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[TEWR]

Wait.... does Anders do something to Leliana? I don't remember if I ever brought him there.

[LobselVith8]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

None of my primary PCs are mages, but what they all are is Not Chantry. The Dalish have free mages and they seem to do pretty well; in fact they seem to have far fewer abominations and demon summonings and blood pacts. There is Merril, yes, but she's the exception that proves the rule - only the truly desperate turn to Blood Magic, and the more desperate you get the more likely you are to fall. So making mages desperate and depressed and full of self loathing is, as a rule, not the best plan.

Blood magic isn't evil, we know from Duncan that some Grey Wardens use it to give them an edge against the darkspawn, and it's likely escaped Circle mages turn to it because templars can nullify Circle-sanctioned magic. Merrill only learned it because she didn't have the sufficient amount of lyrium required to cleanse the corrupted shard without resorting to a powerful school of magic, and she handles blood magic proficiently for seven years without becoming a villain.

In addition to the Dalish, there are also free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Not everyone shares the Chantry point of view on magic and mages.

Nameless2345 wrote...

Status-quo sounds like a better way, actually. It is not just, but life never is. Gradual evolution of society and morals can bring fruits. Revolutions tend to bring indiscriminate death. 

If that was true, then why is Cassandra trying to get a pro-mage Hawke to negoate peace with the mages. If victory was so certain for the templars, why would a Seeker be attempting to prevent a war with the same group that Brother Gentivi notes was "the greatest advantage" in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari forces?

[TEWR]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wait.... does Anders do something to Leliana? I don't remember if I ever brought him there.

*lesbian Surana cracks knuckles*

at first I was like because I only read your comment, but then I was like and after rereading mine and yours.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wait.... does Anders do something to Leliana? I don't remember if I ever brought him there.

Anders points out that mages don't need the Resolutionists to want freedom from the Chantry, and doesn't seem to like her or what she's saying.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nameless2345 wrote...

Status-quo sounds like a better way, actually. It is not just, but life never is. Gradual evolution of society and morals can bring fruits. Revolutions tend to bring indiscriminate death. 

If that was true, then why is Cassandra trying to get a pro-mage Hawke to negoate peace with the mages. If victory was so certain for the templars, why would a Seeker be attempting to prevent a war with the same group that Brother Gentivi notes was "the greatest advantage" in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari forces?

Because the war cost the life of civilians? The mages as they are don't stand many chances against a prepared Templar force, unless they resort to blood magic, so if the mages retain a moral center based on Chantry teaching during the war, they will probably get their asses handed to them. If they do resort to blood magic, the Templars will use that as proof that mages can't be trusted, and convince the commoners to side with them against the mages, and hand their asses to them.
The Seekers (and the Chantry) are trying to prevent the war, because they don't want it to destabilize all of Thedas, especially not with the Qunari potentially invading soon.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

In response to some of KoP's linequotey posts

I thought that by Act 3 the mage underground had been pretty crushed, and Meredith had already sent to the Divine for the Right of Annulment, with no indication that the Divine is likely to refuse it. Ugh, the Divine could fix all this so easily! Leliana's appearance made me even more convinced that the Chantry cannot stand as it is. "Hey, an event that is likely to unbalance all of Thedas! Let's watch and not do any of the SEVERAL BILLION things we could do to prevent it."

I'm not going to claim that Justice is the best advisor when trying to figure out mortal affairs, because he is way too concerned with justice. You could almost say he's all about it. But sometimes you just have to stop compromising. And sure, Anders could have someday found someone more capable of furthering his cause, but Justice wouldn't let him wait. I think it's a bloody miracle that he tried peaceful methods for as long as he did. Justice removes the ability to just ignore the horrible stuff and bide your time. Which is a bad idea for the human he's riding, but is probably ultimately good for that person's cause, I think.

So yeah, Anders acted alone, took initiative where he had no right to, and (often?) was martyred for it. Not smart, but bold and noble.

To paraphrase a quote....

"When did you ever see a [mage] fight back?... Now, times were a-changin'. Tuesday night was the last night for bull****.... Predominantly, the theme (w)as, "this s*** has got to stop!""

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If that was true, then why is Cassandra trying to get a pro-mage Hawke to negoate peace with the mages. If victory was so certain for the templars, why would a Seeker be attempting to prevent a war with the same group that Brother Gentivi notes was "the greatest advantage" in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari forces?

Because the war cost the life of civilians? The mages as they are don't stand many chances against a prepared Templar force, unless they resort to blood magic, so if the mages retain a moral center based on Chantry teaching during the war, they will probably get their asses handed to them. If they do resort to blood magic, the Templars will use that as proof that mages can't be trusted, and convince the commoners to side with them against the mages, and hand their asses to them.

They dont stand a chance? In your opinion, you mean, because they were capable of freeing themselves from Chantry and templar control in the first place. You're welcome to provide your opinion on the issue, but there's no factual basis to say the mages will lose. None at all.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Seekers (and the Chantry) are trying to prevent the war, because they don't want it to destabilize all of Thedas, especially not with the Qunari potentially invading soon.

In your opinion, because there are no facts to back up this claim.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Divine could have solved the situation how? The mages of Kirkwall was unruly long before Meredith was ever knight-commander. Removing her, had not neccesarily solved anything. Unless you replaced her with an equally stern Knight-Commander. If she had been replaced by a weak Templar, like Thrask, which would let mages walk all over him, she could possibly had made the situation even worse, in the long term.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Divine could have solved the situation how?

By removing the Knight-Commander who was causing unrest among the civilians, the nobles, the mages, and even the templars.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The mages of Kirkwall was unruly long before Meredith was ever knight-commander. Removing her, had not neccesarily solved anything. Unless you replaced her with an equally stern Knight-Commander. If she had been replaced by a weak Templar, like Thrask, which would let mages walk all over him, she could possibly had made the situation even worse, in the long term.

Why was Thrask weak, because he didn't want to murder mages simply for being mages? He managed to get a coalition of mages and templars under his command, he was proactive, while Hawke simply fulfills the role that's demanded of him.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yeah Thrask was cool.

Til he got murdered by an abomination that is....

[Ryzaki]

I hope in DA3 we can choose to help the mages or the Chantry.

I so want to be the taking a hard stance against bloodmages Seeker.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry isn't fighting mages directly, so far as I know. That would be the templars.

[Ryzaki]

Well the templars then.

[Xilizhra]

It's an option that'd fit better in DA3 than in DA2, at any rate.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Divine could have solved the situation how? The mages of Kirkwall was unruly long before Meredith was ever knight-commander. Removing her, had not neccesarily solved anything. Unless you replaced her with an equally stern Knight-Commander. If she had been replaced by a weak Templar, like Thrask, which would let mages walk all over him, she could possibly had made the situation even worse, in the long term.

You have no proof that the reason why Kirkwall was the worst Circle prior to Meredith was due to the mages.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why was Thrask weak, because he didn't want to murder mages simply for being mages? He managed to get a coalition of mages and templars under his command, he was proactive, while Hawke simply fulfills the role that's demanded of him.

Anaan Esaam Qun

[TEWR]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why was Thrask weak, because he didn't want to murder mages simply for being mages? He managed to get a coalition of mages and templars under his command, he was proactive, while Hawke simply fulfills the role that's demanded of him.

Anaan Esaam Qun

Victory lies within the Qun?

exactly. Hawke's fulfilling the role he was given, the one that's demanded of him. He is fulfilling the demands of the Qun and victory lies within the Qun.

[Xilizhra]

So Hawke is, in fact, a devout qunari. As is pretty much everyone else in this game.

Conclusion: DA2 is a qunari recruitment tool, or a Tal-Vashoth propaganda piece.

[Xilizhra]

I thought it was a joke about how everyone is shoehorned into an unchangeable role. Or at least Hawke is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I thought that by Act 3 the mage underground had been pretty crushed,

That only makes it even more dangerous, if you press the right buttons.
Meredith's heavyhandedness are a sign of incompetence, not strength.

and Meredith had already sent to the Divine for the Right of Annulment, with no indication that the Divine is likely to refuse it.

Yes, and imagine if all of Kirkwall stood up and said "no".
The Divine would have to be pretty stupid to get through with it.

Ugh, the Divine could fix all this so easily!

Agreed and that is also why I've  been arguing that the Chantry is now a defunct institution.
Anders was the catalyst, but the problems go way beyond him for sure.

I'm not going to claim that Justice is the best advisor when trying to figure out mortal affairs, because he is way too concerned with justice. You could almost say he's all about it. But sometimes you just have to stop compromising.

When you have some semblance of power to impose yourself. Some organization and some plans. I am not sure the mages are ready for this. They need leadership. And I've argued outside leadership.

For me, the mage question is but one facet of a larger issue and it cannot stand as an isolated agenda, it's not going to attract that many people. Also why I feel Anders is way too single minded to understand what is needed.

And sure, Anders could have someday found someone more capable of furthering his cause, but Justice wouldn't let him wait.

I do not pretend that there is no tragedy in Anders and like I said, I still consider him one of my favorite DA2 characters and the only redeeming thing about Act 3.

So yeah, Anders acted alone, took initiative where he had no right to, and (often?) was martyred for it. Not smart, but bold and noble.

For me it's reckless and foolish, but perception percepetion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mai 2011 - 09:54 .