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[LobselVith8]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

But you do.  That's exactly what the Right of Annulment is.  A condemnation that every man, woman and child within the circle must be considered compromised and not a single one can be spared.

When an abused dog bites you, you look at the owner and ask why he abused an innocent animal.  When an entire circle of mages lives in fear for their bodies and lives, you should look at the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and ask why the mages are being abused.

We don't know if Cullen follows through with the Rite of  Annulment or not. 

The problem in Kirkwall is that both sides have their members in the wrong, and those wrongs push more on the other side to commit their own wrongs.  There are abusive Templars and mages misusing magic. 

It's spelled Right of Annulment:

Dan Lazin wrote...

Paeyne is correct -- there are three separate terms that may appear to give the illusion of inconsistency, but, save for the one codex entry that Miashi noted, we are completely consistent in our usage in and across DAO and DAII.

Right of Annulment
Right of Conscription
Rite of Tranquility

I did a search of the full text of both DAO and DAII (not counting DLC or Awakening), and the only misuse is in that one codex entry ("The Rite of Annulment").

Also, condemning the Circle of Kirkwall for a crime that Anders committed is the focal point of the Right of Annulment that Meredith invokes: she makes it clear again and again to the Champion that this act "cannot stand" and that "the people will demand blood." She's going to murder an entire population of mages because she's giving in to the mob.

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...
I agree. Anders is a terrorist. He sees his target as objects, they threaten or not, He dont' care. Human beings are no any more human in his eyes, they become something useful to his cause.

Whether to blow up an entire building just for the symbol and to make noise, with thousands of people inside, he will.

This is why I've given up on an intellectual debate with pro-templars.  It always ends up in speculation so ridiculous it borders on delusion.

[Beerfish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders achieved exactly what he wanted to. To remove the chance of compromise, forever or a very long time. Anders couldn't care less about the lives of any commoner or mage, he jsut want mages to be free, no matter the cost.

Correct and that is precisely why he is a massive phoney, especially early in the game being the great 'healer'.  It is as if he is doing preemptive penance.  He really has f'ed over a lot of mages by his actions.  In any case this should lead to a very interesting DA3 story to see what happens.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The actual extent of Elthina's authority over the Templars is revealed by them quitting the chantry pretty soon after the end of the game.

A mutiny does not mean that the captain never had authority.

The whole of the Templar order in Thedas was on the brink of rebellion.  Are you really suggesting that the Kirkwall templars - perhaps the most powerful and rabidly anti-mage of the lot - would have tamely accepted the Grand Cleric interfering with their duty to protect the world from the mages?

Technically, the templars left the Chantry to hunt the mages, who broke free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars after the massacre that transpired in Kirkwall. And the Chantry has controlled the templars in the past because they controlled the lyrium, including distribution to the respective templars.

[Beerfish]

Rifneno wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
I agree. Anders is a terrorist. He sees his target as objects, they threaten or not, He dont' care. Human beings are no any more human in his eyes, they become something useful to his cause.

Whether to blow up an entire building just for the symbol and to make noise, with thousands of people inside, he will.

This is why I've given up on an intellectual debate with pro-templars.  It always ends up in speculation so ridiculous it borders on delusion.

LOL, you better go back and read the many pro templar, pro mages debates.  The rabid pro mage supporters are at least as speculative and delusional as the pro templars, even more so.

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

Ok, You score a point.

I had not considered the thing like that. The truth is that the break with the mages keep thinking like that.

Meredith despite her fanaticism seemed always to care about Kirkwall, what I support. Anders has always spoken of him, and mages, only mages as if they were a people apart from citizens, maybe it's what made ​​me think that.

That said, the act of Anders also prevented me from thinking it was my people.

He should have attacked the military forces, headquarters of the Templars for example, I thought it was that he was preparing. But in reality  he attacked people and believers.

He sent a huge signal to other mages, but also to others who are not, and not good.

You apparently don't agree, and that's fine:  but as far as Anders and I are concerned, the Chantry was the enemy headquarters.  It was the seat of power for those who controlled the Templars.  It was the location of Grand Cleric Elthina who was Meredith's commander as it were.  Elthina should have recognized what was happening to her Knight Commander and the mages in her care and done something to fix it.

Now an explosion of that magnitude probably did result in genuinely uninvolved bystanders getting hurt and that's not a good thing.  But the Grand Cleric is the center of the city's apathy regarding the treatment of mages and unltimately the person responsible for it being allowed to continue.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I do not condemn an entire circle, but the game shows us very clearly that there is something wrong in Kirkwall,  It is not inconceivable that many has become dangerous with many indications.

But you do.  That's exactly what the Right of Annulment is.  A condemnation that every man, woman and child within the circle must be considered compromised and not a single one can be spared.

When an abused dog bites you, you look at the owner and ask why he abused an innocent animal.  When an entire circle of mages lives in fear for their bodies and lives, you should look at the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and ask why the mages are being abused.

When I say I do not condemn, it meant that I didn't take the decision  without evidences. But you're right. I hadn't any choice, it was the situation.

I kill them all, in fact, because it's enough to think they represent a threat to security in Kirkwall. Surely there were many innocents, but I do not think they really represent the majority.

It's too late for that, that's the problem. My primary concern is to protect my people. When a dog becomes enraged and threatens, no even attacked your child, you do not ask whether to blame the owner, you cut down the rabid dog. After you ask the dog's owner.

It seems like a mentally unbalanced Knight-Commander who has become the dictator over the entire city-state would be more akin to a rapid dog that needs to be put down, as opposed to an entire population of people who are innocent of what Anders did. The mages are innocent, but Meredith condemns every last man, woman, and child to execution by a sword of mercy.

Given how mad Meredith is, I'd say your analogy about a rapid dog would fit her more than it would the countless mages who are going to be slaughtered for being mages.

[Rifneno]

Beerfish wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
I agree. Anders is a terrorist. He sees his target as objects, they threaten or not, He dont' care. Human beings are no any more human in his eyes, they become something useful to his cause.

Whether to blow up an entire building just for the symbol and to make noise, with thousands of people inside, he will.

This is why I've given up on an intellectual debate with pro-templars.  It always ends up in speculation so ridiculous it borders on delusion.

LOL, you better go back and read the many pro templar, pro mages debates.  The rabid pro mage supporters are at least as speculative and delusional as the pro templars, even more so.

Coming from a guy that tried to rewrite the definition of "innocent" not to include mages who have done nothing wrong, that means nothing.

But you're half right, this Anders bit shouldn't even be called speculation.  It should be called what it is: lies.  After seven years of trying the peaceful route after the templars worse-than-killed his lover for trying to write a letter to an apostate, he attacked one building, the seat of government in charge of the military abusing his people, and afterwards promptly said with sorrow "There's nothing you can say to me that I haven't already said to myself" and offered himself up for execution.  And you people somehow interpret that as him not caring about anyone else's lives, and doing anything to be free.  Tell me, how exactly is he a free man when he's dead from the execution he surrenders to without even being asked?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
I agree. Anders is a terrorist. He sees his target as objects, they threaten or not, He dont' care. Human beings are no any more human in his eyes, they become something useful to his cause.

Whether to blow up an entire building just for the symbol and to make noise, with thousands of people inside, he will.

This is why I've given up on an intellectual debate with pro-templars.  It always ends up in speculation so ridiculous it borders on delusion.

Then show us, oh wise Rifneno, show us in your all-knowing glory, the shinning examples of Anders altruism, in starting a war that will undoubtable cost his "people" many, many lives. How a great benefactor he must be for the mages. In his great wisdom he decides to start a war, many of them did not even ask for. Oh dear, he must be such a good sport. Oh what a shining example of selflesness he truly is. Blowing up a building and all, he truly cares about people, it literally shines out of his arse. He is so caring and loving, that he simply farts rainbows and butterflies. It truely is a miracle he was born into this world to make it a better place.
...
...
...

[LobselVith8]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Somehow, I think I end up missing conversations in these games... I don't recall any interactions that revealed that Alain had been raped, as others mention in this thread, or anything about Wynne having a child taken away from her.

(Nothing in Wynne's DA Wikia entry, either...) 

Alain mentions this in Act II when he says Ser Kerras is coming into his room late at night and threatens to make him tranquil if he tells anyone, and further implies it in Act III when he explains why he sided with Ser Thrask.

Also, Wynne mentions her son to Alistair if The Warden isn't a mage (since the dialogue starts off with the fact that she's the first mage he's liked, which isn't the case if the protagonist is also a mage). If you're curious about what Wynne says, here's the dialogue:

Alistair: You know, of all the mages I've met you have to be the first one I can honestly say I've really liked.
Wynne: Why thank you, Alistair. I am quite touched. I like you, too, Alistair. I imagine my son would have grown up to be someone like you.
Alistair: Your son? I thought you said you were never married?
Wynne: That's true. I never have been.
Alistair: I... oh. Then this wasn't... before you joined the circle?
Wynne: I joined the Circle at the age of nine. So, no. Do you still like me?
Alistair: Err... yes? Why wouldn't I?
Wynne: Good. It appears you got away from the Chantry just in time.
--------------------------------------------
Alistair: So you... mentioned you had a son? What happened to him?
Wynne: I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen. And any child born to a Circle mage belongs to the Chantry.
Alistair: I... didn't know. I'm sorry.
Wynne: It's all right. It was a long time ago. A very long time ago.
Alistair: Couldn't you do something about it?
Wynne: Do what? I was weak from the birthing process and there were... no, there was nothing I could do.
Alistair: Do you think about him?
Wynne: All the time.

[Sylvianus]

Beerfish wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
I agree. Anders is a terrorist. He sees his target as objects, they threaten or not, He dont' care. Human beings are no any more human in his eyes, they become something useful to his cause.

Whether to blow up an entire building just for the symbol and to make noise, with thousands of people inside, he will.

This is why I've given up on an intellectual debate with pro-templars.  It always ends up in speculation so ridiculous it borders on delusion.

LOL, you better go back and read the many pro templar, pro mages debates.  The rabid pro mage supporters are at least as speculative and delusional as the pro templars, even more so.

I hope you're kidding? For pages and pages, you don't  stop screaming for genocide, genocide, genocide.

I gave the definition of a terrorist. Consider human targets as useful objects, ( Eltina, people inside the chantry ) for the symbol and make noise. ( Anders said it himself , )  Sow terror and send a signal.

And I'm not pro-Templar, I am pro-people.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 08:38 .

[In Exile]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
There's blood magic, as in magic that uses life as its power, that uses the connections of blood as a focus or link, or otherwise relates to blood. 

Then there's "blood magic", as in any "forbidden magic". 

My point is that the forbidden nature of blood magic is undermined by the Chantry's use of it. The Chantry doesn't want to condemn all magic and if they recognize some valuable aspects to blood magic then all that they're left with defending is mental domination, but then counter-argument to that is that were they to create anti-mind domination charms (e.g. the Litany of Adralla writ large) then suddenly the problem goes away.

GavrielKay wrote...
I would think that everyone knows that
the circles exist and that if they have a child who demonstrates
magical ability that child will be taken away to be raised by the
cirlce.

That isn't a bad thing. We've seen with Conner what not having a mage in the Circle can do. Magic is volatible, and children have to learn it somehow. If not from a parent (and not all or many mages have parents as mages) then from an organization of mages.

With demons haunting mages, leaving them be isn't an option.

So I don't think you can say that the Circle is prima facie evil.

It's true that Anders likely stirred up hated against the
mages.  After 1000 years of everyone allowing the circles to continue
to exist - perhaps hatred isn't much worse than apathy to someone as
desperate as Anders

Anders is insane. He was ready to murder a mage for not recognizing his "help".

GavrielKay wrote...
True and not true.  Hawke was just a
refugee from a poorly regarded neighboring country who ended up as one
of the most influencial peole in Kirkwall.  Obviously that's quite the
rarity.  Telling yourself you're too powerless to change things is self
fulfilling.  Apathy is easy and contagious.

That's silly. Hawke fluked into two things: 1) the Deep Roads; 2) the Arishok. More broadly, Hawke was talented. A brilliant mage or a brillant warrior/rogue... Hawke had the skills and ability to do something.

What does the average person (in talent, courage, ability) have to raise themselves from the muck?

GavrielKay wrote...
Mages
are not demi-gods.  We kill them quite efficiently all through the
game.  RogueHawke can one-shot most of them before they blink.  Yes,
yes, they can deal with demons and blood magic - but only a very few of
the mages we see dabbling in those arts are doing it for their own
purposes. 

Using gameplay is pointless. If that were true, the Circles should be imprissoning Assasins (who have ridiculous HPs that can resist anything and can dissapear or teleport).

Lore =! gameplay.

The circle and the Chantry put the mages into a
position from which the only escape is either death as a captive or life
as an apostate.

Well, no. Ferelden had no such problem, but some mages there were still unhappy and so away they went a-killing. Meredith's insanity =! mages justified in murder.

If you're going to be labeled apostate and hunted down
(and likely killed or Tranquiled) then why not use blood magic as the
most powerful weapon you have to fight for your freedom.  The circle
creates more problems than it soves in its current incarnation.

The Circle, in principle, is not the problem. Chantry control is partially the problem, insofar as you don't want bigots guarding the dangerous minority, but self-rule of mages won't safeguard the majority from them.

Fear
of what mages are capable of isn't a logical reason to push them to the
limits of their sanity.

That has nothing do to with the lore-reality that mages > non-mages.

[The Baconer]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

First, Bioware seems to have conflated blood magic with demonology in DA2, after treating them as seperate things in DA:O.  Being a blood mage does not automatically mean that you have anything to do with demons, and a mage can become an abomination or summon a demon without ever working the tiniest bit of blood magic.

Second, it is clear that the Circles and the Templars are engaged in a vicious cycle everywhere outside the Tvinter Imperium, with things being far worse in Kirkwall than elsewhere.  Each side's wrongs push the other to commit more of their own wrongs.  Who started what when is not important, that neither side seems entirely willing to take the log out of its own eye and clean its own house IS important.  (Not to say that the Tevinter situation is better, just bad in a different way.)

Third, DA2 Anders was an idiot and fool. 

Foruth, Meridith was an extremist and bigot even before the lyrium idol, just as Bartrand was an abusive jackass even before the lyrium idol. 

Fifth, Orsino was a counter-productive coward and fool. 

This needs to be made a sticky. Or it should be reposted in every Templar v. Mage topic.

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

... He sees his target as objects, they threaten or not, He dont' care. Human beings are no any more human in his eyes, they become something useful to his cause.

Whether to blow up an entire building just for the symbol and to make noise, with thousands of people inside, he will.

If mages go too far in Thedas, and that this cost involves massive attack against the people, I will not hesitate to favor extreme solutions.

I think we have quite a bit of evidence that Anders does not see the people in the Chantry as objects.  He sees them as the fount of rhetoric that condemns him and his people.  He asks Hawke to try to talk to Elthina even as he's planting his bomb, hoping that somehow she can finally be coaxed into action.  Obviously he's willing to have bystanders die, but he doesn't consider it any worse than all those standing by while atrocities happen to the mages.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Neither the Grey Warden ritual nor the spell Finn casts is blood magic. It is in the grey area where blood is used as a component, not the powersource. It is in the grey area where many Templars probably wouldn't care to see the difference, but it is there.

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic, but you don't personally consider this blood magic? And Finn asked The Warden not to tell anyone (i.e. the templars) because they would consider it magic. Even Gaider said at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic.

It still isn't Blood Magic. For it to be actual Blood Magic, it would have to draw its power from lifeforce. The phylacteries, the Joinning, and Finn's spell, do not use blood as its power. It is merely a component.
But since blood is invovled in the spells, they could be viewed as blood magic, while technically not being blood magic, which is why Finn for instance asks the Warden not to tell anyone.

So when head writer David Gaider said that the phylacteries could be seen as a form of blood magic at PAX, he was wrong because he doesn't know as much about the lore of Dragon Age as you do?

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
You apparently don't agree, and that's fine:  but as far as Anders and I are concerned, the Chantry was the enemy headquarters.  It was the seat of power for those who controlled the Templars.  It was the location of Grand Cleric Elthina who was Meredith's commander as it were.  Elthina should have recognized what was happening to her Knight Commander and the mages in her care and done something to fix it.

Now an explosion of that magnitude probably did result in genuinely uninvolved bystanders getting hurt and that's not a good thing.  But the Grand Cleric is the center of the city's apathy regarding the treatment of mages and unltimately the person responsible for it being allowed to continue.

So you condonde this sort of spectacular terrorism for the sake of the "grand cause" even if the people you think you're protecting don't want your brand of freedom? Do you think mages getting murdered and killed in a war they didn't want is somehow better than the Circle?

How does what Anders did give any freedom for the mages? What happens if the mages (who are ridiculously outnumbered) lose? Do you think any will be left alive?

What happened in Kirkwall is nothing compared to the widespread genocide that will happen if the mages don't win. And a mages victory demands an Imperium. There's no other way the mages can secure their own freedom at this point without oppressing non-mages.

[Killjoy Cutter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

But you do.  That's exactly what the Right of Annulment is.  A condemnation that every man, woman and child within the circle must be considered compromised and not a single one can be spared.

When an abused dog bites you, you look at the owner and ask why he abused an innocent animal.  When an entire circle of mages lives in fear for their bodies and lives, you should look at the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and ask why the mages are being abused.

We don't know if Cullen follows through with the Rite of  Annulment or not. 

The problem in Kirkwall is that both sides have their members in the wrong, and those wrongs push more on the other side to commit their own wrongs.  There are abusive Templars and mages misusing magic. 

It's spelled Right of Annulment:

Dan Lazin wrote...

Paeyne is correct -- there are three separate terms that may appear to give the illusion of inconsistency, but, save for the one codex entry that Miashi noted, we are completely consistent in our usage in and across DAO and DAII.

Right of Annulment
Right of Conscription
Rite of Tranquility

I did a search of the full text of both DAO and DAII (not counting DLC or Awakening), and the only misuse is in that one codex entry ("The Rite of Annulment").

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/rite
http://dictionary.re...om/browse/right (#18 and #19 most applicable here)

The "Rite of Tranquility" is the ritual which turns a mage into a Tranquil.
The "Right of Conscription" is formal name for the right given to the Wardens to make anyone they choose join the Wardens.

Right / Rite of Annulment?  Something else Bioware can't make their mind up on.  Both work in a way, but I'll go with the Codex entry in DA:O.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, condemning the Circle of Kirkwall for a crime that Anders committed is the focal point of the Right of Annulment that Meredith invokes: she makes it clear again and again to the Champion that this act "cannot stand" and that "the people will demand blood." She's going to murder an entire population of mages because she's giving in to the mob.

No, she claims that she's doing it because the people will demand it.  The word of an obsessed zealot gone barking mad isn't a strong evidence of what the people really want. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 05 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't find it to be an accurate analogy. Blood magic provides us with the Grey Wardens (through The Joining Ritual) and a means to end the Blight (with the death of the Grey Warden killing the Archdemon). Blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them an edge against the darkspawn - who need to be stopped by any means necessary because they threaten every sentient race on the planet. Even Finn used a type of blood magic ritual to help in the effort to locate one of the remaining Eluvians on Thedas, and it was relatively harmless.

Neither the Grey Warden ritual nor the spell Finn casts is blood magic. It is in the grey area where blood is used as a component, not the powersource. It is in the grey area where many Templars probably wouldn't care to see the difference, but it is there.

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic, but you don't personally consider this blood magic? And Finn asked The Warden not to tell anyone (i.e. the templars) because they would consider it magic. Even Gaider said at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic.

It still isn't Blood Magic. For it to be actual Blood Magic, it would have to draw its power from lifeforce. The phylacteries, the Joinning, and Finn's spell, do not use blood as its power. It is merely a component.
But since blood is invovled in the spells, they could be viewed as blood magic, while technically not being blood magic, which is why Finn for instance asks the Warden not to tell anyone.

So when head writer David Gaider said that the phylacteries could be seen as a form of blood magic at PAX, he was wrong because he doesn't know as much about the lore of Dragon Age as you do?

I didn't say he was wrong, nor did he say it was blood magic. He said it could be viewed as blood magic. There is a difference.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I do not condemn an entire circle, but the game shows us very clearly that there is something wrong in Kirkwall,  It is not inconceivable that many has become dangerous with many indications.

But you do.  That's exactly what the Right of Annulment is.  A condemnation that every man, woman and child within the circle must be considered compromised and not a single one can be spared.

When an abused dog bites you, you look at the owner and ask why he abused an innocent animal.  When an entire circle of mages lives in fear for their bodies and lives, you should look at the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and ask why the mages are being abused.

When I say I do not condemn, it meant that I didn't take the decision  without evidences. But you're right. I hadn't any choice, it was the situation.

I kill them all, in fact, because it's enough to think they represent a threat to security in Kirkwall. Surely there were many innocents, but I do not think they really represent the majority.

It's too late for that, that's the problem. My primary concern is to protect my people. When a dog becomes enraged and threatens, no even attacked your child, you do not ask whether to blame the owner, you cut down the rabid dog. After you ask the dog's owner.

It seems like a mentally unbalanced Knight-Commander who has become the dictator over the entire city-state would be more akin to a rapid dog that needs to be put down, as opposed to an entire population of people who are innocent of what Anders did. The mages are innocent, but Meredith condemns every last man, woman, and child to execution by a sword of mercy.

Given how mad Meredith is, I'd say your analogy about a rapid dog would fit her more than it would the countless mages who are going to be slaughtered for being mages.

Probably but they aren't all innocent there are still Maleficarum among them, and her initial seeking to root out blood mages before Anders acts was to an extent justified.. But the whole requesting annulment prior to what anders did, or even forcing it after was indeed perhaps a bit much

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
So when head writer David Gaider said that the phylacteries could be seen as a form of blood magic at PAX, he was wrong because he doesn't know as much about the lore of Dragon Age as you do?

I didn't say he was wrong, nor did he say it was blood magic. He said it could be viewed as blood magic. There is a difference.

What is and is not "blood magic" is somewhat a matter of perception anyway, and has not remained consistent between DA:O and DA2.  There is no hard and fast line drawn.

[Sylvianus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Ok, You score a point.

I had not considered the thing like that. The truth is that the break with the mages keep thinking like that.

Meredith despite her fanaticism seemed always to care about Kirkwall, what I support. Anders has always spoken of him, and mages, only mages as if they were a people apart from citizens, maybe it's what made ​​me think that.

That said, the act of Anders also prevented me from thinking it was my people.

He should have attacked the military forces, headquarters of the Templars for example, I thought it was that he was preparing. But in reality  he attacked people and believers.

He sent a huge signal to other mages, but also to others who are not, and not good.

You apparently don't agree, and that's fine:  but as far as Anders and I are concerned, the Chantry was the enemy headquarters.  It was the seat of power for those who controlled the Templars.  It was the location of Grand Cleric Elthina who was Meredith's commander as it were.  Elthina should have recognized what was happening to her Knight Commander and the mages in her care and done something to fix it.

Now an explosion of that magnitude probably did result in genuinely uninvolved bystanders getting hurt and that's not a good thing.  But the Grand Cleric is the center of the city's apathy regarding the treatment of mages and unltimately the person responsible for it being allowed to continue.

Yes, it's true that if you look at it that way. The problem is that I never considered the Chantry as a threat to the Magi, but instead it could be part of the solution. Eltina do nothing, I agree, but ishe has yet to power. With time and willingness to convince her, I am sure we could make her change her mind. It was a very open mind and very understanding.

Hence an immense anger for what I consider an attack not really justified. But maybe from a mage point of view ... But I'm not a mage unfortunately and I can't really understand, I try... Even if they consider the Kirkwall's chantry as the headquarters, there were only civilians inside, helpless.
 
They deserve the death may be in the eyes of mages for doing nothing, because they control in theory the templars but in the eyes of others ? Those of the people and the believers? It's very difficult.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 08:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Probably but they aren't all innocent there are still Maleficarum among them, and her initial seeking to root out blood mages before Anders acts was to an extent justified.. But the whole requesting annulment prior to what anders did, or even forcing it after was indeed perhaps a bit much

As stated, both sides in the Templar / Mage conflict have their fools, their villains, and their good people trapped in a very bad system.

[Augustei]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

First, Bioware seems to have conflated blood magic with demonology in DA2, after treating them as seperate things in DA:O.  Being a blood mage does not automatically mean that you have anything to do with demons, and a mage can become an abomination or summon a demon without ever working the tiniest bit of blood magic.

Second, it is clear that the Circles and the Templars are engaged in a vicious cycle everywhere outside the Tvinter Imperium, with things being far worse in Kirkwall than elsewhere.  Each side's wrongs push the other to commit more of their own wrongs.  Who started what when is not important, that neither side seems entirely willing to take the log out of its own eye and clean its own house IS important.  (Not to say that the Tvinter situation is better, just bad in a different way.)

Third, DA2 Anders was an idiot and fool. 

Foruth, Meridith was an extremist and bigot even before the lyrium idol, just as Bartrand was an abusive jackass even before the lyrium idol. 

Fifth, Orsino was a counter-productive coward and fool. 

What did she do wrong prior to obtaining the idol? Also dispite the fact that hawke can do it (Primarily for gameplay reasons i'd imagine) is it possible to learn blood magic without consorting with demons? 

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

That isn't a bad thing. We've seen with Conner what not having a mage in the Circle can do. Magic is volatible, and children have to learn it somehow. If not from a parent (and not all or many mages have parents as mages) then from an organization of mages.

True, youngsters have to be trained just as soon as they show the talent.  That's a far cry from supporting the current system, which I believe you've acknowledged.

In Exile wrote...

Anders is insane. He was ready to murder a mage for not recognizing his "help".

Anders is possessed.  He was probably a touch insane when he volunteered to be possessed too.  I like him as a character and that he holds nothing of himself back in trying to reach his goals.  I don't agree with his methods, but I do support his cause.

In Exile wrote...

That's silly. Hawke fluked into two things: 1) the Deep Roads; 2) the Arishok. More broadly, Hawke was talented. A brilliant mage or a brillant warrior/rogue... Hawke had the skills and ability to do something.

Yes, and I did admit it was a rarity how Hawke's life went.  But history is littered with people who took up a cause and accomplished great things.  The first step is to quit telling yourself that you can't do it.

In Exile wrote...

Using gameplay is pointless. If that were true, the Circles should be imprissoning Assasins (who have ridiculous HPs that can resist anything and can dissapear or teleport).

And I've mentioned several times that if we're talking about protecting people from dangerous characters - they've left out a few. 

Honestly, the lore comes from various sources with various agendas.  Hawke is powerful, the Warden was powerful.  If it's a question of training up a few super-assassins to handle mages gone bad, I think that's quite possible.

In Exile wrote...

Well, no. Ferelden had no such problem, but some mages there were still unhappy and so away they went a-killing. Meredith's insanity =! mages justified in murder.

And the mages in Ferelden were held captive just for being mages.  People want to be free, even when they're not being raped every night.

[Killjoy Cutter]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

First, Bioware seems to have conflated blood magic with demonology in DA2, after treating them as seperate things in DA:O.  Being a blood mage does not automatically mean that you have anything to do with demons, and a mage can become an abomination or summon a demon without ever working the tiniest bit of blood magic.

Second, it is clear that the Circles and the Templars are engaged in a vicious cycle everywhere outside the Tvinter Imperium, with things being far worse in Kirkwall than elsewhere.  Each side's wrongs push the other to commit more of their own wrongs.  Who started what when is not important, that neither side seems entirely willing to take the log out of its own eye and clean its own house IS important.  (Not to say that the Tvinter situation is better, just bad in a different way.)

Third, DA2 Anders was an idiot and fool. 

Foruth, Meridith was an extremist and bigot even before the lyrium idol, just as Bartrand was an abusive jackass even before the lyrium idol. 

Fifth, Orsino was a counter-productive coward and fool. 

What did she do wrong prior to obtaining the idol? Also dispite the fact that hawke can do it (Primarily for gameplay reasons i'd imagine) is it possible to learn blood magic without consorting with demons? 

In DA:O, the Warden and any companion mage can learn blood magic without consorting with demons.  As weak-minded as acts, Jowan learns blood magic without the help of demons. 

First thing I can think of as evidence of Merrill being a extremist bigot before the Idol's influence is her support for Ser Karras and his methods.