4350 réponses à ce sujet

[OldMan91]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPages.,

"Mages" didn't make Kirkwall into a Hellmouth, TEVINTER did that. Please stop blaming all mages for the crimes of a nation long gone (same goes for the Chantry).

-Polaris

Ian -

Tevinter MAGES did that.  Please stop pretending mages never did anything bad.

TJ

Tevinter MAGISTERS did that. Please stop pretending that all mages participated in such acts.

[TJPags]

OldMan91 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPages.,

"Mages" didn't make Kirkwall into a Hellmouth, TEVINTER did that. Please stop blaming all mages for the crimes of a nation long gone (same goes for the Chantry).

-Polaris

Ian -

Tevinter MAGES did that.  Please stop pretending mages never did anything bad.

TJ

Tevinter MAGISTERS did that. Please stop pretending that all mages participated in such acts.

Magisters ARE mages.  Please stop excusing every bad thing a mage ever did.

[soulrapist]

the real thing is who is truly responsable the magistrate who let is crazy son kill elf? the vicount who dont even go see is own son in qunari compound because of what nobility will say? or even isabella who could do something to prevent a war with qunari? or the first orsino who should have work with meridith right from the start by helping her catch blood mage? or anders who on the name of fredom destroy the chantry? or maybe the grand cleric for not doing anything and say the maker will step in?and so on.......

[Xilizhra]

His point is that, yes, some mages did it. That doesn't mean that "mages" as a whole did.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Abomination entry of DA2. It is the part of the entry which isn't written by a Templar, but is in the WoG.

You mean the heresay section of the Abomination codex that addresses what's said among the people?

[soulrapist]

i truly wounder if its not varric fault because you cant skip the rumors he give you to go in the deep roads???

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Gavriel - Here is the entry, in its entirety:

...

...  I'd point out that any mage who's first reaction to such a situation is to make a deal with a demon, rather than at least ATTEMPT to go to the authorities - the First Enchanter, Templar officers, etc - is a mage I'd consider at risk anyway.

Actually, I do wonder.  I see it as a chicken-egg thing. 

People blame Meredith's crackdowns for the mages going bonkers.  But which came first - mages escaping and otherwise breaking the law, or her crackdowns?  Why would she need to crack down if nothing was being done wrong?

Kirkwall is built on a hellmouth, which makes the mages go crazy.  Well, first, it was mages who made it that way.  Second, people insist that most mages are innocent and have not gone crazy.  Well, why not, if the hellmouth makes all the mages go crazy?

There are weak-willed mages.  Can you agree on that?  There are mages who are troublemakers.  Can you agree on that?  An inordinant number seem to be in Kirkwall.

Thanks for the entry, that helps.

We don't know that hundreds of mages haven't gone to Meredith, Orsino, even the Grand Cleric to complain.  We are told that Karl gets rendered Tranquil for being too "rebelious."  It seems to be pretty easy for Hawke to find out that the abuse is going on, so anyone who really cared would know and apparently hasn't been fixing anything.  That's why "institutionalized" hatred is so bad.  With Templars like Cullen believing mages aren't deserving of being treated like people, where exactly do you go for help when you're being raped?

Before you can justify Meredith cracking down on the mages because they were trying to escape you'd have to justify keeping them prisoner in the first place, which I don't.  However I'll concede that we don't actually know which did happen first.  She's presented as a bit of a zealot however and I don't put it out of the realm of possibility that she just didn't like the mages attitude or something.

Yes, it was Tevinter mages who purposefully thinned Veil in Kirkwall.  I don't hold the current imprisoned mages responsible for that though.  And whoever decided that Kirkwall was a great place to house all the mages of the Free Marches should be resurrected and killed again.

Not all mages go crazy because there are always some folks who are stronger and some who are weaker.  Let's say the weak Veil strengthens the demons ability to attack the mages' minds and raises but doesn't eliminate the threshold for their ability to resist?

So, according to that codex, the mages willingly sequestered themselves so they could practice magic as they liked in a secure environment.  I can just about envision that seeming like a good idea to mages who'd been relegated to dusting and keeping fires burning.  I hope they weren't short sighted enough to knowingly agree to 1000 years worth of kidnapped children, beaten and raped mages and occasional Rights of Annulment thrown in for fun.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

His point is that, yes, some mages did it. That doesn't mean that "mages" as a whole did.

I'm sorry - I originally said "it was mages who made it that way".  Which is absolutely accurate.

Does that mean all mages?  Of course not.  Especially since those who did it are long dead.

But it sure does mean SOME mages.

Ian claimed it was Tevinter - and told me not to blame mages.  Tevinter is a nation.  People did it.  People who were mages.  So it's fair to say mages did it.

Old man wanted to correct that to Magisters.  As if they're not mages.  So I just pointed that out.

Nothing I said was inaccurate, and nothing I said was skewed.

Mages made the hellmouth.  Fact.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi."

And there you have it. Not only does it state the driving force behind the creation of the Circle was Abominations. It also states that Abominations are extremely dangerous (which I know some have sown doubt about).

This isn't WoG, what you left out was that this particular entry begins with the words "It is known" which means it's what's said among the people of Ferelden, not that it's WoG. The driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi was the first Emperor of Orlais, Emperor Drakon I, who established the Circle of Magi, the Chantry of Andraste, and the Order of Templars on the basis of his religious leanings as a member of a particular cult of Andraste, which is explicitly stated in the codex entries "History of the Chantry: Chapter 4" and "History of the Circle," both of which are written by Chantry scholars who have every reason to be biased in favor of the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

[Xilizhra]

Mages made the hellmouth. Fact.

So some mages once did a bad thing. What's your point?

[OldMan91]

Old man wanted to correct that to Magisters. As if they're not mages. So I just pointed that out.

Sure, if you want to simplistically put it that way in order to prove some point about how terrible or dangerous mages are. I correct it to magisters because the problem of Tevinter is not that the rulers are mages. It's that there's a small wealthy noble elite or ruling class who happen to be mages.

Modifié par OldMan91, 05 mai 2011 - 12:27 .

[88mphSlayer]

meredith is the only political person in Kirkwall with any kind of accountability... Orsino can jump up and down shouting for revolution all day, nobody expects him to fix a damn thing... all the chantry does is just show up whenever it's convenient, hand wave something and otherwise give meaningless blessings... the viscount was always a pushover, and the champion is only ever in the thick of it when it's convenient, doing jack-all for stretches up to 3 years at a time

really the best possible solution to kirkwall's problems probably would've been to let the Qunari run everything

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 05 mai 2011 - 12:38 .

[Xilizhra]

Alas, they're rather too killy in their methods. Rather like the templars.

[GavrielKay]

TJ: There's a larger question here that we seem to be coming down on opposite sides of:

Is it right to keep the mages prisoner because it makes the rest of the population feel safer?

I'm talking about actual prisoners like in the circle. Being taken away from their parents at whatever age their power first manifests and never being allowed to leave again except with express permission from above (like Wynne gets in DAO). And I'm not talking about legality since we know that's separate from morality.

Does the perceived safety of the rest of the nation outweigh the human rights of the mages by so much that they should be kept prisoner. Not just trained, or mentored, or have special enforcers to go after actively evil mages - but imprisoned with no regard to any act they have or haven't committed.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's an account of events from the Chantry perspective, TJPags. I don't expect the Chantry perspective to be unbiased against the actual attitudes of mages who were placed into prison when they had been protesting their lack of rights. Given that it's written from the Chantry perspective and describes how mages were imprisoned because of a nonviolent protest, which is why mages in modern day Thedas are forced to live in Circle Towers, I find it revealing.

Well, we'll have to add this to the "agree to disagree" list, Lob.

I accept that it's wrriten from a Chantry perspective, but it kind of paints the Divine in a poor light, saying she needed to be talked out of an Exalted March.  Basically, the mages had her by the short hairs, and she wasn't doing much about it, since even her own people were disagreeing with her.  Makes her look kind of like Meredith, IMO (not as bad, but similar). 

If you don't think the mages went willingly, what is it you think they were asking for?  Cookies after meals?

If you can give me an answer to that question (not the cookie part  ) I may revise my opinion.  But honestly, I really think we have to toss almost every codex entry - certainly most of the historical ones - out the window completely, given that they're unreliable (per DG) and we don't know what part is the unreliable part.

I think the mages wanted equality - just as Parthalan did when he helped King Calenhad form Ferelden from warring teyrnirs, only to abandon the nation he helped forge because the Chantry hunted him down.

Also, I give credit to the templars for stopping Divine Ambrosia II from murdering peaceful protesters. I don't think all templars are bad - we see plenty of good templars in Origins to demonstrate that fact - Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, and Knight-Commander Greagoir. However, I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the correct path for mages. Having a religious organization control the lives of mages when they preach that mages are responsible for destroying the Golden City and refer to mages as cursed (which even Meredith and Bethany bring up since they are both Andrastians) is a recipe for disaster.

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Gavriel - Here is the entry, in its entirety:

...

...  I'd point out that any mage who's first reaction to such a situation is to make a deal with a demon, rather than at least ATTEMPT to go to the authorities - the First Enchanter, Templar officers, etc - is a mage I'd consider at risk anyway.

Actually, I do wonder.  I see it as a chicken-egg thing. 

People blame Meredith's crackdowns for the mages going bonkers.  But which came first - mages escaping and otherwise breaking the law, or her crackdowns?  Why would she need to crack down if nothing was being done wrong?

Kirkwall is built on a hellmouth, which makes the mages go crazy.  Well, first, it was mages who made it that way.  Second, people insist that most mages are innocent and have not gone crazy.  Well, why not, if the hellmouth makes all the mages go crazy?

There are weak-willed mages.  Can you agree on that?  There are mages who are troublemakers.  Can you agree on that?  An inordinant number seem to be in Kirkwall.

Thanks for the entry, that helps.

Not a problem.  I'm normally lazy, but I try to help when I can. 

GavrielKay wrote...
We don't know that hundreds of mages haven't gone to Meredith, Orsino, even the Grand Cleric to complain.  We are told that Karl gets rendered Tranquil for being too "rebelious."  It seems to be pretty easy for Hawke to find out that the abuse is going on, so anyone who really cared would know and apparently hasn't been fixing anything.  That's why "institutionalized" hatred is so bad.  With Templars like Cullen believing mages aren't deserving of being treated like people, where exactly do you go for help when you're being raped?

No, we don't know how many tried to say something.  It's valid to assume many did, and got nowhere.  It's valid to assume a few did, and went to the wrong people.  It's valid (although perhaps shortsighted) to assume none said anything.  But that's what happens when we get no information to work with - we have to speculate.  And it's fine to do that, for each of us, in our own game.  But it's important to remember that other people may come up with a different speculation, and it's fine for them to do that.

And spot on about institutionalized hate.  As a proviso, I don't hate "mages".  I think certain mages are criminals.  I don't love "Templars".  I think some are good people doing a difficult job.  We should all keep that in mind.

GavrielKay wrote...
Before you can justify Meredith cracking down on the mages because they were trying to escape you'd have to justify keeping them prisoner in the first place, which I don't.  However I'll concede that we don't actually know which did happen first.  She's presented as a bit of a zealot however and I don't put it out of the realm of possibility that she just didn't like the mages attitude or something.

 

See, I'm okay with mages being kept in towers.  The KIrkwall Circle has a myriad of problems.  But the system isn't wrong, IMO.  That Circle is bad.  Clearly, the Ferelden Circle is much better.  We don't know which is more indicative of "normal" conditions, and any person can choose to think either one is or something in the middle.  But I think the system is fine.  I wouldn't advocate closing all prisons because of one that's run as poorly as the Kirkwall Circle is.  I don't advocate eliminating Circles completely because of Kirkwall, either.

And yes, Meredith may not have been suited for the job in the first place.  I concede that.  But she does have to justify her actions at some point, and so I believe there has to be SOME justification.

GavrielKay wrote...
Yes, it was Tevinter mages who purposefully thinned Veil in Kirkwall.  I don't hold the current imprisoned mages responsible for that though.  And whoever decided that Kirkwall was a great place to house all the mages of the Free Marches should be resurrected and killed again.

I don't hold the mages there now responsible either.  But I think it's valid to say that it is a result that can happen when mages are left unchecked to do whatever they wish.  Power doesn't always bring wisdom, neither does skill.

And I also think whoever decided to put a Circle there was either an idiot, or didn't do their homework - which is sometimes the same thing.

GavrielKay wrote...
Not all mages go crazy because there are always some folks who are stronger and some who are weaker.  Let's say the weak Veil strengthens the demons ability to attack the mages' minds and raises but doesn't eliminate the threshold for their ability to resist?

That's fair, and probably accurate.  What we have then is weak mages who may otherwise find the will to resist giving in.  And it goes back to what is above - whoever put the Circle in Kirkwall was a moron.

GavrielKay wrote...
So, according to that codex, the mages willingly sequestered themselves so they could practice magic as they liked in a secure environment.  I can just about envision that seeming like a good idea to mages who'd been relegated to dusting and keeping fires burning.  I hope they weren't short sighted enough to knowingly agree to 1000 years worth of kidnapped children, beaten and raped mages and occasional Rights of Annulment thrown in for fun.

They may very well have been shortsighted.  And I'm not big on being locked into something that someone before me decided, whether it's mages 1000 years ago wanting to be in the Circle, or parents deciding what my profession should be, or going into the family business because that's what the family does, or this is where the family always lived, etc.  All I was trying to point out - and I think you got it - is that those first mages weren't hunted down and herded into some prison against their will.  According to that codex, they agreed to go.

[88mphSlayer]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJ: There's a larger question here that we seem to be coming down on opposite sides of:

Is it right to keep the mages prisoner because it makes the rest of the population feel safer?

I'm talking about actual prisoners like in the circle. Being taken away from their parents at whatever age their power first manifests and never being allowed to leave again except with express permission from above (like Wynne gets in DAO). And I'm not talking about legality since we know that's separate from morality.

Does the perceived safety of the rest of the nation outweigh the human rights of the mages by so much that they should be kept prisoner. Not just trained, or mentored, or have special enforcers to go after actively evil mages - but imprisoned with no regard to any act they have or haven't committed.

considering the state of Kirkwall i'd say the circle is probably the safest place to be

[LobselVith8]

88mphSlayer wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

TJ: There's a larger question here that we seem to be coming down on opposite sides of:

Is it right to keep the mages prisoner because it makes the rest of the population feel safer?

I'm talking about actual prisoners like in the circle. Being taken away from their parents at whatever age their power first manifests and never being allowed to leave again except with express permission from above (like Wynne gets in DAO). And I'm not talking about legality since we know that's separate from morality.

Does the perceived safety of the rest of the nation outweigh the human rights of the mages by so much that they should be kept prisoner. Not just trained, or mentored, or have special enforcers to go after actively evil mages - but imprisoned with no regard to any act they have or haven't committed.

considering the state of Kirkwall i'd say the circle is probably the safest place to be

I think the victims of Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras would respectfully disagree.

[88mphSlayer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

TJ: There's a larger question here that we seem to be coming down on opposite sides of:

Is it right to keep the mages prisoner because it makes the rest of the population feel safer?

I'm talking about actual prisoners like in the circle. Being taken away from their parents at whatever age their power first manifests and never being allowed to leave again except with express permission from above (like Wynne gets in DAO). And I'm not talking about legality since we know that's separate from morality.

Does the perceived safety of the rest of the nation outweigh the human rights of the mages by so much that they should be kept prisoner. Not just trained, or mentored, or have special enforcers to go after actively evil mages - but imprisoned with no regard to any act they have or haven't committed.

considering the state of Kirkwall i'd say the circle is probably the safest place to be

I think the victims of Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras would respectfully disagree.

right because the tens of thousands of civilians getting killed by qunari civil wars or bandits don't count

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages made the hellmouth. Fact.

So some mages once did a bad thing. What's your point?

Who said I have a point? 

Actually, my point is just what you said.  Mages once did something bad.  Not these mages, but mages.  That's all.

OldMan91 wrote...

Old man wanted to correct that to Magisters. As if they're not mages. So I just pointed that out.

Sure, if you want to simplistically put it that way in order to prove some point about how terrible or dangerous mages are. I correct it to magisters because the problem of Tevinter is not that the rulers are mages. It's that there's a small wealthy noble elite or ruling class who happen to be mages.

If it's simplistic to point out the class of people who did it, so be it.

I don't think "mages" are terrible.  I think some are.  I think some aren't.

I do think "mages" are dangerous.  So is any person with a sword or a gun.  So is any dog.  Not all are violent, and not all turn out to actually be a danger, but all are dangerous.

Tevinter has a ton of problems, much of which is the structure, where power - in this case, magical power - equals position.  It would be just as bad if it was power based on who has the most soldiers or the most money.  None of those make a person qualified to have position.

But I do think Tevinter was put into the game as a game world example of what COULD happen when mages are left unchecked.  Mages have power other people don't have.  When some people have power others don't, they feel they should be in charge, not those without the power.  They sometimes feel those without the power have no business questioning them.  And the only way they respect someone is if they have the same power.

it doesn't only go for mages, and it's not only in the game.  In the real world, you see or hear about people with knowledge someone else doesn't have, taking a position that the other person is lesser.  I'm smarter than my boss, the CEO doesn't know how to do this, who are they to tell me what to do, etc.

I see Tevinter as an in game example of what can happen when that attitude becomes prevelant among mages.  Tevinter is used in game as a cautionary tale, and is meant to be such a tale.  How much caution any person gives to it is, of course, up to them.

[LobselVith8]

88mphSlayer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

considering the state of Kirkwall i'd say the circle is probably the safest place to be

I think the victims of Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras would respectfully disagree.

right because the tens of thousands of civilians getting killed by qunari civil wars or bandits don't count

Safer than living in a dictatorship where rapists like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras are just two of the jailors? We also have the Knight-Commander who is slowly losing her mind and Knight-Captain Cullen who thinks mages can't be treated like people and are weapons. I'd say so.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 mai 2011 - 01:25 .

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's an account of events from the Chantry perspective, TJPags. I don't expect the Chantry perspective to be unbiased against the actual attitudes of mages who were placed into prison when they had been protesting their lack of rights. Given that it's written from the Chantry perspective and describes how mages were imprisoned because of a nonviolent protest, which is why mages in modern day Thedas are forced to live in Circle Towers, I find it revealing.

Well, we'll have to add this to the "agree to disagree" list, Lob.

I accept that it's wrriten from a Chantry perspective, but it kind of paints the Divine in a poor light, saying she needed to be talked out of an Exalted March.  Basically, the mages had her by the short hairs, and she wasn't doing much about it, since even her own people were disagreeing with her.  Makes her look kind of like Meredith, IMO (not as bad, but similar). 

If you don't think the mages went willingly, what is it you think they were asking for?  Cookies after meals?

If you can give me an answer to that question (not the cookie part  ) I may revise my opinion.  But honestly, I really think we have to toss almost every codex entry - certainly most of the historical ones - out the window completely, given that they're unreliable (per DG) and we don't know what part is the unreliable part.

I think the mages wanted equality - just as Parthalan did when he helped King Calenhad form Ferelden from warring teyrnirs, only to abandon the nation he helped forge because the Chantry hunted him down.

Also, I give credit to the templars for stopping Divine Ambrosia II from murdering peaceful protesters. I don't think all templars are bad - we see plenty of good templars in Origins to demonstrate that fact - Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, and Knight-Commander Greagoir. However, I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the correct path for mages. Having a religious organization control the lives of mages when they preach that mages are responsible for destroying the Golden City and refer to mages as cursed (which even Meredith and Bethany bring up since they are both Andrastians) is a recipe for disaster.

See, we can agree on some things . . .

That said, yes, the mages maybe wanted equality.  But they accepted the Circles.  That's how I see it.

But again - I'm okay with the Circle structure in general.  I think it can be changed, certainly.  I think Kirkwall was a despicable situation.  But in general, I think Circles are a good thing.

GavrielKay wrote...

TJ: There's a larger question here that we seem to be coming down on opposite sides of:

Is it right to keep the mages prisoner because it makes the rest of the population feel safer?

I'm talking about actual prisoners like in the circle. Being taken away from their parents at whatever age their power first manifests and never being allowed to leave again except with express permission from above (like Wynne gets in DAO). And I'm not talking about legality since we know that's separate from morality.

Does the perceived safety of the rest of the nation outweigh the human rights of the mages by so much that they should be kept prisoner. Not just trained, or mentored, or have special enforcers to go after actively evil mages - but imprisoned with no regard to any act they have or haven't committed.

Yes, I think that's the main thing we won't agree on.

I touched on this in my prior post, and above.  I can go deeper if you feel it will help.

[88mphSlayer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

considering the state of Kirkwall i'd say the circle is probably the safest place to be

I think the victims of Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras would respectfully disagree.

right because the tens of thousands of civilians getting killed by qunari civil wars or bandits don't count

Safer than living in a dictatorship where rapists like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras are just two of the jailors? I'd say so.

not really, imagine living in a city where everybody including the guards could be out to kill you, maim you, rape you, destroy your home, destroy your family, etc. if that doesn't happen then get prepared to live through countless civil wars where half the city burns to the ground, and if you work an honest living you get to look forward to getting slaughtered by a high dragon

pretty much the best case scenario if you live in kirkwall is that you become champion, because otherwise you're probably going to get cut into pieces and turned into frankenstein by insane blood mages, if you're lucky enough to get through that then prepare to sell your soul to make a dime

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 05 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[NanoKitty]

TJPags wrote...


I don't think "mages" are terrible.  I think some are.  I think some aren't.

I do think "mages" are dangerous.  So is any person with a sword or a gun.  So is any dog.  Not all are violent, and not all turn out to actually be a danger, but all are dangerous.

Thank goodness we don't lock up and abuse all people with swords, guns or dogs, just to make everyone else feel safer!  

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Yes, I think that's the main thing we won't agree on.

I touched on this in my prior post, and above.  I can go deeper if you feel it will help.

No, I understand.  I'll just thank you for a very civil discussion about the issue and say that I think I understand and can respect your point of view. 

I have to say that I'm glad it isn't a real world issue, because I don't think humanity at large in this world we live in would handle it any better than the fictional characters in the game do.  I suppose that's how it ends up feeling so personal and makes for a good gaming experience.