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[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHy the feck should Meredith wait with teh Annulment? If she was going to wait for the Divine's approval, the situation could have gone from bad, to total ****storm. Meredith had the authority to call it, she did, and would then have to make her case to the Divine afterwards.
Time is not really a luxury the Templars have when it comes to annulment.

On a side note: Mages AREN'T people like you and me. So how is Cullen wrong?

So you don't think mages should be treated like people either?  I'll give you full marks for consistancy if nothing else.

Why?  There wasn't a citywide emergency UNTIL Meredith declared war on all mages.  There was a terrorist act and associated mayhem with that, but the guilty party was already in custody and already confessed.

Until Meredith declares a Right of Annulment on her own authority, there simply wasn't an emergency situation!  Given that fact, the prudent thing to do would be to stabiize the situation and ask for advice from up the chain of command.

Meredith didn't do it because she wanted all mages dead and wasn't sure (and with good reason) the Divine would go along with that.

-Polaris

I think mages should be treated as mages. To think they are just like anyone else is naïve.

The Chantry had just been blown to pieces. I'm sorry, but there was an emergency in Kirkwall. Anders was the guilty party, indeed, but giving him to the mob, would probably not appease their thirst for vengeance. The common man would see the bomb as an act of mages, and their anger would be directed at mages. The place with the most mages they all know of, is the Gallows, the mobs' anger would be direced that way, Anders' death or not. Meredith concluded the only way to stabilize the situation without harming the people of Kirkwall, was to Annul the Circle. Of course a lot of stuff factored in to make that plan run its course less than smoothly.

Bull**** meredith has the most powerful templar force in the free marches under her command. if the people would call for blood she could have easily said no and no one but a few fanatics would be stupid enough to cross her. also the mages are the people of kirkwall if you havent noticed and its the duty of the templars to protect the,

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even the codex states the main reason for the Circles' creation as the threat of demons. The Templars are there to protect the common man, that is their only task. While the Chantry may use Templars for ulterior motives, the Templars have none of those.

Actually, Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established the Chantry of Andraste, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi because he was a member of a particular Cult of Andraste (History of the Chantry: Chapter 4). During the time of Divine Ambrosia II, the mages were imprisoned because they held a nonviolent protest against their lack of rights (History of the Circle). In fact, Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March against the mages who barricaded themselves in her cathedral because they were protesting their lack of rights, and this lead to the modern day imprisonment in Circle Towers.

You are referencing the wrong entry. There is an entry in DA2, which name's elude me, which further elaborates on the Circles' founding. It goes so far to directly state the most important drive for the Circles' founding was the threat of Abominations.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are referencing the wrong entry.

I don't believe I am. Of the two codex entries that explain the foundation of the Circle of Magi and why mages are imprisoned in modern day Thedas, we have the fact that the founder of the Orlesian Emperor was the member of a cult of Andraste and proceeded to build a formal religion around his religious views, as well as the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi. Furthermore, we have the historical account of why mages are imprisoned in Circle Towers - they protested in a nonviolent fashion. Narrowly avoiding an Exalted March, they were imprisoned for the rest of their lives instead.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are referencing the wrong entry.

I don't believe I am. Of the two codex entries that explain the foundation of the Circle of Magi and why mages are imprisoned in modern day Thedas, we have the fact that the founder of the Orlesian Emperor was the member of a cult of Andraste and proceeded to build a formal religion around his religious views, as well as the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi. Furthermore, we have the historical account of why mages are imprisoned in Circle Towers - they protested in a nonviolent fashion. Narrowly avoiding an Exalted March, they were imprisoned for the rest of their lives instead.

Lob, the codex entry says they went willingly.

[LobselVith8]

It's written by a Chantry scholar, TJPags, and Gaider has made note that the codex entries are all biased.

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Lob, the codex entry says they went willingly.

I'll admit to not loading up the game to read the codex entries...  but "willingly" doesn't mean much when someone is threatened with death...

[TJPags]

I know who it was written by. And I know Gaider said they were not always accurate (not biased, simply not always accurate, is my recollection).

My point is, you can't quote it for truth and then deny the part you don't like. We either have to argue that it's all true - which DG has said is not the case - or accept that we don't know whats true, and disregard them.

You can't have it both ways.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's written by a Chantry scholar, TJPags, and Gaider has made note that the codex entries are all biased.

Given the option between being sent into exile or being impaled by swords (like Divine Ambrosia II WANTED to do), I'd go cheerfully into exile too.  Context is everything.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

I know who it was written by. And I know Gaider said they were not always accurate (not biased, simply not always accurate, is my recollection).

My point is, you can't quote it for truth and then deny the part you don't like. We either have to argue that it's all true - which DG has said is not the case - or accept that we don't know whats true, and disregard them.

You can't have it both ways.

He's not.  He's pointing out CONTEXT.  Given that the other chocie was a painful death, I'd go willingly into exile too.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Lob, the codex entry says they went willingly.

I'll admit to not loading up the game to read the codex entries...  but "willingly" doesn't mean much when someone is threatened with death...

Gavriel, the codex doesn't anywhere say they were threatened, with death or anything else.  It says the mages accepted going to the towers as a resolution after negotiations which were shouted through a window.

[LobselVith8]

It's an account of events from the Chantry perspective, TJPags. I don't expect the Chantry perspective to be unbiased against the actual attitudes of mages who were placed into prison when they had been protesting their lack of rights. Given that it's written from the Chantry perspective and describes how mages were imprisoned because of a nonviolent protest, which is why mages in modern day Thedas are forced to live in Circle Towers, I find it revealing.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...
Gavriel, the codex doesn't anywhere say they were threatened, with death or anything else.  It says the mages accepted going to the towers as a resolution after negotiations which were shouted through a window.

Yes it does admittedly indirectly but it does (and remember this was written from the PoV of the Chantry).  The scholar specifically notes that Ambrosia wanted an exalted march (read slaughter all mages) on the mage protesters (who were completly non-violent) and even her TEMPLARS tried to talk her out of it.

Given that fact, the choice did seem to be exile or death.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's an account of events from the Chantry perspective, TJPags. I don't expect the Chantry perspective to be unbiased against the actual attitudes of mages who were placed into prison when they had been protesting their lack of rights. Given that it's written from the Chantry perspective and describes how mages were imprisoned because of a nonviolent protest, which is why mages in modern day Thedas are forced to live in Circle Towers, I find it revealing.

Well, we'll have to add this to the "agree to disagree" list, Lob.

I accept that it's wrriten from a Chantry perspective, but it kind of paints the Divine in a poor light, saying she needed to be talked out of an Exalted March.  Basically, the mages had her by the short hairs, and she wasn't doing much about it, since even her own people were disagreeing with her.  Makes her look kind of like Meredith, IMO (not as bad, but similar). 

If you don't think the mages went willingly, what is it you think they were asking for?  Cookies after meals?

If you can give me an answer to that question (not the cookie part  ) I may revise my opinion.  But honestly, I really think we have to toss almost every codex entry - certainly most of the historical ones - out the window completely, given that they're unreliable (per DG) and we don't know what part is the unreliable part.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since even the Templars tried to talk the Divine out of the Exalted March, it doens't seem like death was a looming threat on the mages, at all actually. If even a Templar question the orders of a Divine, chances are they aren't going to get carried out.

I'd also like to point out, that not only does the entry say they went into exile willingly, but also that they did so cheerily.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 04 mai 2011 - 09:52 .

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

If you don't think the mages went willingly, what is it you think they were asking for?  Cookies after meals?

Unless the mages had been converted to some form of Andrate-ism themselves it's hard to imagine they were eager to sign up for a life of confinement for themselves and all mages to follow them in history.  And even if they did somehow do so, it doesn't mean that it was ever an objectively good thing or is still a good thing.

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

If you don't think the mages went willingly, what is it you think they were asking for?  Cookies after meals?

Unless the mages had been converted to some form of Andrate-ism themselves it's hard to imagine they were eager to sign up for a life of confinement for themselves and all mages to follow them in history.  And even if they did somehow do so, it doesn't mean that it was ever an objectively good thing or is still a good thing.

Andraste-ism, as you call it, is a religion.  We do see some mages that seem somewhat devout, you know - see, Wynne, Bethany, as two examples.  Not hard to believe there were or are others who also believe.
 
That said, I'll ask again - what do you think they wanted?  What were they asking for, if your so against the concept that they agreed to the entire Circle structure?

[TEWR]

History is written by the victors

[EmperorSahlertz]

" Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi."

And there you have it. Not only does it state the driving force behind the creation of the Circle was Abominations. It also states that Abominations are extremely dangerous (which I know some have sown doubt about).

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

" Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi."

And there you have it. Not only does it state the driving force behind the creation of the Circle was Abominations. It also states that Abominations are extremely dangerous (which I know some have sown doubt about).

Source?  I am willing to bet that was written by a templar.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Abomination entry of DA2. It is the part of the entry which isn't written by a Templar, but is in the WoG.

[soulrapist]

IT comes down to 1 things being responsable for power you hold but that is not the option in the game they prefer to blame others for the mistake they do instead of taking full responsability for it.

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Andraste-ism, as you call it, is a religion.  We do see some mages that seem somewhat devout, you know - see, Wynne, Bethany, as two examples.  Not hard to believe there were or are others who also believe.
 
That said, I'll ask again - what do you think they wanted?  What were they asking for, if your so against the concept that they agreed to the entire Circle structure?

Oh yes, there are several Andrastian mages that we encounter in the original and sequel - no doubt about it.  Also I think we hear about a few who commit suicide over their guilt and situation.

As to what they wanted - you'd have to give me more back story.  I'm at work and haven't been able to read the codex entries that you seem to be referring to.  If we are talking about the time after the war when Andraste defeated most of the Imperium and the mages that were left were feared, reviled and considered cursed by the new religion springing up around them...  if it were me I'd want to be left alone to recover what dignity I had and live a quiet life where no one wanted to kill me.  It's possible that in the face of that attitude towards them, they felt that appearing to willingly go into bondage was preferable to wondering when their neighbors were going to sneak in and muder them in their sleep.

Lots of things are different in places where hatred and fear are systematic and institutionalized.  The mages we see are either in bondage or trying hard to stay out of it.  In my opinion, being constantly hunted and hated explains quite a few of the abominations we see running around Kirkwall.  Can I get you to admit that in the face of nightly rapes by your so called guards, blood magic stops seeming so terribly evil?  When complaining about such treatment gets you rendered Tranquil, dealing with demons becomes a viable option?  When the very people who are supposedly defining what's good and evil are the ones tormenting you, the lines surely can blur.

Seriously, nothing about the mage situation in Kirkwall is presented in a way that you should wonder why they are going bonkers at every turn.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 04 mai 2011 - 11:18 .

[TJPags]

Gavriel - Here is the entry, in its entirety:


Codex text
It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do something. Unfortunately, the Chantry of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.

I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.

It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux, in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth from the loft.

The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.
--From [/i]Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.[/i]

Here's how that reads to me:

Mages were not hunted.  They were not locked up.  There was simply a restriction on what they could do with their magic.

Tey didn't like that.  So they staged a protest.  I concede it was a peaceful one, from what that entry says.  The Divine was enraged - probably moreso at the snuffing of the Sacred Flame than anything else - and wanted to declare an Exalted March.  She was talked out of it - by even her most devout Templars - the guys we're always told are so awful to mages.

After 21 days of negotiations, an agreement was reached that the mages would go live in Circles, guarded by Templars, where they could practice their magic as they wished.

Now, to respond to your questions:

Can I get you to admit that in the face of nightly rapes by your so called guards, blood magic stops seeming so terribly evil?  When complaining about such treatment gets you rendered Tranquil, dealing with demons becomes a viable option?  When the very people who are supposedly defining what's good and evil are the ones tormenting you, the lines surely can blur.

Yes, of course those actions would enrage me.  Would they make me turn to blood magic?  No, not necessarily.  I'd point out that any mage who's first reaction to such a situation is to make a deal with a demon, rather than at least ATTEMPT to go to the authorities - the First Enchanter, Templar officers, etc - is a mage I'd consider at risk anyway.

Seriously, nothing about the mage situation in Kirkwall is presented in a way that you should wonder why they are going bonkers at every turn.

Actually, I do wonder.  I see it as a chicken-egg thing. 

People blame Meredith's crackdowns for the mages going bonkers.  But which came first - mages escaping and otherwise breaking the law, or her crackdowns?  Why would she need to crack down if nothing was being done wrong?

Kirkwall is built on a hellmouth, which makes the mages go crazy.  Well, first, it was mages who made it that way.  Second, people insist that most mages are innocent and have not gone crazy.  Well, why not, if the hellmouth makes all the mages go crazy?

There are weak-willed mages.  Can you agree on that?  There are mages who are troublemakers.  Can you agree on that?  An inordinant number seem to be in Kirkwall.

[IanPolaris]

TJPages.,

"Mages" didn't make Kirkwall into a Hellmouth, TEVINTER did that. Please stop blaming all mages for the crimes of a nation long gone (same goes for the Chantry).

-Polaris

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPages.,

"Mages" didn't make Kirkwall into a Hellmouth, TEVINTER did that. Please stop blaming all mages for the crimes of a nation long gone (same goes for the Chantry).

-Polaris

Ian -

Tevinter MAGES did that.  Please stop pretending mages never did anything bad.

TJ