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[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

... and that even if you are pro-mage all the way a diplomatic, Andrastian Hawke who loves Anders might find it a touch upsetting to be an accomplice to the unprovoked attack on a building representing her faith?

I have far, far fewer problems with killing Anders than siding with Meredith. I even did it myself once, but considered it unsatisfying.

I don't see that much point is killing him if one sides with mages, unless it's by principle. Which I don't often care for.

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

I find it hard to believe that in 700 years there hasn't been at least one unjustified RoA other than Kirkwall's. 

Of course not, I'd say.  Probably more than not have been unjustified, I'd bet.  But there's been 17 Annulments.  It's not a stretch to believe that this is the first Annulment for which the mages had an outside supporter to stand up for them and help them to defy it.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

... and that even if you are pro-mage all the way a diplomatic, Andrastian Hawke who loves Anders might find it a touch upsetting to be an accomplice to the unprovoked attack on a building representing her faith?

I have far, far fewer problems with killing Anders than siding with Meredith. I even did it myself once, but considered it unsatisfying.

I don't see that much point is killing him if one sides with mages, unless it's by principle. Which I don't often care for.

Securing Sebastian and by extension Starkhaven as an ally. However, I don't really believe he'd be reliable in the role.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. I just prefer to believe that my protagonist is competent. It makes me enjoy the game more (and believe me, I want to, because the actual gameplay is way more fun to me than Origins).

I would have enjoyed the gameplay much more if it weren't for the wave after wave after wave system in every single bloody fight. And if we had sidequests that did not involve constant slaughter, but every single one of them does and in the wave load.

It wasn't the fun kind of challenging, it was annoying (at least on hard).  You dont' need waves to make a game challenging in a fun way. TW2 does it perfectly.

Ugh. TW2? I thought you were better than that.
Snobbery aside, I play on Normal and the waves are less annoying there, while still motivating me to want to play the best way possible.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Silfren wrote...
But there's been 17 Annulments.  It's not a stretch to believe that this is the first Annulment for which the mages had an outside supporter to stand up for them and help them to defy it.

What outside supporter? Hawke? He doesn't have to stand with them.
Anders? Again, he could die and not help at all (and apparently he can even join Hawke in massacring the Circle) and what he did was before a RoA was declared.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

... and that even if you are pro-mage all the way a diplomatic, Andrastian Hawke who loves Anders might find it a touch upsetting to be an accomplice to the unprovoked attack on a building representing her faith?

I have far, far fewer problems with killing Anders than siding with Meredith. I even did it myself once, but considered it unsatisfying.

I don't see that much point is killing him if one sides with mages, unless it's by principle. Which I don't often care for.

Securing Sebastian and by extension Starkhaven as an ally. However, I don't really believe he'd be reliable in the role.

I highly doubt he would be willing to defy the Chantry militarily. Assumign that Starkhaven is even capable.

[Xilizhra]

I highly doubt he would be willing to defy the Chantry militarily. Assumign that Starkhaven is even capable.

More or less why I no longer bother killing Anders.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ugh. TW2? I thought you were better than that.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Ugh. TW2? I thought you were better than that.

If you took a hot knife, cut out everything to do with sex, and poured vinegar over what was left, I might enjoy the game and not think of it as a sexist blight on humanity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Ugh. TW2? I thought you were better than that.

If you took a hot knife, cut out everything to do with sex, and poured vinegar over what was left, I might enjoy the game and not think of it as a sexist blight on humanity.

TW1 had it a lot more than TW2.
Not enough for me not to love both games, and certainly not enough for me to not consider TW2 the best RPG I've ever played.

So sadly, I am not as good as you thought I was (?).

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't see that much point is killing him if one sides with mages, unless it's by principle. Which I don't often care for.

Easy, KoP. Anders isn't stable and can do far more harm to his cause than good if left to his own devices during a revolution. Justice doesn't play well with anything that challenges his view of righteousness and Anders doesn't have the control to keep him in line. His own words indicate as much when we first meet him during Act I, during Act II we have Ella, during Act III, on the rivalry path it's clear he has no control of himself and Justice will do what he feels he must.

It's a mercy killing.

Modifié par Deztyn, 24 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Never mind that when Hawke comes across that letter, she has "O" to go by, not "Orsino" and not only is there no reason to assume those books came from the Kirkwall Circle, you have the fact that Hawke at the time is a little preoccupied with more urgent matters than taking the time to ponder who "O" is.

The whole "O" thing is dumber than a Pauly Shore movie too if you ask me. Who the **** signs their name with one letter? He just got done writing words like "fascinating" and "colleague" but suddenly he's too lazy to write his own name? What, did carpal tunnel just set in? Oh, I know, people are going to say it's so it couldn't be traced back to him if found. If that's the case why use part of his real name at all? Why wouldn't they use code of some kind? I recommend his alias be "Count Chocula." I just don't remember the James Bond movie where he signs his name "-B" to avoid detection. Because I mean... Ooo, there we go, medication just kicked in. Sorry, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Um.  I...uh...er...I kinda sorta sign my name with "A" kind of...often?  *hides*

Silfren wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
No, he's giving a predictable response to the Warden's reply about aiming too low. Context matters, and there's nothing there to indicate he's hiding his true feelings beneath humor. It's just a non-serious remark, not meant to mean anything sinister. Answering "you're aiming too low" with hyperbole is one of the oldest and cheapest forms of snark in existence.

Speaking of old, how old is Anders by Act III? Maybe he's too old to be guilty. We haven't considered that, have we?

i c wut u did there.  *snerk*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't see that much point is killing him if one sides with mages, unless it's by principle. Which I don't often care for.

Easy, KoP, Anders isn't stable and can do far more harm to his cause than good if left to his own devices during a revolution.

But that's the thing, I wasn't planning on leaving him to his own devices. In regards to causing destruction and death, Anders proved himself quite resourceful and talented. Under the right command, he could be a powerful asset and also a means to study Justice and see if possession or "demonization" can be reversed.

But that's back when I still quite naively thought that Hawke could be a leader of some sort. So yea, you may have a point there.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 02:34 .

[Deztyn]

Hawke can't control him in game, even when she knows that he's up to no good, so. . . yeah.

I left him alive once just to see what happened, but it's always a meeting with Mr. Murderknife now.

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...
But there's been 17 Annulments.  It's not a stretch to believe that this is the first Annulment for which the mages had an outside supporter to stand up for them and help them to defy it.

What outside supporter? Hawke? He doesn't have to stand with them.
Anders? Again, he could die and not help at all (and apparently he can even join Hawke in massacring the Circle) and what he did was before a RoA was declared.

My point was that this could well have been the first time anyone outside the Circle tried to help the mages defy the Annulment.  You've got a point about Hawke not having to help the mages, which doesn't explain the templar ending, but nevertheless, that was my point.  It had nothing to do with Hawke or Anders per se, just that persons outside the Circle, in the pro-mage ending, stepped in to defy the Annulment.  Also, I didn't say anything about what Anders did before the Right, because it had nothing to do with my point.  If during the other Annulments, the mages were in, say, Ferelden situations where they'd been locked in and there was nothing between them and the templars, well...it's not completely implausible that this was the first Annulment that inspired mages to fight back.  Especially since Annulments aren't--thankfully--that common.  We don't know the precise details of the other Annulments, only what we saw during the (possibly incomplete) one in Broken Circle.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...

Hawke can't control him in game, even when she knows that he's up to no good, so. . . yeah.

I was still trying to enjoy the game dammit

[Ryzaki]

Actually the mages rising up when Anders and Hawke side with the templars is more bizarre the more I think about it. :/

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually the mages rising up when Anders and Hawke side with the templars is more bizarre the more I think about it. :/

Mages: "Anders destroyed a symbol of hatred!!! Rise up!"

Random guy: "Um, he also joined Hawke in slaughtering all them mages"

Mages: "Oh....well the mages were able to fight the Templars as equals!"

Guy: "They were slaughtered in one night despite having all the defensive advantages of being in an Island fortress with funnels and an idiot KC who gave them time to prepare."

Mages: "....Well at least mages led by Orsino stood bravely and honorably to the last as they fought for freedom!"

Guy: "Actually, Orsino killed some mages, used blood magic and turned himself into a crazy monstrous corpse eating Harvester and got himself killed very easily in the process."

Mages: ".......Yea we're going home, screw this."

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 03:33 .

[Xilizhra]

In short, the templar ending should never have existed at all. Choosing to side with the Resolutionists to overthrow the Circle, or join Cullen's forces to kill the blood mages only to render the Annulment unnecessary, would have been far better.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually the mages rising up when Anders and Hawke side with the templars is more bizarre the more I think about it. :/

Mages: "Anders destroyed a symbol of hatred!!! Rise up!"

Random guy: "Um, he also joined Hawke in slaughtering all them mages"

Mages: "Oh....well the mages were able to fight the Templars as equals!"

Guy: "They were slaughtered in one night despite having all the defensive advantages of being in an Island fortress with funnels and an idiot KC who gave them time to prepare."

Mages: "....Well at least mages led by Orsino stood bravely and honorably to the last as they fought for freedom!"

Guy: "Actually, Orsino killed some mages, used blood magic and turned himself into a crazy monstrous corpse eating Harvester and got himself killed very easily in the process."

Mages: ".......Yea we're going home, screw this."

 

If that ends up happening in DA3 I'll die laughing. 

And really that's what should've happened with the templar ending. I'm guessing something else must've provoked them. Because...the templar ending isn't cutting it. 

And the templar ending totally should exist. Otherwise both sides should've been cut and Hawke should've been forced to help Aveline guard the civilians. (Which...in the long run probably would've made more sense....) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mai 2011 - 03:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
And really that's what should've happened with the templar ending. I'm guessing something else must've provoked them. Because...the templar ending isn't cutting it.

Templars hardening or word of the "final solution" reaching more ears and more legitimacy amongst Chantry extremists.

[Xilizhra]

And the templar ending totally should exist. Otherwise both sides should've been cut and Hawke should've been forced to help Aveline guard the civilians. (Which...in the long run probably would've made more sense....)

The dangers of magic were overemphasized to inflate the necessity of the templars. They should have just gone with the "default" opinion of many players beforehand; it could have made the story seem a lot less stupid.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

And the templar ending totally should exist. Otherwise both sides should've been cut and Hawke should've been forced to help Aveline guard the civilians. (Which...in the long run probably would've made more sense....)

The dangers of magic were overemphasized to inflate the necessity of the templars. They should have just gone with the "default" opinion of many players beforehand; it could have made the story seem a lot less stupid.

There were few enough choices in this game as was. And I have no desire to be railroaded into siding with the mages. If anything that would've made me anti-mage. "Why am I railroaded into helping this lot? Laaame. They can't even figure out how to use a funnel to their advantage!" 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And really that's what should've happened with the templar ending. I'm guessing something else must've provoked them. Because...the templar ending isn't cutting it.

Templars hardening or word of the "final solution" reaching more ears and more legitimacy amongst Chantry extremists.

Personally I'm more fond of the templars taking a harsher stance on rogue mages (and mages in the circle) all around as a result of Anders' actions. Then the mages feel strangled and lash out. 

The final solution always felt silly to me. If you're gonna do that why not just kill em all and save yourself the cost of feeding them? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mai 2011 - 04:00 .

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

And the templar ending totally should exist. Otherwise both sides should've been cut and Hawke should've been forced to help Aveline guard the civilians. (Which...in the long run probably would've made more sense....)

The dangers of magic were overemphasized to inflate the necessity of the templars. They should have just gone with the "default" opinion of many players beforehand; it could have made the story seem a lot less stupid.

Eh?  The default opinions of the players or the real opinions of everyone in the land?  BioWare went to the extreme on both sides in DA2 but if people think that the majority of the populace a) Hates the chantry hates all templars and c) think all mages are hard done by I think you have another thing coming.  There is a heck of a lot more to the world than this little capsule we found ourselves in DA2.

Modifié par Beerfish, 24 mai 2011 - 03:59 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
The final solution always felt silly to me. If you're gonna do that why not just kill em all and save yourself the cost of feeding them? 

$.
Even he is not that stupid.