4350 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yep and that's what Anders failed to realize. And quite arrogantly dismisses the dangers of magic as only pertaining to "people like you". Perhaps without realizing it, he already made up his mind that it's a war between "us" (mages) and "them" (not Templars, but everyone else). Because like the game says, he is paranoid.

Yeah, I don't know enough about getting people to participate in a revolution to know if Anders' move was necessary to get things going or not.  I don't know how you get the mages who are scattered about the world and kept under lock and key to collaborate in a revolution without something huge that everyone will know about.

How do you kick off a revolution under the circumstances as presented?  And do it in such a way that you get more public support rather than less.

[GavrielKay]

Wulfram wrote...

Allies for the mages probably won't depend on sympathy, but on desperation.

In some ways, the best thing that could happen for the Mage rebellion would be a Qunari invasion or a Blight, since then Andrastean Thedas would have little choice but to make a deal.

Interesting.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  If the mages were instrumental in defeating an invading army, they could get the support they need. 

Being dependent on the Qunari time table woudn't be so nice though

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
How do you kick off a revolution under the circumstances as presented?  And do it in such a way that you get more public support rather than less.

Simple, appeal to their self-interest. In the context of Kirkwall, appeal to their hatred of Meredith and stress on the importance of maintaining their sovereignity, which mages can help them accomplish. An overthrowal of Meredith with mages, the populace, nobles and Templar dissidents is a much stronger symbol than a blown up building.

Also, seeing what happened in Act 2, remind them of how crucial the mages were in the war effort against the Qunari.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 03:56 .

[Beerfish]

HSHAW wrote...




Out of curiousity, can you think of any ways that mages have a chance of winning without use of the A (A for Anders) bomb?

Sure, they said that the # of mages around kirkwall had doubled over a short period of time.  A whole bunch of mages with a proper leader and a unified front could win for sure.  Especially if they went the blood magic demon route.  Hawke and co are very much the exception and mage groups they wipe the floor with would probably blow away a lot of normal guards, warriors or templars.  One of the big problems though would be to get all mages on side, a very good number fo them are not radicals nor do they want to be.  But if forced a large group of mages would be a formidable force with or without the bomb.

[TEWR]

I imagine that some of the populus would sympathize with the mages for two reasons:

1) If they heard the truth of what happened at Kirkwall, that may draw sympathizers to the mages' cause.
2) I imagine a good portion of Thedas' populus has or had a relative that was a mage at some point.

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Simple, appeal to their self-interest. In the context of Kirkwall, appeal to their hatred of Meredith and stress on the importance of maintaining their sovereignity, which mages can help them accomplish.

Also, seeing what happened in Act 2, remind them of how crucial the mages were in the war effort against the Qunari.

But how?  The majority of the mages are locked up.  Anders is unstable.  Attracting attention is likely to get the spokesperson killed or locked up.

Do you think if Hawke stepped up that she'd be protected and heard because of her status as Champion or would she just lose the backing of the nobles and paint herself a heretic?

[Beerfish]

Wulfram wrote...

Allies for the mages probably won't depend on sympathy, but on desperation.

In some ways, the best thing that could happen for the Mage rebellion would be a Qunari invasion or a Blight, since then Andrastean Thedas would have little choice but to make a deal.

Agreed, and I think that is exactly what is going to happen.  What better time for the Qunari to invade than when the land is in almost full out civil war and possibly no support from the mages.

The thing of course that should bring them back together is the Quns treatment of mages and what will happen if the Qunari get control.

[Beerfish]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
How do you kick off a revolution under the circumstances as presented?  And do it in such a way that you get more public support rather than less.

Simple, appeal to their self-interest. In the context of Kirkwall, appeal to their hatred of Meredith and stress on the importance of maintaining their sovereignity, which mages can help them accomplish. An overthrowal of Meredith with mages, the populace, nobles and Templar dissidents is a much stronger symbol than a blown up building.

Also, seeing what happened in Act 2, remind them of how crucial the mages were in the war effort against the Qunari.

The general populace do not hate Meredith at all.  I'd say most of the nobles and common folk like her for being hard on mages and even moreso in that whe was right in saying that the people will demand revenge for the chantry being destroyed and she will give it to them.  The biggest factor in who gets the most support in all of this is Hawke.  Beloved Champion, Qunari crusher and hero.  If they managed to get Hawke full on board there might, just might be a chance for support for mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
But how?  The majority of the mages are locked up. 

Orsino can get out and talk. Except he does it pretty badly.
Furthermore, many mages escaped and were assisted by the populace.

Anders is unstable. 

Hence why he should stfu and not do a thing.

Attracting attention is likely to get the spokesperson killed or locked up.

Unless they get enough supporters, and there are plenty of potential ones.

Do you think if Hawke stepped up that she'd be protected and heard because of her status as Champion or would she just lose the backing of the nobles and paint herself a heretic?

No, I think she would be protected and heard. Meredith does not kill or try to apprehend Hawke even as an apostate because she fears the consequences. Hawke has enough political clout and symbolic power / fame to do something, but of course that useless pile of fail does nothing.

I don't think mages can lead themselves to freedom. They will need an outside leader to do it for them, while making it part of a larger politicl agenda (that of sovereginity vs Chantry).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 04:04 .

[TEWR]

Beerfish wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
How do you kick off a revolution under the circumstances as presented?  And do it in such a way that you get more public support rather than less.

Simple, appeal to their self-interest. In the context of Kirkwall, appeal to their hatred of Meredith and stress on the importance of maintaining their sovereignity, which mages can help them accomplish. An overthrowal of Meredith with mages, the populace, nobles and Templar dissidents is a much stronger symbol than a blown up building.

Also, seeing what happened in Act 2, remind them of how crucial the mages were in the war effort against the Qunari.

The general populace do not hate Meredith at all.  I'd say most of the nobles and common folk like her for being hard on mages and even moreso in that whe was right in saying that the people will demand revenge for the chantry being destroyed and she will give it to them.  The biggest factor in who gets the most support in all of this is Hawke.  Beloved Champion, Qunari crusher and hero.  If they managed to get Hawke full on board there might, just might be a chance for support for mages.

The nobility in Kirkwall are lemmings. If Hawke supports Orsino, they despise Meredith and ask Hawke to be made Viscount. If Hawke sides with Meredith, they hate mages.

Just talk to them after the Act 3 opening segment when they're standing around.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Beerfish wrote...
The general populace do not hate Meredith at all. 

Yes they do, and Cullen says it.
And another Templar whose name I forgot says that the people are more likely to spit on Templar faces than help them.

The reason why the mage underground was so hard to defeat is because it had a lot of popular sympathy.

I'd say most of the nobles and common folk like her for being hard on mages.

Except many nobles see her for what she is. A usurper who illegally blocked the elections of a Viscount and even cracked down on several noble houses.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 04:06 .

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think mages can lead themselves to freedom. They will need an outside leader to do it for them, while making it part of a larger politicl agenda (that of sovereginity vs Chantry).

An outside leader could be helpful in terms of offsetting any sort of Tevinter-like feel of the mages trying to get out and take over.  If it comes from outside the mage circles it looks more like a humanitarian effort than a power grab.

Why did BioWare think it would be fun to have 3 year breaks where your character is comatose?  What justification could there be for Hawke to sit around and let her adopted city end up like this?  I'd either move away or try to fix it.  But no, she sits around and then lets Meredith drop an ultimatum on her.  Hmmph. 

If there were any kind of actual role playing involved, Meredith would have had a well placed crossbow bolt in her chest courtesy of Varric before she had a chance to call for the RoA. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am not really sure.

If they were aiming for powerlessness, then it becomes more powerful if it comes after attempts to make a difference. Not by being lazy. Because that's just being lazy, not powerless.

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not really sure.

If they were aiming for powerlessness, then it becomes more powerful if it comes after attempts to make a difference. Not by being lazy. Because that's just being lazy, not powerless.

Why would the devs aim for powerless though?  It isn't very satisfying as the player to realize you've just participated in an interactive movie where no decision you've made has any bearing on the outcome.  In DAO I got to save the world.  In DA2 I get to slink away from Kirkwall.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think a certain amount of powerlessness is humbling and could be interesting if done well. That said, I prefer bittersweet over Greek tragedy. I am not a fan of *complete* powerlessness. Nor am I a fan of masking laziness with it.

But I always want a certain amount of powerlessness and Origins had it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 04:34 .

[Beerfish]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


The nobility in Kirkwall are lemmings. If Hawke supports Orsino, they despise Meredith and ask Hawke to be made Viscount. If Hawke sides with Meredith, they hate mages.

Just talk to them after the Act 3 opening segment when they're standing around.

I never have seen them come out and say that the nobles or populace comes right out and supports either side.  They want Hawke as Viscount and then if Hawke comes out strongly in favour of either side they have an advantage.  The destruction of the Chantry is a game changer.  A lot depends on just how much of an agenda Hawke has.  Is he/she the type that has chosen a side and is willing to exploit his or her knowledge to further his/her agenda?  Is Hawke an honest person that will come out and be forthright with the people and nobles?  (As in, yes Meredith was too harsh and was also crazy and Orsino was crazy as well, both sides tried to kill me.)

[Beerfish]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Beerfish wrote...
The general populace do not hate Meredith at all. 

Yes they do, and Cullen says it.
And another Templar whose name I forgot says that the people are more likely to spit on Templar faces than help them.

The reason why the mage underground was so hard to defeat is because it had a lot of popular sympathy.

I'd say most of the nobles and common folk like her for being hard on mages.

Except many nobles see her for what she is. A usurper who illegally blocked the elections of a Viscount and even cracked down on several noble houses.

I'll have to look further for those quotes because they have bypassed me.  I've seen Cullen question Merediths competancy in the past but haven't noticed him come out and say that all the nobles and commoners hate meredith and think she is doing totally the wrong thing.

A also don't remember ever seeing the specifics of her blocking elections of a new viscount other than it being indicated that she had discouraged such a thing.  I also never saw a lot of popular sympathy for the mage underground.  A lot of mage sympathy, some sympathy amongst non mages but nothing that would make me thing people were lining up to help the cause.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Beerfish wrote...
I'll have to look further for those quotes because they have bypassed me.  I've seen Cullen question Merediths competancy in the past but haven't noticed him come out and say that all the nobles and commoners hate meredith and think she is doing totally the wrong thing.

He sends it to her in a letter and says that in Kirkwall, an unprecendented thing happened in that the populace are either not helping the Templars or directly assisting mages to evade caputre. And that this is severily weakening their efforts.

There are also other hints and pieces. Which say that the mage underground is succesful or hard to defeat because of popular sympathy.

A also don't remember ever seeing the specifics of her blocking elections of a new viscount other than it being indicated that she had discouraged such a thing.

It's said, she blocked the elections and then cracked down on several noble houses who opposed her for usurping power and not allowing a new Viscount to be elected. And like a moron, she also alienates the guards.

Because she is incompetent like that

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 05:02 .

[GavrielKay]

Beerfish wrote...

A also don't remember ever seeing the specifics of her blocking elections of a new viscount other than it being indicated that she had discouraged such a thing.  I also never saw a lot of popular sympathy for the mage underground.  A lot of mage sympathy, some sympathy amongst non mages but nothing that would make me thing people were lining up to help the cause.

She definitely blocks the appointment of another Viscount.  She basically says that she doesn't trust the safety of the city to anyone but herself.  We do get a few quests on the pro-mage side if you go that route.  Some from the nobles and some from a woman in the docks.  There is support for the mages, but it doesn't appear to be a huge movement or anything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
There is support for the mages, but it doesn't appear to be a huge movement or anything.

Could have become one if they had a leader.

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
There is support for the mages, but it doesn't appear to be a huge movement or anything.

Could have become one if they had a leader.

Anders certainly had support among the Ferelden refugees and Darktown residents at the beginning.  That plus the influence of the Champion might have become a noticeable group.  Do you really think they could have done anything against the Chantry though? 

Popular support in Kirkwall was not going to make Meredith or the Chantry hierarchy capitulate in any big way.  Or would you have gone military once the nobles and citizens were behind you?

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
Do you really think they could have done anything against the Chantry though? 

Yes, if one has realistic goals and expectations and is not planning to single handedly bring down a millenia old institution backed by the might of the Orlesian empire.

Popular support in Kirkwall was not going to make Meredith or the Chantry hierarchy capitulate in any big way.  Or would you have gone military once the nobles and citizens were behind you?

Meredith had to be removed by force, of that I have little doubt as the Chantry is not doing its job in regards to oversight. And Elthina's passivity essentially means that the highest represenative of the Chantry is Kirkwall would be neutral and inactive.

A coalition of nobles, common folk, refugees, guards, mages and Templar dissidents would have been enough to oust Meredith by force and establish a new legitimate government in Kirkwall. This unprecedented event would be used as the foundations for gradual reforms, without trying to remove the Chantry and the Templars off the bat. And it would be a strong signal to the Chantry that states will not abide losing their soveregnity, which they implictly supported.

Such an event imo, would be a stronger symbol than a bomb. Less bombastic to be sure (no pun intended), but with more realistic expectations and goals, and with more mass appeal. And certainly much harder to pull off.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 05:13 .

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Such an event imo, would be a stronger symbol than a bomb. Less bombastic to be sure (no pun intended), but with more realistic expectations and goals, and with more mass appeal. And certainly much harder to pull off.

What about the prospect of an exalted march?  The Chantry could view an outside group ousting Meredith as a challenge regardless of it being done as smoothly as possible.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
How do you kick off a revolution under the circumstances as presented?  And do it in such a way that you get more public support rather than less.

Simple, appeal to their self-interest. In the context of Kirkwall, appeal to their hatred of Meredith and stress on the importance of maintaining their sovereignity, which mages can help them accomplish. An overthrowal of Meredith with mages, the populace, nobles and Templar dissidents is a much stronger symbol than a blown up building.

Also, seeing what happened in Act 2, remind them of how crucial the mages were in the war effort against the Qunari.

The general populace do not hate Meredith at all.  I'd say most of the nobles and common folk like her for being hard on mages and even moreso in that whe was right in saying that the people will demand revenge for the chantry being destroyed and she will give it to them.  The biggest factor in who gets the most support in all of this is Hawke.  Beloved Champion, Qunari crusher and hero.  If they managed to get Hawke full on board there might, just might be a chance for support for mages.

....Did you play the same game the rest of us did?  We see firsthand that a lot of the peasants don't like the templars, and by extension Meredith.  Or did you miss the bit after meeting Lirene about Anders, where a group of peasants with murder on their mind confront you about your inquiry, and say "We know what happens to mages in this town.  And it ain't gonna happen to him."  To say nothing of the people we see who dislike the templars because they've lost friends and family to the Rite of Tranquility or some other fate.  And the nobles also don't like Meredith, though their reasons are less to do with mages.

Way to render invisible the people who don't hate mages, either because they believe that the Maker created them for a reason, or have loved ones who are mages.  I can guarantee you that, whatever their numbers may be, there ARE going to be people who either have no opinion of the Chantry's destruction by a mage, or approved of it.  This idea that every person in Kirkwall, down to the last man and woman, will hate Anders for what he did, and mages in general by extension...it's a myth.  They may not be a majority by any stretch, but there WILL be a measureable number of people who weren't appalled by what Anders did.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 mai 2011 - 05:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Such an event imo, would be a stronger symbol than a bomb. Less bombastic to be sure (no pun intended), but with more realistic expectations and goals, and with more mass appeal. And certainly much harder to pull off.

What about the prospect of an exalted march?  The Chantry could view an outside group ousting Meredith as a challenge regardless of it being done as smoothly as possible.

If the Chantry is stupid enough to shoot itself in the foot, then so be it.
But they are only going to accelerate their own collapse.

As the weaker party, you can't dicate how the strong would react, but to be safe, you'd make aggression be as less appealing and unproductive as possible. If the strong still think it's a good idea, then "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" and there is little changing that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 05:22 .