idiots.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mai 2011 - 10:53 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
I could say just as easily that if it weren't for the Qunari, the Blight and the fire at Starkhaven things would have been more stable even with Meredith as Knight-Commander.

No, you can't, because Meredith succeeded in alienating Kirkwall in Act 2 (and before that), which severily undermined her efforts, and it has little to do with the above.

She might have fared a bit better, but she would remain as incompetent as she was.

I said more stable as in, no, the Divine would not be seriously considering an Exalted March.

The Blight and the inlux of Fereldan refugees was a problem the city guard, and weak Viscount were unable to handle.The Qunari attack and the death of the Viscount is what allowed her to take almost complete
control of Kirkwall. The Starkhaven fire introduced a group of subversive blood mages into the Circle. All of these things contributed to the situation. And yes, the crazy idol too, which I mentioned in my previous post.

She would have probably moved on Dumar and the nobles smart enough to realize what was going on eventually.

That's a bit of an assumption, and one that requires Meredith to have motives we don't see in the game. She has a hero complex, she fears mages and wants to protect the world from them, she will use any means she has available to do it. I don't see her eliminating Dumar unless he gets in the way of her goal. And he's much too spineless to ever take a stand against Meredith.

If I understand the timeline right, the problems in the circle only really started around the time the Starkhaven mages were added to the Gallows. Strictly speaking, this was also before the Templars had usurped power, they just had a lot more influence than they were supposed to.

Their alienation of the populace made it worse and gave the Resolutionists the power they needed. The alienation is due to Meredith's heavy handedness and usurpation of power.

I think it would be safer and more practical to send them there than to split them up and ship them overseas or over long distances by land.

No, it's stupid to send them to Kirkwall that has obvious political problems. With a KC that is clearly not suited for the quite delicate job of handling a lot of mages and at the same time preventing them from joining the Resolutionist cause. Dividing them up would severily weaken them on the other hand without over-burdening any one circle.

But the Resolutionists don't make an appearance until Act III, possibly Act II, with the Mage Underground. (Or possibly with the Starkhaven mages) In Act I, the government was still stable. The Templar's carried more authority than they should have, the common man wasn't overly fond of them, but the system wasn't broken. Not yet.

And seeing how Elthina is a joke, giving her even more responsabilities is also an idiotic move.

Starkhaven was already her responsibility.

Modifié par Deztyn, 22 mai 2011 - 11:42 .

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

That's why the Circle desperately needs reform. But reform =! justifying the whackjob behaviour of Anders.

Reform in general may not necessarily need an act of terrorism to get moving, but in this case...  It has been 1000 years after all.  Whether you agree he should have done it or not, it isn't too hard to imagine why Anders felt something extreme was called for.

What was supposed to have given the mages the idea that there was bargaining to be done?  The Chantry holds all the power and seems to be run by folks who either agree with the extremists or can't be bothered to do anything about them.  The mages can't just demand a peaceful solution from people who have no interest in giving it to them.

[ipgd]

In Exile wrote...

But it isn't. For one, Anders's way meant the genocide of the Kirkwall Circle (complete or otherwise).

Considering the Circle has been the way it is for a thousand years, that's questionable.

Pretty much any revolutionary movement comes with a heavy dose of bloodshed. Often times, even peaceful revolutionists owe their success to the previous progress spurned by terrorists that moved society to a point where they could even speak without being silenced.

[dragonflight288]

If you want to speak about the evils of blowing up the chantry, maybe we should go back in time and talk about the evils of Andraste and the first exalted march against the Tevinter Imperium. Someone always has to take the first steps, and that first step is rarely peaceful. How long had the Imperium been in power in southern Thedas before Andraste? How long has the Chantry been in power since?

People with power always want more power. They will never willingly give it up if they had it for such a long period of time as either side has. Peaceful solutions have been tried, mages and templars under Thrask were acting to remove Meredith in the hope of making things better and next to no bloodshed. One insane mage ruined it, but I cannot think of any other time mages and templars ever worked together. They fought together for a common cause.

And in this rebellion, there are mages who are loyalists, and if the chantry says something then they follow it too the letter. They may likely work with the templars. And there are templars who feel sympathetic to mages, and may want to help them. But a single, extreme act has provoked a war that may or may not be clear cut on morality. History is written by the victors, after all. If the mages win and secure their independence from the chantry, centuries later may call them heroes and in the Maker's sight because of the corruption chantry.

If the Templars win the war, it will be remembered differently.

[In Exile]

ipgd wrote...
Considering the Circle has been the way it is for a thousand years, that's questionable.

That all the mages in Kirkwall killed in the Rite of Annulemnt were killed as a result of what Anders did isn't in question. Elthina refused to enact the Rite of Annulment. She told Meredith to stuff it. Meredith was going to her to plead for her to change her mind. When Anders blew up the Chantry, that placed all the cards in Meredith's hands.

Explain to me, please, how it is questionale that what Anders did led to the Rite.

Now, could something else also have led to the Rite? Absolutely. But Anders wanted that outcome. You can accuse him of condeming every mage in Kirkwall to death and he says he knows what his actions will mean and that they are worth it.

Pretty much any revolutionary movement comes with a heavy dose of bloodshed. Often times, even peaceful revolutionists owe their success to the previous progress spurned by terrorists that moved society to a point where they could even speak without being silenced.

Except that the mages could speak without being silenced. In fact, mages had an entire conference on being independent that wasn't silenced.

But let me address your point directly: that revolutions involve bloodshed. You're presuming that I believe revolutions are morally justified. Not saying I don't, but you're taking that for granted and that's a debate in itself.

There is a difference between a revolution being justified, a belief that the blood spilled is for a greater cause, and murdering innocents and forcing war.

The mages did not rise up in Kirkwall. Anders fanned the flames until the templars were ready to massacre every mage in Kirkwall.

Now, did the other Circles rise up? Absolutely. But how the actual revolution went down, and what Anders did, are not the same thing at all.

GavrielKay wrote...
Reform in general may not necessarily need
an act of terrorism to get moving, but in this case...  It has been
1000 years after all.  Whether you agree he should have done it or not,
it isn't too hard to imagine why Anders felt something extreme was
called for.

But something extreme =! murdering, effectively, civilians. He had secret tunnels and super magic. He could have tried to have Meredith assasinated. Given what Thrask was doing, he could have tried to work with other mages to organize an actual rebellion.

I'm not debating the morality of the mage uprising - that's an entire debate altoghether, and I think that with the Chantry being as unwilling to meet mages half-way that the reality is that a revolution was unavoidable. But the neccesity for change does not justify Anders's actions themselves.

What was supposed to have given the mages the idea
that there was bargaining to be done?  The Chantry holds all the power
and seems to be run by folks who either agree with the extremists or
can't be bothered to do anything about them.  The mages can't just
demand a peaceful solution from people who have no interest in giving it
to them.

Even if all of that was true, like I said above, there are plenty of other revolutionary methods that are women (why the hell would I write women? Don't know what I was thinking but I'm leaving that here for hilarity) justified. Many of which can involve killing the actually guilty. As it is, Anders made sure to let every killer and rapist unharmed.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 mai 2011 - 02:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...

The Blight and the inlux of Fereldan refugees was a problem the city guard,and weak Viscount were unable to handle.The Qunari attack and the death of the Viscount is what allowed her to take almost complete
control of Kirkwall.

Irrelevent to the mage question. The state of Kirkwall as a city-state is not what we are talking about here and should be of little concern to a KC. It only becomes relevent once the KC involved herself in those concerns, which is a key root of the problem.
Furthermore, they were the ones to put a weak Viscount in the first place.

An influx on refugees has no bearing at all in the mage question. Neither did the Qunari invasion. What it did was pave the way for Meredith to be even more incompetent.

And yes, the crazy idol too, which I mentioned in my previous post.

I don't really care, at the end of the day, the Chantry watched by and did nothing for 7 years. 3 if you want to include the idol. This is no longer an efficient institution. It can't oversee the only organization that it is meant to oversee.

That's a bit of an assumption, and one that requires Meredith to have motives we don't see in the game. She has a hero complex, she fears mages and wants to protect the world from them, she will use any means she has available to do it. I don't see her eliminating Dumar unless he gets in the way of her goal. And he's much too spineless to ever take a stand against Meredith.

If she gets consummed by paranoia and thinks Kirkwall is falling to mages, I can see her wanting to get rid of Dumar, or wanting to get rid of those around him and the guards even if the Qunari invasion never happened. I dont' see the nobility accpetign the status quo forever.

Whether it's due to the idol or not, we are not dealing with a stable and sane woman here.

But the Resolutionists don't make an appearance until Act III, possibly Act II, with the Mage Underground. (Or possibly with the Starkhaven mages) In Act I, the government was still stable. The Templar's carried more authority than they should have, the common man wasn't overly fond of them, but the system wasn't broken. Not yet.

The roots of the problem were already there in Act 1.
A glass hanging off a table by a few centimeters is not broken yet either. All it takes is one push.

Starkhaven was already her responsibility.

One she obviously can't handle.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If you want to speak about the evils of blowing up the chantry, maybe we should go back in time and talk about the evils of Andraste and the first exalted march against the Tevinter Imperium. Someone always has to take the first steps, and that first step is rarely peaceful. How long had the Imperium been in power in southern Thedas before Andraste? How long has the Chantry been in power since?

What about it? For one, historically speaking, that was as much an expansionist miltiary campaign as it was any sort of revolution. More generally, at least as far as we know (and certainly war itself is horrible), Andraste did not start her campaign by blowing up a temple to the Old Gods.

People with power always want more power. They will never willingly give it up if they had it for such a long period of time as either side has. Peaceful solutions have been tried, mages and templars under Thrask were acting to remove Meredith in the hope of making things better and next to no bloodshed. One insane mage ruined it, but I cannot think of any other time mages and templars ever worked together. They fought together for a common cause.

Yes - they had their own insurrection. And we couldn't actually take part in it (yay choice!). But the mage insurrection by Thrask et al. did not actually (aside from the one kidnapping) target innoncents. All it sought to do was remove Meredith.

And in this rebellion, there are mages who are loyalists, and if the chantry says something then they follow it too the letter. They may likely work with the templars. And there are templars who feel sympathetic to mages, and may want to help them. But a single, extreme act has provoked a war that may or may not be clear cut on morality. History is written by the victors, after all. If the mages win and secure their independence from the chantry, centuries later may call them heroes and in the Maker's sight because of the corruption chantry.

If the Templars win the war, it will be remembered differently.

Revolutions are, by their very nature, fickle and dangerous. But I'm just talking about the actions of Anders, and the morality of the Chantry firebombing.

I would certainly agree that the Chantry as a whole and Elthina herself are complicit in enabling the abuses of Meredith and her ilk. But there is a tremendous difference between enabling as a result of inaction and incompetence (or through lack of oversight) and actively perpretating and supporting these individuals.

Meredith has at the very least created a culture where mages cannot report abuses. She performs the rite of tranquility on harrowed mages. She has rapist and abuses in her midsts. Blame should fall on the guilty. Yet Anders did not target her. And he did not target those guilty. Just as he was ready to kill an innocent mage for questioning him. That's what I'm objecting to. Not the idea that the Circle (at the very least) needs to be reformed and that mages need significant freedoms or that the revolution, as is, was justified. But Ander's actions specifically went too far.

[Plaintiff]

It's pretty obvious why Anders doesn't target the Templars directly.

1) Their barracks are IN the Gallows, where the mages live. Blowing up the Gallows would defeat his purpose, expecting him to do that is just stupid. Even if he could control the size of the explosion, there is no way to guarantee the safety of the mages, and they need to be alive so they can defend themselves when Meredith flips her ****.

2) He has no idea who the guilty individuals are. He only knows of Alrik, who is (probably) dead.

3) The Chantry is at the root of the problem, ultimately. Killing the Templars will affect nothing, long-term. The Chantry can just send more. It is the Chantry that needs to be attacked and weakened if lasting change is to occur.

As for killing Ella, Justice clearly had control and if you pay any attention to the dialogue, it's clear that Justice thinks she's a templar. She doesn't just 'question' him, she says "Get away from me, demon!" (way to be grateful to the guy who just saved you from getting tranquilied and raped, by the way).

Justice's response is "I am no demon! Are you one of them (a templar), that you would call me such?" We already know that being called a demon is one of Justice's hot buttons, and her inability to tell a demon from a spirit could be considered evidence that she is a Templar, and thus a sworn enemy.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[dragonflight288]

Revolutions are, by their very nature, fickle and dangerous. But I'm just talking about the actions of Anders, and the morality of the Chantry firebombing.

I would certainly agree that the Chantry as a whole and Elthina herself are complicit in enabling the abuses of Meredith and her ilk. But there is a tremendous difference between enabling as a result of inaction and incompetence (or through lack of oversight) and actively perpretating and supporting these individuals.

Meredith has at the very least created a culture where mages cannot report abuses. She performs the rite of tranquility on harrowed mages. She has rapist and abuses in her midsts. Blame should fall on the guilty. Yet Anders did not target her. And he did not target those guilty. Just as he was ready to kill an innocent mage for questioning him. That's what I'm objecting to. Not the idea that the Circle (at the very least) needs to be reformed and that mages need significant freedoms or that the revolution, as is, was justified. But Ander's actions specifically went too far.

You make good, debatable points. The point I was making is that no matter what happens, the winner will write the history of all this. And Anders/Justice does threaten a lot of people. But, as Plaintiff mentions, Justice had control while attacking Ella.

But I also think that Justice is not even considering his and Anders...exceptional circumstances. Anders and Justice voluntarily merged. I can't think of any other example where a fade spirit and a human both agreed to merge. In Wynne's case she was dying and the spirit pulled her back, what Anders did was a conscious decision.

How would Ella know that? How would any mage that didn't know Anders? Their whole experience with abominations are humans making stupid deals with demons or being forcibly possessed by one.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that Anders and Justice have a single perspective limited to a certain viewpoint. Anders and his view that everyone hates mages because they're mages, and Justice with the view of ultimate Justice...or vengeance in the case of templars. They aren't really thinking about other viewpoints.

Plaintiff made some good points for not attacking the gallows. Meredith's office is right across the hall from Orsino's after all. Blowing up one will likely blow up the other.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
For my part, no, I don't consider the act of banning a school of magic from being studied to be inherently immoral,
though I definitely find it to be stupidly short-sighted.  However, I do find it extremely immoral to ban a school of magic and then leave books on that subject lying around for the purpose of entrapping hapless apprentices.

But that's Irving's work, not Gregoire's. He makes it pretty clear he does it to remove dangerous elements from the Circle. Moreover, he entraps Jowan to punish the Chantry.

Irving is a clever, clever politian but Jowan's fate is more his doing than it is Gregoire's, if you're going to focus on the bait.

Oh, I'm aware it was Irving's idea...although honestly, I can easily picture Greagoir being part of that whole plan.  Even without any evidence for it, Irving and Greagoir seemed to be able to work together more or less, even if they did obviously clash.  (I don't especially have any opinion on whether Greagoir knew about that, I just can see it both ways). I'm not particularly concerned with who was responsible for that practice, I still find it despicable.  I mentioned it mainly as an aside, not part and parcel the overall point.