4350 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The law is that the Right of Annulment is used if the Circle is compromised by blood magic, demonic influence, or abominations... had it not been for all the mages in the "underground" sneaking people out of the Gallows, and folks like Orsino, they might have had a chance.

Meredith orders the Right of Annulment because of what Anders did, not because of Orsino's actions. She makes this very clear when she's demanding Hawke's assistance in performing the Right of Annulment.

Icy Magebane wrote...

As it stands, the Gallows was corrupted beyond repair.

Given our ignorance of what the many men, women, and children of the Circle of Kirkwall were like, and how limited our interactions were with the few Circle mages we did meet, how do you know this?

Icy Magebane wrote...

There is no way that so much disregard for the law could have taken place with nobody noticing... but if the non-blood mages were too focused on trying to escape than do anything to correct the situation, it's their own fault how things ended up.

It's the mages fault that an insane Knight-Commander who declared herself dictator over the city-state ordered the execution of every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall with magical ability because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina? Is it also their fault they were forced by the Chantry to live in a vile enviornment where mages were getting raped by the templars (like Alain and nearly Ella), and illegally made tranquil (like Karl and nearly Ella)?

Icy Magebane wrote...

Whether or not it's a complete purge is up to the player since there's a point where you can choose to spare some mages who have surrendered...

You mean three mages, who may be made tranquil as Gaider suggested. Considering this incident was bad enough that it sparked a continential revolution among all the Circles of Magi, this Right of Annulment had to be as bad (or even worse) than all the previous Rights of Annulment to incite the Circles of Magi to break free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars, even with the threat of death.

Icy Magebane wrote...

Blood magic is forbidden.

Unless you happen to be a Grey Warden, of course.

[DKJaigen]

Indeed, freedom from Chantry, not necessarily from laws, but who could control them ? Only the Templars really have the capacity.

Do they?

[IanPolaris]

Merela wrote...

Myabe that, by "people like you and me", he meant "People not able to destroy a whole building only by sneezing"? Who knows...

No he doesn't.  How do I know?  Because you can deny what he said with a follow up option (You're wrong) and say that no, mages are human beings, and elves like anyone else.

His response:

"Many go through their whole lives believing that...."  He then procedes to deny that mages are people and considers those that think so as idealistic fools.

It's very clear that Cullen does not view mages as poeple, period, and that earns him permanent villian status until that changes (which it never does).

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Merela wrote...

Myabe that, by "people like you and me", he meant "People not able to destroy a whole building only by sneezing"? Who knows...

Even assuming that's what he meant, depriving someone of their personhood in the eyes of the law and their fellow man is still wrong.  It's wrong whether they are powerful, disagree with your philosophies or commit crimes.  The Tranquil are closer to being non-people by virtue of having been stripped of any and all emotion - and that's a crime the Templars commit AGAINST the mages.  Stripping some group of their personhood in the eyes of the common folk is almost always the first step in every great attrocity.

[GavrielKay]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith orders the Right of Annulment because of what Anders did, not because of Orsino's actions. She makes this very clear when she's demanding Hawke's assistance in performing the Right of Annulment.

I think it's even worse than that.  We know early in Act 3 that she's already requested the RoA.  Anders is just an excuse to stop waiting for permission from a higher authority.  She always mistrusted the mages and held a guilty until proven innocent view, and the dubious plot device of the idol makes it so that whatever spark of rational thought she might have had left dies out.  I think she wants to kill the mages because she wants them dead.  Anders blowing up the Chantry simply gives her the support of the rest of Kirkwall and sometimes even the PC.

We know that she uses Anders as her excuse, but I don't think it's her reason.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

The circle is completely corrupt, Orsino has lost control, it is himself corrupt. More than half of the circle is probably corrupt, but in fact there are some innocent people like Bethany.

Orsino does indeed lose his mind, but is the entire Circle of Kirkwall corrupt? I don't think we meet enough of the Circle mages to make such an assessment. How many are there? Hundreds? Thousands? Isn't the Gallows the former prison of the slaves of the Imperium, where thousands were kept? Isn't the Circle of Kirkwall the only Circle of Magi throughout the Free Marches, since the Starkhaven Circle burned down? Weren't the mages from Starkhaven re-directed to the Gallows? I think we meet a fraction of the mages.

Many mages we meet are apostates and have no clear affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall. We do meet some, like the insane Huon or the abomination Evelina, but we also meet the child Ella who only wanted to see her mother and let her know she was still alive (since the templars never told her mother what happened to her) and the childish Emile, who only wanted to lose his virginity. Even the renegade mages with Grace are operating with Ser Thrask and his renegade templars - Alain makes it clear he sided with Ser Thrask, not with Grace. Their goal was to remove the dictator Meredith from power when Grace decided to lose her mind and ruin everything.

Sylvianus wrote...

Two choices are needed. Winning at any cost, or eliminate the threat of one shots, causing also the dead of innocents, or choose to save these innocents, but also all this corruption, all these mages corrupt, destroy the last strength of the order.

If Anders is not killed, Sebastian will lead his armies against Kirkwall, which will add even more chaos.

That's assuming Sebastian is capable of wresting control of Starkhaven all on his own, and that's only if Anders is spared. If he's killed, he will side with Hawke against the templars. Maybe this will influence how Sebastian shall react to the Order of Templars if Hawke decides to help him reclaim control over his homeland.

Sylvianus wrote...

Sorry, but I have seen marked nowhere they fled. Sebastian doesn't send his army for nothing, it is indeed to take over the city and do justice cons mages if templars are destroyed.

Then allow to escape many of mages who fall in the dark side ? Hmm. Not very comforting. I'm sorry, Kirkwall contains very little innocents and good side, and even these innocents become abominations. Released into the wild, people would be in danger.

There's no evidence all the innocent men, women, and children become abominations. Also, Varric addresses that the survivors go to the other Circles of Magi and inform them about what happened at the Kirkwall Circle. I doubt any enchanter, mage, or apprentice is going to stay in Kirkwall when the templars are killing their people.

[IanPolaris]

GavrielKay wrote...

We know that she uses Anders as her excuse, but I don't think it's her reason.

Indeed.  Other than search and rescue in what was left of the Chantry, there was no emergency in the city and the culprit was right there, confessed, and turned himself in.

Given that Meredith COULD have kept the Gallows in lockdown and asked Guard Captain Aveline to keep order in Kirkwall (which we know she does).  She then could have sent a courier to the Divine informing her of the changed situation and asking for the RIght of Annulment.

If Mereidth CARED about her justifications, that is what she would (and frankly should) have done.

However, as you correctly note, she didn't care.  She just wanted all mages dead.  Period.

-Polaris

[Merela]

Is it the good time for reminding that she's also under the influence of Soul Edge? Forged with the same lyrium which destroyed Bartrand's mind?

Modifié par Merela, 04 mai 2011 - 07:42 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

WHy the feck should Meredith wait with teh Annulment? If she was going to wait for the Divine's approval, the situation could have gone from bad, to total ****storm. Meredith had the authority to call it, she did, and would then have to make her case to the Divine afterwards.
Time is not really a luxury the Templars have when it comes to annulment.

On a side note: Mages AREN'T people like you and me. So how is Cullen wrong?

[TEWR]

even if she had sent a messenger to the Divine with news of the changed events, she still wouldn't have been justified in enacting the RoA if she was given permission because the Circle still had nothing to do with it.

It's the logical thing that she should've done, but it wouldn't be justified so long as the Circle wasn't beyond salvation.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

On a side note: Mages AREN'T people like you and me. So how is Cullen wrong?

See, that sort of flat out conviction bears no discussion.  Depriving someone of their rights as a person is pretty hard to justify under any circumstances at all.  Saying they have abilities that non-mages don't doesn't come close for me.  Hawke can kill with a single blow and move on to the next opponent while Anders is still whirling his staff around in some funky arcane dance.  Who has the power to be feared, then?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHy the feck should Meredith wait with teh Annulment? If she was going to wait for the Divine's approval, the situation could have gone from bad, to total ****storm. Meredith had the authority to call it, she did, and would then have to make her case to the Divine afterwards.
Time is not really a luxury the Templars have when it comes to annulment.

On a side note: Mages AREN'T people like you and me. So how is Cullen wrong?

So you don't think mages should be treated like people either?  I'll give you full marks for consistancy if nothing else.

Why?  There wasn't a citywide emergency UNTIL Meredith declared war on all mages.  There was a terrorist act and associated mayhem with that, but the guilty party was already in custody and already confessed.

Until Meredith declares a Right of Annulment on her own authority, there simply wasn't an emergency situation!  Given that fact, the prudent thing to do would be to stabiize the situation and ask for advice from up the chain of command.

Meredith didn't do it because she wanted all mages dead and wasn't sure (and with good reason) the Divine would go along with that.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

even if she had sent a messenger to the Divine with news of the changed events, she still wouldn't have been justified in enacting the RoA if she was given permission because the Circle still had nothing to do with it.

It's the logical thing that she should've done, but it wouldn't be justified so long as the Circle wasn't beyond salvation.

I don't disagree.  I am merely stating that if Meredith really felt the new situation justified the RIght of Annulment, there was no logical reason for her NOT to get the OK of the Divine.  Yes, I know (per DG/WoG) she wasn't legally required to, but given that the Divine was going to send a new Grand Cleric and review this carefully anyway, it would have been a damned good idea!

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

Icy Magebane wrote...

It just gets tiresome hearing the same judgmental speeches from people willing to allow anybody and everybody with magic power to wander around without any restrictions.  Supporting the Right of Annulment is a noble action.  Depending, of course, on the outlook of the player in question.

Isn't it grand how much people like Icy here have to lie to make their point sound plausible?  If you ever wonder if you're on the right side of a debate, just look and see if the other side has to resort to spreading lies.  Works wonders!

Merela wrote...

Myabe that, by "people like you and me", he meant "People not able to destroy a whole building only by sneezing"? Who knows...

As IanPolaris pointed out, everyone who took the right dialogue tree knows.  Cullen does not view mages as people.  Dehumanization is a big step on the path that ends with a swastika on one's uniform.

[Bigdoser]

Treating mages like people would of prevented this whole situation to begin with >_>

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

even if she had sent a messenger to the Divine with news of the changed events, she still wouldn't have been justified in enacting the RoA if she was given permission because the Circle still had nothing to do with it.

It's the logical thing that she should've done, but it wouldn't be justified so long as the Circle wasn't beyond salvation.

I don't disagree.  I am merely stating that if Meredith really felt the new situation justified the RIght of Annulment, there was no logical reason for her NOT to get the OK of the Divine.  Yes, I know (per DG/WoG) she wasn't legally required to, but given that the Divine was going to send a new Grand Cleric and review this carefully anyway, it would have been a damned good idea!

-Polaris

oh I know and I agree. It would've made her seem slightly more like a normal and rational thinking person.

Even so, she and Orsino played right into Anders' plans. I think he was expecting her to call the RoA because of his actions.

Also, could someone find me a Rivalry clip of Anders blowing up the Chantry?

edit: never mind, I found one. It seems as if he was fully aware the bomb was planted. That's.... not right if he's on Rivalry and Justice/Vengeance takes over a lot of the time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mai 2011 - 08:00 .

[Merela]

Rifneno wrote...

Merela wrote...

Myabe that, by "people like you and me", he meant "People not able to destroy a whole building only by sneezing"? Who knows...

As IanPolaris pointed out, everyone who took the right dialogue tree knows.  Cullen does not view mages as people.  Dehumanization is a big step on the path that ends with a swastika on one's uniform.

I took all the options. I know what Cullen said, thank you very much. And though my mage Hawke didn't agree with him then, the following years made her totally change her mind. Maybe it was...morally repugnant, but she was more worried about protecting the town and its people.

Me, on the other hand...I don't know. I'm not sure it's a good idea to allow mages to happily run around freely when, in their dreams, they're the preys of demons who, if they took their bodies, would maybe happily and freely slaughter innocent people.

Modifié par Merela, 04 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[IanPolaris]

Merela wrote...

Me, on the other hand...I don't know. I'm not sure it's a good idea to allow mages to happily run around freely when, in their dreams, they're the preys of demons who, if they took their bodies, would maybe happily and freely slaughter innocent people.

*sigh*  We aren't saying that and I get tired of having to debunk this time and again (and even the GAME uses the same strawman).  We (pro-mage) people aren't saying that mages should be free to do anything they want with magic with no controls and no consequences.  Saying so is fear mongering IMO.  We agree that magic can be dangerous especially untrained and magic and mages should be regulated (including mandatory training).

What we ARE saying is the mechanism has to recognize the fundamental fact that mages are people and need to be treated as such and with dignity and not as lepers or worse.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Merela wrote...

Me, on the other hand...I don't know. I'm not sure it's a good idea to allow mages to happily run around freely when, in their dreams, they're the preys of demons who, if they took their bodies, would maybe happily and freely slaughter innocent people.

*sigh*  We aren't saying that and I get tired of having to debunk this time and again (and even the GAME uses the same strawman).  We (pro-mage) people aren't saying that mages should be free to do anything they want with magic with no controls and no consequences.  Saying so is fear mongering IMO.  We agree that magic can be dangerous especially untrained and magic and mages should be regulated (including mandatory training).

What we ARE saying is the mechanism has to recognize the fundamental fact that mages are people and need to be treated as such and with dignity and not as lepers or worse.

-Polaris

So true.  It's sad when debunking a forum strawman may make its way to one's G15 hotkey list.

[Merela]

Well, let's just agree we disagree and then go away.

[IanPolaris]

Merela wrote...

Well, let's just agree we disagree and then go away.

As the late Sen Moinyhan (sp?) once said, "You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts."

It's one thing to disagree with my opinion. It's quite another to claim that I am arguing for something when I am not.  You are not the only offender.  Bioware ITSELF does this too in the game (claiming that all those that support mages want NO regulation on magic when nothing could be further from the truth).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHy the feck should Meredith wait with teh Annulment? If she was going to wait for the Divine's approval, the situation could have gone from bad, to total ****storm. Meredith had the authority to call it, she did, and would then have to make her case to the Divine afterwards.
Time is not really a luxury the Templars have when it comes to annulment.

On a side note: Mages AREN'T people like you and me. So how is Cullen wrong?

So you don't think mages should be treated like people either?  I'll give you full marks for consistancy if nothing else.

Why?  There wasn't a citywide emergency UNTIL Meredith declared war on all mages.  There was a terrorist act and associated mayhem with that, but the guilty party was already in custody and already confessed.

Until Meredith declares a Right of Annulment on her own authority, there simply wasn't an emergency situation!  Given that fact, the prudent thing to do would be to stabiize the situation and ask for advice from up the chain of command.

Meredith didn't do it because she wanted all mages dead and wasn't sure (and with good reason) the Divine would go along with that.

-Polaris

I think mages should be treated as mages. To think they are just like anyone else is naïve.

The Chantry had just been blown to pieces. I'm sorry, but there was an emergency in Kirkwall. Anders was the guilty party, indeed, but giving him to the mob, would probably not appease their thirst for vengeance. The common man would see the bomb as an act of mages, and their anger would be directed at mages. The place with the most mages they all know of, is the Gallows, the mobs' anger would be direced that way, Anders' death or not. Meredith concluded the only way to stabilize the situation without harming the people of Kirkwall, was to Annul the Circle. Of course a lot of stuff factored in to make that plan run its course less than smoothly.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bigdoser wrote...

Treating mages like people would of prevented this whole situation to begin with >_>

Would it? Or would it just have spawned another much more terrible situation?
At least now the mages have a chance to proove all of us wrong, one way or another.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The common man would see the bomb as an act of mages, and their anger would be directed at mages. The place with the most mages they all know of, is the Gallows, the mobs' anger would be direced that way, Anders' death or not. Meredith concluded the only way to stabilize the situation without harming the people of Kirkwall, was to Annul the Circle. Of course a lot of stuff factored in to make that plan run its course less than smoothly.

Yeah, the common man would like lots of things.  The job of the Templars and city guard is to ensure the safety of everyone, not just the popular folks.  The circle mages didn't commit the crime and shouldn't have to bear the punishment.  The lynch mob needed to be stopped, not fed blood.

Edit:  Wanted to add that in fact the mages are also "people of Kirkwall" and deserve the same protection.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 04 mai 2011 - 08:32 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even the codex states the main reason for the Circles' creation as the threat of demons. The Templars are there to protect the common man, that is their only task. While the Chantry may use Templars for ulterior motives, the Templars have none of those.

Actually, Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established the Chantry of Andraste, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi because he was a member of a particular Cult of Andraste (History of the Chantry: Chapter 4). During the time of Divine Ambrosia II, the mages were imprisoned because they held a nonviolent protest against their lack of rights (History of the Circle). In fact, Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March against the mages who barricaded themselves in her cathedral because they were protesting their lack of rights, and this lead to the modern day imprisonment in Circle Towers.