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[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...


Give these things some actual thought:

Rape
Tranquil-ing
Torture
Murder

Now, imagine yourself in a place where those things were happening to a group of people.  Now, imagine there's a church in this place, and it's leader is named Elthina.  Elthina has authority over the people who are doing the raping, Tranquiling and torturing...  still with me?  She has authority.  Her position allows her to put a stop to what's happening.  She can stop people from being raped, stripped of their core being, tortured and killed in a place that owes it's allegiance to her. 

Now, if you're still with me.  Continue to imagine...  she does nothing.

That is not innocence.

This is the part I really don't get.  I mean, yes, there's an argument to be had--although it is most assuredly NOT one I agree with--that giving the mages more freedom could cause them to be an increased risk to the general population, and that that risk is not deemed to be acceptable.  Okay, I can at least follow the logic.  

But the raping, murdering, torture, and illegal Tranquil-ing bit?  Like I wrote earlier, unless you're arguing that not allowing Meredith's Templars to rape and murder and torture mages-even ignoring the Tranquil bit, since I suppose excuses could always be made for why the Rite was justified--is going to cause a greater risk to the people of Kirkwall and that therefore Elthina would be "taking sides" to put a stop to it and she can't do that?  Um, sorry?  Mages not being raped means that Elthina is unfairly siding with the mages and that means she's disregarding the safety of Kirkwall?  What?!

[lrrose]

You can show Elthina the proposal of the Tranquil Solution, which she had already seen and rejected. You don't have the option of telling her that Alrik was illegally tranquiling mages.

Modifié par lrrose, 05 mai 2011 - 11:53 .

[Ryzaki]

lrrose wrote...

You can show Elthina the proposal of the Tranquil Solution, which she had already seen and rejected. You don't have the option of telling her that Alrik was illegally tranquiling mages.

Or that he was raping them. 

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...



Eltina is an old woman, tired, it's perfectly understandable that she did not have the energy to solve a case as complicated and delicate as crazy. There is no reason to kill her. was a high priestess who believed that the Kirkwall' s Chantry did not engage in politics. She loves all her children, and considers that it is not her role to resolve conflicts that could undermine its influence. She does not want one side to blame her.

  Eltina is a woman who has a heart, she is perhaps not a lot of attention to the condition of the Magi, but she is not aggressive towards them. Her concern is Kirkwall and Kirkwall is my concern.

There are people who do not act, it certainly does not mean they are bad. Everyone has his weaknesses, Eltina's  weakness is the lack of courage and resolution.

Should we  kill her because she lacks courage? Very clearly you are exaggerating, she does not like the suffering experienced by Mages.

It's a victim, and if I could kill Anders thousands of times, I will repeat.

Eltina would not be involved in all this, it is others who have always wanted to mix it. She wanted to escape his responsibilities, and can be seen with the discussion with Sebastian and timing with Qunari.

Its firstly a good person with many weakness, It's alsoan innocent victim. I do not see where it must die for it. Oo

What do heads of state for the Palestinians ? They know they suffer against Israel.

Should we kill them ?

Ok this argument certainly takes the cake.


Imagine you're a mage in the Kirkwall Circle. Imagine that some templar grabs you by the arms and forces you to a wall. He rapes you, and you're forced to endure it. If you fight back, he'll either A) kill you and spread lies about what you were doing or you'll kill him and given that the Kirkwall Templars are corrupt (most of them anyhow), you'll be killed. Either of those sound appealing to you? Didn't think so.

So for weeks Templars are raping you. Next you find out that some Templar has put in an order for you to be made Tranquil, because you were "seen" practicing blood magic. But you've passed your Harrowing and you never once touched blood magic! Does that sound good to you? Didn't think so.

Now finally imagine that you know Grand Cleric Elthina knows about all these things, especially after Hawke and Anders tell her about certain things, and she does nothing. Does that sound like an innocent woman to you? You're being punished day in and day out, and are now at risk of losing your emotions. And she does NOTHING.

She is corrupt. She's a nice lady, but she failed to do her job and that makes her corrupt, whether she wanted it or not.

[Sylvianus]

Silfren wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...


Eltina is an old woman, tired, it's perfectly understandable that she did not have the energy to solve a case as complicated and delicate as crazy. There is no reason to kill her. was a high priestess who believed that the Kirkwall' s Chantry did not engage in politics. She loves all her children, and considers that it is not her role to resolve conflicts that could undermine its influence. She does not want one side to blame her.

If she's so old and tired that she doesn't have the energy to perform her duty, then she has an obligation to step down.  If she's unable to fulfill her obligations as Grand Cleric, then her refusal to step aside for a more capable Grand Cleric is just as irresponsible as her refusal to rein in the Knight-Commander.  She has no business just lolling about the Chantry if she is no longer capable of doing her job.

  Eltina is a woman who has a heart, she is perhaps not a lot of attention to the condition of the Magi, but she is not aggressive towards them. Her concern is Kirkwall and Kirkwall is my concern.

The fact remains that she has authority over the Templars and Knight-Commander Meredith.  Not taking action to put a stop to the rape, abuse, and illegal Tranquil-ing of mages has nothing to do with the "people of Kirkwall" or whatever.  Unless the argument is that Meredith would respond to being told not to abuse the mages by sending her Templars out to massacre the citizens of Lowtown, or something, then that argument is about as ridiculous as it gets.  Even if you argue that Elthina can't step in to advocate for more freedom for the mages and try to get Meredith to stop locking them in their cells, because that would cause the mages to be a risk to the general population, the same argument does NOT extend to her putting a stop to rape and torture and illegal application of the Rite of Tranquility, because no Kirkwall citizens are going to be put at risk if the Templars stop raping people.  You could argue that Elthina's complicity in allowing the mages to be subjected to such egregious abuse CREATES a greater threat to the Kirkwall populace, because it's creating a situation guaranteed to send at least one mage on a killing rampage.  Oh wait...

There are people who do not act, it certainly does not mean they are bad. Everyone has his weaknesses, Eltina's  weakness is the lack of courage and resolution.

Hahhahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.  When you have the authority to put a stop to abuses you know are happening, and you refuse to act on that authority, it DOES mean you are bad.  That's not a weakness, that's full-out corruption.  "All that is necessary for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing."  It can seem like a trite phrase at times, but it's also a truism.  It's one thing when people are oblivious to the evils going on around them.  That's bad enough on its own. But Elthina was not oblivious.  She KNEW that terrible abuses were being carried out and she chose to do nothing about it.  That makes her just as culpable as the people carrying out the abuses.  And the mages are just as much "the people of Kirkwall" as everyone else.  She has just as much of a responsibility to ensure they are not being maltreated as she does in ensuring the safety of everyone else.  Mages being inherently more dangerous than the average person doesn't exempt them from deserving the same basic right to not be raped or tortured.

Should we  kill her because she lacks courage? Very clearly you are exaggerating, she does not like the suffering experienced by Mages.

No, we shouldn't kill her because she lacks courage.  We should kill her because she is corrupt.  And no, I'm not exaggerating.  Elthina's own words damn her.  I didn't say she claimed to like what mages go through.  I did, however, point out that Elthina openly admits to knowing about the abuses they go through, and Meredith's ever-worsening extremes.  She admits to having knowledge of abuse, but she does nothing to prevent it.  So it really doesn't matter if she feels bad for the mages.  Are you seriously going to sit there and suggest that her feeling bad for the mages makes it okay that she does nothing to help them?  Or that somehow if she feels bad about it that that alone marks her as a good, sympathetic character? That's...that's just vile, actually.  If you have the authority to put a stop to abuse, and you refuse to act on that authority, claiming to "feel bad" about the people getting abused is about as evil as you can get.

Its firstly a good person with many weakness, It's alsoan innocent victim. I do not see where it must die for it. Oo

Probably because I'm not advocating for her death because she's a good person with weaknesses, but because she's a corrupt official who shares equal guilt with Meredith in the abuse suffered by mages due to her foreknowledge of it and her subsequent refusal to either fix the problem or step down in favor of someone who can.

What do heads of state for the Palestinians ? They know they suffer against Israel.

Should we kill them ?

Oh hell no, I'm not about to be drawn into that debate. 

It's your interpretation. She is corrupt because you're with mages and you consider that she is guilty.

For someone who is not on the side of the Magi, or the side of the Templars, who don't care, she is certainly not a corrupt person because she doesn't act. She certanly not deserves to be murdered.

Meredith is the mad, not Eltina. The justification isn't here again.

myself I didn't care about the fate of the Magi, I had some sympathy, but that'it.  I was not scored more than that. Only at the end as I am concerned.

And I say with all sincerity, if mages go too far, I will cut them off until last.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 11:57 .

[IanPolaris]

No. She is corrupt because she knows that her subordinates are flouting their authority and DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT. That's all that's needed.

-Polaris

[lrrose]

IanPolaris wrote...

No. She is corrupt because she knows that her subordinates are flouting their authority and DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT. That's all that's needed.

-Polaris

Again, she doesn't know that. You aren't given the option of telling her what Alrik tried to do to Ella.

[IanPolaris]

lrrose wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No. She is corrupt because she knows that her subordinates are flouting their authority and DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT. That's all that's needed.

-Polaris

Again, she doesn't know that. You aren't given the option of telling her what Alrik tried to do to Ella.

Then she is incompetant.  Either way she needs to step down if she is so old and so tired she can't do her DAMN JOB.

It's not just about mages either.  She lets Mother Petrice run wild and provoke a war with the Qunari becuase she can't keep her own subordinates in line.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok this argument certainly takes the cake.


Imagine you're a mage in the Kirkwall Circle. Imagine that some templar grabs you by the arms and forces you to a wall. He rapes you, and you're forced to endure it. If you fight back, he'll either A) kill you and spread lies about what you were doing or you'll kill him and given that the Kirkwall Templars are corrupt (most of them anyhow), you'll be killed. Either of those sound appealing to you? Didn't think so.

So for weeks Templars are raping you. Next you find out that some Templar has put in an order for you to be made Tranquil, because you were "seen" practicing blood magic. But you've passed your Harrowing and you never once touched blood magic! Does that sound good to you? Didn't think so.

Now finally imagine that you know Grand Cleric Elthina knows about all these things, especially after Hawke and Anders tell her about certain things, and she does nothing. Does that sound like an innocent woman to you? You're being punished day in and day out, and are now at risk of losing your emotions. And she does NOTHING.

She is corrupt. She's a nice lady, but she failed to do her job and that makes her corrupt, whether she wanted it or not.

OMG!  You can't blame her!  She's old!  Don't you know you can't do wrong if you're old?!

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...


It's your interpretation. She is corrupt because you're with mages and you consider that she is guilty.

For someone who is not on the side of the Magi, or the side of the Templars, who don't care, she is certainly not a corrupt person because she doesn't act. She certanly not deserves to be murdered.

Meredith is the mad, not Eltina. The justification isn't here again.

myself I didn't care about the fate of the Magi, I had some sympathy, but that'it.  I was not scored more than that. Only at the end as I am concerned.

And I say with all sincerity, if mages go too far, I will cut them off until last.

Oh ho ho.  I only interpret Elthina's actions as corrupt because I'm naturally biased toward the mages? 

Elthina states that she knew Ser Alrik wanted to Tranquil all the mages.  She states that she does not approve of the Knight Commander's methods.  She states that she would not want to be a mage in the Gallows.  These are not fantasies I've conjured, she makes all of those statements in various dialog cutscenes.    Getting somewhat away from the mage issue, you also confront her about Sister Petrice, something else about which she, even when presented with information, takes no action against--including not bothering to investigate the claim.

She makes it abundantly clear based on her actual dialog in the game that she knows how bad things are for mages in Kirkwall. 

And I'm also not imagining her authority as the Grand Cleric; neither did I dream up her refusal to act on her authority or her refusal to step down in favor of someone capable of taking action.  

All this is concretely presented in the game.  It has NOTHING to do with my position as being pro-mage. 

When I first came upon the Grand Cleric, I liked her.  She seemed to be a sympathetic character.  I was generally pro-mage freedom but more or less in the middle of the conflict because I could understand and sympathize with the pro-templar argument.  It was being confronted time and again with Elthina's refusal to take action that pushed me into deciding, at the end, that Anders was justified in what he did, because her bland "the Maker will sort it out in his own time" appalled me no end.  So sorry, but it's actually Elthina's fault that I came to believe that as horrible as his action was, Anders did what was necessary.

Modifié par Silfren, 06 mai 2011 - 12:12 .

[Sylvianus]

sight *

You are pathetic and childish. Old age is playing in her weakness, it does not mean it's justifiable, it explains in part why she just does not work. It does not mean it explains everything either. That was the meaning of my remarks.

General Petain, abandoned face to the Germans? He was old and had lost all spirit of combativeness. This is understandable in part because he was old, that excuse does his defeat by Germany? Not at all.

This is understandable in this sense. must speak as to children so that you understand ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 mai 2011 - 12:10 .

[Bigdoser]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok this argument certainly takes the cake.


Imagine you're a mage in the Kirkwall Circle. Imagine that some templar grabs you by the arms and forces you to a wall. He rapes you, and you're forced to endure it. If you fight back, he'll either A) kill you and spread lies about what you were doing or you'll kill him and given that the Kirkwall Templars are corrupt (most of them anyhow), you'll be killed. Either of those sound appealing to you? Didn't think so.

So for weeks Templars are raping you. Next you find out that some Templar has put in an order for you to be made Tranquil, because you were "seen" practicing blood magic. But you've passed your Harrowing and you never once touched blood magic! Does that sound good to you? Didn't think so.

Now finally imagine that you know Grand Cleric Elthina knows about all these things, especially after Hawke and Anders tell her about certain things, and she does nothing. Does that sound like an innocent woman to you? You're being punished day in and day out, and are now at risk of losing your emotions. And she does NOTHING.

She is corrupt. She's a nice lady, but she failed to do her job and that makes her corrupt, whether she wanted it or not.

OMG!  You can't blame her!  She's old!  Don't you know you can't do wrong if you're old?!

I agree, leave the poor old lady alone!

Modifié par Bigdoser, 06 mai 2011 - 12:12 .

[non-post]

This is my first ever post, and while I have been entertained with this thread, I can't take it anymore.

Anders and Meredith are the extremists, both have very strong views and when you add strong influences (ie..Justice, Idol). They became even more radical and irrational, and this culminated with the bombing of the Chantry and the Right of Annulment. Both Anders and Meredith fully planned their actions. It doesn't matter when, where, or who decided it first, innocents died on both sides.

Keep in mind, that is wrong to blow up the Chantry just to start a war and it is wrong to Annul the Circle for the actions of one man. There is no justification for either.

I think what got me the most was... Elthina deserves to die, she didn't stop the abuse. Or, Elthina is in the Chantry and they are opressing the poor mages, she is so dead... Both Elthina and Orsino could have more capable in their positions. Elthina should have reined in Meredith, and Orsino should have been more protective of his mages. But alas, they weren't written that way.

This is what it boils down to; Will you side abomination/ blood mages or the rapist/ jack-booted Templars. This is the choice that DA2 unfortunately gives you.

For the record; I've completed this game three times, twice siding with the mages, once the Templars. And I didn't feel guilty about choosing either side.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok this argument certainly takes the cake.


Imagine you're a mage in the Kirkwall Circle. Imagine that some templar grabs you by the arms and forces you to a wall. He rapes you, and you're forced to endure it. If you fight back, he'll either A) kill you and spread lies about what you were doing or you'll kill him and given that the Kirkwall Templars are corrupt (most of them anyhow), you'll be killed. Either of those sound appealing to you? Didn't think so.

So for weeks Templars are raping you. Next you find out that some Templar has put in an order for you to be made Tranquil, because you were "seen" practicing blood magic. But you've passed your Harrowing and you never once touched blood magic! Does that sound good to you? Didn't think so.

Now finally imagine that you know Grand Cleric Elthina knows about all these things, especially after Hawke and Anders tell her about certain things, and she does nothing. Does that sound like an innocent woman to you? You're being punished day in and day out, and are now at risk of losing your emotions. And she does NOTHING.

She is corrupt. She's a nice lady, but she failed to do her job and that makes her corrupt, whether she wanted it or not.

OMG!  You can't blame her!  She's old!  Don't you know you can't do wrong if you're old?!

Oh my! Then I retract my statement! I guess really old people in our society are innocent despite the crimes they do!

[GavrielKay]

I have decided give up on convincing Sylvianus of anything at all.

I'm glad that this is the first time I've encountered anyone so willing to excuse atrocity on these forums - at least it means that it's a rarity

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...

sight *

You are pathetic and childish. Old age is playing in her weakness, it does not mean it's justifiable, it explains in part why she just does not work. It does not mean it explains everything either. That was the meaning of my remarks.

General Petain, abandoned face to the Germans? He was old and had lost all spirit of combativeness. This is understandable in part because he was old, that excuse does his defeat by Germany? Not at all.

This is understandable in this sense. must speak as to children so that you understand ?

Once again, if you're so old that you are incapable of doing your job, the answer is to step down.  If she was so senile that stepping down didn't occur to her...well, I don't buy that because I'm fairly sure that if she had reached that level of senility, the necessity of having someone following her around to remind her when to eat and to wipe the drool from her chin would have had someone saying "Hey, the old lady needs to retire, let's take her home to bed and send a letter to the Divine."

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...

sight *

You are pathetic and childish. Old age is playing in her weakness, it does not mean it's justifiable, it explains in part why she just does not work. It does not mean it explains everything either. That was the meaning of my remarks.

General Petain, abandoned face to the Germans? He was old and had lost all spirit of combativeness. This is understandable in part because he was old, that excuse does his defeat by Germany? Not at all.

This is understandable in this sense. must speak as to children so that you understand ?

Just one question.  If old people aren't guilty of anything, then are we children guilty of everything?  

non-post wrote...

I think what got me the most was... Elthina deserves to die, she didn't stop the abuse. Or, Elthina is in the Chantry and they are opressing the poor mages, she is so dead... Both Elthina and Orsino could have more capable in their positions. Elthina should have reined in Meredith, and Orsino should have been more protective of his mages. But alas, they weren't written that way.

Orsino?  His position held by far the least power of any of them.  He couldn't do much to protect the Circle, he was afraid to leave the Gallows himself because even he would be charged with blood magic on no more evidence than having gone out to grab a bite to eat at the wrong time.

In fact it's quite possible he was protecting the mages TOO much.  One theory that's been tossed around a bit on why he didn't turn in Quentin is because he knew Meredith would use it as ammunition to come down even harder on all the innocent mages in the Circle.  I think he has some merit too.  All we know for certain is that Orsino gave him books on necromancy.  Necromancy itself isn't blood magic, it's in the spirit school.  We don't know he knew Quentin was abducting and killing women at the time.  Most of all, Orsino just strikes me as a dedicated leader because of his actions during the Qunari invasion if Bethany is in the Circle.  He was more than willing to let the Qunari take him to save Bethany.  His codex also backs up that he's in an unenviable position of having very little actual power and trying to do the best he can for the mages with it.

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...

True, youngsters have to be trained just as soon as they show the talent.  That's a far cry from supporting the current system, which I believe you've acknowledged.

But that does justify taking children away from their parents. Unless you think you can have roving mage schools in the boondocks or that parents will want/be able to move away with their kid so that their child can learn magic?

I am pointing out that some of the practices of the Circle are not in themselves abominable given what it means to be a mage. Beyond that, I think it's unreasonable to expect your common person to know in detail of the abuses the templars are working very hard to cover up.

And even so, there is, again, a popular movement against the templars.

Anders is possessed.  He was probably a touch insane when he volunteered to be possessed too.  I like him as a character and that he holds nothing of himself back in trying to reach his goals.  I don't agree with his methods, but I do support his cause.file:///C:/Users/Vlad/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.pngfile:///C:/Users/Vlad/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.png

But you do agree with his method; you justified the killing of Elthina, no? All that you said was that if innocents died it would be deplorable... but if was just the Grand Cleric and other ordained of the Chantry, it sounded as if you were suggesting what Anders did was justified.

Yes, and I did admit it was a rarity how Hawke's life went.  But history is littered with people who took up a cause and accomplished great things.  The first step is to quit telling yourself that you can't do it.file:///C:/Users/Vlad/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-4.png

The second is to be talented. Life is really littered with people that were too slow, stupid or ugly to ever achieve more than mediocrity.

And I've mentioned several times that if we're talking about protecting people from dangerous characters - they've left out a few. file:///C:/Users/Vlad/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.png

Yeah... let's not look at broken gameplay.  : P

Honestly, the lore comes from various sources with various agendas.  Hawke is powerful, the Warden was powerful.  If it's a question of training up a few super-assassins to handle mages gone bad, I think that's quite possible.

If the mages are weak, then a mage rebellion is insane. They will get murdered so hard and so fast the whole thing is a waste.

More broadly, magic is what threw the qunari back... and they had cannons and guns. So if we just say that magic is the difference between swords/shields & arrows and cannons and guns.... well, magic is damn powerful.

And the mages in Ferelden were held captive just for being mages.  People want to be free, even when they're not being raped every night

Absolutely. But that doesn't justify murder. I'm not saying that the mages shouldn't be free; I support their freedom.  I just think that freedom shouldn't come at the expense of the non-mage majority and not through outright terrorism.

Modifié par In Exile, 06 mai 2011 - 12:57 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

sight *

You are pathetic and childish. Old age is playing in her weakness, it does not mean it's justifiable, it explains in part why she just does not work. It does not mean it explains everything either. That was the meaning of my remarks.

General Petain, abandoned face to the Germans? He was old and had lost all spirit of combativeness. This is understandable in part because he was old, that excuse does his defeat by Germany? Not at all.

This is understandable in this sense. must speak as to children so that you understand ?

Once again, if you're so old that you are incapable of doing your job, the answer is to step down.  If she was so senile that stepping down didn't occur to her...well, I don't buy that because I'm fairly sure that if she had reached that level of senility, the necessity of having someone following her around to remind her when to eat and to wipe the drool from her chin would have had someone saying "Hey, the old lady needs to retire, let's take her home to bed and send a letter to the Divine."

THIS ^.

I'd also like to point out that if you sent Feynriel to live with the Dalish, there is a confrontation between Templars and Dalish Hunters. Here, the Dalish say the Templars took one of their child hunters and tortured him for information on Feynriel's whereabouts.

The templar's response?

"I don't care about these knife-ears!"

I think on my next playthrough I'll slaughter those Templars. That woman needs to be taught a lesson. A permanent one that she'll learn very quickly.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

It's your interpretation. She is corrupt because you're with mages and you consider that she is guilty.

Meredith is abusing their authority, to the point where she becomes the dictator of Kirkwall because she refuses to permit a new Viscount, and people are addressing Grand Cleric Elthina's responsibility because she is Meredith's superior (which is addressed in the codex entry on Elthina).

Sylvianus wrote...

For someone who is not on the side of the Magi, or the side of the Templars, who don't care, she is certainly not a corrupt person because she doesn't act. She certanly not deserves to be murdered.

Elthina's inaction permits a number of abuses to take place, which is the problem that some people have with the Grand Cleric.

Sylvianus wrote...

Meredith is the mad, not Eltina. The justification isn't here again.

myself I didn't care about the fate of the Magi, I had some sympathy, but that'it.  I was not scored more than that. Only at the end as I am concerned.

Except it rans far deeper than the dichotomy between the mages and the templars when the Knight-Commander is ruling over the entire city-state.

[Bigdoser]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

sight *

You are pathetic and childish. Old age is playing in her weakness, it does not mean it's justifiable, it explains in part why she just does not work. It does not mean it explains everything either. That was the meaning of my remarks.

General Petain, abandoned face to the Germans? He was old and had lost all spirit of combativeness. This is understandable in part because he was old, that excuse does his defeat by Germany? Not at all.

This is understandable in this sense. must speak as to children so that you understand ?

Once again, if you're so old that you are incapable of doing your job, the answer is to step down.  If she was so senile that stepping down didn't occur to her...well, I don't buy that because I'm fairly sure that if she had reached that level of senility, the necessity of having someone following her around to remind her when to eat and to wipe the drool from her chin would have had someone saying "Hey, the old lady needs to retire, let's take her home to bed and send a letter to the Divine."

THIS ^.

I'd also like to point out that if you sent Feynriel to live with the Dalish, there is a confrontation between Templars and Dalish Hunters. Here, the Dalish say the Templars took one of their child hunters and tortured him for information on Feynriel's whereabouts.

The templar's response?

"I don't care about these knife-ears!"

I think on my next playthrough I'll slaughter those Templars. That woman needs to be taught a lesson. A permanent one that she'll learn very quickly.

Dalish was one of my favourite origins when I heard what the templars did to the child hunter lets just say they won't be seeing kirkwall again >_>

Modifié par Bigdoser, 06 mai 2011 - 12:30 .

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
1.  Yes, I condone it.  The fact some mages have been successfully brainwashed by the Chantry's propoganda or that some are cowards does not mean the tyranny should continue.

If by some mages, you mean just about every mage in Kirkwall, then yes, some mages were not pleased with being slaughtered almost to the last man, woman and child because Anders felt it was time to remove compromise.

2.  What would've happened in the slaves never rebelled against the Tevinter in Kirkwall ages ago?

I'm not seeing the mages rebelling against Tevinter. I see a lunatic that effectively murdered every mage in Kirkwall. Freedom for the mages =! the insanity of Anders.

3.  Do not try to pass off your speculation as fact.  There is no hard evidence that mages *must* oppress just to be free.

The mages need the templars broken and their own country. But do you think there are enough mages to maintain a military force, a city, and an entire economy? Do you think there are enough mages that can farm, work as bankers, or man ships? Will people openly trade with them?

Freedom for the mages is more than just winning a war.

[Sylvianus]

Eltina don't want to deal with anything like that. Eltina do not want to hear about it. Yes she knows everything, but she doesn't act. I do not see corruption, not to act.

I did not even know it was the role of high priestess to care for the improvement of living conditions of the Magi .. hm

And for Petrice, she left the qunari killed her to appease the situation with the Arishock and to avenge the death of the son of Viscount. She knows very well that Petrice has gone too far. She abandoned her, besides, I was shocked, I do not like qunari.

Anders has not killed her because he thought she was guilty, but the symbol she represented. He killed her because he kwnow that she will do nothing for mages. Not becauses of fantasies of corruption. It is you who invent fantasies to justify something that is not justifiable...

And yes, given how you exaggerate on her character, as you exaggerate on the genocide issue, your view is biased, and when it gets too much I listen a lot less.

It's almost  it would appear that she is as crazy as Meredtih

The problem of the Magi, very little people were concerned about it before it explodes.

In short, it's time to sleep.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 mai 2011 - 12:34 .

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
Condone?  Not really, understand yes.  We have no evidence of how the rest of the mages feel about the event that kicked off the war or the war itself.  If they end up winning freedom, then they'll probably rejoice.  If not, well, they didn't have all that much to lose.

We know that Orsino was appalled and the mages that followed him thought it was outright insanity. Grace wanted to murder Hawke, and it isn't entirely clear the templars weren't being controlled with bloodmagic, but I assume that they weren't. Their group had an insurrection against the templars and Meredith to make the Circle work.

So it's very clear that what Anders did wasn't what the majority wanted.

[TEWR]

Grace was insane. And possessed since you fight an abomination of her in that fight.