4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Finally, your point of view is not different from mine.  You justify the elimination of a whole, because you feel like some threatening indirectly.

What bothers you like others is that's  the Magi who are the victims. But when they kill innocent people,  ( that you don't consider like innocent  ) who can considered indirect threat or a symbol, it doesn't bother you. I also say that mages are not innocent people in the circle, many are corrupted and dangerous.
 
I wanted to removed all mages because I've seen them as a direct or indirect threat in this horrible situation like you.

That's exactly what I was saying since the beginning, there is no moral camps. It is according to the considerations of each, there are no really innocents, only victims, we're at war.

You talk about genocide, evil, but you should read your own remarks about the Templars, they are as extreme as the decision to obliterate the whole circle.

This is not a blame, on the contrary, but it really proves that morality has nothing to do with that, we must get their hands dirty in both camps. Everyone chooses his path.

Huh?  I never said that blowing up the Chantry was right or that Anders should have done it. I said your outrage at the Mothers' deaths as "innocents" was misplaced.  The Chantry is the propaganda arm of a militant religion.  They control an army and had the authority to stop what was happening to the mages in the Kirkwall circle. 

Elthina did nothing but wave her hands and hope that somehow, despite being mortal enemies, Meredith and Orsino would play nice and nothing would happen.

Meredith has horrible attrocities going on under her nose.  Either she knew and didn't stop it, or didn't know and was incompetent.  She believed in guilty unless proven innocent and treated her charges that way.

I truly believe, to my core, that treating people the way the mages of Kirkwall were treated is horribly and irredeemably wrong.  Human rights violations on that scale are impossible to excuse.  It is as impossible for me to blame those mages for trying to free themselves by whatever means were available as it seems to be for you to have sympathy for their plight.  They are NOT guilty in the same way a beaten and starved dog is not guilty when it finally bites its abuser.  And if I can't blame the ones who use blood magic or succumb to demons, I certainly can't blame the ones who somehow survived their abuse and held strong - however many or few they are.

So, I will never believe that storming the Gallows and killing every mage in it is "right."  I can understand arguments that it is expedient, or somehow results in less total loss of life than the alternative, but not that it is right.

Yes She does nothing and ? Therefore must be killed ?

We must kill all priests and all the sisters ? All believers within the churches ?

All defenseless people who are part of the chantry that was strictly neutral yet ? Yes the chantry of Kirkwall was neutral, anders attacked it for symbol. These people were not a threat, they were simply objects, useful objects and in the same time insignificant to his cause.

No sorry, the reaction is appropriate. You justify the murder of innocent victims, but we are at war, I can uderstand like I said.

Otherwise, I think we never understand when I read the rest of your post. ^ ^

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[TobiTobsen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You can get raped in the world aswell, rape is not exclusive to the Circles. You can get stabbed in the back in the world, stabs in the back is not exclusive to the Circle. Tranquilization is exclusive to the Circle, however it is intended as a release or as a punishment, and what happened in Kirkwall was illegal.

Let's remember one critical point - the mages CAN'T leave the circle.  Their tormentors are their jailors!  This isn't being perpetrated by common street thugs.  Neighborhoods can't band together and get rid of them.  The mages can't run to the city guard and get assigned a patrol.  We've been given reason to believe that even complaining about their abuse can get them Tranquiled.  They aren't even allowed basic family contact for emotional support.  In that situation, I'd go mad.

So how exactly is that safer than being out in the city proper?

Edit:  Fixed my grammar

The main problem is the fact that the Seekers seem to be incompetent fools. They are there to watch the watchmen. Meredith and her army of loonies should have been dealed with a long time time ago.

But don't worry! It took only ten years till the devision for internal afairs in the chantry noticed that Merredith was mad all along!
Getting a Seeker to investigate your complain is like getting a Trabant, back in the days of the GDR. Make an order and wait ten years. Then they'll send you one eventually.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 05 mai 2011 - 06:05 .

[LobselVith8]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fade22 wrote...

Siding with Meredith does not mean you kill innocent mages... I found it difficult as well but side with the Templers and see what happens... you're not neccesarily siding on the "evil" side.

Yes it does.  If you side with Meredith, then you are siding with the Right of Annulment which includes the slaughter of all mage children in the tower most of whom are innocent.  Bioware doesn't show this and wants us to overlook it, but it's very definately the case.

-Polaris

What of the three mages that Hawke and Cullen can convince the Templars to spare after the first fight inside the tower? 

The three mages may be made tranquil:

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

Given that this particular Right of Annulment inspire all the Circles of Magi to break free from the Chantry and the templars, it had to be as bad (if not worse) than the several prior Rights of Annulment to provoke such a response from the Circle mages across the continent.

[Killjoy Cutter]

First, Bioware seems to have conflated blood magic with demonology in DA2, after treating them as seperate things in DA:O.  Being a blood mage does not automatically mean that you have anything to do with demons, and a mage can become an abomination or summon a demon without ever working the tiniest bit of blood magic.

Second, it is clear that the Circles and the Templars are engaged in a vicious cycle everywhere outside the Tvinter Imperium, with things being far worse in Kirkwall than elsewhere.  Each side's wrongs push the other to commit more of their own wrongs.  Who started what when is not important, that neither side seems entirely willing to take the log out of its own eye and clean its own house IS important.  (Not to say that the Tvinter situation is better, just bad in a different way.)

Third, DA2 Anders was an idiot and fool. 

Foruth, Meridith was an extremist and bigot even before the lyrium idol, just as Bartrand was an abusive jackass even before the lyrium idol. 

Fifth, Orsino was a counter-productive coward and fool. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 05 mai 2011 - 06:03 .

[GavrielKay]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What of the three mages that Hawke and Cullen can convince the Templars to spare after the first fight inside the tower? 

As the game just cuts out after Meredith dies, there's no way to know what happens to them.  It's been suggested that they will be Tranquiled.  I'm of the opinion that there are at least hundreds of mages in the circle, so I don't get much relief on my conscience for possibly saving 3. 

I also find it a bit dishonest of the devs to not include any cutscenes or gameplay around murdering novices, apprentices and elderly mages.  The RoA isn't portrayed according to its definition in my opinion.  First because you are seemingly allowed to spare a few mages, and second because there's no in-game evidence presented that it actually happens.  You can hand waive and tell yourself that Cullen called it all off after Meredith's death.  I don't believe we're actually meant to think that, but there's already been posters who claim to so it is open to interpretation.

It pretty much allows you to make the hard-line choice in the game and not suffer for it.

[Plaintiff]

Sylvianus wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Finally, your point of view is not different from mine.  You justify the elimination of a whole, because you feel like some threatening indirectly.

What bothers you like others is that's  the Magi who are the victims. But when they kill innocent people,  ( that you don't consider like innocent  ) who can considered indirect threat or a symbol, it doesn't bother you. I also say that mages are not innocent people in the circle, many are corrupted and dangerous.
 
I wanted to removed all mages because I've seen them as a direct or indirect threat in this horrible situation like you.

That's exactly what I was saying since the beginning, there is no moral camps. It is according to the considerations of each, there are no really innocents, only victims, we're at war.

You talk about genocide, evil, but you should read your own remarks about the Templars, they are as extreme as the decision to obliterate the whole circle.

This is not a blame, on the contrary, but it really proves that morality has nothing to do with that, we must get their hands dirty in both camps. Everyone chooses his path.

Huh?  I never said that blowing up the Chantry was right or that Anders should have done it. I said your outrage at the Mothers' deaths as "innocents" was misplaced.  The Chantry is the propaganda arm of a militant religion.  They control an army and had the authority to stop what was happening to the mages in the Kirkwall circle. 

Elthina did nothing but wave her hands and hope that somehow, despite being mortal enemies, Meredith and Orsino would play nice and nothing would happen.

Meredith has horrible attrocities going on under her nose.  Either she knew and didn't stop it, or didn't know and was incompetent.  She believed in guilty unless proven innocent and treated her charges that way.

I truly believe, to my core, that treating people the way the mages of Kirkwall were treated is horribly and irredeemably wrong.  Human rights violations on that scale are impossible to excuse.  It is as impossible for me to blame those mages for trying to free themselves by whatever means were available as it seems to be for you to have sympathy for their plight.  They are NOT guilty in the same way a beaten and starved dog is not guilty when it finally bites its abuser.  And if I can't blame the ones who use blood magic or succumb to demons, I certainly can't blame the ones who somehow survived their abuse and held strong - however many or few they are.

So, I will never believe that storming the Gallows and killing every mage in it is "right."  I can understand arguments that it is expedient, or somehow results in less total loss of life than the alternative, but not that it is right.

Yes She does nothing and ? Therefore must be killed ?

We must kill all priests and all the sisters ? All believers within the churches ?

All defenseless people who are part of the chantry that was strictly neutral yet ? Yes the chantry of Kirkwall was neutral, anders attacked it for symbol. These people were not a threat, they were simply objects, useful objects and in the same time insignificant to his cause.

No sorry, the reaction is appropriate. You justify the murder of innocent victims, but we are at war, I can uderstand like I said.

Otherwise, I think we never understand when I read the rest of your post. ^ ^

The Chantry isn't neutral in any sense of the word, it controls the Templars. It preaches against all magic and all mages. It supports locking them up. Elthina's claim of neutrality is at best moronic and at worst a downright lie.

Elthina isn't neutral, she supports the status quo. She wants things to stay as they are, she wants mages to continue to be oppressed. She says she can't help them. She is lying. She has authority over Meredith, she can depose her as Knight-Commander and appoint someone else. She can order an investigation into the abuses occuring within the Circle. She has the power to substantially improve the lot of the mages under her care. She chooses to do nothing.

Elthina isn't allowed to be neutral, as Grand Cleric her job is to uphold Chantry Law, which Meredith has broken more than once by forcing Tranquility on mages illegally. She has a responsibility to the mages in the Gallows and she ignores it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

GavrielKay wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What of the three mages that Hawke and Cullen can convince the Templars to spare after the first fight inside the tower? 

As the game just cuts out after Meredith dies, there's no way to know what happens to them.  It's been suggested that they will be Tranquiled.  I'm of the opinion that there are at least hundreds of mages in the circle, so I don't get much relief on my conscience for possibly saving 3. 

I also find it a bit dishonest of the devs to not include any cutscenes or gameplay around murdering novices, apprentices and elderly mages.  The RoA isn't portrayed according to its definition in my opinion.  First because you are seemingly allowed to spare a few mages, and second because there's no in-game evidence presented that it actually happens.  You can hand waive and tell yourself that Cullen called it all off after Meredith's death.  I don't believe we're actually meant to think that, but there's already been posters who claim to so it is open to interpretation.

It pretty much allows you to make the hard-line choice in the game and not suffer for it.

Well, I'm not going to argue that you're demonstrably wrong, as it's left unclear and neither side has a lot to stand on, in trying to claim a solid in-game footing for their position.  The only thing we really have solid in-game evidence for is that Cullen doesn't want to slaughter the mages to the last.  Whether he did or not is open to interpretation.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Finally, your point of view is not different from mine.  You justify the elimination of a whole, because you feel like some threatening indirectly.

What bothers you like others is that's  the Magi who are the victims. But when they kill innocent people,  ( that you don't consider like innocent  ) who can considered indirect threat or a symbol, it doesn't bother you. I also say that mages are not innocent people in the circle, many are corrupted and dangerous.
 
I wanted to removed all mages because I've seen them as a direct or indirect threat in this horrible situation like you.

That's exactly what I was saying since the beginning, there is no moral camps. It is according to the considerations of each, there are no really innocents, only victims, we're at war.

You talk about genocide, evil, but you should read your own remarks about the Templars, they are as extreme as the decision to obliterate the whole circle.

This is not a blame, on the contrary, but it really proves that morality has nothing to do with that, we must get their hands dirty in both camps. Everyone chooses his path.

Huh?  I never said that blowing up the Chantry was right or that Anders should have done it. I said your outrage at the Mothers' deaths as "innocents" was misplaced.  The Chantry is the propaganda arm of a militant religion.  They control an army and had the authority to stop what was happening to the mages in the Kirkwall circle. 

Elthina did nothing but wave her hands and hope that somehow, despite being mortal enemies, Meredith and Orsino would play nice and nothing would happen.

Meredith has horrible attrocities going on under her nose.  Either she knew and didn't stop it, or didn't know and was incompetent.  She believed in guilty unless proven innocent and treated her charges that way.

I truly believe, to my core, that treating people the way the mages of Kirkwall were treated is horribly and irredeemably wrong.  Human rights violations on that scale are impossible to excuse.  It is as impossible for me to blame those mages for trying to free themselves by whatever means were available as it seems to be for you to have sympathy for their plight.  They are NOT guilty in the same way a beaten and starved dog is not guilty when it finally bites its abuser.  And if I can't blame the ones who use blood magic or succumb to demons, I certainly can't blame the ones who somehow survived their abuse and held strong - however many or few they are.

So, I will never believe that storming the Gallows and killing every mage in it is "right."  I can understand arguments that it is expedient, or somehow results in less total loss of life than the alternative, but not that it is right.

Yes She does nothing and ? Therefore must be killed ?

We must kill all priests and all the sisters ? All believers within the churches ?

All defenseless people who are part of the chantry that was strictly neutral yet ? Yes the chantry of Kirkwall was neutral, anders attacked it for symbol. These people were not a threat, they were simply objects, useful objects and in the same time insignificant to his cause.

No sorry, the reaction is appropriate. You justify the murder of innocent victims, but we are at war, I can uderstand like I said.

Otherwise, I think we never understand when I read the rest of your post. ^ ^

The Chantry isn't neutral in any sense of the word, it controls the Templars. It preaches against all magic and all mages. It supports locking them up. Elthina's claim of neutrality is at best moronic and at worst a downright lie.

Elthina isn't neutral, she supports the status quo. She wants things to stay as they are, she wants mages to continue to be oppressed. She says she can't help them. She is lying. She has authority over Meredith, she can depose her as Knight-Commander and appoint someone else. She can order an investigation into the abuses occuring within the Circle. She has the power to substantially improve the lot of the mages under her care. She chooses to do nothing.

Elthina isn't allowed to be neutral, as Grand Cleric her job is to uphold Chantry Law, which Meredith has broken more than once by forcing Tranquility on mages illegally. She has a responsibility to the mages in the Gallows and she ignores it.

Elthina is definitely part of the problem, and could have replaced Meredith and Orsino both, and ordered a full inquiry.  That she didn't order an inquiry in Act2 when Alrik's attrocities were uncovered is pretty damning. 

(I don't think that makes blowing up the Chantry, setting swath of Kirkwall on fire in the process, killing everyone inside and many near the place, and unleashing chaos on Kirkwall, was any better than what Alrik was doing, however.) 

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Mexico is full of cartel, drug addicts, should we allow the legalization of drug trafficking? 

Why yes of course! Drugs, cartel running and addicts aren't bad by nature, it must be legalized! NAOW!!

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

All defenseless people who are part of the chantry that was strictly neutral yet ? Yes the chantry of Kirkwall was neutral, anders attacked it for symbol. These people were not a threat, they were simply objects, useful objects and in the same time insignificant to his cause.

The Chantry and particularly Grand Cleric Elthina are the only ones with actual authority over Meredith in the city.  When you have sole authority to correct an outrage and don't, you are neither neutral nor innocent.

I'm honestly not sure what I think Anders should have done.  I believe like he did that allowing things to continue at the absolutely wretched status quo was NOT an option.  Perhaps assassinating Meredith or Karras (were he even still alive) would have served just as well to kick off the war he needed, I don't know.  Desperation makes people do things they would otherwise never dream of.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The war Anders wanted wasn't a solution, it was just a different problem.

[Rifneno]

The main problem is the fact that the Seekers seem to be incompetent fools. They are there to watch the watchmen. Meredith and her army of loonies should have been dealed with a long time time ago.

But don't worry! It took only ten years till the devision for internal afairs in the chantry noticed that Merredith was mad all along!
Getting a Seeker to investigate your complain is like getting a Trabant, back in the days of the GDR. Make an order and wait ten years. Then they'll send you one eventually.

And the hilarious part is, when a seeker finally does show up, she blames the mages!  I was a big fan of Leliana in DAO, 10 seconds after she opened her mouth in DA2 I was looking for the dialogue tree that had a combat icon.

[Plaintiff]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Elthina is definitely part of the problem, and could have replaced Meredith and Orsino both, and ordered a full inquiry.  That she didn't order an inquiry in Act2 when Alrik's attrocities were uncovered is pretty damning. 

(I don't think that makes blowing up the Chantry, setting swath of Kirkwall on fire in the process, killing everyone inside and many near the place, and unleashing chaos on Kirkwall, was any better than what Alrik was doing, however.) 

Well Alrik is abusing a position of power so he can rape people without consequence. I don't advocate the blowing up of buildings in general. I think Elthina deserved to die, definitely, and I consider the Chantry a throbbing cancer on the face of Thedas that needs to be excised.

I defend Ander's actions, not because he holds moral superiority, but because violence is the only recourse mages have. Peaceful protest and poltiical lobbies are not and never were a viable option for them. I think it's also important to note that Anders resorts to violence only after years of trying to make himself heard in a non-violent, extremely risky way.

[Sylvianus]

You seem to be condemning the entire Circle of Kirkwall when Hawke's encounters with the few he meets is extremely limited. Most of the mages encountered outside of the Gallows are apostates who have no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall.

I do not condemn an entire circle, but the game shows us very clearly that there is something wrong in Kirkwall,  It is not inconceivable that many has become dangerous with many indications.

- Anders leads a resistance to Kirkwall. So capacity for harm in the city, a spider web.

- conspirators within the circle. So, Indication that the circle is compromised, corrupted,

All mages become abominations. So loss of confidence in the ability of mages to control themself and not threath Kirkwall.

- Grace that I saved. and she remove my sister to thank me... She became like the blood mage that infuenced her many years ago. She became herself a blood mage and while I've saved her and yet she became completely incoherent, transformed. So new event that mages get crazy.

- The veil acts.

- Orsino losing control. A firstenchanter who has lost control of his circle, has definitely failed in its duty and it is scary.

- My mother killed by the mage assassin protected by Orsino.

- the Chantry, the High Priestess that I loved, and all those people killed by a mage in whom I trust.

All this shows that it becomes a great mess with mages in Kirkwall, and it couldn't continue. It is not a question of a circle, but it's just mages inside and outside the circle.

It becomes difficult not to believe that Kirkwall is cursed, a horrible place.

And I have not mentioned everything that bug me.

The mages who goes mad and killed elves, and is protected by his father, , or blood mages purchased by Cullen, it also bothered me a lot.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[Plaintiff]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The war Anders wanted wasn't a solution, it was just a different problem.

Sometimes that's what it takes. There is no compromise, not really. The Chantry doesn't want or need a compromise. It has all the power and the mages have none. The only way to reacha  real compromise, a real solution, is if the mages wrest control from the Chantry, and there was no way that was going to happen without a fight.

Sometimes, war is a necessity. And while Anders may've struck the first blow in this instance, history shows us that peacful negotiation is not the Chantry's idea of conflict resolution.

[LobselVith8]

GavrielKay wrote...

The Chantry and particularly Grand Cleric Elthina are the only ones with actual authority over Meredith in the city. 

This is correct. Grand Cleric Elthina is Meredith's superior. This is made clear in Grand Cleric Elthina's codex:

"Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known."

Elthina's inaction on Meredith becoming the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall (in essence, the dictator over the entire population of the city-state) and doing nothing about the plight of mages makes her culpable when it's within her authority to put a stop to it and she does nothing. In fact, according to the Chantry Hierarchy:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region. They travel to Val Royeaux when the College of Clerics convenes, but otherwise remain where they are assigned. All grand clerics are addressed as 'Your Grace'."

Grand Cleric Elthina is second only to the Divine, which makes her the highest ranking Chantry official in Kirkwall.

[Wulfram]

The actual extent of Elthina's authority over the Templars is revealed by them quitting the chantry pretty soon after the end of the game.

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

I do not condemn an entire circle, but the game shows us very clearly that there is something wrong in Kirkwall,  It is not inconceivable that many has become dangerous with many indications.

But you do.  That's exactly what the Right of Annulment is.  A condemnation that every man, woman and child within the circle must be considered compromised and not a single one can be spared.

When an abused dog bites you, you look at the owner and ask why he abused an innocent animal.  When an entire circle of mages lives in fear for their bodies and lives, you should look at the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and ask why the mages are being abused.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Mexico is full of cartel, drug addicts, should we allow the legalization of drug trafficking? 

Why yes of course! Drugs, cartel running and addicts aren't bad by nature, it must be legalized! NAOW!!

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Neither the Grey Warden ritual nor the spell Finn casts is blood magic. It is in the grey area where blood is used as a component, not the powersource. It is in the grey area where many Templars probably wouldn't care to see the difference, but it is there.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to be condemning the entire Circle of Kirkwall when Hawke's encounters with the few he meets is extremely limited. Most of the mages encountered outside of the Gallows are apostates who have no known affiliation with the Circle of Kirkwall. [/quote]

I do not condemn an entire circle, but the game shows us very clearly that there is something wrong in Kirkwall,  It is not inconceivable that many has become dangerous with many indications.

- Anders leads a resistance to Kirkwall. So capacity for harm in the city, a spider web. [/quote]

The issue is that whether you think he's right or wrong, he's a known apostate who is protected by the Champion's reputation, as Meredith makes clear in "On the Loose."

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

- conspirators within the circle. So, Indication that the circle is compromised, corrupted, [/quote]

You left out the fact that the conspirators are working with renegade templars to oust a dictator from power.

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

All mages become abominations. So loss of confidence in the ability of mages to control themself and not threath Kirkwall. [/quote]

I don't recall apostate Hawke, Bethany, Merrill, Emile, Ella, Terrie, Alain, or a number of other mages turning into abominations.

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

- Grace that I saved. and she remove my sister. She became like the blood mage that inlfuenced her many years ago. She became herself a blood mage and while I've saved her and yet she became completely incoherent, transformed. So new event that mages get crazy. [/quote]

Grace is insane and stupid, I don't think anyone contests this. However, she's one mage who had apostates (who are labelled apostates in the final scene) attacking Hawke while Alain and a few Circle mages cowered.

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

- Orsino losing control. A firstenchanter who has lost control of his circle, has definitely failed in its duty and it is scary. [/quote]

So is a Knight-Commander losing her mind and ordering the deaths of an entire population of people who are innocent of what Anders did.

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

- My mother killed by the assassin protected by Orsino. [/quote]

You mean an apostate? Tell me again why we should condemn the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle for the actions of an insane maleficar?

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

- the Chantry, the High Priestess that I loved, and all those people killed by a mage in whom I trust. [/quote]

You mean an apostate, an abomination who isn't a member of the Kirkwall Circle?

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

All this shows that it becomes a great mess with mages in Kirkwall, and it couldn't continue. It is not a question of a circle, but it's just mages inside and outside the circle. [/quote]

Our encounters with Circle mages is relatively small in comparison to the many mages we never actually meet. There are a multitude of enchanters, mages, and apprentices who Hawke has never met, so should the Champion  willing to condemn them based on suspicions alone?

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

It becomes difficult not to believe that Kirkwall is cursed, a horrible place. [/quote]

It's a hellmouth, to be certain. However, mages like Ella, Emile, and Bethany don't succumb to becoming abominations.

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

And I have not mentioned everything that bug me.

The mages who goes mad and killed elves, and is protected by his father, , or blood mages purchased by Cullen, it also bothered me a lot. [/quote]

No, the Magistrate's son is not a mage. Kelder was kicked out of the Gallows because he had no magical ability and didn't actually hear demons, he was simply insane. And Cullen is the same person who has no problem with arresting Bethany and threatening Hawke even when Hawke saved his life from a possessed templar, and then he says mages shouldn't be treated like people and are weapons.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Plaintiff wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Elthina is definitely part of the problem, and could have replaced Meredith and Orsino both, and ordered a full inquiry.  That she didn't order an inquiry in Act2 when Alrik's attrocities were uncovered is pretty damning. 

(I don't think that makes blowing up the Chantry, setting swath of Kirkwall on fire in the process, killing everyone inside and many near the place, and unleashing chaos on Kirkwall, was any better than what Alrik was doing, however.) 

Well Alrik is abusing a position of power so he can rape people without consequence. I don't advocate the blowing up of buildings in general. I think Elthina deserved to die, definitely, and I consider the Chantry a throbbing cancer on the face of Thedas that needs to be excised.

I defend Ander's actions, not because he holds moral superiority, but because violence is the only recourse mages have. Peaceful protest and poltiical lobbies are not and never were a viable option for them. I think it's also important to note that Anders resorts to violence only after years of trying to make himself heard in a non-violent, extremely risky way.

It's not clear that the Circles are as bad as Kirkwall anywhere else in Thedas -- the mage origin and broken circle quest in DA:O certainly don't indicate abusive, vile Templars.  The Knight Commander in Origins is relieved when he doesn't have to Annul the Circle of Ferelden

This is one of those issues that seems to have been quietly changed between DA:O and DA2.  However, it could also be that Anders is distorting the truth because of his obession and persecution complex. 

Don't get me wrong, things are clearly broken and wrong in Kirkwall, on both sides. 


The war, however, just ends up with the rest of the world caught in the middle, and good Templars and good Mages trapped in a war they might not even want, when they aren't even the problem. 

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

The actual extent of Elthina's authority over the Templars is revealed by them quitting the chantry pretty soon after the end of the game.

A mutiny does not mean that the captain never had authority.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Neither the Grey Warden ritual nor the spell Finn casts is blood magic. It is in the grey area where blood is used as a component, not the powersource. It is in the grey area where many Templars probably wouldn't care to see the difference, but it is there.

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic, but you don't personally consider this blood magic? And Finn asked The Warden not to tell anyone (i.e. the templars) because they would consider it magic. Even Gaider said at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic.

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

The actual extent of Elthina's authority over the Templars is revealed by them quitting the chantry pretty soon after the end of the game.

No it isn't.

First of all,  Elthina is dead, and the templars are splitting from the Chantry in general, which means the Divine is the one who has failed to keep control in this instance, not Elthina.

Secondly, The frame narrative is taking place three years after the events of Act 3. Nobody knows how long it took for the templars to split or what specifically prompted them to do so.

Thirdly, when Elthina was alive, there were several templars within the Kirkwall chapter who disliked Meredith's heavy-handedness and were actively working against her. In the event that Meredith would try to rally the templars to attack the Chantry, there would be plenty who would not support her.

Fourth, if Meredith were to attempt such a thing, she only controls the Kirkwall templars, not any other group. If she were to launch some sort of attack on the Kirkwall Chantry she would not only expose her insanity, she would undoubtedly face retribution from the Divine and the Knight-Vigilante, the ultimate authorities over all Templars in Thedas.

[GavrielKay]

I believe the early Act 3 response to the situation in Kirkwall should have been:

1) Elthina deposes Meredith and appoints a new Knight Commander who isn't a bigoted zealot

2) That Knight Commander behaves as Gregoire did in Origins. Treating the mages as his responsibility, not his prisoners.

Once we were past the point where that could happen, Meredith's response should have been: contain the circle and take any option offered that might save the innocents. Gregoire allowed the Warden to volunteer to wipe out the abominations and save those who could be saved. The Right of Annulment is a last resort when there is absolutely no hope that any mages at all can be saved. It's not something to do in anger, or to appease a violent mob, not because there are conspiracies or escapees, not just because you can't be bothered to determine how many mages are affected. Last Resort. Period.

I'm sure Hawke would offer to cleanse the circle and save those who could be saved. But Meredith either due to her own zealotry or the influence of the idol wants nothing of that. That she can make even Cullen look reasonable is quite telling.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 05 mai 2011 - 06:57 .