4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I do not condemn an entire circle, but the game shows us very clearly that there is something wrong in Kirkwall,  It is not inconceivable that many has become dangerous with many indications.

But you do.  That's exactly what the Right of Annulment is.  A condemnation that every man, woman and child within the circle must be considered compromised and not a single one can be spared.

When an abused dog bites you, you look at the owner and ask why he abused an innocent animal.  When an entire circle of mages lives in fear for their bodies and lives, you should look at the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and ask why the mages are being abused.

We don't know if Cullen follows through with the Rite of  Annulment or not. 

The problem in Kirkwall is that both sides have their members in the wrong, and those wrongs push more on the other side to commit their own wrongs.  There are abusive Templars and mages misusing magic. 

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The actual extent of Elthina's authority over the Templars is revealed by them quitting the chantry pretty soon after the end of the game.

A mutiny does not mean that the captain never had authority.

The whole of the Templar order in Thedas was on the brink of rebellion.  Are you really suggesting that the Kirkwall templars - perhaps the most powerful and rabidly anti-mage of the lot - would have tamely accepted the Grand Cleric interfering with their duty to protect the world from the mages?

[Sylvianus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I do not condemn an entire circle, but the game shows us very clearly that there is something wrong in Kirkwall,  It is not inconceivable that many has become dangerous with many indications.

But you do.  That's exactly what the Right of Annulment is.  A condemnation that every man, woman and child within the circle must be considered compromised and not a single one can be spared.

When an abused dog bites you, you look at the owner and ask why he abused an innocent animal.  When an entire circle of mages lives in fear for their bodies and lives, you should look at the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and ask why the mages are being abused.

When I say I do not condemn, it meant that I didn't take the decision  without evidences. But you're right. I hadn't any choice, it was the situation.

I kill them all, in fact, because it's enough to think they represent a threat to security in Kirkwall. Surely there were many innocents, but I do not think they really represent the majority.

It's too late for that, that's the problem. My primary concern is to protect my people. When a dog becomes enraged and threatens, no even attacked your child, you do not ask whether to blame the owner, you cut down the rabid dog. After you ask the dog's owner.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 07:02 .

[Plaintiff]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Elthina is definitely part of the problem, and could have replaced Meredith and Orsino both, and ordered a full inquiry.  That she didn't order an inquiry in Act2 when Alrik's attrocities were uncovered is pretty damning. 

(I don't think that makes blowing up the Chantry, setting swath of Kirkwall on fire in the process, killing everyone inside and many near the place, and unleashing chaos on Kirkwall, was any better than what Alrik was doing, however.) 

Well Alrik is abusing a position of power so he can rape people without consequence. I don't advocate the blowing up of buildings in general. I think Elthina deserved to die, definitely, and I consider the Chantry a throbbing cancer on the face of Thedas that needs to be excised.

I defend Ander's actions, not because he holds moral superiority, but because violence is the only recourse mages have. Peaceful protest and poltiical lobbies are not and never were a viable option for them. I think it's also important to note that Anders resorts to violence only after years of trying to make himself heard in a non-violent, extremely risky way.

It's not clear that the Circles are as bad as Kirkwall anywhere else in Thedas -- the mage origin and broken circle quest in DA:O certainly don't indicate abusive, vile Templars.  The Knight Commander in Origins is relieved when he doesn't have to Annul the Circle of Ferelden

This is one of those issues that seems to have been quietly changed between DA:O and DA2.  However, it could also be that Anders is distorting the truth because of his obession and persecution complex. 

Don't get me wrong, things are clearly broken and wrong in Kirkwall, on both sides. 


The war, however, just ends up with the rest of the world caught in the middle, and good Templars and good Mages trapped in a war they might not even want, when they aren't even the problem. 

I think it's pretty clear the mages do want the war. Remember that the situation in the Ferelden Circle is the result of a rebellion. Uldred didn't do it on his own, he had substantial support. The fact is, a substantial amount of mages aren't satisfied with the way things are. Abusive templars or not, they're under no illusions that their Circle is anything more than a gilded cage, and even in the Ferelden Circle, you hear of things that I would consider abuse even if they are not considered such under Chantry Law. Wynne having her child taken away is definitely one. The treatment of Aneirin is another.

I can't speak for other circles, but no matter what side Hawke joins, the Kirkwall Rebellion is an utter failure. Even if you side with the mages, they end up fleeing to other circles. But the news of their dismal failure doesn't discourage further attempts, it inspires the circles to rise up. They weren't "forced" into it, they did it willingly, they struck the first blow. There may well be mages who didn't want to get involved, but it would seem they are a minority.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Somehow, I think I end up missing conversations in these games... I don't recall any interactions that revealed that Alain had been raped, as others mention in this thread, or anything about Wynne having a child taken away from her.

(Nothing in Wynne's DA Wikia entry, either...)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 05 mai 2011 - 07:16 .

[GavrielKay]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The war, however, just ends up with the rest of the world caught in the middle, and good Templars and good Mages trapped in a war they might not even want, when they aren't even the problem. 

I know it sounds a bit harsh, and were it my backyard I might have a different opinion but I'll offer this for discussion:

Sometimes it isn't right for a general population to get to pretend that something awful isn't going on under their noses.  The circles are prisons where mages are kept.  If they're lucky, they're just confined and trained.  If they are unlucky, they are also abused, Tranquiled and driven to darkness.

This is supposedly done to protect this general population from the threat a mage represents.  When something is done in your name that greviously harms someone else, then you are in some small way responsible.  Not responsible to the extent of the Chantry and Templars which actively promote this situation, but it continues due to the complaicancy of the populace.

As far as I'm concerned the most innocent person in the whole game world is someone like Bethany.  She's raised well and trained to defend herself properly against demonic influence.  She learns to heal and love her family.  And yet she must live in constant fear of discovery.  She does absolutely nothing wrong and in fact is quite a force for good in ridding Kirkwall of thugs.  She is captured, subjected to who knows what, and finally killed by an insane bigot.  Meredith, believing utterly in her own righteousness (even pre-idol she has this belief) will stab Bethany in the back for nothing more than having been born a mage.

That is the travesty of the game.  If ordinary folks must be drawn into a war in order that mages can be seen by all as people who deserve the same human rights as everyone else - perhaps that's less of a tragedy than all the Bethany's who've been killed or worse over the last 1000 years.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Blood magic is used by the Chantry. Just what do people think a phylactery is? Using blood to track down mages? Seriously? 

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

It's too late for that, that's the problem. My primary concern is to protect my people. When a dog becomes enraged and threatens, no even attacked your child, you do not ask whether to blame the owner, you cut down the rabid dog. After you ask the dog's owner.

Too late for that is only the word of the insane Meredith.  That is not someone who's word I trust at that point in the game.

[Killjoy Cutter]

GavrielKay wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The war, however, just ends up with the rest of the world caught in the middle, and good Templars and good Mages trapped in a war they might not even want, when they aren't even the problem. 

I know it sounds a bit harsh, and were it my backyard I might have a different opinion but I'll offer this for discussion:

Sometimes it isn't right for a general population to get to pretend that something awful isn't going on under their noses.  The circles are prisons where mages are kept.  If they're lucky, they're just confined and trained.  If they are unlucky, they are also abused, Tranquiled and driven to darkness.

This is supposedly done to protect this general population from the threat a mage represents.  When something is done in your name that greviously harms someone else, then you are in some small way responsible.  Not responsible to the extent of the Chantry and Templars which actively promote this situation, but it continues due to the complaicancy of the populace.

As far as I'm concerned the most innocent person in the whole game world is someone like Bethany.  She's raised well and trained to defend herself properly against demonic influence.  She learns to heal and love her family.  And yet she must live in constant fear of discovery.  She does absolutely nothing wrong and in fact is quite a force for good in ridding Kirkwall of thugs.  She is captured, subjected to who knows what, and finally killed by an insane bigot.  Meredith, believing utterly in her own righteousness (even pre-idol she has this belief) will stab Bethany in the back for nothing more than having been born a mage.

That is the travesty of the game.  If ordinary folks must be drawn into a war in order that mages can be seen by all as people who deserve the same human rights as everyone else - perhaps that's less of a tragedy than all the Bethany's who've been killed or worse over the last 1000 years.

Mages are people too. 

However... that cuts both ways.  They're just as susceptible to all the faults of humanity as anyone else.  Some sort of specially trained force capable of dealing with mages when they go bad is an absolute necessity.  And some way to identify mages and train them to deal with the risks and responsibilitis their powers bring is an absolute necessity.  Bethany was born to a mage parent -- most mages aren't.  A mage born to a remote farming family needs something to turn to in order to not end up an outcast, an abomination, or whatever. 

Am I arguing for imprisoning all mages for life, in the way that the Circles are used to?  No, not at all.  In fact, I'd say that the Chantry and the Templars misread "magic is meant to serve man" to mean "mages should be servants to everyone else". 

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote..
I know it sounds a bit harsh, and were it my backyard I might have a different opinion but I'll offer this for discussion:

Sometimes it isn't right for a general population to get to pretend that something awful isn't going on under their noses.  The circles are prisons where mages are kept.  If they're lucky, they're just confined and trained.  If they are unlucky, they are also abused, Tranquiled and driven to darkness.

This is supposedly done to protect this general population from the threat a mage represents.  When something is done in your name that greviously harms someone else, then you are in some small way responsible.  Not responsible to the extent of the Chantry and Templars which actively promote this situation, but it continues due to the complaicancy of the populace.

How much does the population know? In Act I at the Gallows you hear that the people are against the templars, because of the plight of the mages. The people believe in freedom for the mages. This arguably changes in DA2 by Act III, but that's Anders doing. The nobles & people of Kirikwall do not want to support Meredith. The tragedy of DA2 is that Ander's insanity leads to the very chaos that could have been prevented without him.

That is the travesty of the game.  If ordinary folks must be drawn into a war in order that mages can be seen by all as people who deserve the same human rights as everyone else - perhaps that's less of a tragedy than all the Bethany's who've been killed or worse over the last 1000 years.

The thing is, with mages we get into what measure is a man. Mages arent like everyone else. They're basically demi-gods.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Neither the Grey Warden ritual nor the spell Finn casts is blood magic. It is in the grey area where blood is used as a component, not the powersource. It is in the grey area where many Templars probably wouldn't care to see the difference, but it is there.

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic, but you don't personally consider this blood magic? And Finn asked The Warden not to tell anyone (i.e. the templars) because they would consider it magic. Even Gaider said at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic.

It still isn't Blood Magic. For it to be actual Blood Magic, it would have to draw its power from lifeforce. The phylacteries, the Joinning, and Finn's spell, do not use blood as its power. It is merely a component.
But since blood is invovled in the spells, they could be viewed as blood magic, while technically not being blood magic, which is why Finn for instance asks the Warden not to tell anyone.

[GavrielKay]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Somehow, I think I end up missing conversations in these games... I don't recall any interactions that revealed that Alain had been raped, as others mention in this thread, or anything about Wynne having a child taken away from her.

(Nothing in Wynne's DA Wikia entry, either...)

I remember Wynne mentioning a child being taken away.  I can't remember if it's a PC initiated conversation or a party banter.  For some reason my memory of it includes Alistair's voice.

[Killjoy Cutter]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Blood magic is used by the Chantry. Just what do people think a phylactery is? Using blood to track down mages? Seriously? 

There's blood magic, as in magic that uses life as its power, that uses the connections of blood as a focus or link, or otherwise relates to blood. 

Then there's "blood magic", as in any "forbidden magic". 

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Neither the Grey Warden ritual nor the spell Finn casts is blood magic. It is in the grey area where blood is used as a component, not the powersource. It is in the grey area where many Templars probably wouldn't care to see the difference, but it is there.

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic, but you don't personally consider this blood magic? And Finn asked The Warden not to tell anyone (i.e. the templars) because they would consider it magic. Even Gaider said at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic.

It still isn't Blood Magic. For it to be actual Blood Magic, it would have to draw its power from lifeforce. The phylacteries, the Joinning, and Finn's spell, do not use blood as its power. It is merely a component.
But since blood is invovled in the spells, they could be viewed as blood magic, while technically not being blood magic, which is why Finn for instance asks the Warden not to tell anyone.

What is and is not "blood magic" changes between DA:O and DA2, and changes depending on which codex entry you're reading, and changes depending on which NPC you're talking to, and changes... 

Bioware can't make up their collective mind as to what blood magic is and is not.

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

How much does the population know? In Act I at the Gallows you hear that the people are against the templars, because of the plight of the mages. The people believe in freedom for the mages. This arguably changes in DA2 by Act III, but that's Anders doing. The nobles & people of Kirikwall do not want to support Meredith. The tragedy of DA2 is that Ander's insanity leads to the very chaos that could have been prevented without him.

I would think that everyone knows that the circles exist and that if they have a child who demonstrates magical ability that child will be taken away to be raised by the cirlce.

It's true that Anders likely stirred up hated against the mages.  After 1000 years of everyone allowing the circles to continue to exist - perhaps hatred isn't much worse than apathy to someone as desperate as Anders.

[Sylvianus]

How much does the population know? In Act I at the Gallows you hear that the people are against the templars, because of the plight of the mages. The people believe in freedom for the mages. This arguably changes in DA2 by Act III, but that's Anders doing. The nobles & people of Kirikwall do not want to support Meredith. The tragedy of DA2 is that Ander's insanity leads to the very chaos that could have been prevented without him.

Most people in Thedas are Believers. Orlais, Ferelden, Kirkwall, etc..
Anders cut mages of the people. Eltina was well liked in Kirkwall elsewhere.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 07:42 .

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

It's too late for that, that's the problem. My primary concern is to protect my people. When a dog becomes enraged and threatens, no even attacked your child, you do not ask whether to blame the owner, you cut down the rabid dog. After you ask the dog's owner.

Your people include the innocent mages.  Only Meredith tells you there no is other choice.  Even her fellow Templars doubt her.

[Killjoy Cutter]

GavrielKay wrote...

In Exile wrote...

How much does the population know? In Act I at the Gallows you hear that the people are against the templars, because of the plight of the mages. The people believe in freedom for the mages. This arguably changes in DA2 by Act III, but that's Anders doing. The nobles & people of Kirikwall do not want to support Meredith. The tragedy of DA2 is that Ander's insanity leads to the very chaos that could have been prevented without him.

I would think that everyone knows that the circles exist and that if they have a child who demonstrates magical ability that child will be taken away to be raised by the cirlce.

It's true that Anders likely stirred up hated against the mages.  After 1000 years of everyone allowing the circles to continue to exist - perhaps hatred isn't much worse than apathy to someone as desperate as Anders.

It's not like the everyday people of Thedas have a lot of power to change things.  There are no democracies in Thedas as far as I've read.  In Kirkwall, we're told that the common people have a lot of sympathy for the mages, and the aristocrats beg Hawke to take over as Viscount and contain Meredith after the opening confrontation of Act 3. 

This in spite of the fact that people are told by the Chantry from the moment they can understand the spoken word that magic is a curse, that all mages are dangerous, that Tvinter mages enslaved the world and "caused" the Maker to unleash the darkspawn on the world...  despite the fact that the only apostates that most people notice are the ones who flame out or go bad.

[GavrielKay]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's not like the everyday people of Thedas have a lot of power to change things.  There are no democracies in Thedas as far as I've read.  In Kirkwall, we're told that the common people have a lot of sympathy for the mages, and the aristocrats beg Hawke to take over as Viscount and contain Meredith after the opening confrontation of Act 3. 

This in spite of the fact that people are told by the Chantry from the moment they can understand the spoken word that magic is a curse, that all mages are dangerous, that Tvinter mages enslaved the world and "caused" the Maker to unleash the darkspawn on the world...  despite the fact that the only apostates that most people notice are the ones who flame out or go bad.

True and not true.  Hawke was just a refugee from a poorly regarded neighboring country who ended up as one of the most influencial peole in Kirkwall.  Obviously that's quite the rarity.  Telling yourself you're too powerless to change things is self fulfilling.  Apathy is easy and contagious.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Neither the Grey Warden ritual nor the spell Finn casts is blood magic. It is in the grey area where blood is used as a component, not the powersource. It is in the grey area where many Templars probably wouldn't care to see the difference, but it is there.

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic, but you don't personally consider this blood magic? And Finn asked The Warden not to tell anyone (i.e. the templars) because they would consider it magic. Even Gaider said at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic.

It still isn't Blood Magic. For it to be actual Blood Magic, it would have to draw its power from lifeforce. The phylacteries, the Joinning, and Finn's spell, do not use blood as its power. It is merely a component.
But since blood is invovled in the spells, they could be viewed as blood magic, while technically not being blood magic, which is why Finn for instance asks the Warden not to tell anyone.

What is and is not "blood magic" changes between DA:O and DA2, and changes depending on which codex entry you're reading, and changes depending on which NPC you're talking to, and changes... 

Bioware can't make up their collective mind as to what blood magic is and is not.

Blood magic is magic which uses lifeforce as its powersource. Blood magic is a forbidden art, any practioner is labelled Maleficar. However, there are many forbidden arts, shapeshifting for one, which aren't Blood Magic, but are outlawed for other (unknown) reasons. A blood mage is a maleficar, but a maleficar is not neccesarily a blood mage.

[Sylvianus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

It's too late for that, that's the problem. My primary concern is to protect my people. When a dog becomes enraged and threatens, no even attacked your child, you do not ask whether to blame the owner, you cut down the rabid dog. After you ask the dog's owner.

Your people include the innocent mages.  Only Meredith tells you there no is other choice.  Even her fellow Templars doubt her.

Ok, You score a point.

I had not considered the thing like that. The truth is that the break with the mages keep thinking like that.

Meredith despite her fanaticism seemed always to care about Kirkwall, what I support. Anders has always spoken of him, and mages, only mages as if they were a people apart from citizens, maybe it's what made ​​me think that.

That said, the act of Anders also prevented me from thinking it was my people.

He should have attacked the military forces, headquarters of the Templars for example, I thought it was that he was preparing. But in reality  he attacked people and believers.

He sent a huge signal to other mages, but also to others who are not, and not good.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders achieved exactly what he wanted to. To remove the chance of compromise, forever or a very long time. Anders couldn't care less about the lives of any commoner or mage, he jsut want mages to be free, no matter the cost.

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

The thing is, with mages we get into what measure is a man. Mages arent like everyone else. They're basically demi-gods.

Mages are not demi-gods.  We kill them quite efficiently all through the game.  RogueHawke can one-shot most of them before they blink.  Yes, yes, they can deal with demons and blood magic - but only a very few of the mages we see dabbling in those arts are doing it for their own purposes. 

The circle and the Chantry put the mages into a position from which the only escape is either death as a captive or life as an apostate.  If you're going to be labeled apostate and hunted down (and likely killed or Tranquiled) then why not use blood magic as the most powerful weapon you have to fight for your freedom.  The circle creates more problems than it soves in its current incarnation.

Fear of what mages are capable of isn't a logical reason to push them to the limits of their sanity.

[Sylvianus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders achieved exactly what he wanted to. To remove the chance of compromise, forever or a very long time. Anders couldn't care less about the lives of any commoner or mage, he jsut want mages to be free, no matter the cost.

I agree. Anders is a terrorist. He sees his target as objects, they threaten or not, He dont' care. Human beings are no any more human in his eyes, they become something useful to his cause.

Whether to blow up an entire building just for the symbol and to make noise, with thousands of people inside, he will.

If mages go too far in Thedas, and that this cost involves massive attack against the people, I will not hesitate to favor extreme solutions.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 08:13 .

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders achieved exactly what he wanted to. To remove the chance of compromise, forever or a very long time. Anders couldn't care less about the lives of any commoner or mage, he jsut want mages to be free, no matter the cost.

If there was a demon of lying, I'd think you were an abomination.