4350 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

She says it herself in her letter to you.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Is there ever any proof that Meredith tranquilizes mages that act out? Karl is the only one I can remember, but that's one mage in six years.

Three of the recaptured Starkhaven mages are randomly chosen to be Tranquilized, IIRC.

Those aren't illegal however. The Starkhaven mages had tried to escape, and had to be punished. It is legal to use the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment for mages who prove themselves unwilling to serve the Circle.

As far as I know, if a mage has passes his Harrowing, it's against Chanrty law to Tranquilize him.

It is. And it isn't. An apprentice can be tranquilized, on the base of dubious chances of succes in the Harrowing. That is all it takes. A mage however, has passed his Harrowing, and is therefore not under suspecion of failing it (durr). However if the mage was to do some criminal activities, like trying to escape the tower, the Rite can be used as punishment of such a mage. In all cases of the use of the Rite the First Enchanter have to give the permission for it to take place though.

[TEWR]

you can tranquil a Harrowed mage, but you better have a damned good reason for doing so. Otherwise, what you're doing is illegal

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mai 2011 - 02:30 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...

She says it herself in her letter to you.

-Polaris

Huh.  I'll have to load up my playthrough that had Bethany taken into the Circle and read that letter. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

I don't understand threads like this. DA2 is supposed to be an RPG in which you can take a side (not that it matters - but that's another problem).

My blood mage had very good reasons to support Meredith. It's the only way up. Blood mages need to get smarter and gain influence by getting themselves better positions in society. Much like infiltration. The mad abomination trick doesn't really help their cause.

I also have a non-blood mage supporting Meredith. She thinks that it is a good idea for mages to get better positions and if Meredith provides a way up then so be it. She also believes that other non-mages should do the same. It's the most sensible solution to fight blood mages and keep or get the normal mages respected.

I can also dream up other motivations which don't support Meredith. But any choice you make in the game is a valid one for the character you control.

If only choices mattered...

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 mai 2011 - 02:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

The problem with DA2 is that it cannot end well. There are only two bad endings. 

Hell, you can't stop the killer, you can't save your mother, you can't prevent the Qunari attack, you can't save or stop Anders, you can't keep your sibling free and alive...  etc, etc, etc, etc...

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 06 mai 2011 - 02:57 .

[Augustei]

No, Cullen says the reason that the Hawkes aren't being arrested is
because Bethany turned herself in - Cullen never mentions anything
abount her being a lady amell and having pull with the viscount and he
never says they would have killed them

EDIT: Yeah I never picked the Diplomatic tree so yeah idk

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 06 mai 2011 - 03:11 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

most apostates=maleficarum. Not all. If they truely believed all apostates were malificarum, they would have executed Bethany the moment she surrendered herself.

Actually Meredith wanted to, but Bethany was a Lady Amell and had pull with the Viscount.  Cullen says this explicitly as the only reason why Bethany isn't being killed outright and you along with her for harboring her.  It's another real Chantry Hallmark moment that.

It's also why the put her through the harrowing cold-turkey and with no prep.  The Templars were hoping she'd fail.

-Polaris

No, Cullen says the reason that the Hawkes aren't being arrested is because Bethany turned herself in - Cullen never mentions anything abount her being a lady amell and having pull with the viscount and he never says they would have killed them

Evidently there's another dialogue option, according to Polaris. 

Funny how your choices don't matter much if at all to the plot, to the big things, but the reality of what's going on in other characters' heads and their motivations and emotions can change entirely based on which tiny dialogue choices you make in the moment.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 06 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

You can absolutely lay the blame on Anders, given that the massacre wouldn't have happened in Kirkwall without him.

I don't know that this is absolutely true.  Meredith wanted to do an RoA way before Anders blew up the Chantry.  We don't know if she would have been granted the authority right then.  The way things were going though, I'm pretty sure more and more mages would have cracked under the pressure until she could truly justify it to Elthina and the Divine.  I believe it was just a matter of time - remember the idol's influence was hardly likely to get less over time and Meredith wasn't likely to suddenly let up on the mages.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

I don't know that this is absolutely true.  Meredith wanted to do an RoA way before Anders blew up the Chantry.  We don't know if she would have been granted the authority right then.  The way things were going though, I'm pretty sure more and more mages would have cracked under the pressure until she could truly justify it to Elthina and the Divine.  I believe it was just a matter of time - remember the idol's influence was hardly likely to get less over time and Meredith wasn't likely to suddenly let up on the mages.

Elthina would never give her the okay to do it.  However Elthina is an old woman and as we've been told, in the absence of a grand cleric, the knight commander has sole authority to call for a right of annulment.  It is indeed only a matter of time until the inevitable happens and Meredith calls for the annulment over Elthina's corpse.  Whether it's by an apostate bomb, choking on an apple, or a heartattack, unless the much younger Meredith dies before Elthina it is only a matter of time until the right of annulment is made.

[GavrielKay]

mousestalker wrote...

She is Junoesque. She has the unobtainable hauteur that makes you want to break down her barriers and reduce her to begging for mercy. She has the maturity to be in touch with her inner passions. She has the experience to know exactly what she wants and force you to give it to her.

Meredith is hawt.  

Geez, I've seen several of your posts to that effect.  

I find her mean spirited, bigoted, harsh and evil.  I couldn't begin to find the slightest thing in her to find intriguing other than what her blood might looked like sprayed across the wall. 

Even before anything truly bad happens, she gives Hawke the evil eye for having the nerve to kill the Arishok and win the love of the nobles.  This is not a good woman by any definition I use.

[blothulfur]

I think she was driven insane not by the lyrium idol but by the endless whining of the mages that echoes throughout the vaulted halls of the gallows year in and year out.

At least under the Qun they've got no tongues and are quieter, though the murmuring does get quite eery.

[GavrielKay]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Funny how your choices don't matter much if at all to the plot, to the big things, but the reality of what's going on in other characters' heads and their motivations and emotions can change entirely based on which tiny dialogue choices you make in the moment.

Indeed.  I don't think you'd even know that Meredith had requested the RoA unless you happen to talk to Cullen in a non-quest dialog.  At least I seem to recall getting that bit of conversation by randomly testing whether he would talk when he didn't have a quest indicator.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wasn't really talking about the Annulment situation. More about the broader situation.

How do you separate the end result of supporting the Templars from the rest?  It's pretty obvious that it's going that way.  Meredith wants to do it all through act 3.

[TEWR]

I've seen people use the whole Broken Circle thing as proof that a Knight Commander needs to seek approval for a RoA when there's no Grand Cleric present. And then call Meredith's actions a plot hole or a retcon or what have you


I think people are forgetting one thing. We never once met a Grand Cleric that Gregoir answered to. Just because we don't see one does not mean there is no Grand Cleric. He said he sent word to Denerim. For all we know he answers to Denerim's Grand Cleric.

what's the saying I've seen people use? Absence of proof is not proof of absence?

[lrrose]

To answer GavirelKay's question about how one can support the Templars without supporting annulment.  My "canon" Hawke was ready to support the Right of Annulment until he realized just how delusional Meredith was and sided with the mages at the end.

Modifié par lrrose, 06 mai 2011 - 03:50 .

[LobselVith8]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't understand threads like this. DA2 is supposed to be an RPG in which you can take a side (not that it matters - but that's another problem).

It's a discussion over what people think is the correct choice to make - it's no different than discussions between Libertarians and Loyalists debating what path the Circles of Magi should take, or Loghain debating with Cailan whether Orlesians should be trusted to fight against the darkspawn and not stab them in the back when all is said and done.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

My blood mage had very good reasons to support Meredith. It's the only way up. Blood mages need to get smarter and gain influence by getting themselves better positions in society. Much like infiltration. The mad abomination trick doesn't really help their cause.

I'd question this as an issue of survival. If Hawke is an apostate, why he is going to trust that Knight-Commander Meredith isn't going to try to kill him when all is said and done? Meredith is asking Hawke's help in killing all the mages because they're mages, and the people will "demand blood" because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina. How does helping an insane Knight-Commander who wants to kill all the mages because of the fact that they are mages help you when you're a mage, and she'll likely kill you, too, for being one?

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I also have a non-blood mage supporting Meredith. She thinks that it is a good idea for mages to get better positions and if Meredith provides a way up then so be it. She also believes that other non-mages should do the same. It's the most sensible solution to fight blood mages and keep or get the normal mages respected.

What good is the role of Viscount going to be in an area that is ruled in all but name by the templars? The Order of Templars control eastern Thedas, and Kirkwall is their base of operations. All the Viscounts do what the templars tell them to do, because the last one who tried to go against them was executed for it. What difference will Hawke make if he can't do anything that goes against what the templars want?

[TEWR]

some of my Hawkes should've been loaded into a cannon.

[GavrielKay]

lrrose wrote...

To answer GavirelKay's question about how one can support the Templars without supporting annulment.  My "canon" Hawke was ready to support the Right of Annulment until he realized just how delusional Meredith was and sided with the mages at the end.

Fair enough.  What made you support the RoA up until then?

There've been number of accusations thrown out that deciding the Templars are all evil based on a few isn't any better than deciding the mages are all guilty.  My answer to that would be that we aren't asked to systematically wipe out the Templars based on our flimsy evidence - so it never comes into play whether the rest should get the benefit of the doubt.  Saying the evidence is flimsy on both sides is fine, and a case can be made for that position - but it doesn't matter - only one side is trying to convince you that it is "right" to wipe out the other.

[lrrose]

Because my Hawke was pissed following the whole Quentin debacle and thought that Meredith was sane and had proof that the Circle was corrupt.

I guess a little "timeline" of my Hawke's views is in order:

• Starts out supporting mage freedom (He is a mage if you are curious)
• Once Quentin kills his mother, realizes that templars are needed to stop murderers like Quentin
• He believed that Orsino wanted to start a rebellion, sided with Meredith in the beginning of Act III, and told Leliana that an Exalted March is needed to stop the mages from rebelling
• After On the Loose, he let Anders speak his mind during the end conversation with Meredith and realized that Anders had a point when he said that Huon and Evelina might not have turned to blood magic and abominationhood respectively if they weren't being treated like prisoners.
• After Best Served Cold, he realized that Meredith is just looking for an excuse to Annul the Circle and her accusations against the Circle was paranoia
• He defended the mages against what he believed was an unjust Right of Annulment
• The mages misinterpreted his support as a call to rebellion

Modifié par lrrose, 06 mai 2011 - 04:13 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Of course they wanted her to fail. She was an appostate who had defied their rules. They wanted to make a point that only the Circle trains their Mages the right way.

Luckily, Bethany had her trainning from an ex-circle mage. So she would have recieved largely the same trainning as the other Circle mages (Harrowing barred I'm presumming).

Malcolm didn't met Leandra as a Circle mage, he was an apostate posing as a mercenary who travelled to Kirkwall on business.

Bethany notes in her letter that they put her through the Harrowing as soon as she arrived in the Gallows. Interpret that as you like.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Those aren't illegal however. The Starkhaven mages had tried to escape, and had to be punished. It is legal to use the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment for mages who prove themselves unwilling to serve the Circle.

David Gaider had stated that Anders couldn't be made tranquil despite running away because he could only be killed or made tranquil if they proved he was a maleficar and not merely an apostate.

[LobselVith8]

DKJaigen wrote...

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

 Yeah personally I wanted compromise...Anders (that fool lol) and the Lyrium idol that made Meredith go crazy pretty much ruined the chances of compromise

Anders wanted mages to be completely free and Meredith has a massive grudge against mages and wants to have them all executed because of all the trouble they are causing. Anders thought he was saving the mages from a slow and worser death and wanted to pit the mages against the templars for their freedom (maybe he was right and things could have been worse but you don't just assume things like that plus he destroyed the chantry which wasn't a very good thing to do)

The problem sometimes their is no chance for compromise. the chantry and the templars like the way it is now and they hold all the power. It would be similar saying to a dictator to step down peacefully.its simply not going to happen

That's how developer Michael Hamilton explained the Chantry turning down the Magi boon:

Michael Hamilton wrote...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

Really think about what you're saying.

"I asked and they said no!"

Why would the dictatorship over the mages compromise with those they control? What could the mages say to those who believe they should rule over mages by divine right?

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

lrrose wrote...

To answer GavirelKay's question about how one can support the Templars without supporting annulment.  My "canon" Hawke was ready to support the Right of Annulment until he realized just how delusional Meredith was and sided with the mages at the end.

Fair enough.  What made you support the RoA up until then?

There've been number of accusations thrown out that deciding the Templars are all evil based on a few isn't any better than deciding the mages are all guilty.  My answer to that would be that we aren't asked to systematically wipe out the Templars based on our flimsy evidence - so it never comes into play whether the rest should get the benefit of the doubt.  Saying the evidence is flimsy on both sides is fine, and a case can be made for that position - but it doesn't matter - only one side is trying to convince you that it is "right" to wipe out the other.

The problem is that the scant few Templars who are in fact good people are either killed, dead before Hawke arrives, or no longer a Templar. Only one is still alive and a Templar as far as we know, assuming you take Carver with you to the Deep Roads

• Thrask
• Samson
• Ser Maarevar Carver
• Emeric
• Carver if you leave him in Kirkwall
• Keran

Yet we've met many evil Templars

• Meredith
• Ser Conrad, who is described as a cruel Templar
• Ser Alrik
• Ser Karras
• Cullen to a lesser extent, but given his past experiences with torture I find his views on mages understandable. I guess you could place him in the middle because he does question Meredith's RoA if you side with the Templars
• The Templar who tortured a Dalish Elf child for information on Feynriel
• The Templar who attacks you in The Midnight Meeting if you killed Karras in self-defense

Kirkwall has more evil Templars than good ones, and the few good ones are dwindling every day. The problem with the Chantry's methodology of recruitment is that they place fervent faith in the Maker over a strong sense of morality. Morality is a secondary concern to them.

[GavrielKay]

lrrose wrote...

Because my Hawke was pissed following the whole Quentin debacle and thought that Meredith was sane and had proof that the Circle was corrupt.

I guess a little "timeline" of my Hawke's views is in order...

My Hawke never trusted Meredith, but I can definitely see where you're coming from here.  I suppose there's no real evidence that she's actually crazy until the end - just that creepy feeling I get

[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

lrrose wrote...

To answer GavirelKay's question about how one can support the Templars without supporting annulment.  My "canon" Hawke was ready to support the Right of Annulment until he realized just how delusional Meredith was and sided with the mages at the end.

Fair enough.  What made you support the RoA up until then?

There've been number of accusations thrown out that deciding the Templars are all evil based on a few isn't any better than deciding the mages are all guilty.  My answer to that would be that we aren't asked to systematically wipe out the Templars based on our flimsy evidence - so it never comes into play whether the rest should get the benefit of the doubt.  Saying the evidence is flimsy on both sides is fine, and a case can be made for that position - but it doesn't matter - only one side is trying to convince you that it is "right" to wipe out the other.

The problem is that the scant few Templars who are in fact good people are either killed, dead before Hawke arrives, or no longer a Templar. Only one is still alive and a Templar as far as we know, assuming you take Carver with you to the Deep Roads

• Thrask
• Samson
• Ser Maarevar Carver
• Emeric
• Carver if you leave him in Kirkwall
• Keran

Yet we've met many evil Templars

• Meredith
• Ser Conrad, who is described as a cruel Templar
• Ser Alrik
• Ser Karras
• Cullen to a lesser extent, but given his past experiences with torture I find his views on mages understandable. I guess you could place him in the middle because he does question Meredith's RoA if you side with the Templars
• The Templar who tortured a Dalish Elf child for information on Feynriel
• The Templar who attacks you in The Midnight Meeting if you killed Karras in self-defense

Kirkwall has more evil Templars than good ones, and the few good ones are dwindling every day. The problem with the Chantry's methodology of recruitment is that they place fervent faith in the Maker over a strong sense of morality. Morality is a secondary concern to them.

Keran? uhh I hated that loser lol, Didn't he take part in your siblings kidnapping anyway?

Even when Anders told me he wasn't possessed i told cullen he might be and should be stripped of his rank. I hate him and his stupid baby face

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Kirkwall has more evil Templars than good ones, and the few good ones are dwindling every day. The problem with the Chantry's methodology of recruitment is that they place fervent faith in the Maker over a strong sense of morality. Morality is a secondary concern to them.

Yes, but you miss my point. 

Those of us who support the mages and bad mouth the Templars have been accused of making that judgement based on just the few bad Templars that we meet - and then getting upset when the pro-Templars make the same decision based on the few circle mages they meet.  They claim that our bias against the Templars is hypocrisy since we complain about their bias against the mages.

My point was that even if we're lumping good Templars in with bad and dismissing the possibility that all the Templars we don't meet are actually great guys - it doesn't matter.  We can hate the Templars as though they are entirely composed of demon spawn.  The end-game choice isn't about whether it's right to hate the Templars based on a few examples, it's about whether it's alright to slaughter the mages based on a few examples.  Being willing to bad mouth the Templars is not at all the same as being willing to exterminate the mages.

I happen to think that it's better to try to save however many good mages may be in the circle than to condemn them based on Meredith declaring that they can't be saved.  She cannot be considered rational at that point and I have no reason to believe her claim that the RoA is necessary.

I think my other posts (geez, how much time have I spent in this thread...) speak to what I feel about the Chantry and Templars without going into that here