4350 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Probably but they aren't all innocent there are still Maleficarum among them, and her initial seeking to root out blood mages before Anders acts was to an extent justified.. But the whole requesting annulment prior to what anders did, or even forcing it after was indeed perhaps a bit much

The Circle of Kirkwall is innocent of the act that Anders commits and confesses to, and it's Meredith's stated reason for murdering every man, woman, and child of the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, which likely possesses a larger percentage of mages because there are no other Circle Towers to distribute the population.

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

Yes, it's true that if you look at it that way. The problem is that I never considered the Chantry as a threat to the Magi, but instead it could be part of the solution. Eltina do nothing, I agree, but ishe has yet to power. With time and willingness to convince her, I am sure we could make her change her mind. It was a very open mind and very understanding.

And exactly how many years are we supposed to wait for Elthina to come around before admitting that she won't?  Hasn't it been something like 7 years by the time Anders blows up the Chantry?  We're not talking weeks here, or months.  And as soon as we get to Kirkwall we learn that Meredith is a bit over-zealous in her perception of duty.  So, I don't buy your argument that we could have changed her mind.

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

So you condonde this sort of spectacular terrorism for the sake of the "grand cause" even if the people you think you're protecting don't want your brand of freedom? Do you think mages getting murdered and killed in a war they didn't want is somehow better than the Circle?

How does what Anders did give any freedom for the mages? What happens if the mages (who are ridiculously outnumbered) lose? Do you think any will be left alive?

What happened in Kirkwall is nothing compared to the widespread genocide that will happen if the mages don't win. And a mages victory demands an Imperium. There's no other way the mages can secure their own freedom at this point without oppressing non-mages.

1.  Yes, I condone it.  The fact some mages have been successfully brainwashed by the Chantry's propoganda or that some are cowards does not mean the tyranny should continue.
2.  What would've happened in the slaves never rebelled against the Tevinter in Kirkwall ages ago?
3.  Do not try to pass off your speculation as fact.  There is no hard evidence that mages *must* oppress just to be free.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Probably but they aren't all innocent there are still Maleficarum among them, and her initial seeking to root out blood mages before Anders acts was to an extent justified.. But the whole requesting annulment prior to what anders did, or even forcing it after was indeed perhaps a bit much

Perhaps?!

XxDeonxX wrote...

What did she do wrong prior to obtaining the idol? Also dispite the fact that hawke can do it (Primarily for gameplay reasons i'd imagine) is it possible to learn blood magic without consorting with demons? 

We don't even see her until the tail end of Act III, so it's impossible to say what she did personally.  But the templars overall are evil throughout.  In a neighboring thread, that one about Meredith and Bethany, someone mentions early in Act I when you first get to Kirkwall, you can hear a mage screaming at being whipped.  And a tranquil asks Hawke not to steal anything because the templars will whip him/her.  JFC, they torture a tranquil if a thief stole something!  I only wish Anders had a MIRV at the end and not some little magic boom.

[TobiTobsen]

XxDeonxX wrote...

What did she do wrong prior to obtaining the idol? Also dispite the fact that hawke can do it (Primarily for gameplay reasons i'd imagine) is it possible to learn blood magic without consorting with demons? 

Either she is ignoring what her subordinates are doing or she isn't aware of it. Either way she isn't doing her job. She has to protect the people from the mages and the mages from the people. That includes her own templars, who shuld be the guards of the mages not their torturers. Her whole chapter is breaking chantry law and she even supports one of the worst offenders, Ser Karras, who is a member of her inner circle. The templar methods are cruel as soon as you arrive in Kirkwall and get only worse.

And blood magic was always learnable through books. That's how Jowan and the Warden/Orlesian did it in Awakening.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 05 mai 2011 - 09:10 .

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

So you condonde this sort of spectacular terrorism for the sake of the "grand cause" even if the people you think you're protecting don't want your brand of freedom? Do you think mages getting murdered and killed in a war they didn't want is somehow better than the Circle?

Condone?  Not really, understand yes.  We have no evidence of how the rest of the mages feel about the event that kicked off the war or the war itself.  If they end up winning freedom, then they'll probably rejoice.  If not, well, they didn't have all that much to lose.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
Condone?  Not really, understand yes.  We have no evidence of how the rest of the mages feel about the event that kicked off the war or the war itself.  If they end up winning freedom, then they'll probably rejoice.  If not, well, they didn't have all that much to lose.

We know that the Resolutionists were the only group of mages who favored armed revolt. All the other fraternities rejected them including the moderate Libertarians. So chances are, most mages did not have armed revolt in mind, at least before what happened. The thing is about revolutions , civil wars and other forms of social breakdowns is that it drags an awful lot of people who in different circumstances, would have never thought they would condone or participate in such actions, either due to mass frenzy or in response to other extremist reactions.

In any case, ifr anything positive does come out of the war, then it's only the people who thought, planned and worked for a long term solution that should get all the credit. Not Anders who did nothing of the sorts.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 mai 2011 - 09:43 .

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We know that the Resolutionists were the only group of mages who favored armed revolt. All the other fraternities rejected them including the moderate Libertarians. So chances are, most mages did not have armed revolt in mind, at least before what happened. The thing is about revolutions , civil wars and other forms of social breakdowns is that it drags an awful lot of people who in different circumstances, would have never thought they would condone or participate in such actions, either due to mass frenzy or in response to other extremist reactions.

In any case, ifr anything positive does come out of the war, then it's only the people who thought, planned and worked for a long term solution that should get all the credit. Not Anders who did nothing of the sorts.

Fair enough.  All of Act 3 is just railroading anyway.  If I were really there, in the game world, I'd have been more likely to kidnap Elthina, disguise her as a mage and send her to the circle to experience what was happening first hand.  Then she can try to tell me that the Maker won't let her take sides 

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
Fair enough.  All of Act 3 is just railroading anyway.  If I were really there, in the game world, I'd have been more likely to kidnap Elthina, disguise her as a mage and send her to the circle to experience what was happening first hand.  Then she can try to tell me that the Maker won't let her take sides 

I'd much rather take scrolls of the Chant of Light, slap her across the face with it, and remind her that the Maker is not even supposed to intefere in the mortal world as per her own faith. So why does she continously resort to the Maker as the problem solver?

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Fair enough.  All of Act 3 is just railroading anyway.  If I were really there, in the game world, I'd have been more likely to kidnap Elthina, disguise her as a mage and send her to the circle to experience what was happening first hand.  Then she can try to tell me that the Maker won't let her take sides 

I'd much rather take scrolls of the Chant of Light, slap her across the face with it, and remind her that the Maker is not even supposed to intefere in the mortal world as per her own faith. So why does she continously resort to the Maker as the problem solver?

It is kind of silly how Hawke can't point that out. 

[Sylvianus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Yes, it's true that if you look at it that way. The problem is that I never considered the Chantry as a threat to the Magi, but instead it could be part of the solution. Eltina do nothing, I agree, but ishe has yet to power. With time and willingness to convince her, I am sure we could make her change her mind. It was a very open mind and very understanding.

And exactly how many years are we supposed to wait for Elthina to come around before admitting that she won't?  Hasn't it been something like 7 years by the time Anders blows up the Chantry?  We're not talking weeks here, or months.  And as soon as we get to Kirkwall we learn that Meredith is a bit over-zealous in her perception of duty. 
So, I don't buy your argument that we could have changed her mind.

So we decide to kill them ? Wow.

 there is no moral justification for the destruction of Chantry,, and the assassination of the High Priestess and everyone inside. Even if Eltina doesn't do anything.

This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
It is kind of silly how Hawke can't point that out. 

Well she does not even bother to investigate the death of her own mom despite stumbling across an important piece of evidence, so no surprise there.

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd much rather take scrolls of the Chant of Light, slap her across the face with it, and remind her that the Maker is not even supposed to intefere in the mortal world as per her own faith. So why does she continously resort to the Maker as the problem solver?

Ah, that could have some entertainment value!

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
It is kind of silly how Hawke can't point that out. 

Well she does not even bother to investigate the death of her own mom despite stumbling across an important piece of evidence, so no surprise there.

 

Yeah Hawke's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 09:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...
This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

Anger and vengeance, especially that of the populace, usually make things worse.

Besides, Meredith earned the people's anger and disgust long before what Anders did.

[Sylvianus]

Eltina does nothing. So she is killed and Anders blew up a building. It's justified

Anders has killed innocent people, so we kill all mages? It's not justified.

Where is the difference actually ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[Sylvianus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

Anger and vengeance, especially that of the populace, usually make things worse.

Besides, Meredith earned the people's anger and disgust long before what Anders did.

Anders  have turned the people against him by his own action, Meredith is already forgotten after his act.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

Anger and vengeance, especially that of the populace, usually make things worse.

Besides, Meredith earned the people's anger and disgust long before what Anders did.

Anders  have turned the people against him by his own action, Meredith is already forgotten after his act.

Because he, like Meredith, is a moron yes. 

[GavrielKay]

Sylvianus wrote...

So we decide to kill them ? Wow.

 there is no moral justification for the destruction of Chantry,, and the assassination of the High Priestess and everyone inside. Even if Eltina doesn't do anything.

This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

"We" didn't decide anything.  Anders did.  He does it with or without Hawke's help or knowledge.

There isn't much justification for blowing up the Chantry - the headquarters for the Templar controllers - OR for killing innocent mages in the circle.  Both acts are from anger and desperation and all of it should have been prevented by Elthina. 

Meredith is the only one who thinks that killing the mages is the only option.  Everyone else seems receptive to the idea that while there may be some compromised mages, they should be dealt with individually and not as part of indiscrimate slaughter.  Remember she wanted to slaughter the mages before Anders blew up the Chantry.  So any excuse she gives is suspect. 

There is no objective reason to believe that the Templars wouldn't have been better employed helping survivors of the explosion and controlling angry crowds.  Only Meredith's word - and she is absolutely not capable of being objective at this point, if she ever was.

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...

So we decide to kill them ? Wow.

 there is no moral justification for the destruction of Chantry,, and the assassination of the High Priestess and everyone inside. Even if Eltina doesn't do anything.

This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

YES!  YES, WE DECIDE TO KILL THEM!  We're not talking about an innocent third party here, we're not talking about the friendly little church down the street, the Chantry is a governing organization.  Saying it's terrorism to kill Elthina for Meredith's atrocities is like saying it's terrorism to kill Adolf Hitler for **** concentration camps.  Well okay, technically more like Rudolph Hess, the Divine would be Hitler, but the point remains.  When your subordinates are trying to commit genocide, you are NOT an innocent party just because you didn't pull a trigger yourself.  The only injustice of Elthina's death is that she wasn't mentally, emotionally, and sexually abused until she took her own life like so many mages under her "care."

Sylvianus wrote...

Eltina does nothing. So she is killed and Anders blew up a building. It's justified

Anders has killed innocent people, so we kill all mages? It's not justified.

Where is the difference actually ?

The difference is Anders isn't a leader in charge of every mage in the Free Marches.  Clearly.

[Sylvianus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

Anger and vengeance, especially that of the populace, usually make things worse.

Besides, Meredith earned the people's anger and disgust long before what Anders did.

Anders  have turned the people against him by his own action, Meredith is already forgotten after his act.

Because he, like Meredith, is a moron yes. 

I killed Anders, Meredith and Orsino with great pleasure. All morons are dead.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...

I killed Anders, Meredith and Orsino with great pleasure. All morons are dead.

Except Hawke.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Fair enough.  All of Act 3 is just railroading anyway.  If I were really there, in the game world, I'd have been more likely to kidnap Elthina, disguise her as a mage and send her to the circle to experience what was happening first hand.  Then she can try to tell me that the Maker won't let her take sides 

I'd much rather take scrolls of the Chant of Light, slap her across the face with it, and remind her that the Maker is not even supposed to intefere in the mortal world as per her own faith. So why does she continously resort to the Maker as the problem solver?

Figure I'll join this discussion now because the forums are awfully dull these days, so....

I didn't even remember that the Maker isn't supposed to interfere in their world. Now I really think Elthina is an idiot.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I killed Anders, Meredith and Orsino with great pleasure. All morons are dead.

Except Hawke.

Considering that Cullen and Elthina will do nothing if Hawke tells them about what Anders did (on the rivalry path), I think it has to do with that lyrium in the water.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

So we decide to kill them ? Wow.

 there is no moral justification for the destruction of Chantry,, and the assassination of the High Priestess and everyone inside. Even if Eltina doesn't do anything.

This is terrorism and cowardice which deserves almost anger and vengeance of people.

YES!  YES, WE DECIDE TO KILL THEM!  We're not talking about an innocent third party here, we're not talking about the friendly little church down the street, the Chantry is a governing organization.  Saying it's terrorism to kill Elthina for Meredith's atrocities is like saying it's terrorism to kill Adolf Hitler for **** concentration camps.  Well okay, technically more like Rudolph Hess, the Divine would be Hitler, but the point remains.  When your subordinates are trying to commit genocide, you are NOT an innocent party just because you didn't pull a trigger yourself.  The only injustice of Elthina's death is that she wasn't mentally, emotionally, and sexually abused until she took her own life like so many mages under her "care."

Sylvianus wrote...

Eltina does nothing. So she is killed and Anders blew up a building. It's justified

Anders has killed innocent people, so we kill all mages? It's not justified.

Where is the difference actually ?

The difference is Anders isn't a leader in charge of every mage in the Free Marches.  Clearly.

Inaction against a crime is just as bad as being among the one(s) who committed the crime. Elthina wasn't innocent. Her own ignorance and hand-waving of the scenario makes her just as guilty as Meredith, Orsino, and anyone else.

Rifneno is right.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mai 2011 - 10:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I'd much rather take scrolls of the Chant of Light, slap her across the face with it, and remind her that the Maker is not even supposed to intefere in the mortal world as per her own faith. So why does she continously resort to the Maker as the problem solver?

Figure I'll join this discussion now because the forums are awfully dull these days, so....

I didn't even remember that the Maker isn't supposed to interfere in their world. Now I really think Elthina is an idiot.

The Maker is upset at humans for worshipping the Old Gods and corrupting the Golden City and so he left (not withou sending us the blight of course), but Andraste persuaded him to care for mortals, and he agreed because he is ****-whiped. But then humans kill Andraste, which further upsets the Maker and he deicded to leave for good. Chantry belief is that if the Chant spreads to all four corners of the world (Orlesian Imperialist expansionism wraped in religious clothing more likely), then the Maker will be back.