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[nos_astra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

And for some people Hawke's sister ends up in the Circle.

[TEWR]

not necessarily. We don't know that these books would only be viewable to the First Enchanter. Especially since Animate Dead, a necromancy like spell, is in the Spirit school of magic.

We also know that Quentin was doing research into the Harvester, a "super-abomination" as per a David Gaider post. I think Quentin may have been doing research into various fields of abomination lore and knowledge when he was sane, and that's what Orsino found so interesting (we have no idea how old that letter we found is. Orsino could've ceased contact with Quentin the moment he found out he was murdering, but still was afraid to report him to Meredith).

I won't deny that Orsino had been practicing blood magic for who knows how long, but I got the impression he never used it once before outside of using his own blood in secret just to have a better knowledge of it.

[TEWR]

klarabella wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

And for some people Hawke's sister ends up in the Circle.

Does Bethany mention Orsino in her letter? I've only done one Bethany-in-Circle playthrough so I don't remember.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

 

Really? Don't people talk about Meredith *and* Orsino arguing? And by the end of act 2 (right after his mom kicks the bucket) he should learn Orsino's name*and* that Orsino is the first enchanter. 

And of course it begs the question why he didn't go to Meredith with the letter in the first place for proof (actual PROOF) that bloodmages were in her circle. 

I think every time Orsino was mentioned, it was as "First Enchanter". I don't think they ever used his name.

 

As someone else said I believe Meredith calls him by name. And I believe you get a codex on him right after you meet him. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mai 2011 - 03:20 .

[The Earl Of Bronze]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not necessarily. We don't know that these books would only be viewable to the First Enchanter. Especially since Animate Dead, a necromancy like spell, is in the Spirit school of magic.

We also know that Quentin was doing research into the Harvester, a "super-abomination" as per a David Gaider post. I think Quentin may have been doing research into various fields of abomination lore and knowledge when he was sane, and that's what Orsino found so interesting (we have no idea how old that letter we found is. Orsino could've ceased contact with Quentin the moment he found out he was murdering, but still was afraid to report him to Meredith).

I won't deny that Orsino had been practicing blood magic for who knows how long, but I got the impression he never used it once before outside of using his own blood in secret just to have a better knowledge of it.

Quentin was researching into the harvester, and Orsino uses that magic when you kill him, which could suggest Orsino and Quentin being big players and working together in the blood magic in kirkwall. Maybe using the weaker veil to aid their influence over the other mages, to turn them to blood magic, possibly to try and overthrow the Templars and take the city, but Hawke gets in the way and kills Quentin and sides with the Templars and forces Orsinos hand when his wasn't fully ready.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

 

Really? Don't people talk about Meredith *and* Orsino arguing? And by the end of act 2 (right after his mom kicks the bucket) he should learn Orsino's name*and* that Orsino is the first enchanter. 

And of course it begs the question why he didn't go to Meredith with the letter in the first place for proof (actual PROOF) that bloodmages were in her circle. 

I think every time Orsino was mentioned, it was as "First Enchanter". I don't think they ever used his name.

 

As someone else said I believe Meredith calls him by name. And I believe you get a codex on him right after you meet him. 

I'm talking about before though. I'm saying that prior to All That Remains, Hawke had never heard Orsino's name so he had no reason to suspect Orsino. After he meets him it stands to reason he'd be somewhat suspicious that the First Enchanter, the highest mage there is in Chantry controlled Circles, would have a name that begins with "O" after he found the note.

[TEWR]

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not necessarily. We don't know that these books would only be viewable to the First Enchanter. Especially since Animate Dead, a necromancy like spell, is in the Spirit school of magic.

We also know that Quentin was doing research into the Harvester, a "super-abomination" as per a David Gaider post. I think Quentin may have been doing research into various fields of abomination lore and knowledge when he was sane, and that's what Orsino found so interesting (we have no idea how old that letter we found is. Orsino could've ceased contact with Quentin the moment he found out he was murdering, but still was afraid to report him to Meredith).

I won't deny that Orsino had been practicing blood magic for who knows how long, but I got the impression he never used it once before outside of using his own blood in secret just to have a better knowledge of it.

Quentin was researching into the harvester, and Orsino uses that magic when you kill him, which could suggest Orsino and Quentin being big players and working together in the blood magic in kirkwall. Maybe using the weaker veil to aid their influence over the other mages, to turn them to blood magic, possibly to try and overthrow the Templars and take the city, but Hawke gets in the way and kills Quentin and sides with the Templars and forces Orsinos hand when his wasn't fully ready.

That's one hell of a conspiracy theory that has very little to back it up, if anything at all. Orsino wanted to defend the mages, which is hard to do if the Templars find out they've been practicing blood magic. Plus, have we ever even heard of someone using blood magic to make someone else use... blood magic? That's a domino effect waiting to happen.

Orsino could care less about ruling the city. He wants Meredith to let the nobility decide who should rule.

[The Earl Of Bronze]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not necessarily. We don't know that these books would only be viewable to the First Enchanter. Especially since Animate Dead, a necromancy like spell, is in the Spirit school of magic.

We also know that Quentin was doing research into the Harvester, a "super-abomination" as per a David Gaider post. I think Quentin may have been doing research into various fields of abomination lore and knowledge when he was sane, and that's what Orsino found so interesting (we have no idea how old that letter we found is. Orsino could've ceased contact with Quentin the moment he found out he was murdering, but still was afraid to report him to Meredith).

I won't deny that Orsino had been practicing blood magic for who knows how long, but I got the impression he never used it once before outside of using his own blood in secret just to have a better knowledge of it.

Quentin was researching into the harvester, and Orsino uses that magic when you kill him, which could suggest Orsino and Quentin being big players and working together in the blood magic in kirkwall. Maybe using the weaker veil to aid their influence over the other mages, to turn them to blood magic, possibly to try and overthrow the Templars and take the city, but Hawke gets in the way and kills Quentin and sides with the Templars and forces Orsinos hand when his wasn't fully ready.

That's one hell of a conspiracy theory that has very little to back it up, if anything at all. Orsino wanted to defend the mages, which is hard to do if the Templars find out they've been practicing blood magic. Plus, have we ever even heard of someone using blood magic to make someone else use... blood magic? That's a domino effect waiting to happen.

Orsino could care less about ruling the city. He wants Meredith to let the nobility decide who should rule.

Look at the result, all the circles in revolt, did Orsino want just to protect the mages or free them? Blood magic spells control others, doesn't seem that far out that he could influence other mages? I think we only see the true Orsino when his back is against the wall at the end of the game. And the other mages seemed way too eager to be part of his harvester ritual, unless they had prior knowledge of such.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The spell "Animate Dead" isn't necromancy.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'm talking about before though. I'm saying that prior to All That Remains, Hawke had never heard Orsino's name so he had no reason to suspect Orsino. After he meets him it stands to reason he'd be somewhat suspicious that the First Enchanter, the highest mage there is in Chantry controlled Circles, would have a name that begins with "O" after he found the note.

 

The fact that you can't hand that note over to Meredith/Cullen makes no sense to me. 

Bah. 

Stupid plot railroading. 

[dragonflight288]

Look at the result, all the circles in revolt, did Orsino want just to protect the mages or free them? Blood magic spells control others, doesn't seem that far out that he could influence other mages? I think we only see the true Orsino when his back is against the wall at the end of the game. And the other mages seemed way too eager to be part of his harvester ritual, unless they had prior knowledge of such.

The result comes out of Meredith trying to annul the circle without reason, Anders blowing up the chantry, the templars maybe going rogue, whatever the reason, the revolt comes out AFTER Kirkwall essentially falls apart.

Before the huge explosion, Orsino was trying to see the Grand Cleric because Meredith was abusing her power with unsanctioned search and seizures. He was preaching that Meredith should let the city's nobles elect a new viscount and for her to step out of the way of city politics.

If you're arguing that he wants to revolt, the in-evidence suggests otherwise. Granted, there's enough to show he isn't a paragon of moral behavior and people can like him or not like him as they see fit. But there isn't enough evidence to even suggest he wanted what happened to the chantry to happen.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Demons are spirits though. They just operate differently than spirits like Justice or Faith. We've seen firsthand how dangerous spirits can be. Wynne almost kills herself (again. Does she like dying?) trying to use Faith's power and Justice was able to be, as far as we know, warped into a complete demon (I'm of the opinion that he's spirit and demon intertwined as one).

She tried to use Faith's power out of desperation, and she didn't know it would almost kill her.  Neither did Faith, from the impression I got.  The spirit healer specialization even says templars watch closely over spirit healers because these are mages that have shown they'll deal with Fade creatures.  Meaning even the templars aren't worried a good spirit will turn bad, and that it's common enough practice for them to have guidelines on it.  Lastly, I don't have a link to it, but I recall DG saying a spirit possessing someone is different than a demon possessing someone.  Which indicates that there is indeed a fundamental difference.

Also, I think the Primeval Thaig is just as likely a candidate for the quote about the prison being breached too, but considering the Veil was torn in the Circle's basement and in Kirkwall, it could also be about the Veil growing weaker.

Wouldn't that be more "the prison's bars grow softer" or something though?  Breached more indicates a sudden, definite change rather than a slow shift over long periods of time.  Besides, there's nothing to indicate the veil is any different than it's always been outside of Kirkwall.

RangerSG wrote...

Given the Ferelden Circle is reformed with a mage PC in Origins, I don't think the *only* way was Anders. He was as whacked as Meredith by then.

Except, of course, that it doesn't get reformed.  You can ask for the boon as a mage, but the Chantry says no.  But don't take my word for it, take a dev almost outright mocking the idea that the Chantry would peacefully reform: here

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think spirits and demons are better served as tools, for instance in war. Apparently the Tevinter Imperium used them and still maintained control.

Do we have any indication of that beyond Tarohne's mad ravings though?  It could easily be the demon just convinced her of that so she'd help it into the real world.

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

Orsino aided the blood mage who harvested the body parts, including your mothers head, he gave him texts to help him, didn't stop his experiments even though he knew all about them. You find out early on that Orsino was involved when you find that letter signed with an "O". I would have liked to confront Orsino earlier but you can't. He did nothing when he should have done something.

1. We all know he helped Orsino. Some of us, however, are unconvinced he was doing so with knowledge of Quentin's real crimes. The letter is unspecific in many details, including date and anything except research of necromancy. We also found a note that indicated Quentin was experimenting on ways to preserve tissue; it's not out of the realm of possibility that Orsino only meant something that simple and was told that he was using corpses already dead rather than killing people to make a zombie wife.
2. He should have done something? Okay, let's say he rats on Quentin. Meredith uses it as ammunition against the Circle, as he says she would've and common sense indicates. Now Leandra is saved! Yay! Whoops, now Bethany's dead. And Leandra wishes it was her instead. ... I guess it's not as black and white as "he should've done something."
3. Saying you should've been able to confront him on the O letter is ridiculous. Yes, we as players of a video game know it's likely to be the First Enchanter because that's just how video games go. Hawke, however, lives is a large city with thousands of people whose name begins with the letter O. This is like finding a man shot in Las Vegas who tells you "It was T--*dies*" and immediately thinking "Oh my God! Donald Trump killed this man!"

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

Hawke will have had an idea at least who was helping him, expecially considering that Orsino was one of the few people with access to such texts that the blood mage needed.

Riiight. Nobody has free access to books teaching forbidden arts like the guy living right next to Knight Commander McCarthy.

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

Look at the result, all the circles in revolt, did Orsino want just to protect the mages or free them? Blood magic spells control others, doesn't seem that far out that he could influence other mages? I think we only see the true Orsino when his back is against the wall at the end of the game. And the other mages seemed way too eager to be part of his harvester ritual, unless they had prior knowledge of such.

Yes indeed, look at the result! All the Circles revolted after Orsino died, clearly he was using blood magic to control thousands of mages across thousands of miles all while dead! My God, it's all so clear now!

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

The Blight and the inlux of Fereldan refugees was a problem the city guard, and weak Viscount were unable to handle.The Qunari attack and the death of the Viscount is what allowed her to take almost complete
control of Kirkwall. The Starkhaven fire introduced a group of subversive blood mages into the Circle. All of these things contributed to the situation. And yes, the crazy idol too, which I mentioned in my previous post.

The two Starkhaven mages we see who use blood magic are Grace and Alain (who become members of the Circle of Kirkwall), but do we know when Grace became a blood mage? Because when we encounter her, she's an abomination. And Alain seems to have become a blood mage because of the "nightly visits" the templars give him, which is why he joined Ser Thrask and his renegade movement to remove Meredith from power.

Deztyn wrote...

But the Resolutionists don't make an appearance until Act III, possibly Act II, with the Mage Underground. (Or possibly with the Starkhaven mages) In Act I, the government was still stable. The Templar's carried more authority than they should have, the common man wasn't overly fond of them, but the system wasn't broken. Not yet.

There's no evidence the mage underground had any ties to the Resolutionists. Anders was helping mages escape from Meredith's rule with the mage underground while we encounter and hear about the Resolutions (from Faith) only once in Act III trying to assassinate Leliana.

[DKJaigen]

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You're assuming that Hawke knew the First Enchanter's name. The only reason Hawke even knew of Meredith was because she was constantly being talked about.

Now, he could've had suspicions that someone from the Circle was involved, but he couldn't have known that it was the First Enchanter who was involved.

Books of such power, value and rarity would be under the supervision of the first enchanter himself, and that was Orsino, you hear "first enchanter Orsino" at some point before your mother dies. I rekon Orsino was involved a lot more than you find out in the blood magic going on. 

My Hawke has Columbo level investigative skills. 

Good for yyou. now do you have proof?

[Beerfish]

LobselVith8 wrote...


The two Starkhaven mages we see who use blood magic are Grace and Alain (who become members of the Circle of Kirkwall), but do we know when Grace became a blood mage? Because when we encounter her, she's an abomination. And Alain seems to have become a blood mage because of the "nightly visits" the templars give him, which is why he joined Ser Thrask and his renegade movement to remove Meredith from power.

You forgot the ringleader Decimus and Graces declararion that he (Decimus) was right all along, etc.  Grace and Alain didn't just become blood mages all of a sudden because they were upset with the Kirkall circle.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


The two Starkhaven mages we see who use blood magic are Grace and Alain (who become members of the Circle of Kirkwall), but do we know when Grace became a blood mage? Because when we encounter her, she's an abomination. And Alain seems to have become a blood mage because of the "nightly visits" the templars give him, which is why he joined Ser Thrask and his renegade movement to remove Meredith from power.

You forgot the ringleader Decimus and Graces declararion that he (Decimus) was right all along, etc.  Grace and Alain didn't just become blood mages all of a sudden because they were upset with the Kirkall circle.

I didn't forget Decimus, but he didn't become a member of the Kirkwall Circle, so I didn't reference him. Grace is an abomination when we encounter her. And we know Alain sided with Ser Thrask because of what the templars were doing to him - he initially regards blood magic as evil, but Ser Thrask apparently doesn't since that's how they render the hostage unconscious.

[GavrielKay]

Beerfish wrote...

You forgot the ringleader Decimus and Graces declararion that he (Decimus) was right all along, etc.  Grace and Alain didn't just become blood mages all of a sudden because they were upset with the Kirkall circle.

Maybe, maybe not.  In any case, aren't they in the Kirkwall circle for at least 3 years?  That's not necessarily "all of a sudden."

Given there are hundreds of mages in the Kirkwall circle, how much does it really matter that we are shown a smattering of blood mages anyway?  Taking the dozen or two that we see as representative of the whole circle is not a good bet.  It's the bad ones that will escape and attack us.  The hundreds that we don't see are likely innocent.

I don't think anything they do once the RoA is actually underway counts against them.  Once they are condemned to death regardless of guilt or innocence, it is ridiculous to judge them for actions taken in self defense.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Maybe, maybe not.  In any case, aren't they in the Kirkwall circle for at least 3 years?  That's not necessarily "all of a sudden."

Given there are hundreds of mages in the Kirkwall circle, how much does it really matter that we are shown a smattering of blood mages anyway?  Taking the dozen or two that we see as representative of the whole circle is not a good bet.  It's the bad ones that will escape and attack us.  The hundreds that we don't see are likely innocent.

I don't think anything they do once the RoA is actually underway counts against them.  Once they are condemned to death regardless of guilt or innocence, it is ridiculous to judge them for actions taken in self defense.

6 years. They were taken the Circle in Act I and rebelled in Act III. Agreed on the last 2 paragraphs definitely. I wish more people thought it through that well. *sigh*

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

You forgot the ringleader Decimus and Graces declararion that he (Decimus) was right all along, etc.  Grace and Alain didn't just become blood mages all of a sudden because they were upset with the Kirkall circle.

Maybe, maybe not.  In any case, aren't they in the Kirkwall circle for at least 3 years?  That's not necessarily "all of a sudden."

Given there are hundreds of mages in the Kirkwall circle, how much does it really matter that we are shown a smattering of blood mages anyway?  Taking the dozen or two that we see as representative of the whole circle is not a good bet.  It's the bad ones that will escape and attack us.  The hundreds that we don't see are likely innocent.

I don't think anything they do once the RoA is actually underway counts against them.  Once they are condemned to death regardless of guilt or innocence, it is ridiculous to judge them for actions taken in self defense.

I doubt you learn blood magic instantanously the moment you make your deal with a demon. So the mages we fight during the RoA were blood mages even before the Right was called.

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

6 years. They were taken the Circle in Act I and rebelled in Act III. Agreed on the last 2 paragraphs definitely. I wish more people thought it through that well. *sigh*

6 years, that wouldn't be "all of a sudden" even if they started only once they got to the circle.  I'm not saying there weren't blood mages already, certainly keeping company with Decimus casts some suspiciouns on them, but we don't know for sure.

Obviously it's debatable given there's about 150 pages of debate...  but I still don't get how people can say "all the mages we see are evil, therefore the circle has got to be annulled."  I mean, we see a small percentage of mages relative to the total population of the circle.  Plus, it's hardly a random sample, it's the ones desperate or guilty enough to go through the effort to escape. 

Remember Hawke's father was an apostate mage who apparently raised 3 children that were basically good strong people.  Carver was a bit of a **** but he wasn't evil.  Hawke knows that mages can be free and good people.  MageHawke knows this even better.  I just have a really hard time playing a Hawke that thinks it's an almost certainty that hundreds of mages that we never meet are irredeemable and must be killed. 

I really can't play a Hawke who thinks going along with Meredith on her personal war path is a good idea.  I mean seriously - her excuse is that the mob will demand it?  So what?  She didn't give in the any popular demand for a proper  Viscount, why cave to the will of the people now?

[Ryzaki]

You don't have to think the whole circle is irredeemable to annull it.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt you learn blood magic instantanously the moment you make your deal with a demon. So the mages we fight during the RoA were blood mages even before the Right was called.

I have no idea how quick learning blood magic is.  I also can't recall just how many blood mages we see in the end game.  I know we don't see hundreds of mages (including child apprentices and the elderly) so even if I see 10, 20 or 50 blood mages, that still doesn't mean the circle is irredeemable.  Even Cullen doesn't tihnk so, or he wouldn't bring you a few to judge.  Also, blood magic is illegal, but not necessarily evil as far as I'm concerned.  The various methods to learn blood magic have been debated already, and I think it is possible to learn it from other mages or books.  I don't believe that dealing with a demon is necessary.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt you learn blood magic instantanously the moment you make your deal with a demon.

That's how it works in Origins. Perhaps the knowledge is transmitted directly in the brain.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If there were as many as 50 blood mages in the Circle, which most likely numbers a couple of hundred mages, I would say that the blood magic infestation was substantial enough to warrant a purge. We can't say for sure though how big the problem was, but judging from the amount of blood mages we face, I'd say it was substantial, maybe not for a RoA, but at least for an investigation, which Orsino brilliantly prevents, which leaves only one option.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt you learn blood magic instantanously the moment you make your deal with a demon.

That's how it works in Origins. Perhaps the knowledge is transmitted directly in the brain.

Does it? I don't recall that. You learn the basic specialization, but still have to "practice" the art.