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[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Well, part of the objection to the Circle's existing practice is that it doesn't merely take children away.  It takes children away against the parents' will, and--and this is crucial bit--does not allow them to ever be a family again.  It's not just that the Chantry has it as a law that children have to go away to a Circle: the Chantry makes it legal for templars to raid a home and drag a child away from their parents.  Anders was taken away in chains.  Seriously.  As a young boy, when the templars came for him, he was led away in chains while his mother wept, IIRC.  That is not acceptable.  Moreover, the law does not hold that a child can return to their family after they've mastered their abilities.  They're cut off from their family for life. 

That's just a debate over the failed methods of the Chantry - we can all agree that how the templars behave is immoral. But that does not address whether or not the core approach - separating mage children from their families for the purpose of training for their inescapable life as mages is right or wrong.

People--and I'm in this camp--who say that they're not opposed to children being taken away for training (and who then get subjected to snide comments of "you mean like they currently are in the Circles?") aren't trying to "have the Circle but call it another name" as at least one person has rolled their eyes and claimed.  We're saying that there's nothing wrong with requiring mage children to go to school for training, but that a much better way would be for the Circles to be like boarding schools. 

That ignores the reality of what a mage is. You can't pretend as if a capable young mage is not somehow greater than your average capable non-mage, and that this young mage does not have the capacity to alter reality in a way that is unfathomable for anyone else.

The mage has to go, and they have to prove that they've mastered control of their abilities, learned to resist demonic temptation, and have trained in self-defense against blood magic domination, etc.  But once that training is over, they're free to go home, or wherever they wish.  Also, don't rip the child away from their parents and clap them in chains like they're criminals, maybe?  Don't deny their parents the right to visit them and communicate with them?  

It goes without saying that the methods of the templars are unjustified.

But the issue is, again, much more complicated than that. The core issue here is the imbalance of power. A mage is just something greater than a non-mage. There is nothing that changes that reality.

The Circle as it exists is oppressive; but it exists not to opress mages but to counter-balance their power in some way. I agree with you that there must and does exist a better way, but there can't be any compromise until we find a way to offer non-mages security in a reasonable fashion.

It's not that mages should inordinately bear this burden; but we have to recognize the basic reality of imbalance in Thedas before addressing freedom and just treatment of mages and non-mages alike.

Yes, it's true that some parents would have to face their children being taken a LOOONG ways away.  Not exactly a fun prospect, but a far better system than jerking the child away forever and not only disallowing the parents contact with their child ever again, but not even telling them where the child is going? 

One thing that's being ignored would be whether the parents actually want the child in this environment. A Maker-fearing Chantry follower might feel cursed and may well be tempted to kill the child to hide their shame. As much as templars commit abuses, they have some lattitude to do so partly because there are people who believe treating mages in this way is justified.

The issue is more complicated that just an oppressed minority.

And of course the added benefit of the child being free to go home once training is over, would probably mitigate a lot of that pain.  Then again, since it would be the law of the land that children are required to be taken to Circles for training, even if that means being taken far away, there's an argument to be had for requiring a fund to be created to permit mage children and/or their families the ability to travel.

And where would this money come from? What if the mage opts for tranquility (I believe Owain did this). Why do you think the person who would go home is a child, and not an adult? Do you think there shouldn't be something as the Harrowing?

You're glossing over a lot. While I agree with you in principle, I believe there is just more to the system than you're addressing right now.

I'm not glossing over anything, I was making a general statement of the basic idea of training mages in a more humane way.  I could go into point-by-point detail of the things you bring up, because believe it or not, those things have already occurred to me, I've put more thought into the overall picture and its various implications than I have any right to given that we're talking about a fictitious video game world.

Main reason I didn't go into more detail is that I already have an innate tendency to be long-winded, and that never ends well.  Plus, I've been staring at my computer for fourteen hours, trying to follow various philosophical discussions at the same time as I'm working on something else, and I think I've finally reached the end of my ability to focus now.  I will say that you touch on one imprtant point I think needs special attention: parents being afraid of their mage child because they believe the Chantry position thatits' a curse.  I think a good chunk of the current problem in Thedas is that the Chantry has dominated the opoular opinion of mages for a thousand years.  You could compare it to any number of unjust cultural paradigms in the real world, where the majority population took something for granted as an inescapable fact because that had been presented as the natural order of things by the ruling authority.  Historically, both religion and science--bad science, mind--have been used to justify racism as natural, for one glaring example.  That the CHantry has created the social instution and the cultural assumptiosn that things are the way they are because that's jsut the way life is...just points to another reaosn why I think the CHantry is corrupt.

And now my eyes are watering and blurring over so ts'i time for me to quit trying to blrend work and plreasure and pull out of this discussion till tomorrow.

[TEWR]

I think there are a few tranquil mages in the gallows who randomly start talking about Meredith performing the RoA on them.

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

The Chantry commands the templars, but the templars are autonomous.

Um, how does that work?  I'm not talking day to day pencil supplies here, but the person of the Knight Commander herself and some of her inner circle.  These people are entrusted with an incredibly important task and should be watched for signs of stress and corruption.  Elthina fails completely at what could be argued is her most important duty.

Meredith does not sent Elthina reports saying "14 mages were beaten today, 4 were sodomized, and 1 was made to eat his own excrement." Alrik does not word his "templar solution" request as "I srsly want to sexually exploit all the female mages." Karras does not wear a t-shirt saying "I abused 4 mages in the past week."

Not having a daily report of the atrocities and not knowing it's going on are different.  I think we see enough that we can believe she either knew, or should have known.  If nothing else she could have asked Hawke just why she kept running up to her in the Chantry and bringing it up over and over.

Should she have done more? Absolutely. Is she guilty of inaction, and did that perpetuate the abuses of the templars? Yes and yes. But that is a far cry from her being directly responsible for the abuses perpetrated by Karras, Meredith and Alrik.

I think someone who can stop a bad thing and doesn't is directly responsible for not stopping the bad thing.  If the "thing" is bad enough, then the guilt is proportional.  If Anders plants the bomb and you're given the opportunity to defuse it, are you responsible if you do nothing?

What collective forces? How would these forces exist? Who would fund them? Who would train them? How would they fight against blood magic? What would prevent the maleficar (with no phylactery and no laws against mages) from dominating the superiors running that organization to declare the maleficar innocent?

Well, to the first, all the Templars who aren't guarding circles anymore.  I assume circles would be much smaller friendlier places if they are used only for training young mages.  Funding?  How are they paid now?  Training?  Same thing.  You don't think the Chantry would abandon one of it's core beliefs just because the circles change from prisons to schools?  And as for the last, that could happen now as easily as later.  All kinds of mages were apparently escaping the Kirkwall circle.  Anders escaped 7 times from the Ferelden circle.  It would free up a bunch of Templars from hunting down mages who haven't done anything and let them hunt the ones who have.

Right. I agree. I just mean that we shouldn't fall into the Chantry's terminology for mages. There are criminals and some happen to be mages... but I don't think that mages should be guilty of crimes in virtue of acting like mages, and the concept of maleficar essentially represents that.

Exactly.  Sorry if the term I used made it seem I bought into that.  I've been typing quite a bit today and got lazy

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

One of Elthina's best lines, "The Chantry is not a domineering father, she is a gentle mother."  Is that supposed to be a joke, you withered old harpy?

...

But the Chantry's sword arm has to be amputated.

These bits made me laugh out loud.  I love it.  So true.

Thank ye.  Good to hear.  

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Is there ever any proof that Meredith tranquilizes mages that act out? Karl is the only one I can remember, but that's one mage in six years.

Considering I've yet to find a pro-templar willing to admit Cullen supported the Tranquil Solution when Cullen answers "Do you support this?" with dodging the quesiton and defending the policy, I'm disinclined to waste my time chasing down the instances in which it's heavily implied.  And flat out stated by Anders, but of course everything he says is a lie because he's biased.

I wonder if the opposite would work.  Maybe I should go around claiming we have no proof Quentin killed Leandra, maybe he just stumbled onto her already dead body.  ...  Nah, the sarcasm would be lost in text.  

Silfren wrote...

Again, if it's because she's old and tired, then she needs to step down.  She has no excuse for remaining in her position as the Grand Cleric if she's too old and tired to actually act as the Grand Cleric.  If she was so old that she had lost the ability to comprehend her need to step down, then someone else had a responsibility to have her removed.  I don't buy that notion anyway, nothing in game suggests that Elthina has lost her wits to the point of being unable to realize it's time to retire.  And if she had been that far gone, I don't believe that someone would not step in to replace her.  I seriously doubt people--even people who loved her--would just let the Grand Cleric deterioriate into such an advanced state of senility or dementia before the public eye rather than allow her to retire with some dignity.

Exactly.  Honestly the age thing is just an excuse.  A ridiculous one at that.  There is no evidence whatsoever that her age has anything more to do with her decisionmaking than her hair color.  At no point does she display any sign of mental illness or deterioration.  None.  Her reason for letting the templars run wild is stated clearly multiple times, by her.  She thinks everything is the Maker's will and it's not her place to interfere because "eternity is long enough that we need not rush it."

And no, you have been shown time and again that our charges of corruption in the Grand Cleric are not at all based on "invented fantasies."  You just choose to ignore what we keep pointing out to you because to acknowledge it would invalidate all of your claims.

I'm still waiting for his excuse in claiming Anders didn't care at all about the lives lost by his attack and all he wants is his freedom, when Anders immediately says he's already beaten himself up verbally over it and Hawke can't do any worse, then offers himself up for execution without a fight.  But we're the ones inventing fantasies.  Riiiight.

In Exile wrote...
Elthina shuts her eyes tight and ignores the rumours that she hears about Meredith. But the Chantry do not even have a policy of their Grand Clerics running their day-to-day treatment of mages by as a manager would oversee employees.

Not true.  She openly acknowledges the templars are going too far.  She says flat out that she doesn't support their "methods."  She doesn't pretend the templars aren't corrupt, she just doesn't want to do anything about it.

She also accuses Hawke of "fanning the flames of rebellion" if you point out the obvious.  Which is hilarious to me.

[TEWR]

Just saw a banter between a Gallows elven mage and a Human Tranquil.

The elven mage was calling out to this woman, Helena, asking if she remembered him.

She said she did and that they were involved in an illicit relationship. the elf said he loved her and she said that Ser Alrik was the only one who could command her now.


Gotta love those Templars. So much so that you just want to kill them.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just saw a banter between a Gallows elven mage and a Human Tranquil.

The elven mage was calling out to this woman, Helena, asking if she remembered him.

She said she did and that they were involved in an illicit relationship. the elf said he loved her and she said that Ser Alrik was the only one who could command her now.


Gotta love those Templars. So much so that you just want to kill them.

I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

[Merela]

Rifneno wrote...

I'm still waiting for his excuse in claiming Anders didn't care at all about the lives lost by his attack and all he wants is his freedom, when Anders immediately says he's already beaten himself up verbally over it and Hawke can't do any worse, then offers himself up for execution without a fight.  But we're the ones inventing fantasies.  Riiiight.

Actually, I feel more or less the same. And considering that Anders turned into a patented liar, his speech made me going all "You did it for other people? ORLY? ".Maybe I'm wrong but I had the feeling that Anders was more sorry for himself than for the people who died and who will die because of him. Even his 'Death will make me a martyr!" sounded just self-absorbed.

Or maybe it's just the negative vision I have of Anders since Awakening, who appears to me like a miserable, self-hating coward who spent his life running away from his responsibilities, first as a mage then as a Warden then as a revolutionary, his beg for dying as a martyr being actually his ultimate getaway. But I guess it's not the right topic.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just saw a banter between a Gallows elven mage and a Human Tranquil.

The elven mage was calling out to this woman, Helena, asking if she remembered him.

She said she did and that they were involved in an illicit relationship. the elf said he loved her and she said that Ser Alrik was the only one who could command her now.


Gotta love those Templars. So much so that you just want to kill them.

I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

you got a point there. He's old. he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

you got a point there. He's old. he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

Geralt of Rivia must be the most innocent, harmless and kind person in existence then.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just saw a banter between a Gallows elven mage and a Human Tranquil.

The elven mage was calling out to this woman, Helena, asking if she remembered him.

She said she did and that they were involved in an illicit relationship. the elf said he loved her and she said that Ser Alrik was the only one who could command her now.


Gotta love those Templars. So much so that you just want to kill them.

Yep.  That was a real hallmark moment.  Who says that Templars can't love a mage......grrr....

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

you got a point there. He's old. he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

Geralt of Rivia must be the most innocent, harmless and kind person in existence then.

Naw, that's Flemeth.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

you got a point there. He's old. he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

Geralt of Rivia must be the most innocent, harmless and kind person in existence then.

Naw, that's Flemeth.

Unless she's a thousand years old, then it's Matriach Benezia.

Or don't Asari count you racist human?

[TEWR]

double post.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mai 2011 - 03:46 .

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

you got a point there. He's old. he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

Geralt of Rivia must be the most innocent, harmless and kind person in existence then.

Naw, that's Flemeth.

she's that lovable and kind grandma type.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

you got a point there. He's old. he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

Geralt of Rivia must be the most innocent, harmless and kind person in existence then.

Naw, that's Flemeth.

she's that lovable and kind grandma type.

...that leaves most of her guests in pieces....hanging from the trees.....

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I donno man.  Ser Alrik had some grey hair.  Maybe we should let him off the hook, ya know?

you got a point there. He's old. he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

Geralt of Rivia must be the most innocent, harmless and kind person in existence then.

Naw, that's Flemeth.

she's that lovable and kind grandma type.

...that leaves most of her guests in pieces....hanging from the trees.....

-Polaris

It's out of love man. It's out of love. She's not doing anything wrong because she's so old. It's just out of love.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It's out of love man. It's out of love. She's not doing anything wrong because she's so old. It's just out of love.

Well it is hinted that she literally does make love with them. Without even asking them because she's that hospitable.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It's out of love man. It's out of love. She's not doing anything wrong because she's so old. It's just out of love.

Well it is hinted that she literally does make love with them. Without even asking them because she's that hospitable.

well I doubt anyone could turn this down.





maybe she's a blood mage and she takes control of their minds!

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Unless she's a thousand years old, then it's Matriach Benezia.

Or don't Asari count you racist human?

If we're going that route, Nazara must be a super-saint!

IanPolaris wrote...

...that leaves most of her guests in pieces....hanging from the trees.....

-Polaris

Flemeth is the Blair Witch?  O_o

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Well it is hinted that she literally does make love with them. Without even asking them because she's that hospitable.

Wow, she could pass for a templar.

[Plaintiff]

Merela wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'm still waiting for his excuse in claiming Anders didn't care at all about the lives lost by his attack and all he wants is his freedom, when Anders immediately says he's already beaten himself up verbally over it and Hawke can't do any worse, then offers himself up for execution without a fight.  But we're the ones inventing fantasies.  Riiiight.

Actually, I feel more or less the same. And considering that Anders turned into a patented liar, his speech made me going all "You did it for other people? ORLY? ".Maybe I'm wrong but I had the feeling that Anders was more sorry for himself than for the people who died and who will die because of him. Even his 'Death will make me a martyr!" sounded just self-absorbed.

Or maybe it's just the negative vision I have of Anders since Awakening, who appears to me like a miserable, self-hating coward who spent his life running away from his responsibilities, first as a mage then as a Warden then as a revolutionary, his beg for dying as a martyr being actually his ultimate getaway. But I guess it's not the right topic.

I find it funny that people are all "What about the lives that will be lost in war due to Anders' actions". When in fact, he is not responsible for the war at all.

Did he want one? Certainly. Were his actions provocative? Definitely.

But the Kirkwall Rebellion is swiftly put down, no matter what side you choose. The mages flee en masse or are executed, but either way it's a failure.

News of this spectacular flop reaches the other circles, and at this point they have two options: keep living their lives, or raise some hell. They choose the latter, of their own volition. Anders didn't make them, and the templars didn't attack them. Mages across Thedas chose to rebel, they struck the first blow and they are responsible for their own actions. You can't lay the blame on Anders, or anyone else for that matter.

[TEWR]

would people like to see some rants I made regarding Blood Magic and another one regarding the Chantry in a comparison to an Edgar Allan Poe quote?


Also, Plaintiff that is the right way to look at it. Free will goes a long way in starting a war.

[Xilizhra]

Let's see them.

[LobselVith8]

I'd like to see the Chantry through the eyes of Edgar Allan Poe.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd like to see the Chantry through the eyes of Edgar Allan Poe.

That's easy.  Just put a coffin lid over your face.

[TEWR]

Here's my one on blood magic:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Welp, I feel the need to rant about blood magic, only because it's 4 a.m where I am and I can't sleep. So, you know, I need something to pass the time by.
Blood Magic is not inherently evil. It has power yes, but so does a sword, a crossbow, a ballista, a gun, etc. It is only a tool. Tools are deemed good or evil by the methods in which they are utilized. The saying "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" can apply here if changed slightly:

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Evil and heartless mages kill people.

The Chantry forbids it (imo and Avernus', foolishly so) because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. Not only that, they claim to know what Andraste meant by her words "Magic must serve man, not rule over him". The problem with this phrase is that there is more than one meaning to it, and only Andraste knew what she meant. There are three meanings that spring to mind:

• The Andrastian belief that mages are dangerous and should be corralled like animals.
  
  
  
• Magic should be used to help the people (the Tevinter way of it)
  
  
  
• Magic should not influence the mind of a mage. With great power comes great responsibility. This, I feel, is what Andraste truly meant, along with the Tevinter interpretation.

Now, there are different types of Blood Magic. There's the powerful, mind controlling kind we all know and talk about. But there are less well known ways of utilizing blood magic.

The first that springs to mind is the Joining ritual. Consuming Darkspawn blood mixed magically with lyrium and Archdemon blood is Blood Magic. Now people will try to dispute this fact saying "Blood + Magic =/= Blood Magic."

However, they are wrong. The Reaver specialization's Codex says that by consuming Dragon's blood and gaining abilities, it is a definite form of Blood Magic. Blood Magic isn't about only using your blood for power. It's also about gaining power from blood. The same rules that apply to the Reaver spec. apply to the Grey Warden Joining ritual. We also know that the Grey Wardens employ blood magic because it helps to kill the Darkspawn quicker. And with proper ethical research, great strides can and have been made into researching more effective ways of understanding the Darkspawn (see the Avernus quest in DA2 if you let not only Avernus live while continuing ethical research, but spared the Architect)

Secondly, there is the Scrying from Witch Hunt. When Finn asks for Ariane's blood, you can call him out on if it's Blood Magic or not. He says it is. By using her blood, they gain the ability to find the Lights of Arlathan.

Third, we have phylacteries. Possibly one of the biggest, if not the biggest, hypocrisies the Chantry is made of. Templars take the blood of a mage and seal it in a vial. Should that mage escape, they use the phylactery to track him/her down. They gain the ability to find the mage in a population of enormous sizes. This is Blood Magic, which the Chantry condones as long as they are using it. Or perhaps they refuse to admit that they are wrong and it is blood magic.

Now, let's examine how to learn Blood Magic. Anders says in Dragon Age 2 to Merrill, and I'm paraphrasing here:

• "Tell me you just cut your wrist on accident and discovered blood magic."

which implies that any mage can stumble across the power of blood magic, but without proper training it is useless. He also states in a banter with Fenris (again, paraphrasing):

• "You have to look a demon in the eye to learn blood magic"

which seems to me to mean that demons can teach a mage how to properly use blood magic. Again, any mage can stumble across its' powers, but without training it is useless.

Mages can also learn Blood Magic from a book, thus eliminating/mitigating the risk of consorting with a demon or cutting your wrists too deeply. Jowan is a case in point, as he learned Blood Magic from a book. He tells you he only skimmed a little bit of a book and dabbled. The irony in this situation is that the Chantry forbids Blood Magic learning, yet the Circle of Ferelden kept books on the subject, which Irving confiscated later on. Whether they were known to be there is a mystery, but if they were the Chantry is operating on some faulty logic. A line I came up with and used a lot regarding this scenario is as follows:

You can teach a man that bombs are dangerous without giving him a blueprint of how to make said bomb.

Next, let's examine a comprehensive list (to the best of my knowledge) of known blood mages and determine whether they fall into the good, evil, or neutral category.

• Uldred- Bat**** insane Blood Mage who almost destroyed the Circle, and in turn was possessed (or merged willingly?) with a Pride demon. EVIL.
  
  
  
• Jowan - A kind and good, albeit bumbling, mage who didn't want his emotions torn away from him. He was in love with Lily, and because he dabbled in blood magic he would've been made Tranquil? I can understand what he did. A lot of people blame the whole Arl of Redcliffe quest on him, but I don't see that as the case. I don't remember whether I claimed he was innocent or guilty in another thread that talked about blood mages, but I feel if you're going to blame Jowan, so too must you blame Isolde and Loghain. However, one could argue that Connor's deal with the demon was the only thing that kept Eamon alive. If he had died, the Wardens would've been royally screwed.
  
  
  
• Anders - Good. You have the option of making him a Blood Mage in Awakening, and your Warden can even address this fact in Amaranthine. This inevitably makes him a Blood Mage, as the storyline then considers it canon. However, Anders in DA2 views BM as bad, no doubt due to his Andrastian beliefs. So one can assume that sometime between Awakening and DA2, if you made him a BM, he ceased practicing the arcane art.
  
  
  
• Merrill - Possibly one of the smartest mages out there. She is able to recognize that all Fade spirits are dangerous and there is no separation of them. She practices her BM safely, and only uses her blood. That is in itself the mark of a good BM. She even knows how to protect herself in the Fade against spirits, saying that the only thing you can believe is yourself. The only time she betrays you is in Feynriel's quest in his mind, and that's only because the demon forced her to betray you much like the Sloth demon's minions in Broken Circle did to some of your companions by giving them a false reality. She even addresses this afterwards. GOOD.
  
  
  
• Quentin - Evil and bat**** insane. I don't need to give anymore details on it. We know the deal. He went insane after his wife died. I kinda feel sympathy for him, but not really.
  
  
  
• Gascard - sort of a grey area himself. He helps Hawke, but only so he can kill Quentin and learn necromancy (which wasn't that available in the Spirit school?). If you convince him that what he's doing is a bad move, he relents on Blood Magic and vows to live a better life, assuming you let him live. Not many blood mages get a second chance, so I'll place him in the neutral area.
  
  
  
• Alain - Good. He didn't really use it for anything other than freeing the hostage.
  
  
  
• Decimus - bat**** insane. Had a nice wavy hair thing going in the scene where you meet him though. Evil
  
  
  
• Grace - sane at first. Then goes bat**** insane. Or was possessed prior to that event, since you fight an Abomination of her. So evil
  
  
  
• Orsino - Good, albeit misguided.  Orsino had been fighting Meredith since Year 1 of Hawke's tenure within Kirkwall (Varric says "That's also when the trouble began with the mages"). And in Act 3, Meredith squeezes harder and harder, and forces more mages to undergo the Rite of Tranquility. Mages that have passed their Harrowing. She is growing increasingly paranoid and insane, and Orsino fights back within his power. After Anders plays Jenga with the Chantry, the Mage-Templar conflict now spirals into a full-blown war. Meredith called the Right of Annulment not because Elthina was killed, but because she could. She had wanted to call it for a long time, and she realized then that she could. So she did.
  
  
  
• To separate this for easier reading: Now I don't see Orsino's use of Blood Magic at the end as stupid. Rather, I see it as the act of a desperate man who is taking on an army with only a few handfuls of mages, most of whom utilize magic that the Templars are able to nullify. Was it stupid? Undoubtably. Was it understandable? Completely. The problem with that fight with the Templars beforehand was that it was too easy, so that gave us the illusion that Orsino was acting irrationally without reason. So I can't fault Orsino for thinking he only had one option left.

 Now finally, we must examine the origins of Blood Magic. We have conflicting sources on the matter. We have:

• 
  
• Blood Magic came from the Old Gods.
  
  
  
• Blood Magic was taught to mages by demons.
  
  
  
• Blood Magic was first used by the elves of Arlathan and then the Tevinter Imperium took that knowledge for themselves.

We don't know which, if any, is the true scenario. For all we know some mage picked up a book entitled Blood Magic and You: A Beginner's Guide On How to Properly Slit Your Wrists

So, in closing to this long rant that took me 45 minutes to type out and think on, blood magic is not inherently evil. It can be used for evil purposes, but that does not make it evil. If it did, then using a gun should be considered evil and banned forever. It's a tool. Nothing more.

anything you want me to elaborate on people, feel free to ask and I shall try my best.

 


I'd also like to say that I believe blood magic could be used medicinally to control the flow of blood in people who are seriously injured. But since the Chantry forbids blood magic, no one would ever find out.


Now for my Chantry comparison one. This may be incomplete, and I'm always open to more stuff to add to it:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To try and revive this thread before it dies completely (why do my posts always temporarily kill a thread, at best? =P), I'd also like to point out that religion is a means to attain power. I'd like to quote Edgar Allan Poe here if I may:


“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry”
wise words from a great man. Let's try to pinpoint where the Chantry falls to these five things.

• Fraud - The Chantry seems on the outside to be an ideal established religion. They do good deeds and protect its' citizens. But how many of these good deeds are simply done to shroud over their evil acts? Like the Exalted March of the Dales. I find it hard to believe that the Dalish Elves of that time would've assaulted anyone on purpose and without provocation. They were thankful that the people gave them land again. Land that had been forcibly taken from them by the Tevinter Imperium. I doubt they would've jeopardized their status for any reason. We also know that the Chantry sent missionaries to convert the Dalish elves, which they refused to do because they wanted to worship their own religion. So the missionaries left, but then returned to forcibly convert them. Because as we all know, the Chantry's dogma states that the Chant of Light must be sung from the four corners of the world. And they have no qualms about how they go about achieving that. Mass murder seems to fit in well with their morality. Good to know. So the Dalish fought back in defense. Had the other nations not gotten involved with this conflict, the Dalish could've won, because Orlais had just survived a Blight and was incredibly weak at this time. Who knows, maybe they wanted their land back because it was still in good health. Also, the elves supposedly remained neutral throughout that Blight (imo a stupid maneuver because it's a f****** Blight. not a war). So fraud, check.
  
  
• Fear - The Chantry fears mages because they are born with something that is in their DNA. They fear them because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. They fear them because of spirits. So they gather them up and take them to the Circle to teach them how to properly defend against their magic (which the Dalish know how to do better). But they also indoctrinate the mages into thinking what they were born with is a curse from the Maker. I refer you to the one female mage who keeps praying for a sword of mercy to come, because she actually believes what she has is solely a curse. It is both a gift and a curse. As is most of what humanity has. Free will. Love. I could go on. Anyway, the Chantry also teaches the populus to fear mages. Most do, yet some believe that mages can be good people and worthy of respect (Gregoir, Leandra, Ser Maarevar Carver, Alistair, etc.). The Chantry would be content with making sure the world fears mages and sees them as less than human. Fear. A poison so foul it corrupts the very mind's rational thinking. They fear mages and make sure that everyone else does too. If a mage runs away from the Circle, he is automatically branded maleficar. All apostates are maleficar to them, and must be delivered "mercy". And in regards to the elves, they purposely left out verses dealing with Shartan. Why? I don't know for certain, but my guess is that after the Exalted March of the Dales they wanted to make sure people saw them as second-class citizens. Shartan fought with Andraste, yet they won't acknowledge him in their precious Chant.
  
  
• Greed - The Chantry controls lyrium as a means to keep a tight leash on the Templars. They don't want to lose their military, so they sure they're addicted to the lyrium. Once they're addicted, they're almost forced to remain within their ranks. If they leave, the withdrawal could kill them. One could also argue that they only "convert" other people so they can become more dominant. It has nothing to do with the Maker. It's all about influence over the world.
  
  
• Imagination and Poetry - These two go hand in hand to the Chant of Light. The Chant of Light is all fluff and poetic wording. The Golden City being corrupted by the hubris of the Tevinter mages seems to be a lie. Wynne states that it could all be allegory. What it could be an allegory to, I cannot say (I haven't brushed up on my literature studies for a while. I know what an allegory is, just what it this one is an allegory to I don't know). It's a beautiful piece of literary work, but as Merrill says it has a lot of holes in it. Aveline, an atheist or a skeptical believer, says that it's pretty and maybe that's all it needs to be.

If anyone would like to add more to these, feel free. I'll then edit your posts in and give credit where credit is due.

 



And there you have it. Those are my rants.