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[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the Chantry is stupid enough to shoot itself in the foot, then so be it.
But they are only going to accelerate their own collapse.

Everyone in DA2 is stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot

As the weaker party, you can't dicate how the strong would react, but to be safe, you'd make aggression be as less appealing and unproductive as possible. If the strong still think it's a good idea, then "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" and there is little changing that.

This scenario might work in Kirkwall where there is enough going on to get even the commoners and nobles involved in backing the mages, but how does it help the rest of the circles?  The Chantry doesn't seem likely to change their ways based on one city/circle going against them.  If they do call an exalted march then it was all for nothing as the other circles aren't likely to follow suit.

Could it be possible that only something as outrageous as what Anders did can get enough of the circles to revolt that something might happen?

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
This scenario might work in Kirkwall where there is enough going on to get even the commoners and nobles involved in backing the mages, but how does it help the rest of the circles? 

Other than Kirkwall being a strategically located commercial hub with obvious commercial influence, such an unprecendeted event of a mass opposition group including mages kicking out a usupring KC is going to have a ripple effect throughout the region.

It's not an event to be underestimated. If succesful reforms are put in place, other polities are more likely to see that the false dichotomy imposed by the Chantry of either this or magocracy is illusionary and that mages can be valuable assets. Furthermore, the secular nobility and political classes, other than those of Orlais, would likely rejoice at such an event or take it into consideration. I dont' think they were at ease with Meredith usurping power. 

The Chantry doesn't seem likely to change their ways based on one city/circle going against them.  If they do call an exalted march then it was all for nothing as the other circles aren't likely to follow suit.

An Exalted March on a legitimate popular Andrastrian government is going to be a huge event and probably anger a lot of people and not only mages. If mages were inspired by a humiliating defeat, think how they would be inspired by Kirkwall and mages fighting side by side, even against unstoppable odds.

Think how non-mages woudl react. In which scenario are they mor likely to sympathise with mages?

Could it be possible that only something as outrageous as what Anders did can get enough of the circles to revolt that something might happen?

The Chantry declaring an Exalted March is even more outrageous. Or a succesful uprising against Meredith, with nobles, the people and Templar dissidents fighting side by side with mages, would be an even greater motivator. For it brings hope and not only to mages.

A bomb doesn't have the same effect.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 05:37 .

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than Kirkwall being a strategically located commercial hub with obvious commercial influence, such an unprecendeted event of a mass opposition group including mages kicking out a usupring KC is going to have a ripple effect throughout the region.

Too bad that's not the game we'll get to play next.  I wonder what they've set us up for.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than Kirkwall being a strategically located commercial hub with obvious commercial influence, such an unprecendeted event of a mass opposition group including mages kicking out a usupring KC is going to have a ripple effect throughout the region.

Too bad that's not the game we'll get to play next.  I wonder what they've set us up for.

General fan consensus seems to be that the setting of the next game will be Orlais--apparently mostly based on Sandal being invited to Orlais by Empress Celene, lol, it's all about Sandal!  If a mage/templar war is the backdrop, that would make sense, given Val Royeaux is the seat of Chantry power, and there's a hint that Orlais may be considering another attack on Ferelden. 

What I wonder is if we're always going to play native Fereldens, irrespective of where the story actually takes place.  Ferelden seems to have been granted the Everyman mantle by the Devs, for some reason.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

General fan consensus seems to be that the setting of the next game will be Orlais--apparently mostly based on Sandal being invited to Orlais by Empress Celene, lol, it's all about Sandal!  If a mage/templar war is the backdrop, that would make sense, given Val Royeaux is the seat of Chantry power, and there's a hint that Orlais may be considering another attack on Ferelden. 

What I wonder is if we're always going to play native Fereldens, irrespective of where the story actually takes place.  Ferelden seems to have been granted the Everyman mantle by the Devs, for some reason.

I guess we'll find out eventually.  I hope they can get back some of the greatness of DAO for the next version.  There were definitely aspects of DA2 that were an improvement, but we lost a lot more than we gained.  Like 60 hours of gameplay <_<

[noxsachi]

GavrielKay wrote...
I guess we'll find out eventually.  I hope they can get back some of the greatness of DAO for the next version.  There were definitely aspects of DA2 that were an improvement, but we lost a lot more than we gained.  Like 60 hours of gameplay <_<

Where do these mysterious hours of gameplay come from? >.> Cause my DAII playthroughs clock in at around 41-42 hours and my longest DAO was 46, and I try and do everything in both games. And in DAO this counts all the DLC. I mean DAII made some huge mistakes (reused enviroments, enemies ninjaing wave after wave, changing mobs from using PC spells to only 3-4 mob spells) and some little ones (mostly related to how companions never changed their sayings as their relationship with Hawke progresses and how they seem to be better friends with each other than you), but the gamelength was very equal to me. I mean if I am missing 60 hours of DAO gameplay, please let me know where to find it, cause I'd love to see what I missed. :x

[GavrielKay]

noxsachi wrote...

Where do these mysterious hours of gameplay come from? >.> Cause my DAII playthroughs clock in at around 41-42 hours and my longest DAO was 46, and I try and do everything in both games.

Wow.  I've heard of other people saying DAO was in the 40 hour range.  I'm just not sure how it works.

My shortest DAO playthroughs were in the 80 hour range.  My longest was 120 hours which was the first one when I let all the dialogue play out and read the codices.  By contrast, my longest DA2 game was 42 hours.

[LobselVith8]

noxsachi wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I guess we'll find out eventually.  I hope they can get back some of the greatness of DAO for the next version.  There were definitely aspects of DA2 that were an improvement, but we lost a lot more than we gained.  Like 60 hours of gameplay <_<

Where do these mysterious hours of gameplay come from? >.> Cause my DAII playthroughs clock in at around 41-42 hours and my longest DAO was 46, and I try and do everything in both games. And in DAO this counts all the DLC. I mean DAII made some huge mistakes (reused enviroments, enemies ninjaing wave after wave, changing mobs from using PC spells to only 3-4 mob spells) and some little ones (mostly related to how companions never changed their sayings as their relationship with Hawke progresses and how they seem to be better friends with each other than you), but the gamelength was very equal to me. I mean if I am missing 60 hours of DAO gameplay, please let me know where to find it, cause I'd love to see what I missed. :x

All the DLC? It takes me 25 hours going through everything in Awakening alone. Also, I notice the "clock" runs for DA2 even when the game isn't active, and the time is cumulative - it adds the same hours of gameplay even if you restart or load an earlier save (at least for the PS3).

[noxsachi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

noxsachi wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I guess we'll find out eventually.  I hope they can get back some of the greatness of DAO for the next version.  There were definitely aspects of DA2 that were an improvement, but we lost a lot more than we gained.  Like 60 hours of gameplay <_<

Where do these mysterious hours of gameplay come from? >.> Cause my DAII playthroughs clock in at around 41-42 hours and my longest DAO was 46, and I try and do everything in both games. And in DAO this counts all the DLC. I mean DAII made some huge mistakes (reused enviroments, enemies ninjaing wave after wave, changing mobs from using PC spells to only 3-4 mob spells) and some little ones (mostly related to how companions never changed their sayings as their relationship with Hawke progresses and how they seem to be better friends with each other than you), but the gamelength was very equal to me. I mean if I am missing 60 hours of DAO gameplay, please let me know where to find it, cause I'd love to see what I missed. :x

All the DLC? It takes me 25 hours going through everything in Awakening alone. Also, I notice the "clock" runs for DA2 even when the game isn't active, and the time is cumulative - it adds the same hours of gameplay even if you restart or load an earlier save (at least for the PS3).

Ah I wasn't including Awakening, so that's an extra 13~ or so hours for me.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
So by principle. That's fine.

Missed that line entirely. Yes. But to be honest, I don't think there's a reason to kill Anders as a templar unless it's by principle. At that point, doing anything with Anders that isn't imprisoning him is on principle, IMO.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

seeking support from the Dalish, Chasind, and possibly Rivain could help. I doubt Tevinter would care.

The Dalish would have to care because if mages won and were granted freedom that would mean they wouldn't have to worry about their Keepers and Firsts being taken away. Though due to the scorn they face they'd still have to move.

The Chasind are skilled warriors and live among mages too.

Rivain as we know has mages who are free and, as far as we can tell, the nation is no worse for wear than Chantry controlled states with Circles.

The Dalish would have to fight the combined might of the Andrastian nations. If Rivan or the Chasind become involved... that a world war, or close enough to it. Orlais, Ferelden... these countries would be forced to choose a side instead of trying to remain neutral (which is apparently what they're doing) because you've suddenly got a plausibly expansionist force invading your borders.

All of this would lead to Exalted Marches.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I really can't see why the Chasind or Rivaini or the Dalish would care about the problems between the Circle Mages and the Templars, at least on a worldwide level. It doesn't concern them. Just because they exist outside of chantry purview doesn't mean they'd have any interest in becoming embattled with the Templars.

Ferelden is a Andrastian nation and in general they seem to enjoy fairly peaceful relations with the Chasind in the present times. Not only that but they strike me as unlikley be be interested in becoming invlovled in a war that takes place largely on the other sides of the known world.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 mai 2011 - 01:29 .

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
What about the prospect of an exalted march?  The Chantry could view an outside group ousting Meredith as a challenge regardless of it being done as smoothly as possible.

Where do the troops come from? If you can convince Sebastian that the cause is just and Meredith is insane, then you have Starkhaven standing by Kirkwall. Ferelden and Orlais are at odds, so Ferelden refusing to send troops (potentially) would even further hamper an Exalted March.

That effectively leads Orlais as the major source, outside of the Anderfells.

At that point, you can use realpolitik and the wealth of Kirkwall to try to swing for a stay. Of course, Orlais might love the opportunity to conquer Kirkwall. But if the changes in Kirkwall work, you could offer Justinia a compromise to undercut the Resolutionists entirely and protect the status quo by reforming the Circles, essentially allowing the Chantry to maintain some of its power.

It's possible. Would the Chantry bite? Who knows. But it's better than going for genocide as your plan A.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
So by principle. That's fine.

Missed that line entirely. Yes. But to be honest, I don't think there's a reason to kill Anders as a templar unless it's by principle. At that point, doing anything with Anders that isn't imprisoning him is on principle, IMO.

It's more expedient. He's an abomination (or potential one). Either devote several Templars to restrain and move him somewhere, which is risky and I am not sure what purpose it would serve. Or just kill him and be done with it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 02:17 .

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's more expedient. He's an abomination (or potential one). Either devote several Templars to restrain and move him somewhere, which is risky and I am not sure what purpose it would serve. Or just kill him and be done with it.

Of course, we could say that's a principle too. It just becomes a logical black hole.

Although you could argue that some Hawke believes Anders to be so unstable by that point that he would be ineffective and hurt morale by his very existence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Or is a wild card that could explode in their face at any moment, yea. Speaking of which, that's more valid for pro-mages. Hmmm.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or is a wild card that could explode in their face at any moment, yea. Speaking of which, that's more valid for pro-mages. Hmmm.

That's who I meant it for. I wasn't clear. Anders is pretty crazy-eye nuts.

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or is a wild card that could explode in their face at any moment, yea. Speaking of which, that's more valid for pro-mages. Hmmm.

That's who I meant it for. I wasn't clear. Anders is pretty crazy-eye nuts.

If we can seperate them (which if we could Connor, I don't see why not Anders) somehow, I think Anders will be alright.  It's just Justice.  He's kind of a douche now.

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...

If we can seperate them (which if we could Connor, I don't see why not Anders) somehow, I think Anders will be alright.  It's just Justice.  He's kind of a douche now.

I'm going to put money on no one really sitting down to work out the details of the mechanism of demonic posession. The idea for Connor was that the demon was still in the Fade somehow.. but what that means and how other abominations are different is never made clear.

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

If we can seperate them (which if we could Connor, I don't see why not Anders) somehow, I think Anders will be alright.  It's just Justice.  He's kind of a douche now.

I'm going to put money on no one really sitting down to work out the details of the mechanism of demonic posession. The idea for Connor was that the demon was still in the Fade somehow.. but what that means and how other abominations are different is never made clear.

I agree.  I recall DG saying that there is rhyme and reason to the way abominations work, but no one has figured it out.  Considering the sheer amount of DA fans, and the fact our number one hobby is coming up with theories that range from incredible (Andraste=Dumat OGB) to ridiculous (most anything involving Sandal or Flemeth), there's no way he could say for sure that no one has figured it out yet... unless there's nothing to figure out because they haven't worked it out themselves.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I really can't see why the Chasind or Rivaini or the Dalish would care about the problems between the Circle Mages and the Templars, at least on a worldwide level. It doesn't concern them. Just because they exist outside of chantry purview doesn't mean they'd have any interest in becoming embattled with the Templars.

Ferelden is a Andrastian nation and in general they seem to enjoy fairly peaceful relations with the Chasind in the present times. Not only that but they strike me as unlikley be be interested in becoming invlovled in a war that takes place largely on the other sides of the known world.

because if the mages won the war, then it would serve the best interests of those 3 peoples' cultures. All of them have free mages. So if the mages gained freedom, this would mean that they wouldn't have to worry about losing anyone (be they mage or non-mage) to the Templars in the effort of defending their culture.

At the very least I can see the Dalish possibly lending support to Ferelden should Orlais invade and you're playing with a Mahariel import where Alistair gave the elven boon. They would see him as a friend to the elves, especially after he vowed to make up for what happened.

[dragonflight288]

...I spend a couple days off the board because of work and we added....several pages. wow.

because if the mages won the war, then it would serve the best interests of those 3 peoples' cultures. All of them have free mages. So if the mages gained freedom, this would mean that they wouldn't have to worry about losing anyone (be they mage or non-mage) to the Templars in the effort of defending their culture.

At the very least I can see the Dalish possibly lending support to Ferelden should Orlais invade and you're playing with a Mahariel import where Alistair gave the elven boon. They would see him as a friend to the elves, especially after he vowed to make up for what happened.

Yes, that would be a likely scenario IF mages win the war.

But if the mages and templars are fighting, the Qunari are planning to attack again, Orlais wants to retake Ferelden, it quickly becomes anyone's game in the Art of War by Sun Tzu (lol).

I mean seriously, Mages and Templar gather for a battle, when a couple miles away, the Qunari have landed and are on the march, all this is happening in Ferelden even as Orlesian forces are marching in, and suddenly we have five armies fighting in the same field. The Battle of Five armies.

That would make for an excellent cinematic.

[Ryzaki]

Only thing that would make that better is if the PC of DA3, the warden and Hawke are all shown collectively facepalming before Sandal comes out of nowhere goes "BOOM!" and everyone on the battlefield (save of course Sandal and our three PCs) are blown to smithereens.

Best ending ever. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mai 2011 - 04:18 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

...I spend a couple days off the board because of work and we added....several pages. wow.

because if the mages won the war, then it would serve the best interests of those 3 peoples' cultures. All of them have free mages. So if the mages gained freedom, this would mean that they wouldn't have to worry about losing anyone (be they mage or non-mage) to the Templars in the effort of defending their culture.

At the very least I can see the Dalish possibly lending support to Ferelden should Orlais invade and you're playing with a Mahariel import where Alistair gave the elven boon. They would see him as a friend to the elves, especially after he vowed to make up for what happened.

Yes, that would be a likely scenario IF mages win the war.

But if the mages and templars are fighting, the Qunari are planning to attack again, Orlais wants to retake Ferelden, it quickly becomes anyone's game in the Art of War by Sun Tzu (lol).

I mean seriously, Mages and Templar gather for a battle, when a couple miles away, the Qunari have landed and are on the march, all this is happening in Ferelden even as Orlesian forces are marching in, and suddenly we have five armies fighting in the same field. The Battle of Five armies.

That would make for an excellent cinematic.

That would be amazing if it was done right. Anyway...

If the Qunari invade then the mages win their own war for freedom because they are needed. And considering the Qunari could take Tevinter if they wanted to but choose not to, Thedosians are in no place to try and weasel their way out of it.

If Sten becomes the new Arishok (which I believe will happen), then things are going to get out of hand. He's seen a lot about Ferelden so he has an edge. And if the Warden appears on the battlefied to fight the new Arishok, I will cry. I do not want to kill Sten but neither do I want my Warden to die.

now, if the Qunari decide not to invade (unlikely), then those groups I mentioned should ally themselves with the mages so they can help them win.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If the Qunari invade then the mages win their own war for freedom because they are needed. And considering the Qunari could take Tevinter if they wanted to but choose not to, Thedosians are in no place to try and weasel their way out of it.

Just because Fenris says it doesn't make it true.  He also called Bethany a viper in my midst.