4350 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

RangerSG wrote...

No, you can't play a PC that 'encourages' Anders to blow up te Chantry, because Anders specifically states he gave the Champion plausible deniability to avoid guilt blowing back. You can play a PC that agrees with what Anders did, but honestly my inclination has always been if he wanted to be a "freedom fighter," he should've went after the REAL problem, of course then we wouldn't have a plot.

Just because Anders wants to protect Hawke doesn't mean that Hawke wanted that protection.  You can imagine encouraging Anders all the way through and he still doesn't want to tarnish your reputation with something as dramatic as the Chantry explosion.  Anyway, we know he lies about that, because we're given the option to call him on it. But Hawke could still have been sitting up nights coming up with schemes to take down the Chantry without Anders wanting the blame for this particular act to fall on you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
But Hawke could still have been sitting up nights coming up with schemes to take down the Chantry.

That made me chuckle.

[Deztyn]

GavrielKay wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

No, you can't play a PC that 'encourages' Anders to blow up te Chantry, because Anders specifically states he gave the Champion plausible deniability to avoid guilt blowing back. You can play a PC that agrees with what Anders did, but honestly my inclination has always been if he wanted to be a "freedom fighter," he should've went after the REAL problem, of course then we wouldn't have a plot.

Just because Anders wants to protect Hawke doesn't mean that Hawke wanted that protection.  You can imagine encouraging Anders all the way through and he still doesn't want to tarnish your reputation with something as dramatic as the Chantry explosion.  Anyway, we know he lies about that, because we're given the option to call him on it. But Hawke could still have been sitting up nights coming up with schemes to take down the Chantry without Anders wanting the blame for this particular act to fall on you.

... but he has no problem making you an unwitting accomplice even if you're a true Andrastian who would be horrified by his methods and your role in his actions and he does it despite his ability to accomplish his mission on his own. I don't think 'You could roleplay approving it.' makes his actions any better.

Have I mentioned lately that I hate Anders?

No?

Well, I hate Anders.

Modifié par Deztyn, 24 mai 2011 - 01:23 .

[The Baconer]

In Exile wrote...
So you come and ask nicely - and the parents tell you to go **** yourself.

What do you do then?

More generally, do you start funding trips for the parents to visit their children? What do you do if the children don't want to run off to school? What if you take the children home, and then they refuse to leave again?

You have to repeat yourself because you haven't at all taken the time to consider whether the system would even work. Like I have said repeatedly: the Circle exists because non-mages fear mages. Co-existence is going to require some counter-balance of mages for the sake of equality; otherwise mages will, in virtue of their natural superiority, run everything.

Let's say, now, our 18 year old mage goes back to his village. Alone, and unwatched. Not that talented of a mage or charismatic of a person - pretty mediocre, and after a pretty girl (or boy). And he (or she) starts having dreams at night. Dreaming that the person likes them, wants them...

... and it turns out that's the work of a desire demon. Every night. Non-stop.

That's what mages have to live with. How do you keep the mage safe, in that circumstance? How do you keep the village safe? Even if you have templar equivalents stationed there, that's just a worse case scenario to fight an abomination if it happens.

Easy fix, switch to Tevinter style governance. Stop forcing mages to find workarounds that are convenient to the mundanes.

It doesn't seem like even Tevinter had (or has) the kinds of freedoms you're thinking of.

The capable do as they please.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
... but he has no problem making you an unwitting accomplice even if you're a true Andrastian who would be horrified by his methods and your role in his actions and he does it despite his ability to accomplish his mission on his own. I don't think 'You could roleplay approving it.' makes his actions any better.

Again something that does not make any sense.
Why would Anders possibly think that telling something like this to a devout Hawke or a pro-Templar Hawke is a good idea?

In fact, out of respect (if he apparently trusts him enough for this), he should keep that kind of Hawke out of it completely.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
... but he has no problem making you an unwitting accomplice even if you're a true Andrastian who would be horrified by his methods and your role in his actions and he does it despite his ability to accomplish his mission on his own. I don't think 'You could roleplay approving it.' makes his actions any better.

Again something that does not make any sense.
Why would Anders possibly think that telling something like this to a devout Hawke or a pro-Templar Hawke is a good idea?

In fact, out of respect (if he apparently trusts him enough for this), he should keep that kind of Hawke out of it completely.

Aside from "Anders is a mad abomination who doesn't fully comprehend reality anymore"-- I've got nothing.

It makes no sense, and it's not just because of the broken rivalry. It's entirely possible to play a devout Hawke who is still pro-mage or a Hawke who skews pro-templar but has max friendship with Anders.

Modifié par Deztyn, 24 mai 2011 - 01:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Anders himself is quite devout, so that's easy, but I'm not sure how you can skew pro-templar unless you side with Meredith throughout Act 3.

[KnightofPhoenix]

By devout, I meant Sebastian like. Devoted to the Chantry.
But it doesn't make sense to rp Hawke that way.

Like it doesn't make that much sense to rp Hawke as too pro-Templar, and yet still have him welcome an abomination in his home and being all "oh Anders you" as he is invading his property and shoving his manifesto everywhere.

[Rifneno]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

You don't have to think the whole circle is irredeemable to annull it. [/quote]

Cullen disagrees.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

 

Plot railroading isn't Hawke's fault.[/quote]

I agree with you for once.

...

Feels kind of creepy, doesn't it?  

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You'd be surprised. Other than modern examples, a medieval example is Almanzor in Muslim Spain. That guy was a political mastermind, and he started off as a peasant in Algeciras (though since they were educated and literate then, maybe it's a bit different).
[/quote]

Hell, Loghain is a great example and he's a DA character himself. But I guess one could argue his political ability is tied to something Hawke won't always have going for him: being a massive, massive douchebag.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

That was my bad - I haven't played the game long enough to remember the terminology. The point still stands, though. Your busy in justifying the holy war against the Chantry - but how does this actually serve the cause of freedom for the mages?[/quote]

Oh joy of joys, I get the demonizing brush now? I'm honored. So tell me, what deity am I waging this "holy war" for?

[quote]How does destroying the Chantry and forcing a war with the organized and now dedicated and fanatic templars achieve this? How does Kerras suffer if the mages start the war he was (likely) wanking himself off to every night?[/quote]

He abused a position of power, and now that position no longer exists. How exactly do you think he wanted that?

[quote]Are you familiar with the UN definition of genocide? What Meredith does in Kirkwall, very likely since Act II (and depending on how you push the definition, the Circles themselves from the start) is genocide. Calling Circles concetration camps is idiotic because that's not what they are. But (for example) refering to what the Chantry is doing (at least in Kirkwall) as a slow and protracted genocide is not. And there shouldn't be any reason to shy away from that.[/quote]

Of course it's idiotic, that was the point. It wasn't an actual suggestion, it was hyperbole to point out your own ridiculous "martyr to the great cause" crap being exactly that.

[quote]You're so focused on defending Anders that you can't actually see the insane commitment he has to his cause. But at this point, I'm starting to wonder if you're not equally commitment to '' all mages should either die or be free, irrespective of what they want'' camp.[/quote]

And I'm starting to wonder if there's a creepy lyrium idol on your desk telling you how these nutjobs on the internet want "holy war!"

[quote]It was so not actually helping the war effort that's it's nonsensical to even advocate it as such.[/quote]

And yet, the game ends with mages closer to freedom than they've been since the Chantry's founding because of it.

[quote]No, I'm not. I said that I can relate to why Irving would want to do it - not that I think it's moral or justified. But you're too busy thinking of me as an antagonist to see what I believe.[/quote]

Says the guy who's been telling me I want "holy war."

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Never mind that when Hawke comes across that letter, she has "O" to go by, not "Orsino" and not only is there no reason to assume those books came from the Kirkwall Circle, you have the fact that Hawke at the time is a little preoccupied with more urgent matters than taking the time to ponder who "O" is.[/quote]

The whole "O" thing is dumber than a Pauly Shore movie too if you ask me. Who the **** signs their name with one letter? He just got done writing words like "fascinating" and "colleague" but suddenly he's too lazy to write his own name? What, did carpal tunnel just set in? Oh, I know, people are going to say it's so it couldn't be traced back to him if found. If that's the case why use part of his real name at all? Why wouldn't they use code of some kind? I recommend his alias be "Count Chocula." I just don't remember the James Bond movie where he signs his name "-B" to avoid detection. Because I mean... Ooo, there we go, medication just kicked in. Sorry, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Eh, I don't think you've got the right of this one.   I think it indicates that the templars are equally suspicious of mages working with spirits as they are demons, not less, precisely because templars will watch spirit healers even more closely than other mages.[/quote]

I don't know... wouldn't they do more than watch closely if they knew for a fact a mage had made a deal with a demon, regardless of what the deal was?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

...


...


...

That's horrible. Horrible. Terrible.

Cullen knows it's Anders and that Anders is a known apostate and hangs out with Hawke and Anders is there, and Cullen is all like - cool, I'll tell someone sometime.

The only possible justification is that Cullen is functionally retarded. Think about it - the trauma in Ferelden so addled him that he is no longer capable of thought.

He sees Hawke cast magic but is too stupid to understand Hawke is a mage. It works for everything!
[/quote]

You can also warn Elthina to no avail.

[quote]Silfren wrote...

No, he's giving a predictable response to the Warden's reply about aiming too low. Context matters, and there's nothing there to indicate he's hiding his true feelings beneath humor. It's just a non-serious remark, not meant to mean anything sinister. Answering "you're aiming too low" with hyperbole is one of the oldest and cheapest forms of snark in existence.[/quote]

Speaking of old, how old is Anders by Act III? Maybe he's too old to be guilty. We haven't considered that, have we?

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I find to be meh is that only the Qunari managed to create gunpowder while the rest are scratching their heads, including the genius dwarves. But then Anders masters the science of explosives in a rotting clinic with bare minimum ingredients and still managed to make it explode either with an implausibly perfect sense of timing, or via remote control.

How?
[/quote]

.... A wizard did it?

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...
But Hawke could still have been sitting up nights coming up with schemes to take down the Chantry.
[/quote]

That made me chuckle.
[/quote]

And it's true, but again, railroad plot. The whole time I was doing A Murder of Crows quest, I'm muttering "why can't I hire the Crows to take out Meredith? they've got represenatives RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!"

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

Anders was planning this for a long time, out of his own mouth, 'I took a spirit into myself and changed myself forever to achieve this'. He didn't take Justice into him in kirkwall.

'To achieve this' is relevant, he had planned it before he got off the boat. How can people be sucked in by him, he is manipulative to a tee. He has to be to achieve what he is planning. 

Firstly, it's different with the rivalry ending, so whatever he does in the friendship path is not canon.  Secondly, I don't think that Anders really did know what he was ultimately going to do when he agreed to Justice's deal.  His statement doesn't have to be literally interpreted to mean that the moment he let Justice possess him, he was planning to explode a major Chantry. 

I think by the end of the friendship path, he's mostly come to terms with something he wasn't nearly so reconciled with at the beginning. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You'd be surprised. Other than modern examples, a medieval example is Almanzor in Muslim Spain. That guy was a political mastermind, and he started off as a peasant in Algeciras (though since they were educated and literate then, maybe it's a bit different).

Hell, Loghain is a great example and he's a DA character himself. But I guess one could argue his political ability is tied to something Hawke won't always have going for him: being a massive, massive douchebag.
"

I love Loghain, but he's not that politically competent and could only "function" properly with Maric as a front. 

But yea, the Hero of the River Dane is vastly more impressive than the "Champion" whose only achievement in life is to slaughter well.

[Deztyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders himself is quite devout, so that's easy, but I'm not sure how you can skew pro-templar unless you side with Meredith throughout Act 3.

Despite what the end game would have you believe, there is a whole range of opinions between "Yay, Meredith!" and "Yay, blood mages!"

[Xilizhra]

Loghain's main accomplishment was telling other people to slaughter well; he was an absolutely terrible politician.

[Xilizhra]

Deztyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders himself is quite devout, so that's easy, but I'm not sure how you can skew pro-templar unless you side with Meredith throughout Act 3.

Despite what the end game would have you believe, there is a whole range of opinions between "Yay, Meredith!" and "Yay, blood mages!"

Yep. "Boo, genocide, but take out the crazed blood mages we meet on the way!" Oh, wait.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain's main accomplishment was telling other people to slaughter well

Way to understate what it means to be a general and leader of men in war involving a band of peasants against an empire.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain's main accomplishment was telling other people to slaughter well

Way to understate what it means to be a general and leader of men in war involving a band of peasants against an empire.

Granted. However, I believe that you underestimate Hawke as well; she's an absolute tactical genius, taking a small team to victory against far larger enemy forces time and time again. As for personal skills, well, most of the relationship paths can show how persuasive she can be. I believe that only two things make her look moronic: The First Sacrifice and the timeskips.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
However, I believe that you underestimate Hawke as well; she's an absolute tactical genius, taking a small team to victory against far larger enemy forces time and time again.

I don't take gameplay in DA as representative of anything really, especially not with an implausible wave system implemented in the game. And Bioware's complete failure at portraying warfare and tactical engagements adequately. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of gore. Unless I am supposed to think that Hawke is so powerful, she can make people explode with her sword.

So at the end, she is no more impressive to me than the white power ranger with his band of teenagers

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 02:06 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
However, I believe that you underestimate Hawke as well; she's an absolute tactical genius, taking a small team to victory against far larger enemy forces time and time again.

I don't take gameplay in DA as representative of anything really, especially not with an implausible wave system implemented in the game. And Bioware's complete failure at portraying warfare and tactical engagements adequately.

So at the end, she is no more impressive to me than the white power ranger with his band of teenagers

That would be because most players aren't tactical geniuses and wouldn't be able to cope with accurate scenes in-game.

[Silfren]

RangerSG wrote...

No, you can't play a PC that 'encourages' Anders to blow up te Chantry, because Anders specifically states he gave the Champion plausible deniability to avoid guilt blowing back. You can play a PC that agrees with what Anders did, but honestly my inclination has always been if he wanted to be a "freedom fighter," he should've went after the REAL problem, of course then we wouldn't have a plot.

ROFL.  He did go after the real problem.  He blew up the Chantry and killed the Grand Cleric in the process.  He attacked the institution that forces the mages to be locked up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
That would be because most players aren't tactical geniuses and wouldn't be able to cope with accurate scenes in-game.

Which is why I won't take gameplay as it stands as representative of much until Bioware puts more effort into it.

She is a good warrior, I'll give her that. But I refuse to believe that she can make people implode with swords, daggers and arrows.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 02:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough. I just prefer to believe that my protagonist is competent. It makes me enjoy the game more (and believe me, I want to, because the actual gameplay is way more fun to me than Origins).

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That was it. The knowledge that the templars could be defied.

Its obvious they can, tevinter is ruled by mages. 

Templars in Tevinter don't operate the same way as those elsewhere in Thedas.  In other words, comparison fail.

[Deztyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders himself is quite devout, so that's easy, but I'm not sure how you can skew pro-templar unless you side with Meredith throughout Act 3.

Despite what the end game would have you believe, there is a whole range of opinions between "Yay, Meredith!" and "Yay, blood mages!"

Yep. "Boo, genocide, but take out the crazed blood mages we meet on the way!" Oh, wait.

... you realize it's possible to take each situation as it comes and not declare a 'side' until Meredith forces you to after Anders' Big Boom? And that even if you do go pro-templar all the way, you can still change your mind and go mage to help defend the helpless little Gallows apprentices?

... and that even if you are pro-mage all the way a diplomatic, Andrastian Hawke who loves Anders might find it a touch upsetting to be an accomplice to the unprovoked attack on a building representing her faith?

[Xilizhra]

... and that even if you are pro-mage all the way a diplomatic, Andrastian Hawke who loves Anders might find it a touch upsetting to be an accomplice to the unprovoked attack on a building representing her faith?

I have far, far fewer problems with killing Anders than siding with Meredith. I even did it myself once, but considered it unsatisfying.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. I just prefer to believe that my protagonist is competent. It makes me enjoy the game more (and believe me, I want to, because the actual gameplay is way more fun to me than Origins).

I would have enjoyed the gameplay much more if it weren't for the wave after wave after wave system in every single bloody fight. And if we had sidequests that did not involve constant slaughter, but every single one of them does and in the wave load.

It wasn't the fun kind of challenging, it was annoying (at least on hard).  You dont' need waves to make a game challenging in a fun way. TW2 does it perfectly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 02:17 .