4350 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I'd also like to state that I support the Circle, so don't misread the Fear portion as me saying it's not necessary.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mai 2011 - 05:53 .

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd like to see the Chantry through the eyes of Edgar Allan Poe.

That's easy.  Just put a coffin lid over your face.

Just wait, sooner or later a Templar will help with that.

[SkittlesKat96]

 Yeah personally I wanted compromise...Anders (that fool lol) and the Lyrium idol that made Meredith go crazy pretty much ruined the chances of compromise

Anders wanted mages to be completely free and Meredith has a massive grudge against mages and wants to have them all executed because of all the trouble they are causing. Anders thought he was saving the mages from a slow and worser death and wanted to pit the mages against the templars for their freedom (maybe he was right and things could have been worse but you don't just assume things like that plus he destroyed the chantry which wasn't a very good thing to do)

[HTTP 404]

As a mage, I sided with the mages and killed anders.. I thought that was the most balanced approach.

[DKJaigen]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

 Yeah personally I wanted compromise...Anders (that fool lol) and the Lyrium idol that made Meredith go crazy pretty much ruined the chances of compromise

Anders wanted mages to be completely free and Meredith has a massive grudge against mages and wants to have them all executed because of all the trouble they are causing. Anders thought he was saving the mages from a slow and worser death and wanted to pit the mages against the templars for their freedom (maybe he was right and things could have been worse but you don't just assume things like that plus he destroyed the chantry which wasn't a very good thing to do)

The problem sometimes their is no chance for compromise. the chantry and the templars like the way it is now and they hold all the power. It would be similar saying to a dictator to step down peacefully.its simply not going to happen

[IanPolaris]

DKJaigen wrote...
The problem sometimes their is no chance for compromise. the chantry and the templars like the way it is now and they hold all the power. It would be similar saying to a dictator to step down peacefully.its simply not going to happen

Indeed which is always why I found it bitterly ironic when GC Ethina pled for the chance of compromise and said that Orsino was not an unreasonable person.  Here's a clue-tidbit you Chantry idiot:  If the side with the power (that's Meredith) either isn't willing or isn;'t forced to compromise (and she isn't forced to because you refuse to do YOUR JOB you old bat), then no compromise is possible.

Heinlein was quite right when he said that war and violence was used to solve more problems than any other way (and more permanently too) in all of human history (see Starship Troopers).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Meredith doesn't have anymore power than Orsino for as long as the Grand Cleric wont let her get the RoA.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith doesn't have anymore power than Orsino for as long as the Grand Cleric wont let her get the RoA.

Bull.  Meredith has complete power over the mages short of killing them all. Only then does she have to get Elthina's OK.

Yeah, shocking I know.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith doesn't have anymore power than Orsino for as long as the Grand Cleric wont let her get the RoA.

Bull.  Meredith has complete power over the mages short of killing them all. Only then does she have to get Elthina's OK.

Yeah, shocking I know.

-Polaris

Oh, I guess that is why she didn't investigate, since she had full power and all.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith doesn't have anymore power than Orsino for as long as the Grand Cleric wont let her get the RoA.

Bull.  Meredith has complete power over the mages short of killing them all. Only then does she have to get Elthina's OK.

Yeah, shocking I know.

-Polaris

Oh, I guess that is why she didn't investigate, since she had full power and all.

She wanted to murder all mages in the circle from the start of Act 3.  It was the one thing she didn't have the point to do.  The ONE thing.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith doesn't have anymore power than Orsino for as long as the Grand Cleric wont let her get the RoA.

Bull.  Meredith has complete power over the mages short of killing them all. Only then does she have to get Elthina's OK.

Yeah, shocking I know.

-Polaris

Oh, I guess that is why she didn't investigate, since she had full power and all.

She wanted to murder all mages in the circle from the start of Act 3.  It was the one thing she didn't have the point to do.  The ONE thing.

-Polaris

SHe couldn't investigate the tower for blood magic either, because Orsino denied her. The only thing she could do, was restricting the mages to their quarters, in the hope of the pressure would make the blood mages crack.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SHe couldn't investigate the tower for blood magic either, because Orsino denied her. The only thing she could do, was restricting the mages to their quarters, in the hope of the pressure would make the blood mages crack.

Orsino didn't deny her.  The Grand Cleric did.  Bethany in her letters (and established lore) makes it clear that Templars can go whereever they like and do whatever they want to mages (certainly Ser Alrik proves that point) without answering to any mage (only their superiors in the Templars and/or Chantry).

-Polaris

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
I find it funny that people are all "What about the lives that will be lost in war due to Anders' actions". When in fact, he is not responsible for the war at all.

Did he want one? Certainly. Were his actions provocative? Definitely.

But the Kirkwall Rebellion is swiftly put down, no matter what side you choose. The mages flee en masse or are executed, but either way it's a failure.

There is no "Kirkwall Rebellion". There's just the Kirkwall massacre, and it is up to Hawke whether anyone lives. Putting aside what happenes globally, the mages in Kirkwall die because of what Anders did.

News of this spectacular flop reaches the other circles, and at this point they have two options: keep living their lives, or raise some hell. They choose the latter, of their own volition. Anders didn't make them, and the templars didn't attack them. Mages across Thedas chose to rebel, they struck the first blow and they are responsible for their own actions. You can't lay the blame on Anders, or anyone else for that matter.

You can absolutely lay the blame on Anders, given that the massacre wouldn't have happened in Kirkwall without him. More broadly, I don't recall we have any clue who struck first at all, or what led to the mages rebelling exactly, i.e. whether it was "Freedom!" or increased templar oppression as a result of the alleged murder of a Grand Cleric.

[Rifneno]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

 Yeah personally I wanted compromise...Anders (that fool lol) and the Lyrium idol that made Meredith go crazy pretty much ruined the chances of compromise

Anders wanted mages to be completely free and Meredith has a massive grudge against mages and wants to have them all executed because of all the trouble they are causing. Anders thought he was saving the mages from a slow and worser death and wanted to pit the mages against the templars for their freedom (maybe he was right and things could have been worse but you don't just assume things like that plus he destroyed the chantry which wasn't a very good thing to do)

There was NEVER a chance for compromise.  You'd have better luck with peace in the Middle East.  The Chantry's tyranny has lasted a thousand years.  Everybody that thinks there was even the slightest chance of a peaceful compromise needs to think about how long this has been going on.  The continued oppression hasn't been going on for 4 times as long as the United States has existed because no one in the many Chantry-ruled countries ever said "okay let's sit down and hash this out."

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

There is no "Kirkwall Rebellion". There's just the Kirkwall massacre, and it is up to Hawke whether anyone lives. Putting aside what happenes globally, the mages in Kirkwall die because of what Anders did.

As if they had much of a life to lose.  I don't know about you, but given the choice between living as a templar prisoner in the Gallows or fighting and at least having a shot at freedom, I'd take the latter in a heartbeat.

And it's funny you italicize "anyone."  Because it's flat out not true.  Even if Hawke sides with the templars, there ARE survivors that managed to escape.  That's how the other Circles find out what happened.  If Hawke sides with the mages, Varric specifically says "and many lived to tell the tale."

You can absolutely lay the blame on Anders, given that the massacre wouldn't have happened in Kirkwall without him. More broadly, I don't recall we have any clue who struck first at all, or what led to the mages rebelling exactly, i.e. whether it was "Freedom!" or increased templar oppression as a result of the alleged murder of a Grand Cleric. 

I don't recall the exact wording of the templar ending, but I know in the mage ending Varric says Kirkwall showed "the mighty templars could be defied."  It's implied they rebelled because the illusion that the templars are unbeatable was shattered, and realizing they had at least a chance at winning a rebellion they jumped upon it.

[IanPolaris]

Rif,

Honestly the epilogs make a lot more sense if Hawke is a mage and sides with mages. In fact I am almost certain that if there is a DA3, the default Hawke will be just that: A bloodmage who sided with the mages. Otherwise it's not at all clear that any mages did survive to tell the other circles or that the Templars could be defied. More sloppy writing to make sure that our choices couldn't hose Bioware's story.

-Polaris

[HSHAW]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rif,

Honestly the epilogs make a lot more sense if Hawke is a mage and sides with mages. In fact I am almost certain that if there is a DA3, the default Hawke will be just that: A bloodmage who sided with the mages. Otherwise it's not at all clear that any mages did survive to tell the other circles or that the Templars could be defied. More sloppy writing to make sure that our choices couldn't hose Bioware's story.

-Polaris

Isn't the default Hawke a mage?

Also, why does it make more sense for Hawke to be a blood mage?

[shedevil3001]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I find it funny that people are all "What about the lives that will be lost in war due to Anders' actions". When in fact, he is not responsible for the war at all.

Did he want one? Certainly. Were his actions provocative? Definitely.

But the Kirkwall Rebellion is swiftly put down, no matter what side you choose. The mages flee en masse or are executed, but either way it's a failure.

There is no "Kirkwall Rebellion". There's just the Kirkwall massacre, and it is up to Hawke whether anyone lives. Putting aside what happenes globally, the mages in Kirkwall die because of what Anders did.

News of this spectacular flop reaches the other circles, and at this point they have two options: keep living their lives, or raise some hell. They choose the latter, of their own volition. Anders didn't make them, and the templars didn't attack them. Mages across Thedas chose to rebel, they struck the first blow and they are responsible for their own actions. You can't lay the blame on Anders, or anyone else for that matter.

You can absolutely lay the blame on Anders, given that the massacre wouldn't have happened in Kirkwall without him. More broadly, I don't recall we have any clue who struck first at all, or what led to the mages rebelling exactly, i.e. whether it was "Freedom!" or increased templar oppression as a result of the alleged murder of a Grand Cleric.

i disagree im sorry but meredith was just as much to blame and if she wasnt so tight on a leash with mages anders wouldnt have needed to take drastic measures, meredith was obbsessed with all mages been blood mages even her tranquil puppet tells you this so eventually merediths craziness would of caused the mages to stand up and fight even if anders never did what he did, with freedom there will always be casualties and no one in the game was blameless of killing innocents (isabella with her relic is responsible for the qunari attacking kirkwall many innocents died because of her, merril and her blood magic gets her keeper and if you dont choose the right dialogue her clan killed, orsino hides blood mages instead of turning them in which leads to more trouble and meredith and her craziness gets alot of innocent mages killed, also there are just as many corrupted templars that abuse mages as there are mages turning to blood magic. so there is no right or wrong side in this game it all comes down to personal preference 

Modifié par shedevil3001, 06 mai 2011 - 11:53 .

[IanPolaris]

HSHAW wrote...

Isn't the default Hawke a mage?

Also, why does it make more sense for Hawke to be a blood mage?

I don't think there is a default Hawke (yet).  I am almost certain though that if/when there is one, he will be a mage.

Why bloodmage?  Given the amount of sheer exposure (and I think Merrill will be the default LI), I think it makes sense....and it also neatly explains why the Chantry Seekers would leap to the conclusion that this was all some nefarious plot by Hawke.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

Isn't the default Hawke a mage?

Also, why does it make more sense for Hawke to be a blood mage?

I don't think there is a default Hawke (yet).  I am almost certain though that if/when there is one, he will be a mage.

Why bloodmage?  Given the amount of sheer exposure (and I think Merrill will be the default LI), I think it makes sense....and it also neatly explains why the Chantry Seekers would leap to the conclusion that this was all some nefarious plot by Hawke.

-Polaris

I don't think Merrill will be the default romance (though if she was I sure as hell wouldn't be complaining. Look at my sig).

I think they may try and do something that takes into account who you romanced and they play a part in the story. They were able to get Morrigan, Leliana, Alistair and Zevran to recognize if you pursued a romance with them in DLC/DA2. I'm willing to bet that they'll one-up that.

As for the blood mage thing, it would make sense but Hawke's an apostate. That immediately means to the Chantry that he's spreading subversion against the Chantry. To them, all apostates = maleficarum.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I don't think Merrill will be the default romance (though if she was I sure as hell wouldn't be complaining. Look at my sig).

Well I am guessing of course, so if everyone will indulge me, I'll guess some more.  I think Merrill will be the default LI because of all the LIs introduced in DA2, she seems to have been the best received/most played.  Bioware can (and does) track this sort of game data via the internet.  That's why I think Merrill will be the default LI.  If your Hawke had a different LI, I don't think that would be too hard to code in.

I think they may try and do something that takes into account who you romanced and they play a part in the story. They were able to get Morrigan, Leliana, Alistair and Zevran to recognize if you pursued a romance with them in DLC/DA2. I'm willing to bet that they'll one-up that.

I'm sure they will, but I do think there will be a default LI.  At a guess, I think it will be Merrill for the guys and Anders for the Girls.

As for the blood mage thing, it would make sense but Hawke's an apostate. That immediately means to the Chantry that he's spreading subversion against the Chantry. To them, all apostates = maleficarum.

True that, but even hard-line chantry people do recognize the difference (if grudgingly) between apostates and malificarum.  I think Hawke being an open Malificarum and yet NOT being evil would be particularly hard for the Seekers to swallow (and would neatly explain Cassandra's initial outrage and eventual disbelief).  If so, I think a little (or more than a little) humble pie would be good for the Chantry and it's seekers given how badly they BOTCHED their job in Kirkwall.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

most apostates=maleficarum. Not all. If they truely believed all apostates were malificarum, they would have executed Bethany the moment she surrendered herself.

They are probably also gonna make multiple "default" Hawkes. Just like the Warden. Add to that they will let you import your costum Hawke aswell, and you get yourself a nice mix of "what if"s.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 mai 2011 - 12:30 .

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Well I am guessing of course, so if everyone will indulge me, I'll guess some more.  I think Merrill will be the default LI because of all the LIs introduced in DA2, she seems to have been the best received/most played.  Bioware can (and does) track this sort of game data via the internet.  That's why I think Merrill will be the default LI.  If your Hawke had a different LI, I don't think that would be too hard to code in.

.

Ok I can see that. Like how DA2 gave you the choice between 3 different Origins tales, DA3 may give you something similar and your romance is preset? Is that pretty much what you mean?

I'm sure they will, but I do think there will be a default LI.  At a guess, I think it will be Merrill for the guys and Anders for the Girls.

Hmm.... that makes sense. Merrill and Anders had a story that affected many people in their companion quests. Fenris' only affected himself, and Isabella's wasn't too critical.

True that, but even hard-line chantry people do recognize the difference (if grudgingly) between apostates and malificarum.  I think Hawke being an open Malificarum and yet NOT being evil would be particularly hard for the Seekers to swallow (and would neatly explain Cassandra's initial outrage and eventual disbelief).  If so, I think a little (or more than a little) humble pie would be good for the Chantry and it's seekers given how badly they BOTCHED their job in Kirkwall.

-Polaris

I agree. Hell they probably had a problem with Merrill. The only evil she ever does is picking other peoples' flowers.

[mousestalker]

One salient fact that has been overlooked hitherto is that Meredith has the classic icy blonde hitchcockian hotness. Orsino looks like a Sesame Street character. One of the rules of the Interwebz is 'when in doubt, go with the hot chick'. I think that settles the matter right there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

mousestalker wrote...

One salient fact that has been overlooked hitherto is that Meredith has the classic icy blonde hitchcockian hotness. Orsino looks like a Sesame Street character. One of the rules of the Interwebz is 'when in doubt, go with the hot chick'. I think that settles the matter right there.

... Did you just call Meredith hot?...