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[Lewie]

TJPags wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Meredith did not call for the execution of every man, woman and child. She called for the rite of annulment when half a town blew up in front of her eyes, what should she do? Its thedas, and she is way past the realm of a normal commander at this point she had power and abused it and fell flat on her face. 

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, or perhaps I'm just missing something. 

The Right of Annulment is about systematically going through the circle and killing all the mages.  She says the public will demand it because of the Chantry explosion, but I personally believe the "right" thing to do would have been to rally the Templars to protect the mages against a vengeful populace while explaining to them that the actual guilty party was in custody. 

She had already asked for the RoA before the explosion, further proving that it was only an excuse.  Her own personal feelings and the corruption of the idol made her do it.

The bolded part bears repeating.

Meredith already wanted to Anull the Circle before Anders did a thing.  Anders act only gave her the authority to do what she previously needed to ask someone else's permission for.

She did NOT call for the RoA because of Anders.  Anders was the excuse she gave.  As I said in a post yesterday, she didn't NEED an excuse anymore.

She called for the RoA because she thought it was needed.  We can discuss whether she was right or wrong in that, whether it was the idol speaking instead of rational thought.  But let's please stop saying she called for it because of Anders.  That was just her excuse, which she didn't need.

She is arguing with Orsino about searching the tower from top to bottom, he's saying no and walks off to tell Elthina. She says something like you will not involve her grace in this and anders appears, tells them they have both failed and boom. Then she say as knight commander i hereby invoke the rite of annulment. The rite wasn't called before.

[TJPags]

louise101 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Meredith did not call for the execution of every man, woman and child. She called for the rite of annulment when half a town blew up in front of her eyes, what should she do? Its thedas, and she is way past the realm of a normal commander at this point she had power and abused it and fell flat on her face. 

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, or perhaps I'm just missing something. 

The Right of Annulment is about systematically going through the circle and killing all the mages.  She says the public will demand it because of the Chantry explosion, but I personally believe the "right" thing to do would have been to rally the Templars to protect the mages against a vengeful populace while explaining to them that the actual guilty party was in custody. 

She had already asked for the RoA before the explosion, further proving that it was only an excuse.  Her own personal feelings and the corruption of the idol made her do it.

The bolded part bears repeating.

Meredith already wanted to Anull the Circle before Anders did a thing.  Anders act only gave her the authority to do what she previously needed to ask someone else's permission for.

She did NOT call for the RoA because of Anders.  Anders was the excuse she gave.  As I said in a post yesterday, she didn't NEED an excuse anymore.

She called for the RoA because she thought it was needed.  We can discuss whether she was right or wrong in that, whether it was the idol speaking instead of rational thought.  But let's please stop saying she called for it because of Anders.  That was just her excuse, which she didn't need.

She is arguing with Orsino about searching the tower from top to bottom, he's saying no and walks off to tell Elthina. She says something like you will not involve her grace in this and anders appears, tells them they have both failed and boom. Then she say as knight commander i hereby invoke the rite of annulment. The rite wasn't called before.

No, I wasn't saying it was called before.

She requested it before, of both Elthinna and the Divine.  Elthinna said no, the Divine's answer hadn't arrived yet.  But this shows that Meredith already thought the RoA was called for.

I'm saying she never changed her mind.  She always wanted to do it, got the authority to do it herself when Anders did his thing, and spouted an excuse that she didn't need to give.  She could have easily said "this Circle is corrupt, I invoke the RoA" and it would have been just as valid.

Might not have swayed as many people, but would have been just as valid.

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Do me one favour, quit crying rape in posts. 

I referrenced the kind of templars Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras were.

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

Ser Bardel had doubts, and it was Ser Alrik who ordered Karl tranquil. Alrik refused Bardel the chance to take his concerns to Meredith.

louise101 wrote...

Mages, templars, hookers, kids controlled by demons all over. Major evidence.

Many apostates who had no known connection to the local Circle of Magi, and a few Circle mages. How many of the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle did your Hawke meet again? How many mages are in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches? The Gallows was designed to accomodate thousands, after all.

louise101 wrote...

Meredith did not call for the execution of every man, woman and child. She called for the rite of annulment when half a town blew up in front of her eyes, what should she do? Its thedas, and she is way past the realm of a normal commander at this point she had power and abused it and fell flat on her face. 

She called for the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Kirkwall Circle because of what an apostate did, and she proceeded to ignore said apostate.

louise101 wrote...

Thrask helped mages all the way and he was killed because... well, he told Grace to restrain herself and she killed him.

Yet if you side with templars, not the bloody rapists which people find easy to throw out there (seriously, stop it), to me it is very simply get order back in this blasted place called Thedas.

Murdering people who are innocent of Anders' crime doesn't bring order, and you're talking about siding with an insane Knight-Commander who wants to stab Bethany in the back.

louise101 wrote...

I second Varrics comment: 'I think i'm sick of mages and templars'. <_< 

That doesn't seem to stop you from talking about them, though.

I don't side with meredith, she was on a path to hell, followed suit. She may have stabbed bethany in the back but why care? shes an andrastian apparently.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nevermind, misread.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 mai 2011 - 02:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

louise101 wrote...
 She may have stabbed bethany in the back but why care? shes an andrastian apparently.

I don't think an Andrastian has to accept being unjustly slaughtered for little reason by an insane incompetent lunatic.

If I was Bethany, I would have fought for my life. Bethany handled it bravely really.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 mai 2011 - 03:02 .

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

There's no evidence Karl was tied to the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Ser Bardel doubted Alrik's claims, and Alrik threatened Bardel when he tried to see Meredith about it.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

There's no evidence Karl was tied to the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Ser Bardel doubted Alrik's claims, and Alrik threatened Bardel when he tried to see Meredith about it.

Wait a second.

Did we do the same quest?  The one where Anders, a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground, was seeking to break Karl out of the Gallows?

That sounds like he was involved with revolutionaries and the mage underground to me. . . .

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

There's no evidence Karl was tied to the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Ser Bardel doubted Alrik's claims, and Alrik threatened Bardel when he tried to see Meredith about it.

Lets just agree to disagree. Anders himself says that he was passing letters to karl through a blasted cleaner or something. We could speculate forever on this but somehow the templars got wind of these letters. More speculation. What did the letters say? We could speculate it was about karl hating the circle, maybe anders gave to much info? Also why was karl in the chantry, conviently, the only tranquil mage to be seen in there. Ever.

Many spaces to fill in the blanks, put lots of people together and what happens. 

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The templar organization as a whole is evil, and most templars will be forced into compliance with some evil even if they don't commit it themselves. Though there are always those who rebel.

Must be nice to be able to just pass judgement on a whole lot of people you've never met before. Do you wish they were all killed because they're templars?

I do.  They're the military arm of an evil organization.

[Lewie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
 She may have stabbed bethany in the back but why care? shes an andrastian apparently.

I don't think an Andrastian has to accept being unjustly slaughtered for little reason by an insane incompetent lunatic.

If I was Bethany, I would have fought for my life. Bethany handled it bravely really.

Bethany i loved. Again, give her to the circle or the Grey Wardens, im not even sure still if any is the lesser of 2 evils. I haven't played where her life is threatened at the end.  Or carvers, if that happens. I just realised! We all go free in my playthroughs 

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

There's no evidence Karl was tied to the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Ser Bardel doubted Alrik's claims, and Alrik threatened Bardel when he tried to see Meredith about it.

Wait a second.

Did we do the same quest?  The one where Anders, a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground, was seeking to break Karl out of the Gallows?

That sounds like he was involved with revolutionaries and the mage underground to me. . . .

You mean where Anders, who was known as a healer to the refugees, asked for Hawke's help to meet Karl in the Kirkwall Chantry?

Again, there's no evidence Karl was associated with the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Assumptions are not facts.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

What did the letters say? We could speculate it was about karl hating the circle, maybe anders gave to much info? Also why was karl in the chantry, conviently, the only tranquil mage to be seen in there. Ever.

Many spaces to fill in the blanks, put lots of people together and what happens. 

Anders said Karl was writing about the living conditions of the Gallows and Meredith locking up mages, refusing to allow them at court, and making them tranquil for the slighest offenses. Karl informed Anders to meet him in the Chantry, but he was already tranquil by then. Anders came to Kirkwall because of Karl, who was his first love, and he killed him because Karl begged him to.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

There's no evidence Karl was tied to the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Ser Bardel doubted Alrik's claims, and Alrik threatened Bardel when he tried to see Meredith about it.

Wait a second.

Did we do the same quest?  The one where Anders, a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground, was seeking to break Karl out of the Gallows?

That sounds like he was involved with revolutionaries and the mage underground to me. . . .

You mean where Anders, who was known as a healer to the refugees, asked for Hawke's help to meet Karl in the Kirkwall Chantry?

Again, there's no evidence Karl was associated with the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Assumptions are not facts.

Are you saying Anders was NOT a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground?

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Are you saying Anders was NOT a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground?

Aren't we talking about Karl? It seemed to me that what happened to Karl was what pushed Anders to be tied to the mage underground and start his manifesto, if that's what you mean.

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

What did the letters say? We could speculate it was about karl hating the circle, maybe anders gave to much info? Also why was karl in the chantry, conviently, the only tranquil mage to be seen in there. Ever.

Many spaces to fill in the blanks, put lots of people together and what happens. 

Anders said Karl was writing about the living conditions of the Gallows and Meredith locking up mages, refusing to allow them at court, and making them tranquil for the slighest offenses. Karl informed Anders to meet him in the Chantry, but he was already tranquil by then. Anders came to Kirkwall because of Karl, who was his first love, and he killed him because Karl begged him to.

Yes, so Karl is betrayed by 'someone', handed to the templars and as a tranquil is placed in the chantry. Waiting to meet a fellow mage with a spirit of justice. Game over. lol.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

There's no evidence Karl was tied to the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Ser Bardel doubted Alrik's claims, and Alrik threatened Bardel when he tried to see Meredith about it.

Wait a second.

Did we do the same quest?  The one where Anders, a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground, was seeking to break Karl out of the Gallows?

That sounds like he was involved with revolutionaries and the mage underground to me. . . .

You mean where Anders, who was known as a healer to the refugees, asked for Hawke's help to meet Karl in the Kirkwall Chantry?

Again, there's no evidence Karl was associated with the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Assumptions are not facts.

Are you saying Anders was NOT a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground?

Anders doesn't bring up the mage underground until Act 2, a full three years since the attempt to rescue Karl. It is possible and even probable that the group he's working with didn't even exist when we first met Anders.

[SirGladiator]

I agree completely that you can't really side with Meredith, particularly at the very end. She's a totally lawless, idol-crazed murderer. In a way, this is kind've like the whole Merrill thing, it depends in part on whether you've played DAO or not. If you've played DAO, you know that blood magic does not = inherently bad, and those mirrors arent bad and dangerous at all, they're useful and good and cool. However everybody in the game other than Merrill seems to think that blood magic and the mirror are both evil, and she should stay away from both, so naturally many are inclined to think that way also. Its the same deal here, if you've played DAO you know that Templars have no authority to invoke the Right of Annullment, only certain of their superiors have that authority. If you side with Meredith it might seem like you're siding with authority if you haven't played DAO, but if you have you know she's just plain calling for murder, she has no authority to invoke the right, its just completely lawless murder. Of course even if you did side with Meredith up to a point, you couldn't possibly support her murdering Bethany unless you were trying to be as evil as possible, and even then I cant imagine somebody actually doing that, its so sick and evil its beyond my comprehension how anyone could ever do that. Bethany is so good and awesome, I support the mages just for her, no matter how much the crazy/evil mages annoy me .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are you saying Anders was NOT a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground?

Aren't we talking about Karl? It seemed to me that what happened to Karl was what pushed Anders to be tied to the mage underground and start his manifesto, if that's what you mean.

Karl had connections to Anders. Anders was part of the mage underground. Therefore, Karl had connections to the mage underground. Anders was in connection with the mage underground before Karl was tranquilized.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are you saying Anders was NOT a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground?

Aren't we talking about Karl? It seemed to me that what happened to Karl was what pushed Anders to be tied to the mage underground and start his manifesto, if that's what you mean.

Karl had connections to Anders. Anders was part of the mage underground. Therefore, Karl had connections to the mage underground. Anders was in connection with the mage underground before Karl was tranquilized.

Actually you're wrong.  Anders wasn't part of the mage underground until Act 2.  What happened to Karl pushed him into it.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

Question... It's clear that you think the templars are bad in general, and the mages are not bad in general. Why do you think that the majority of mages you don't meet are decent human beings, but the majority of templars you don't meet aren't?

Most templars i suspect are decent human beings. The problem is organisation itself. If people like alrick or kerras can do actions without any consquences then it shows that there is a lot of corruption in the order. It also shows that the templar system is not working.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 05 mai 2011 - 08:42 .

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are you saying Anders was NOT a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground?

Aren't we talking about Karl? It seemed to me that what happened to Karl was what pushed Anders to be tied to the mage underground and start his manifesto, if that's what you mean.

Karl had connections to Anders. Anders was part of the mage underground. Therefore, Karl had connections to the mage underground. Anders was in connection with the mage underground before Karl was tranquilized.

Actually you're wrong.  Anders wasn't part of the mage underground until Act 2.  What happened to Karl pushed him into it.

-Polaris

I've got a brick here you can debate with if you want.  You won't get through to it anymore than Emp, but at least it won't keep repeating the same lies it was just disproven on 5 minutes before.  It just sits there.   the brick.

DKJaigen wrote...

Most templars i suspect are decent human beings. The problem is organisation itself. If people like alrick or kerras can do without any consquences then its hows that their is a lot of corruption in the order. It also shows that the templar system is not working.

And therein lies the problem.  And the hilarious double-standard now that I think about it.  It's okay to punish the Circle as a whole for the acts of escapee's crimes and apostates, but it's not okay to judge the templars or the Chantry as a whole when they let scum like Alrik and Karras run rampant.

[Sylvianus]

1- Do not mix everything. Blood magic can be already seen as something dangerous and evil, even if useful. Blood magic IS FORBIDDEN, that 'all and I agree with this law.

2- Being on the side of the Templars is totally justifiable, given the harshness of the situation, the resolution impossible, and the threat of a large portion of the Magi, whether you like it or not. Yes there are innocents, but also many hidden dangerous mages. Remember,  Orsino intercepts a letter of conspirators inside the circle and sent us to investigate. We  surprised  and killed them, but it is certainly a portion of a whole. 

 Everything has simply exploded. I don't support anyone, I must chose a side in a horrible conflict that reached its climax.

3-  It's not Meredith who has declared war and attacked THE PEOPLE AND CIVILIANS, the high pretress among the victims. Anders has caused a special situation, Meredith was upset, but ultimately it does not mean she has not been right. We saw that with Leliana that Chantry was already considering action against Kirkwall.

4- Sometimes you can not always follow the procedure and bureaucracy, on the ground, it sometimes requires going beyond that. And I agree with that when events can exceed the reason and cause a systemic crisis that gets out of control. Do not act when needed, doing nothing can be more fatal that act.

5-  Yes we agree that mages must be better treated, but no we desagree, Kirkwall area is completely rotten, abominations and blood mages are everywhere, and you refuse to admit that despite the experience of the game that shows very clearly what undeniable fact.

6- And the fact that you said that ALL the Templars are bad, or this organization is BAD but there is only a very small minority of mage who are evil  ( despite the experience of the game that shows very clearly  the contrary) don't give me any desire to be convinced, and  follow  your thought . Because, I see nothing but a denial and blindness biased.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 11:42 .

[Urazz]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The letter said that karl was part of a rebellion, even before anders did anything which proves that they knew something was up. They were proved right.

There's no evidence Karl was tied to the mage underground or any revolutionaries. Ser Bardel doubted Alrik's claims, and Alrik threatened Bardel when he tried to see Meredith about it.

Wait a second.

Did we do the same quest?  The one where Anders, a revolutionary with ties to the mage underground, was seeking to break Karl out of the Gallows?

That sounds like he was involved with revolutionaries and the mage underground to me. . . .

Yeah it's off the templar lieautenant you kill.  You gotta kill him before the last guy is killed so you can pick up the note before you are forced to the cutscene that gets Karl killed.  After that cutscene you are forced back to Ander's hideout and are unable to pick it up again.

But yeah, it does say that Alrik suspected Karl was part of the resistance and Ser Bardel doubted it and wanted to go see Meredith about it.  Either way, I think it shows that Meredith and her cronies were a bit out of touch with the regular templars and were keeping control with threats and force.  Not saying Meredith supported Alrik's methods but he obviously was one of her favorites if he was able to go on for so long tranquiling and raping mages without him being  reported so high was up in her ranks to be able to threaten and bully any dissent or threats to report him.

If anything, I see this as a potential foreshadowing of the templar/mage rebellion that Thrask and Grace start

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...

1- Do not mix everything. Blood magic can already be seen as something dangerous and evil, even if useful. Blood magic IS FORBIDDEN, that 'all and I agree with this law.

Speed limits are a good law too, but we don't commit genocide when people break it.

2- Being on the side of the Templars is totally justifiable, given the harshness of the situation, the resolution impossible, and the threat of a large portion of the Magi, whether you like it or not. Everything has simply exploded. I don't support anyone, I must chose a side in a horrible conflict that reached its climax. 
 

A threat created by the Chantry, and a threat that will continue to rise as long as the Chantry is free to abuse and oppress.

3-  It's not Meredith who has declared war and attacked THE PEOPLE AND CIVILIANS, the high pretress among the victims. Anders has caused a special situation, Meredith was upset, but ultimately it does not mean she has not been right. We saw that with Leliana that Chantry already considering action against Kirkwall.

WRONG.  I swear if I live to be 100 I'll never understand how people can keep missing the fact Meredith is completely insane.  Was the entire thing with her having the object that led Bartrand to feeding people their own severed fingers too subtle?  Or the way she accuses anyone who disagrees with her, including all the other templars and a Hawke that sided with her completely, of being a blood mage thrall?  Meredith was not "upset" she was INSANE.

Second of all, "people and civilians" is bull****.  Mages ARE people, and mages ARE civilians.  A civilian is a person not under active duty in a military organization.  And do not try to claim the Circle is a military organization, the most reasonable templar in history, Knight-Commander Gregior, did not want mages helping to fight darkspawn early in the Fifth Blight.

Elthina was not a "victim."  I spit on that scumbag's charred corpse.  Everything that happened can rightly be blamed on her unwillingness to do her job and keep her subordinates in line.  Likewise, Leliana and the Divine already considering launching a crusade against Kirkwall only further shows that the Chantry is a greater evil than the blood mages just fighting for their freedom.

 4- Sometimes you can not always follow the procedure and bureaucracy, on the ground, it sometimes requires going beyond that. And I agree with that when events can exceed the reason and cause a systemic crisis that gets out of control. Do not act when needed, doing nothing can be more fatal that act.

Well, now we don't have to come up with a title for Elthina's biography.

5-  Yes we agree that mages must be better treated, but no we desagree, Kirkwall area is completely rotten, abominations and blood mages are everywhere, and you refuse to admit that despite the experience of the game that shows very clearly what undeniable fact.

What I see is a desperate and abused people lashing out after having had all they could take, and a bunch of religious nuts abusing their power in a system with no checks and balances.  The mage rebellion is little different than the ancient slave rebellion that ended Tevinter's reign of terror in Kirkwall ages ago.  So no, I will not side with the neo-Tevinter empire known as the Chantry.

6- And the fact that you said that ALL the Templars are bad, or this organization is BAD but there is only a very small minority of mage who are evil  ( despite the experience of the game that shows very clearly  the contrary) don't give me any desire to be convinced, and  follow  your thought .

I'm not trying to convince.  I've long given up on trying to reason with people that read "the enemy mages Hawke encounters are renegades, the law-abiding ones don't leave the Gallows" and somehow interprets that as "only a very small minority of mages are evil" and then uses that as the basis for yet another strawman in the cornfield.  That said, I'm sure there are lots of "good" templars.  I'm equally sure there were lots of "good" soldiers under every other evil empire.  It doesn't mean they don't need to be fought.  You don't bring down a tyrant by giving a personality test to his soldiers individually before shooting them.

[nos_astra]

Urazz wrote...
Yeah it's off the templar lieautenant you kill.  You gotta kill him before the last guy is killed so you can pick up the note before you are forced to the cutscene that gets Karl killed.  After that cutscene you are forced back to Ander's hideout and are unable to pick it up again.

But yeah, it does say that Alrik suspected Karl was part of the resistance and Ser Bardel doubted it and wanted to go see Meredith about it.  Either way, I think it shows that Meredith and her cronies were a bit out of touch with the regular templars and were keeping control with threats and force.  Not saying Meredith supported Alrik's methods but he obviously was one of her favorites if he was able to go on for so long tranquiling and raping mages without him being  reported so high was up in her ranks to be able to threaten and bully any dissent or threats to report him.

If anything, I see this as a potential foreshadowing of the templar/mage rebellion that Thrask and Grace start

That's easy to miss.

I wouldn't have thought Alrik so far up in the ranks, but it makes sense. How would he be able to violate the law and intimidate fellow templars if he wasn't.