4350 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

Drachasor wrote...


That's certainly true, but what are you going to do about it?  This would be like abolitionists before the American Civil War bombing southern Churches whose ministers quoted bible passages that endorse slavery.  It's absolutely INSANE on many levels.

Its not if the same. The chantry are the superiors of the templars. They are in command and serve the templars logistically  with lyrium

First, you are going to kill a lot of innocents. 

Sometimes thats neccesary.

Second, it is going to provoke a reactionary response, cementing opposition more firmly than anything else could. 

Depends. The people see the chantry as protectors. But if they fail in this and if you ad additional influences from the tevinter and the qunari the entire system may collapse.

Third, it isn't going to get rid of those beliefs...what's the big plan there, Anders, kill everyone that believes in the Maker or likes the Chantry? 

That was not anders objective.

Fourth, it is just bad strategy, since it will get the people AGAINST you rather than for you.

The chantry needs mages more then the mages need them. Who is keeping the tevinters and qunari away now? I wouldnt be suprised that the Cassandra's ulterior motives for peace is that her homeland need the mages to fend of a tevinter invasion.

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
Genocide is the right thing to do? Seriously? You're arguing that the system of rape and imprisonment is wrong, but the action done for the sole sake of having the Circle die brutally, to the last child, at the hands of the templars is justified?

You know what? Yes. That's exactly what I'm arguing. I have no real sympathy for individuals that did nothing to free themselves because they felt it was "safer" or "easier" to remain slaves in gilded cages. Even if the mages ultimately lose, and status quo is restored. I will still argue that Anders was in the right and that furthermore, mages should continue to attempt revolution as many times asit takes to secure their freedom.

It does not follow, however, that sparking an Annulment is the same thing as offering the mages up for slaughter. Anders fully expects them to fight back and condemns Orsino and other senior mages for failing to stand up to the tyranny of the Chantry before now. He will leave the group to defend the mages, except under specific circumstances that currently don't exist in-game. He's forcing them to take action. Mages need to survive, if only to spread the word to other Circles. If they just bent over and took it, he'd acheive nothing.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 mai 2011 - 10:51 .

[The Earl Of Bronze]

I sided with Meredith and the Templars, Meredith only really goes crazy towards the end, she does make valid points, just look at all the Blood mages all over the place, also how can you side with Orsino who protected the murderer of your mother as well as provide books for use in that murder. Even Orsino when pushed turns to Blood magic, he seemed fairly familiar with it as well, probably studied it. Hardly innocent.

[Xilizhra]

A. We don't know that when making the choice. B. I understand his motives for doing so; he didn't want the Circle being Annulled because of some crazy apostate, something that could very well have happened. C. Meredith was crazy the whole game, she just got worse at the end. See http://social.biowar...6/index/7450448

[Rifneno]

Gah. Thread grows too quick to take a day off. =/

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think maybe you're assuming my whole definition thing is narrow and that Anders fits some extremely specific criteria or something?   Or that I'd condemn any use of terror tactics regardless of motivation?  That's not really the case.  That I don't think the details of the motivation is relevant to evaluating if something is terrorism doesn't mean that I'm not aware of it being used in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons in a variety of settings, some of which I might agree with.[/quote]

Err, yeah, I kind of assumed you meant "terrorism is inherently bad." Most people think so. But like I said, there's 100+ definitions and some of them are looser than Isabela. So if you're using one of the broader definitions that doesn't automatically mean Anders is the worst thing since the plague by slapping that label on him, no problem.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

Anders claims to feel guilty? So what? What else does Anders claim about setting his magic bomb?

"I cannot tell you how good it feels for a spirit to fulfill its function. The waiting is over. I am finally seeking justice. And he is exultant. There is no ecstasy humankind can feel to match."

Yeah. Not moved by Anders later 'guilt.'

Another thing Anders says: "I'm a liar."[/quote]

Out of context much?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What was that statue's quote? "The prison is breached"? Could that refer to the Veil separating spirits and mortals growing increasingly thinner in more places than Kirkwall?[/quote]

Possible I guess... I think it's much more likely to be refering to the Primordial Thaig though.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Which peaceful church? You're the one inventing fiction - I only refered to killing priests because, well, that's what Anders did when he blew up the Chantry. I was actually taking the most cordial interpretation - the one where the Chantry blows up and kills only the implicated, i.e. the ordained Chantry and the Grand Cleric. [/quote]

Remind me where a sister or mother of the Chantry is referred to as a nun.

[quote]What the templars did is abhorent... but you seem to focus far more on what the Chantry did to enable it. So I'm curious - just how exactly should the actual rapist get punished?[/quote]

A complex answer, unfortunately. What should be done, or what do they deserve? I'm not a fan of torture for the sake of torture. Not only does it not solve anything, in many cases it winds up turning one into the type of monster they're trying to punish. So my answer to what should be done with them is execution. What do they deserve? They deserve to feel every bit of suffering they've inflicted upon others. They should be trapped in a hell of reliving every bit of pain, terror, sorrow, and general trauma they've caused others.

[quote]ipgd wrote...

Hepler has basically confirmed his situation with Justice is supposed to be analogous to bipolar disorder so I doubt he's faking the mood swings.[/quote]

Greeeat.  Have the guy half the players view as a terrorist be openly written as a person suffering a common mental illness.  That's not completely retarded or anything.   What, they weren't content just to demonize fictional minorities?

[quote]klarabella wrote...

Yeah, Anders thought that being possessed by a spirit was a good idea. Merrill points out to him that the Dalish don't distinguish spirits and demons, trying to convince him that she's knowing exactly what she's doing ... unlike him. Must have been a major case of Fridge Horror for Anders who constantly derides/chastises mages for trusting demons.[/quote]

The things is, the Dalish are stupid if that's what they believe. Spirits and demons are not the same thing, and the situation with Anders is unprecedented by known lore. It wasn't the "lulz, you tool" situation that many players, and Merrill, make it out to be. I know it's not a perfect comparison, but it would be like chastising someone whose dog mauled them out of nowhere because "all animals are dangerous."

[quote]ipgd wrote...

Intent is a matter in acts of "evil". Greagoir was working within his legal authority with full due process as outlined by the law. Whether or not the Rite of Tranquility itself is justified matters little, given that it is a long-standing institution that  he was raised to believe is justified. Believing the Rite and the laws surrounding it are appropriate, or just not critically analysing or challenging them, may make him ignorant, but it separates him from the kind of person who recognizes it as an inhumane punishment and enacts it because of that, or the kind of person who would knowingly step outside the limits of his legal authority in order to enact it (as Meredith does).[/quote]

The same could be said in defense of Danarius and most of the scum of Tevinter. Not buying it for them, and not buying it for a templar.

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Oh, my. This won't be ending well.[/quote]

Does it ever?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
If the only way to reform the Circle is the behavior of Anders...
[/quote]

But it isn't. For one, Anders's way meant the genocide of the Kirkwall Circle (complete or otherwise).
[/quote]

Oh? And what do you think will get the Chantry to become caring mentors rather than brutal tyrants? Give me a minute to finish my coke first if you're going to say diplomacy though. Stings when you burst out laughing while drinking.

[quote]Except that the mages could speak without being silenced. In fact, mages had an entire conference on being independent that wasn't silenced.[/quote]

Which would be a valid point if Leliana didn't tell Hawke that the Chantry has only allowed such things for the purpose of keeping an eye on the troublemakers.

[quote]More generally, Anders's actions show he doesn't give a flying **** about the safety of the mages, given that he says that aware that his actions would lead to the Rite of Annulment. He wants the mages to rise up and try to kill the templars, and sees any mage dead as a result of his bombing of the Chantry as a martyr of the great cause ™.[/quote]

"Martyr of the great cause." Good God. Could you heap any more real life villain quotes into fake dialogue to demonize characters you don't like? This is like if some of us (pro-mage) started referring to Circles as "concentration camps."

Anyway, no. "You've doomed us all!" "We were already doomed." It's quite clear it's not that he doesn't care about their safety, it's that he feels the Kirkwall Circle was already going to die. And the case could certainly be made that he's right.

[quote]More generally, would you consider government buildings, staffed with civilians, military targets? That what yo're arguing.[/quote]

I would. You're naive if you think war is fought by tiptoeing around anyone not carrying AK-47s. They say "war is hell" for a reason. Because war is hell. Real war is not like an action movie where the good guys never have to get their hands bloody and it's all sunshine and rainbows at the end.

I'm not saying it's okay to bomb a government funded shelter for orphans, but if an attack on an enemy government building will reasonably help your war efforts, it's a valid target.

[quote]I don't particularly like it when anyone is used as pawns. I can relate to the situation that Irving is in - sacrifices for the greater good and so on.[/quote]

Oh wow. I so want to make a sarcastic reply about how you're okay with stealing people's souls for your "grand cause!™" but I'm sure someone wouldn't get it. So I'll just have to settle for pointing out you're advocating a small-scale version of everything you complain about Anders for.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
But I'm not, and never was, talking about just
the mage question. My original point was that while the thin veil
ensured craziness was going to happen with the mages at some point (and
annulments had already happened in Kirkwall before) everything else combined to make the situation in Kirkwall so particularly toxic.

You were replying to my post criticizing the Chantry system for its handling of mages and Templars. So I assumed that's what you were talking about.

Deztyn wrote...
If you want to say, "Meredith never should have had that influence." Sure. Fine. But she did have that influence and she had it for some ten years before the game without things reaching critical mass. That happened over the course of seven years in game, and those events lead me to believe that if you just dropped a new Knight Commander in at any point into the same situation things may have still gone to hell.

If a KC did not block the election of a new Viscount, ****** off the nobility, anger the guards, and not so subtly expose the intention of annnuling the Circle, I think the situation would not have been as bad as it was.
Or if a KC was not so stupid as to forge a sword from an unknown form of lyrium that might be even more fatal than normal lyrium, then a lot of things could have been avoided. But like an idiot, Meredith thinks that a sword made of pure concentrated lyrium is a good idea. 

Yes, an annulment happened before. It did not have the same consequences. The context was different and required a KC capable of handling the delicate situation and the Chantry quite foolishily thought that Elthina and Meredith can handle it. And when one hears what the Divine is thinking, which makes Meredith sound like a moderate, then it comes off as no surprise.

Moving the mages of one Circle under her jurisdiction into the other
Circle under her jurisdiction does not change the burden placed on her.

It changes the burden placed on Meredith however, who got herself involved in a very fragile and sensitive political context.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Genocide is the right thing to do? Seriously? You're arguing that the system of rape and imprisonment is wrong, but the action done for the sole sake of having the Circle die brutally, to the last child, at the hands of the templars is justified?

You know what? Yes. That's exactly what I'm arguing. I have no real sympathy for individuals that did nothing to free themselves because they felt it was "safer" or "easier" to remain slaves in gilded cages.

I'd be careful with this line of thinking.

But of course you just demonstrated the irony of Revolution and why it ends up turning against its own people. To get rid of the "scum within" that are not fighting hard enough. 

[TEWR]

The things is, the Dalish are stupid if that's what they believe. Spirits and demons are not the same thing, and the situation with Anders is unprecedented by known lore. It wasn't the "lulz, you tool" situation that many players, and Merrill, make it out to be. I know it's not a perfect comparison, but it would be like chastising someone whose dog mauled them out of nowhere because "all animals are dangerous."

Demons are spirits though. They just operate differently than spirits like Justice or Faith. We've seen firsthand how dangerous spirits can be. Wynne almost kills herself (again. Does she like dying?) trying to use Faith's power and Justice was able to be, as far as we know, warped into a complete demon (I'm of the opinion that he's spirit and demon intertwined as one).

So I believe the Dalish way.


Also, I think the Primeval Thaig is just as likely a candidate for the quote about the prison being breached too, but considering the Veil was torn in the Circle's basement and in Kirkwall, it could also be about the Veil growing weaker.

[RangerSG]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I do hope that Thrask and Keran wouldn't maintain the suicide rate.

It's very likely there's not much they can do about that. The lot of a mage is not great; being essentially under house arrest your whole life leads to mental breakdowns.

That's why the Circle desperately needs reform. But reform =! justifying the whackjob behaviour of Anders.

If the only way to reform the Circle is the behavior of Anders...

Given the Ferelden Circle is reformed with a mage PC in Origins, I don't think the *only* way was Anders. He was as whacked as Meredith by then.

[RangerSG]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The things is, the Dalish are stupid if that's what they believe. Spirits and demons are not the same thing, and the situation with Anders is unprecedented by known lore. It wasn't the "lulz, you tool" situation that many players, and Merrill, make it out to be. I know it's not a perfect comparison, but it would be like chastising someone whose dog mauled them out of nowhere because "all animals are dangerous."

Demons are spirits though. They just operate differently than spirits like Justice or Faith. We've seen firsthand how dangerous spirits can be. Wynne almost kills herself (again. Does she like dying?) trying to use Faith's power and Justice was able to be, as far as we know, warped into a complete demon (I'm of the opinion that he's spirit and demon intertwined as one).

So I believe the Dalish way.


Also, I think the Primeval Thaig is just as likely a candidate for the quote about the prison being breached too, but considering the Veil was torn in the Circle's basement and in Kirkwall, it could also be about the Veil growing weaker.

I pretty much agree with the Dalish on this too. Or more accurately, yes, the demons/spirits embody specific virtues and vices. But ANY spirit released in an absolute sense into the world is going to be dangerous to everyone around them because spirits are UNMITIGATED embodiments of the virtue/vice in question. They do not understand negotiation of what they are, half-measures, or the nature of life in the Real World as opposed to the Fade. So as a result, at best you have a martyr-wanna be like Wynne, at worst you have a well-intentioned Abomination like Anders.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think spirits and demons are better served as tools, for instance in war. Apparently the Tevinter Imperium used them and still maintained control.

The Ancient Tevinter Imperium is very fascinating, I wish we could have a Dragon Age spin-off based around that time.

[The Earl Of Bronze]

Xilizhra wrote...

A. We don't know that when making the choice. B. I understand his motives for doing so; he didn't want the Circle being Annulled because of some crazy apostate, something that could very well have happened. C. Meredith was crazy the whole game, she just got worse at the end. See http://social.biowar...6/index/7450448

Orsino aided the blood mage who harvested the body parts, including your mothers head, he gave him texts to help him, didn't stop his experiments even though he knew all about them. You find out early on that Orsino was involved when you find that letter signed with an "O". I would have liked to confront Orsino earlier but you can't. He did nothing when he should have done something. 

[TEWR]

That's not to say though that beneficial spirits can't be helpful in the mortal world. They just have to realize that nothing is absolute in the mortal world in regards to vices and virtues and they have to be controlled safely. As for demons, I'm gonna repeat what I said many pages ago: travel into the Fade and slaughter them all!

I would assume that the Rivaini seers know exactly how to control spirits safely.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think spirits and demons are better served as tools, for instance in war. Apparently the Tevinter Imperium used them and still maintained control.

The Ancient Tevinter Imperium is very fascinating, I wish we could have a Dragon Age spin-off based around that time.

Agreed. The fact that Gascard and Danarius were able to control shades and Rage Demons is amazing, though I imagine it's incredibly difficult to control the demons higher up on the food chain. You know, Pride and Desire. Maybe the lesser ones are able to be tamed like animals.


Out of curiosity, what is a shade? What do they embody? Are they just hunger and sloth demons?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Agreed. The fact that Gascard and Danarius were able to control shades and Rage Demons is amazing, though I imagine it's incredibly difficult to control the demons higher up on the food chain. You know, Pride and Desire. Maybe the lesser ones are able to be tamed like animals.

If those small potatoes could pull this off, imagine what a Magister Lord of the old days could do.

Out of curiosity, what is a shade? What do they embody? Are they just hunger and sloth demons?

http://dragonage.wik...ex_entry:_Shade

[TEWR]

It's no wonder the Tevinter Imperium of old were a force to be reckoned with. Magic, dragons, armies, and maybe even demons of that magnitude.

Wait, was the blood mage on the Docks in DA2 able to control that Pride Demon or was he just there admiring the sea?

Also, thanks for the link. So shades are just demons in a more powerful and dangerous physical form.... huh....

[TEWR]

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

A. We don't know that when making the choice. B. I understand his motives for doing so; he didn't want the Circle being Annulled because of some crazy apostate, something that could very well have happened. C. Meredith was crazy the whole game, she just got worse at the end. See http://social.biowar...6/index/7450448

Orsino aided the blood mage who harvested the body parts, including your mothers head, he gave him texts to help him, didn't stop his experiments even though he knew all about them. You find out early on that Orsino was involved when you find that letter signed with an "O". I would have liked to confront Orsino earlier but you can't. He did nothing when he should have done something. 

While it's painfully obvious to us that "O" was Orsino, it isn't to Hawke because for all he knows there are many people in Kirkwall who have a first name that begins with "O". The only reason it's obvious to us is because we only know of one person whose name begins with "O".

You need to distinguish between you as the player and you as Hawke.

That's not to say he shouldn't have investigated the damn thing though, both before All That Remains and after.

[HSHAW]

RangerSG wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I do hope that Thrask and Keran wouldn't maintain the suicide rate.

It's very likely there's not much they can do about that. The lot of a mage is not great; being essentially under house arrest your whole life leads to mental breakdowns.

That's why the Circle desperately needs reform. But reform =! justifying the whackjob behaviour of Anders.

If the only way to reform the Circle is the behavior of Anders...

Given the Ferelden Circle is reformed with a mage PC in Origins, I don't think the *only* way was Anders. He was as whacked as Meredith by then.

What reform? Do you mean the Magi boon that was turned down by the Chantry?

[The Earl Of Bronze]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

A. We don't know that when making the choice. B. I understand his motives for doing so; he didn't want the Circle being Annulled because of some crazy apostate, something that could very well have happened. C. Meredith was crazy the whole game, she just got worse at the end. See http://social.biowar...6/index/7450448

Orsino aided the blood mage who harvested the body parts, including your mothers head, he gave him texts to help him, didn't stop his experiments even though he knew all about them. You find out early on that Orsino was involved when you find that letter signed with an "O". I would have liked to confront Orsino earlier but you can't. He did nothing when he should have done something. 

While it's painfully obvious to us that "O" was Orsino, it isn't to Hawke because for all he knows there are many people in Kirkwall who have a first name that begins with "O". The only reason it's obvious to us is because we only know of one person whose name begins with "O".

You need to distinguish between you as the player and you as Hawke.

That's not to say he shouldn't have investigated the damn thing though, both before All That Remains and after.

Hawke will have had an idea at least who was helping him, expecially considering that Orsino was one of the few people with access to such texts that the blood mage needed.

[TEWR]

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

[nos_astra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hey. they made it seven years without Stalindith killing them all. If Irving was First Enchanter, the Gallows would be empty in a week.

Because he'd let blood mages be punished?

I see what you did there.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

 

Really? Don't people talk about Meredith *and* Orsino arguing? And by the end of act 2 (right after his mom kicks the bucket) he should learn Orsino's name*and* that Orsino is the first enchanter. 

And of course it begs the question why he didn't go to Meredith with the letter in the first place for proof (actual PROOF) that bloodmages were in her circle. 

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

 

Really? Don't people talk about Meredith *and* Orsino arguing? And by the end of act 2 (right after his mom kicks the bucket) he should learn Orsino's name*and* that Orsino is the first enchanter. 

And of course it begs the question why he didn't go to Meredith with the letter in the first place for proof (actual PROOF) that bloodmages were in her circle. 

I think every time Orsino was mentioned, it was as "First Enchanter". I don't think they ever used his name.

[dragonflight288]

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

It is entirely possible that at the end of Act 2, he would have something to go off of when Meredith says "First Enchanter Orsino" during the qunari attack.

[The Earl Of Bronze]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

Books of such power, value and rarity would be under the supervision of the first enchanter himself, and that was Orsino, you hear "first enchanter Orsino" at some point before your mother dies. I rekon Orsino was involved a lot more than you find out in the blood magic going on. 

My Hawke has Columbo level investigative skills.