4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

pretty much the best case scenario if you live in kirkwall is that you become champion, because otherwise you're probably going to get cut into pieces and turned into frankenstein by insane blood mages, if you're lucky enough to get through that then prepare to sell your soul to make a dime

Hawke actively goes out of her way to get into trouble, you know.

[LobselVith8]

88mphSlayer wrote...

not really, imagine living in a city where everybody including the guards could be out to kill you, maim you, rape you,

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

88mphSlayer wrote...

destroy your home, destroy your family, etc. if that doesn't happen then get prepared to live through countless civil wars where half the city burns to the ground, and if you work an honest living you get to look forward to getting slaughtered by a high dragon

As opposed to slaughtered by an army of templars like some of the mages are, unless Hawke decides to protect them against Orsino and Meredith?

88mphSlayer wrote...

pretty much the best case scenario if you live in kirkwall is that you become champion, because otherwise you're probably going to get cut into pieces and turned into frankenstein by insane blood mages, if you're lucky enough to get through that then prepare to sell your soul to make a dime

As opposed to getting raped by a templar like Alain was, so he accepted Ser Thrask's offer to join a legion of renegade templars and renegade Circle mages that will mean his execution unless Hawke intervenes on his behalf?

[TJPags]

NanoKitty wrote...

TJPags wrote...


I don't think "mages" are terrible.  I think some are.  I think some aren't.

I do think "mages" are dangerous.  So is any person with a sword or a gun.  So is any dog.  Not all are violent, and not all turn out to actually be a danger, but all are dangerous.

Thank goodness we don't lock up and abuse all people with swords, guns or dogs, just to make everyone else feel safer!  

Yes, that's why we have leash laws for dogs, carry and purchase regulations for guns, and I really can't see carrying a sword around with you being legal in too many places.

We don't always lock them up - but we sure do restrict them.  And a lot of people want even more restriction than we already have.

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yes, I think that's the main thing we won't agree on.

I touched on this in my prior post, and above.  I can go deeper if you feel it will help.

No, I understand.  I'll just thank you for a very civil discussion about the issue and say that I think I understand and can respect your point of view. 

I have to say that I'm glad it isn't a real world issue, because I don't think humanity at large in this world we live in would handle it any better than the fictional characters in the game do.  I suppose that's how it ends up feeling so personal and makes for a good gaming experience.

You're welcome, and I'll extend my thanks to you, along with a final point of agreement:

It's a VERY good thing this isn't a real world problem.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

Question... It's clear that you think the templars are bad in general, and the mages are not bad in general. Why do you think that the majority of mages you don't meet are decent human beings, but the majority of templars you don't meet aren't?

[GavrielKay]

As a follow up to my real world comment, there's an interesting (and disturbing) experiment that was done in 1971 to see how otherwise normal people would react under prisoner/guard situations. Look up Stanford Prison Experiment on wikipedia if you're curious. It's very sad what people will do when they feel they have the power to do it.

[NanoKitty]

And there is a very big difference between requiring someone to complete a training course and concealed carry permit (or get a leash for a dog, etc.) and raping, whipping and starving someone like the mages.

[Xilizhra]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

Question... It's clear that you think the templars are bad in general, and the mages are not bad in general. Why do you think that the majority of mages you don't meet are decent human beings, but the majority of templars you don't meet aren't?

The templar organization as a whole is evil, and most templars will be forced into compliance with some evil even if they don't commit it themselves. Though there are always those who rebel.

[TJPags]

NanoKitty wrote...

And there is a very big difference between requiring someone to complete a training course and concealed carry permit (or get a leash for a dog, etc.) and raping, whipping and starving someone like the mages.

Of course there is.

But then, who advocated raping, whipping, or starving mages?  I certainly didn't.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

Question... It's clear that you think the templars are bad in general, and the mages are not bad in general. Why do you think that the majority of mages you don't meet are decent human beings, but the majority of templars you don't meet aren't?

The templar organization as a whole is evil, and most templars will be forced into compliance with some evil even if they don't commit it themselves. Though there are always those who rebel.

Can I ask what you base this on?

[GavrielKay]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Question... It's clear that you think the templars are bad in general, and the mages are not bad in general. Why do you think that the majority of mages you don't meet are decent human beings, but the majority of templars you don't meet aren't?

Without actually knowing all the mages and all the Templars - I'd say it's generally natural to assume that an oppressed people are largely undeserving and the oppressors are largely people who enjoy their superiority. 

Neither side would be composed entirely of those personality types of course, but that's the tendency.

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

The templar organization as a whole is evil, and most templars will be forced into compliance with some evil even if they don't commit it themselves. Though there are always those who rebel.

Must be nice to be able to just pass judgement on a whole lot of people you've never met before. Do you wish they were all killed because they're templars?

[Xilizhra]

To TJ: basically what Gavriel said.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

Question... It's clear that you think the templars are bad in general, and the mages are not bad in general. Why do you think that the majority of mages you don't meet are decent human beings, but the majority of templars you don't meet aren't?

I addressed there are good templars on the prior page of this thread, like Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir. I'd address Ser Thrask as a good templar, too. I made it clear that I think that the Chantry controlled Circles aren't the correct course of action because it's a religious institution that has a very negative view of mages - to the point of blaming them for the fall of the Golden City and addressing them as "cursed."

Also, I've addressed that it's our ignorance about the many men, women, and children in the Gallows that makes it clear that we can neither praise or condemn them, because we know next to nothing about them and our interaction with Circle mages is extremely limited. What we do know is that they are going to be executed for an action that the apostate Anders committed.

[GavrielKay]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Must be nice to be able to just pass judgement on a whole lot of people you've never met before. Do you wish they were all killed because they're templars?

Which nicely sums up the problem of the Right of Annulment against the circle - which contains a lot of people you've never met.  The game doesn't ask you to decide if you want to run through Kirkwall exterminating the Templars when we can only prove the crimes of a few.  It does ask us to consider killing the circle mages on the same flimsy evidence.

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Question... It's clear that you think the templars are bad in general, and the mages are not bad in general. Why do you think that the majority of mages you don't meet are decent human beings, but the majority of templars you don't meet aren't?

Without actually knowing all the mages and all the Templars - I'd say it's generally natural to assume that an oppressed people are largely undeserving and the oppressors are largely people who enjoy their superiority. 

Neither side would be composed entirely of those personality types of course, but that's the tendency.

I'll address this to Xilzhra as well:

Might be a reasonable assumption.  Might be wrong, though.  That's the way assumptions go, after all.

Me, I see Templars as police, or as prison guards.  Sure, there are some bad apples who get off on having the power.  But there are many who believe they're providing a valuable and necessary service.

Now, whether any of us think the Templars are performing a valuable and necessary service is, of course, for them to decide.  I'm pretty sure I know where Gavriel is on that issue, and I can guess where you are also, Xil.  Which is fine.

But isn't it possible that the majority of Templars think that's what they're doing, rather than doing something evil?

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

not really, imagine living in a city where everybody including the guards could be out to kill you, maim you, rape you,

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

88mphSlayer wrote...

destroy your home, destroy your family, etc. if that doesn't happen then get prepared to live through countless civil wars where half the city burns to the ground, and if you work an honest living you get to look forward to getting slaughtered by a high dragon

As opposed to slaughtered by an army of templars like some of the mages are, unless Hawke decides to protect them against Orsino and Meredith?

88mphSlayer wrote...

pretty much the best case scenario if you live in kirkwall is that you become champion, because otherwise you're probably going to get cut into pieces and turned into frankenstein by insane blood mages, if you're lucky enough to get through that then prepare to sell your soul to make a dime

As opposed to getting raped by a templar like Alain was, so he accepted Ser Thrask's offer to join a legion of renegade templars and renegade Circle mages that will mean his execution unless Hawke intervenes on his behalf?

Do me one favour, quit crying rape in posts. 

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

Mages, templars, hookers, kids controlled by demons all over. Major evidence.

Meredith did not call for the execution of every man, woman and child. She called for the rite of annulment when half a town blew up in front of her eyes, what should she do? Its thedas, and she is way past the realm of a normal commander at this point she had power and abused it and fell flat on her face. 

Thrask helped mages all the way and he was killed because... well, he told Grace to restrain herself and she killed him.

Yet if you side with templars, not the bloody rapists which people find easy to throw out there (seriously, stop it), to me it is very simply get order back in this blasted place called Thedas.

I second Varrics comment: 'I think i'm sick of mages and templars'. <_<

[NanoKitty]

A quick question..... since the gallows is basically a prison for the mages, why are there no magic-dead areas in it? I seem to recall such an area in the mage origin of DAO. Seems like it could be pretty useful to the templars.

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Might be a reasonable assumption.  Might be wrong, though.  That's the way assumptions go, after all.

...

But isn't it possible that the majority of Templars think that's what they're doing, rather than doing something evil?

In a game of total fantasy everything is possible - and there's a lovely luxury in being able to play it out however you like and explore what it makes you think about without anyone getting hurt.  This is a good thing.

Yep, the assumption I point out could well be wrong.  Certainly the devs offer plenty of mages run amok to validate the idea that perhaps keeping them under lock and key isn't such a ludicrous idea.  My innate skepticism always butts in and notices that I'm being manipulated a bit there, but so what, it's a game.

I would like to hope that under normal circumstances with a powerful and attentive Grand Cleric and non-psycho-possessed Knight Commander that there is actually some selection process that weeds out the Templar applicants who are mostly daydreaming about how they can abuse their charges.  I don't see a lot of evidence of this taking place in Kirkwall, but I'd like to hope it's the norm.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I addressed there are good templars on the prior page of this thread, like Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir. I'd address Ser Thrask as a good templar, too. I made it clear that I think that the Chantry controlled Circles aren't the correct course of action because it's a religious institution that has a very negative view of mages - to the point of blaming them for the fall of the Golden City and addressing them as "cursed."

Also, I've addressed that it's our ignorance about the many men, women, and children in the Gallows that makes it clear that we can neither praise or condemn them, because we know next to nothing about them and our interaction with Circle mages is extremely limited. What we do know is that they are going to be executed for an action that the apostate Anders committed.

Are you saying that you *don't* paint the templars as a group as the villains most of the time?

[thesuperdarkone]

If you side with Meredith, you get a mission from a bunch of templars to hunt down some apostates. When you kill the apostates, the templars decide to kill ALL non mage people just for being related to the apostates. Only ONE templar thinks that's wrong so apparently the templars have no problem murdering non mages as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

louise101 wrote...
I second Varrics comment: 'I think i'm sick of mages and templars'. <_<

Indeed.

I'd almost say all this back and force is a microcosm of how the world works. No wonder humanity is far more adept at arguing and pointing fingers than actually sitting down and thinking about solutions.

Both mages and templars have had their fair share of incompetence, idiocy and lunacy. I choose to see those as mostly symptoms of a system that outlived its functionality. Time for something else.

[GavrielKay]

louise101 wrote...

Meredith did not call for the execution of every man, woman and child. She called for the rite of annulment when half a town blew up in front of her eyes, what should she do? Its thedas, and she is way past the realm of a normal commander at this point she had power and abused it and fell flat on her face. 

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, or perhaps I'm just missing something. 

The Right of Annulment is about systematically going through the circle and killing all the mages.  She says the public will demand it because of the Chantry explosion, but I personally believe the "right" thing to do would have been to rally the Templars to protect the mages against a vengeful populace while explaining to them that the actual guilty party was in custody. 

She had already asked for the RoA before the explosion, further proving that it was only an excuse.  Her own personal feelings and the corruption of the idol made her do it.

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Meredith did not call for the execution of every man, woman and child. She called for the rite of annulment when half a town blew up in front of her eyes, what should she do? Its thedas, and she is way past the realm of a normal commander at this point she had power and abused it and fell flat on her face. 

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, or perhaps I'm just missing something. 

The Right of Annulment is about systematically going through the circle and killing all the mages.  She says the public will demand it because of the Chantry explosion, but I personally believe the "right" thing to do would have been to rally the Templars to protect the mages against a vengeful populace while explaining to them that the actual guilty party was in custody. 

She had already asked for the RoA before the explosion, further proving that it was only an excuse.  Her own personal feelings and the corruption of the idol made her do it.

The bolded part bears repeating.

Meredith already wanted to Anull the Circle before Anders did a thing.  Anders act only gave her the authority to do what she previously needed to ask someone else's permission for.

She did NOT call for the RoA because of Anders.  Anders was the excuse she gave.  As I said in a post yesterday, she didn't NEED an excuse anymore.

She called for the RoA because she thought it was needed.  We can discuss whether she was right or wrong in that, whether it was the idol speaking instead of rational thought.  But let's please stop saying she called for it because of Anders.  That was just her excuse, which she didn't need.

[Lewie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
I second Varrics comment: 'I think i'm sick of mages and templars'. <_<

Indeed.

I'd almost say all this back and force is a microcosm of how the world works. No wonder humanity is far more adept at arguing and pointing fingers than actually sitting down and thinking about solutions.

Both mages and templars have had their fair share of incompetence, idiocy and lunacy. I choose to see those as mostly symptoms of a system that outlived its functionality. Time for something else.

True, its purpose doesn't exactly leave you feeling like you accomplished something. No matter which side you choose, you have failed in some respect. 

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

Do me one favour, quit crying rape in posts. 

I referrenced the kind of templars Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras were.

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

Ser Bardel had doubts, and it was Ser Alrik who ordered Karl tranquil. Alrik refused Bardel the chance to take his concerns to Meredith.

louise101 wrote...

Mages, templars, hookers, kids controlled by demons all over. Major evidence.

Many apostates who had no known connection to the local Circle of Magi, and a few Circle mages. How many of the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle did your Hawke meet again? How many mages are in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches? The Gallows was designed to accomodate thousands, after all.

louise101 wrote...

Meredith did not call for the execution of every man, woman and child. She called for the rite of annulment when half a town blew up in front of her eyes, what should she do? Its thedas, and she is way past the realm of a normal commander at this point she had power and abused it and fell flat on her face. 

She called for the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Kirkwall Circle because of what an apostate did, and she proceeded to ignore said apostate.

louise101 wrote...

Thrask helped mages all the way and he was killed because... well, he told Grace to restrain herself and she killed him.

Yet if you side with templars, not the bloody rapists which people find easy to throw out there (seriously, stop it), to me it is very simply get order back in this blasted place called Thedas.

Murdering people who are innocent of Anders' crime doesn't bring order, and you're talking about siding with an insane Knight-Commander who wants to stab Bethany in the back.

louise101 wrote...

I second Varrics comment: 'I think i'm sick of mages and templars'. <_< 

That doesn't seem to stop you from talking about them, though.