4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Was the entire thing with her having the object that led Bartrand to feeding people their own severed fingers too subtle? Or the way she accuses anyone who disagrees with her, including all the other templars and a Hawke that sided with her completely, of being a blood mage thrall? Meredith was not "upset" she was INSANE.

I actually don't think she was insane, or at least not insane from the idol, until the very end when she started accusing everyone of being blood mage thralls. Earlier than that, she seemed quite stable, albeit evil; I'm pretty sure she was just naturally evil and the idol was only a factor when she started drawing upon her sword's power.

[Sylvianus]

Speed limits are a good law too, but we don't commit genocide when people break it.

Blood magic is considered immediately punished by death. What did you expect when you crossed the line ? Let there be one or one hundred people who cross the limit, it changes something there ? No. Definitely. What you call genocide, is really only collateral damage, enemies are eliminated along with innocents. Most are indeed dangerous magi bellicose. It's bloody and sad yes, we do not make an omelette without breaking eggs.
　

A threat created by the Chantry, and a threat that will continue to rise as long as the Chantry is free to abuse and oppress.

I agree. Things must change, but it's too late for Kirkwall, and the words of Anders on that perfectly reflect this thought. There must be blood, it's unfortunate but there is no choice. Yes mages have clearly been abused, but should it prevent us from removing an immediate threat in the present moment? No.

Even if Meredith wasn't mad ( remember that we only know is at the end)any Templar in this rotten place. with all these people who go crazy, but also after the attack against the tower, might consider ROA. Of course, without haste, but given the extreme mess that is unfolding, it was asking too much. The situation was uncontrollable.
　

WRONG. I swear if I live to be 100 I'll never understand how people can keep missing the fact Meredith is completely insane. Was the entire thing with her having the object that led Bartrand to feeding people their own severed fingers too subtle? Or the way she accuses anyone who disagrees with her, including all the other templars and a Hawke that sided with her completely, of being a blood mage thrall? Meredith was not "upset" she was INSANE.

Second of all, "people and civilians" is bull****. Mages ARE people, and mages ARE civilians. A civilian is a person not under active duty in a military organization. And do not try to claim the Circle is a military organization, the most reasonable templar in history, Knight-Commander Gregior, did not want mages helping to fight darkspawn early in the Fifth Blight.

Elthina was not a "victim." I spit on that scumbag's charred corpse. Everything that happened can rightly be blamed on her unwillingness to do her job and keep her subordinates in line. Likewise, Leliana and the Divine already considering launching a crusade against Kirkwall only further shows that the Chantry is a greater evil than the blood mages just fighting for their freedom.

Sorry, but yes Kirkwall's chantry and Eltina were collateral victims of the folly of Anders. An innocent victim with all these people inside. Why not attack military forces ? Like terrorist, they attack people for symbol and to make noise. Anders said himself that.

You deny them the right to be innocent people ? But the mages themselves are innocent when we kill them for good reasons because there are some dangerous and other can be follow the others ? Why should we make the difference between mages, and should we not make the difference between the Templars and others?

There are two bellicose camps, some Templars and some Mages. Then everyone is swept away in this mess.

The Chantry is neutral, it refuses to take part in the witch hunt of Meredith. It does nothing for mages, yes, but should it mean we should kill them for that? No.
　

What I see is a desperate and abused people lashing out after having had all they could take, and a bunch of religious nuts abusing their power in a system with no checks and balances. The mage rebellion is little different than the ancient slave rebellion that ended Tevinter's reign of terror in Kirkwall ages ago. So no, I will not side with the neo-Tevinter empire known as the Chantry.

I agree, and I do not deny myself the right to defend the Magi, on the contrary I understand why it explodes and even I can support them in a whole.

BUT there is a big difference.. Mages are fighting for freedom yes, but only fight also for themself at any expense. I am fighting for the City and for the people, and the route of the Templar seems most appropriate. Each can have his considerations. We can always talk later in Thedas, when the threat has been contained in Kirkwall.

I'm not trying to convince. I've long given up on trying to reason with people that read "the enemy mages Hawke encounters are renegades, the law-abiding ones don't leave the Gallows" and somehow interprets that as "only a very small minority of mages are evil" and then uses that as the basis for yet another strawman in the cornfield. That said, I'm sure there are lots of "good" templars. I'm equally sure there were lots of "good" soldiers under every other evil empire. It doesn't mean they don't need to be fought. You don't bring down a tyrant by giving a personality test to his soldiers individually before shooting them.

In this case I am reassured.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 12:36 .

[The Baconer]

Sylvianus wrote...

Speed limits are a good law too, but we don't commit genocide when people break it.

Blood magic is considered immediately punished by death. What did you expect when you crossed the line ? Let there be one or one hundred people who cross the limit, it changes something there ? No. Definitely. What you call genocide, is really only collateral damage, enemies are eliminated along with innocents. Most are indeed dangerous magi bellicose. It's bloody and sad yes, we do not make an omelette without breaking eggs.

I could make a comparison to Tevinter justifications of slavery...

[Sylvianus]

The prohibition of the practice of blood magic is as legal as moral.
Wynn, the first enchanter, and Anders were in full agreement.

[88mphSlayer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

not really, imagine living in a city where everybody including the guards could be out to kill you, maim you, rape you,

Isn't that exactly what the mages endure in the Kirkwall Circle? Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik rape mages, some (like Karl) are illegally made tranquil (as Alrik's note addresses in "Tranquility), and Meredith orders the execution of every man, woman, and child in the Circle of Magi because of an act Anders - a former Grey Warden who never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle - committed.

88mphSlayer wrote...

destroy your home, destroy your family, etc. if that doesn't happen then get prepared to live through countless civil wars where half the city burns to the ground, and if you work an honest living you get to look forward to getting slaughtered by a high dragon

As opposed to slaughtered by an army of templars like some of the mages are, unless Hawke decides to protect them against Orsino and Meredith?

88mphSlayer wrote...

pretty much the best case scenario if you live in kirkwall is that you become champion, because otherwise you're probably going to get cut into pieces and turned into frankenstein by insane blood mages, if you're lucky enough to get through that then prepare to sell your soul to make a dime

As opposed to getting raped by a templar like Alain was, so he accepted Ser Thrask's offer to join a legion of renegade templars and renegade Circle mages that will mean his execution unless Hawke intervenes on his behalf?

so basically you're admitting that the outside world is not - in fact - safer than the circle?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...

The prohibition of the practice of blood magic is as legal as moral.
Wynn, the first enchanter, and Anders were in full agreement.

The prohibition seems to be counter productive.

I doubt the Ancient Tevinter Imperium had this much trouble vis a vis mages. They certainly had their own problems concerning the rest. But when it comes to mages, I doubt they had a lot of problems with abominations, uncontrolled blood magic, while still being able to expand to conquer all of Thedas despite them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 mai 2011 - 02:21 .

[LobselVith8]

88mphSlayer wrote...

so basically you're admitting that the outside world is not - in fact - safer than the circle?

Mages live in a dictatorship, under the rule of a religious organization that preaches that they are cursed. We've seen how bad it can get, from rape to illegal tranquility. Bethany can get Meredith's blade in her back. How is this safe?

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

The prohibition of the practice of blood magic is as legal as moral.
Wynn, the first enchanter, and Anders were in full agreement.

Wynne and the first enchanter have been indoctrinated into this belief since they were children.  Anders too, though for some reason he still thought becoming an abomination of sorts would be a good idea. 

The problem here is that the basis for morality as it applies to magic is the Chantry.  The same Chantry which considers mages cursed and bordering on evil even when they're just sitting in bed reading a book.  Like any tool, blood magic can be used for evil.  Like a machine gun vs. an air gun, some tools are a bit more efficient at what they are used for.  That doesn't make them evil in themselves. 

Buy into the Chantry doctrine if you like.  Like most religious folks it's based on willingness to believe, not any kind of rational discourse.  In order to believe that whatever unknown number of mages are cowering in their rooms in the Gallows having done absolutely nothing wrong (this could be anywhere from 3 to 3000) should die just in case - you have to buy into an entire theology that I dismiss as totally biased.

All respected modern legal systems operate on the concept of innocent until proven guilty.  That it's better to set 100 criminals free than to wrongly imprison just one.  I don't find the mages so inherently dangerous that I believe this principle should be tossed out the window.  If you know who the guilty ones are, punish them.  If you don't know if someone is guilty, bide your time and find out.

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

Sorry, but yes Kirkwall's chantry and Eltina were collateral victims of the folly of Anders. An innocent victim with all these people inside. Why not attack military forces ? Like terrorist, they attack people for symbol and to make noise. Anders said himself that.

Collateral victims?  Elthina was the one person who could have actually stopped things from getting to the point of no return.  Even Anders repeatedly mentions that he hopes somehow she can be convinced to DO something.  She obviously has the authority to tell Meredith to go to her room - she does it right in front of us.  Why she follows this with some stupid self deprecating nonsense about having less power than we think I can't imagine.  The Chantry aren't innocent in this.  They CONTROL the Templars for goodness sake.  They don't carry the swords but they expound the doctrine and command the soldiers.  When a religious group has it's own army, they aren't civilians.

Lets not forget Sister/Mother Petrice either.  Some unknown portion of the sisters are already involved in plotting and scheming against us.  By your logic against the mages, if a few are bad, we are entitled to wipe them out.

[Sylvianus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Sorry, but yes Kirkwall's chantry and Eltina were collateral victims of the folly of Anders. An innocent victim with all these people inside. Why not attack military forces ? Like terrorist, they attack people for symbol and to make noise. Anders said himself that.

Collateral victims?  Elthina was the one person who could have actually stopped things from getting to the point of no return.  Even Anders repeatedly mentions that he hopes somehow she can be convinced to DO something.  She obviously has the authority to tell Meredith to go to her room - she does it right in front of us.  Why she follows this with some stupid self deprecating nonsense about having less power than we think I can't imagine.  The Chantry aren't innocent in this.  They CONTROL the Templars for goodness sake.  They don't carry the swords but they expound the doctrine and command the soldiers.  When a religious group has it's own army, they aren't civilians.

Lets not forget Sister/Mother Petrice either.  Some unknown portion of the sisters are already involved in plotting and scheming against us.  By your logic against the mages, if a few are bad, we are entitled to wipe them out.

Finally, your point of view is not different from mine.  You justify the elimination of a whole, because you feel like some threatening indirectly.

What bothers you like others is that's  the Magi who are the victims. But when they kill innocent people,  ( that you don't consider like innocent  ) who can considered indirect threat or a symbol, it doesn't bother you. I also say that mages are not innocent people in the circle, many are corrupted and dangerous.
 
I wanted to removed all mages because I've seen them as a direct or indirect threat in this horrible situation like you.

That's exactly what I was saying since the beginning, there is no moral camps. It is according to the considerations of each, there are no really innocents, only victims, we're at war.

You talk about genocide, evil, but you should read your own remarks about the Templars, they are as extreme as the decision to obliterate the whole circle.

This is not a blame, on the contrary, but it really proves that morality has nothing to do with that, we must get their hands dirty in both camps. Everyone chooses his path.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 04:52 .

[Sylvianus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

The prohibition of the practice of blood magic is as legal as moral.
Wynn, the first enchanter, and Anders were in full agreement.

Wynne and the first enchanter have been indoctrinated into this belief since they were children.  Anders too, though for some reason he still thought becoming an abomination of sorts would be a good idea. 

The problem here is that the basis for morality as it applies to magic is the Chantry.  The same Chantry which considers mages cursed and bordering on evil even when they're just sitting in bed reading a book.  Like any tool, blood magic can be used for evil.  Like a machine gun vs. an air gun, some tools are a bit more efficient at what they are used for.  That doesn't make them evil in themselves. 

Buy into the Chantry doctrine if you like.  Like most religious folks it's based on willingness to believe, not any kind of rational discourse.  In order to believe that whatever unknown number of mages are cowering in their rooms in the Gallows having done absolutely nothing wrong (this could be anywhere from 3 to 3000) should die just in case - you have to buy into an entire theology that I dismiss as totally biased.

All respected modern legal systems operate on the concept of innocent until proven guilty.  That it's better to set 100 criminals free than to wrongly imprison just one.  I don't find the mages so inherently dangerous that I believe this principle should be tossed out the window.  If you know who the guilty ones are, punish them.  If you don't know if someone is guilty, bide your time and find out.

　You seem to fixate on the doctine and religion, not me. Just have eyes to see the fact, a little logic to measure concretely that it is. Blood magic certainly should not be something common, It's no a matter of doctrine or religion, but precisely because or reason, given the practical experiments of life.

Blood magic we see that's leads, to many bad things when we played DA2 and DAO.

Wynn is much more independent than you think. She even doubted about the Chantry. It is simply an experienced mage, who has lived much of anything, including harm to the blood mage who called  abominations at Ferelden's  circle.

Anders in awakening despises the beliefs of chantry, he believes for example they have manipulated the ideals of Andraste; If there is someone who is less ready to listen chantry' s lessons, it is Anders. No it has its own reasoning. In DA2 he is a former warden, a very powerful and experienced mage, he knows how much blood magic is dangerous.

Blood magic is certainly not something weshould allow for reasons other than religious. Now if Chantry benefits, it does not mean that it has become simply history of doctrine.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 05:16 .

[Aldandil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

The prohibition of the practice of blood magic is as legal as moral.
Wynn, the first enchanter, and Anders were in full agreement.

The prohibition seems to be counter productive.

I doubt the Ancient Tevinter Imperium had this much trouble vis a vis mages. They certainly had their own problems concerning the rest. But when it comes to mages, I doubt they had a lot of problems with abominations, uncontrolled blood magic, while still being able to expand to conquer all of Thedas despite them.

You don't think ancient Tevinter had problems with uncontrolled blood magic? Really? What do you base that on? Even if everything that is made known in DA:O and DA2 should be portrayed in a Chantry angle to make the old Tevinter empire seem bad, it still seems like they had HUGE problems with uncontrolled blood magic, to the point where people were being kept as slaves waiting to be sacrificed to power spells.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

so basically you're admitting that the outside world is not - in fact - safer than the circle?

Mages live in a dictatorship, under the rule of a religious organization that preaches that they are cursed. We've seen how bad it can get, from rape to illegal tranquility. Bethany can get Meredith's blade in her back. How is this safe?

You can get raped in the world aswell, rape is not exclusive to the Circles. You can get stabbed in the back in the world, stabs in the back is not exclusive to the Circle. Tranquilization is exclusive to the Circle, however it is intended as a release or as a punishment, and what happened in Kirkwall was illegal.

The Circles in general seem no more unsafe than the average town really.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

The prohibition of the practice of blood magic is as legal as moral.
Wynn, the first enchanter, and Anders were in full agreement.

The prohibition seems to be counter productive.

I doubt the Ancient Tevinter Imperium had this much trouble vis a vis mages. They certainly had their own problems concerning the rest. But when it comes to mages, I doubt they had a lot of problems with abominations, uncontrolled blood magic, while still being able to expand to conquer all of Thedas despite them.

I sincerely doubt that more mages turn to Blood Magic because of the prohibition, than mages would if it weren't illegal.

[Sylvianus]

Mexico is full of cartel, drug addicts, should we allow the legalization of drug trafficking? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvianus wrote...

Mexico is full of cartel, drug addicts, should we allow the legalization of drug trafficking? 

Why yes of course! Drugs, cartel running and addicts aren't bad by nature, it must be legalized! NAOW!!

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 mai 2011 - 05:22 .

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

so basically you're admitting that the outside world is not - in fact - safer than the circle?

Mages live in a dictatorship, under the rule of a religious organization that preaches that they are cursed. We've seen how bad it can get, from rape to illegal tranquility. Bethany can get Meredith's blade in her back. How is this safe?

You can get raped in the world aswell, rape is not exclusive to the Circles. You can get stabbed in the back in the world, stabs in the back is not exclusive to the Circle. Tranquilization is exclusive to the Circle, however it is intended as a release or as a punishment, and what happened in Kirkwall was illegal.

The Circles in general seem no more unsafe than the average town really.

Is that what you say when murders and rapes occur in schools and hospitals? "This stuff happens all the time in the outside world."

Putting aside the fact that rape and murder shouldn't be happening anywhere; the Circle of Magi, much like a school, exists for the protection and education of people as young as 12 (at least). Especially given what we know about how demons influence mages through negative emotions, if there is anywhere rape definitely shouldn't happen, it's in the Circle. But instead, these activities go on unnoticed (or worse, deliberately hidden) for the better part of a decade. Rape is a depressingly common crime, but when an individual (like Alain, for instance) is repeatedly raped for years, that goes well beyond anything that could be dismissed even by the most twisted rape apologist. 

It should be common sense (and a requirement by law) that any such establishment must put measures in place to prevent individuals from being sexually assaulted. This is pretty basic stuff.

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...
Finally, your point of view is not different from mine.  You justify the elimination of a whole, because you feel like some threatening indirectly.

What bothers you like others is that's  the Magi who are the victims. But when they kill innocent people,  ( that you don't consider like innocent  ) who can considered indirect threat or a symbol, it doesn't bother you. I also say that mages are not innocent people in the circle, many are corrupted and dangerous.
 
I wanted to removed all mages because I've seen them as a direct or indirect threat in this horrible situation like you.

That's exactly what I was saying since the beginning, there is no moral camps. It is according to the considerations of each, there are no really innocents, only victims, we're at war.

You talk about genocide, evil, but you should read your own remarks about the Templars, they are as extreme as the decision to obliterate the whole circle.

This is not a blame, on the contrary, but it really proves that morality has nothing to do with that, we must get their hands dirty in both camps. Everyone chooses his path.

Huh?  I never said that blowing up the Chantry was right or that Anders should have done it. I said your outrage at the Mothers' deaths as "innocents" was misplaced.  The Chantry is the propaganda arm of a militant religion.  They control an army and had the authority to stop what was happening to the mages in the Kirkwall circle. 

Elthina did nothing but wave her hands and hope that somehow, despite being mortal enemies, Meredith and Orsino would play nice and nothing would happen.

Meredith has horrible attrocities going on under her nose.  Either she knew and didn't stop it, or didn't know and was incompetent.  She believed in guilty unless proven innocent and treated her charges that way.

I truly believe, to my core, that treating people the way the mages of Kirkwall were treated is horribly and irredeemably wrong.  Human rights violations on that scale are impossible to excuse.  It is as impossible for me to blame those mages for trying to free themselves by whatever means were available as it seems to be for you to have sympathy for their plight.  They are NOT guilty in the same way a beaten and starved dog is not guilty when it finally bites its abuser.  And if I can't blame the ones who use blood magic or succumb to demons, I certainly can't blame the ones who somehow survived their abuse and held strong - however many or few they are.

So, I will never believe that storming the Gallows and killing every mage in it is "right."  I can understand arguments that it is expedient, or somehow results in less total loss of life than the alternative, but not that it is right.

[Sylvianus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Mexico is full of cartel, drug addicts, should we allow the legalization of drug trafficking? 

Why yes of course! Drugs, cartel running and addicts aren't bad by nature, it must be legalized! NAOW!!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

so basically you're admitting that the outside world is not - in fact - safer than the circle?

Mages live in a dictatorship, under the rule of a religious organization that preaches that they are cursed. We've seen how bad it can get, from rape to illegal tranquility. Bethany can get Meredith's blade in her back. How is this safe?

You can get raped in the world aswell, rape is not exclusive to the Circles. You can get stabbed in the back in the world, stabs in the back is not exclusive to the Circle. Tranquilization is exclusive to the Circle, however it is intended as a release or as a punishment, and what happened in Kirkwall was illegal.

The Circles in general seem no more unsafe than the average town really.

Is that what you say when murders and rapes occur in schools and hospitals? "This stuff happens all the time in the outside world."

Putting aside the fact that rape and murder shouldn't be happening anywhere; the Circle of Magi, much like a school, exists for the protection and education of people as young as 12 (at least). Especially given what we know about how demons influence mages through negative emotions, if there is anywhere rape definitely shouldn't happen, it's in the Circle. But instead, these activities go on unnoticed (or worse, deliberately hidden) for the better part of a decade. Rape is a depressingly common crime, but when an individual (like Alain, for instance) is repeatedly raped for years, that goes well beyond anything that could be dismissed even by the most twisted rape apologist. 

It should be common sense (and a requirement by law) that any such establishment must put measures in place to prevent individuals from being sexually assaulted. This is pretty basic stuff.

I'm saying that becasue they happen in the Circle, does not equate the Circle being a more dangerous place (for your anus anyway), than the outside world.
There most likely are measures in the Circle to prevent the misuse of mages, however, much like in prisons, the Templars (and even other mages for that matter), can intimidate their victims to silence. Which is very much like what happens in some prisons. If Alain never reported it, how can you blame the Circle for not doing aynthing, they didn't even know! The Circle and the Templars can't react to a crime unless the crime is reported. Poor Alain did not report it (under threat of death from Kerras I believe), what was the Templars and Circle supposed to do?

[GavrielKay]

Plaintiff wrote...

You can get raped in the world aswell, rape is not exclusive to the Circles. You can get stabbed in the back in the world, stabs in the back is not exclusive to the Circle. Tranquilization is exclusive to the Circle, however it is intended as a release or as a punishment, and what happened in Kirkwall was illegal.

Let's remember one critical point - the mages CAN'T leave the circle.  Their tormentors are their jailors!  This isn't being perpetrated by common street thugs.  Neighborhoods can't band together and get rid of them.  The mages can't run to the city guard and get assigned a patrol.  We've been given reason to believe that even complaining about their abuse can get them Tranquiled.  They aren't even allowed basic family contact for emotional support.  In that situation, I'd go mad.

So how exactly is that safer than being out in the city proper?

Edit:  Fixed my grammar

Modifié par GavrielKay, 05 mai 2011 - 05:45 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Fade22 wrote...

Siding with Meredith does not mean you kill innocent mages... I found it difficult as well but side with the Templers and see what happens... you're not neccesarily siding on the "evil" side.

Yes it does.  If you side with Meredith, then you are siding with the Right of Annulment which includes the slaughter of all mage children in the tower most of whom are innocent.  Bioware doesn't show this and wants us to overlook it, but it's very definately the case.

-Polaris

What of the three mages that Hawke and Cullen can convince the Templars to spare after the first fight inside the tower? 

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

1- Do not mix everything. Blood magic can be already seen as something dangerous and evil, even if useful. Blood magic IS FORBIDDEN, that 'all and I agree with this law.

Blood magic is seen as evil by the Chantry, who also see mages as cursed. It's because of blood magic that we have the order of the Grey Wardens, who spend their lives protecting the people of Thedas against the darkspawn and give their souls to put an end to the Archdemons. Without the Wardens, the Blights would never come to an end, and without blood magic, this wouldn't be possible.

Also, blood magic isn't forbidden by the Grey Wardens, as The Warden makes clear in Warden's Keep when speaking with Levi Dryden.

Sylvianus wrote...

2- Being on the side of the Templars is totally justifiable, given the harshness of the situation, the resolution impossible, and the threat of a large portion of the Magi, whether you like it or not. Yes there are innocents, but also many hidden dangerous mages. [i]Remember,  Orsino intercepts a letter of conspirators inside the circle and sent us to investigate. We  surprised  and killed them, but it is certainly a portion of a whole. 

What's justified in murdering countless men, women, and children for something they had nothing to do with? And you seem to be referencing "Best Served Cold," where Hawke murders most (if not all) of the renegade templars and mages working with Ser Thrask and Grace.

Sylvianus wrote...

Everything has simply exploded. I don't support anyone, I must chose a side in a horrible conflict that reached its climax.

Which is the decision between helping Meredith commit genocide against an entire population of mages who are innocent of what Anders did, or helping protect the mages against the templars who are tasked with murdering them in the Right of Annulment.

Sylvianus wrote...

3-  It's not Meredith who has declared war and attacked THE PEOPLE AND CIVILIANS, the high pretress among the victims. Anders has caused a special situation, Meredith was upset, but ultimately it does not mean she has not been right. We saw that with Leliana that Chantry was already considering action against Kirkwall.

Meredith may be able to legally order the genocide of the mages according to Chantry law, but that doesn't mean Meredith is right in condemning enchanters, mages, and apprentices to death for an act they had nothing to do with.

Sylvianus wrote...

4- Sometimes you can not always follow the procedure and bureaucracy, on the ground, it sometimes requires going beyond that. And I agree with that when events can exceed the reason and cause a systemic crisis that gets out of control. Do not act when needed, doing nothing can be more fatal that act.

Which is why Hawke can act to protect the mages against senseless slaughter.

Sylvianus wrote...

5-  Yes we agree that mages must be better treated, but no we desagree, Kirkwall area is completely rotten, abominations and blood mages are everywhere, and you refuse to admit that despite the experience of the game that shows very clearly what undeniable fact.

You seem to be condemning the entire Circle of Kirkwall when Hawke's encounters with the few he meets is extremely limited. Most of the mages encountered outside of the Gallows are apostates who have no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall.

Sylvianus wrote...

6- And the fact that you said that ALL the Templars are bad, or this organization is BAD but there is only a very small minority of mage who are evil  ( despite the experience of the game that shows very clearly  the contrary) don't give me any desire to be convinced, and  follow  your thought . Because, I see nothing but a denial and blindness biased.

All the templars aren't bad, but it's not factually accurate to claim all the Circle mages are evil when we hardly meet any of them. How many mages are in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches? The Gallows had been designed to accomodate thousands, after all.

[Killjoy Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bolluxs. Cullen needed all of three seconds (if that!) to rescind the Right of Annulment. DG has stated that Cullen had the legal right once he relieved Meredith of command (for the same reason Meredith did). He never did.

Also, there is not ONE mention of surviving mages if you side with the Templars. There is if you side with the mages. That alone makes if very clear that Cullen never rescinded the Right of Annulment and killed (or tranquilled) all mages.

Just accept genocide when you see it, m'kay?

-Polaris

You're extrapolating a lot from a little. 

As I mentioned, there is a scene after you first enter the tower and have that first fight, where three mages throw themselves on your mercy and Cullen sides with Hawke if you argue that they should be spared.  He also argues in favor of arresting, not killing, Hawke, after either version, even if Hawke is a mage. 

Clearly, Cullen is not in favor of killing every last mage. 

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There most likely are measures in the Circle to prevent the misuse of mages,

I doubt it. The end of Act 2 shows us that rape victims have very little recourse, at least in Kirkwall. Aveline, who is by all accounts a very "lawful good" woman cares more about getting her perp than finding the rapist in her own ranks abusing his authority as a city guard.

however, much like in prisons, the Templars (and even other mages for that matter), can intimidate their victims to silence. Which is very much like what happens in some prisons.

The thing is, the Circle isn't supposed to be a prison, it is, (at least officially) a school. Prisons are full of criminals, rape is (unfortunately) expected. That should not be the case with the Circle.

If Alain never reported it, how can you blame the Circle for not doing aynthing, they didn't even know! The Circle and the Templars can't react to a crime unless the crime is reported. Poor Alain did not report it (under threat of death from Kerras I believe), what was the Templars and Circle supposed to do?

Rape is a horrifically common occurence in the Kirkwall Circle, regardless of whetehr or not it's reported, the only way Cullen or Meredith could be unaware would be if they were shockingly incompetent. Thrask must have some idea of what's going on, since he goes to such lengths to help free the mages in Act 3, and possibly Keran too. 

Honestly, anyone who knows anything about human nature knows that the environment of the Circle is perfectly designed to engender a culture of rape and abuse. The Chantry seeks out impressionable zealots, teaches them that a particular group of people is less-than human and should be hated and feared, and then it gives them ultimate power of life and death over that same group of people! To say that they are ignorant of the sexual abuse is ridiculous. If anything, they expect sexual abuse to occur, they just don't give a ****.

As to what they're supposed to do: schools and workplaces in our society have people whose entire job is to provide counsel and legal aid in the event that an individual is sexually harrassed/abused. The Circle has no such system. Alain can't report the abuse because there is no one of any authority looking out for his interests.