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[Merela]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus, I have no interest in debating with you. After dismissing Elthina's guilt because she's old and tired, there isn't anything you can say that will make me respect your position or bother to defend mine to you.

SO. MUCH. WIN.

As much as the old/tired woman argument isn't a valid one, you people coul show at least a minimum of respect. It's a bit bothering. Disagreeing with someone else opinion is fine, as long as it doesn't turn into an open "YOU NOOB" mockery. And of course, it's valid for both sides.

[Augustei]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus, I have no interest in debating with you. After dismissing Elthina's guilt because she's old and tired, there isn't anything you can say that will make me respect your position or bother to defend mine to you.

When I think of Elthina and her Neutrality I think of Zapp Brannigan from Futurama talking about the neutral planet

"I hate these filthy neutrals kif, with enemies you know where they stand but with neutrals who knows... it sickens me."
"What makes a man turn neutral, lust for gold? power? or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality"

Makes me ROFL =D

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 06 mai 2011 - 07:27 .

[Sylvianus]

Silfren wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

sight *

You are pathetic and childish. Old age is playing in her weakness, it does not mean it's justifiable, it explains in part why she just does not work. It does not mean it explains everything either. That was the meaning of my remarks.

General Petain, abandoned face to the Germans? He was old and had lost all spirit of combativeness. This is understandable in part because he was old, that excuse does his defeat by Germany? Not at all.

This is understandable in this sense. must speak as to children so that you understand ?

Once again, if you're so old that you are incapable of doing your job, the answer is to step down.  If she was so senile that stepping down didn't occur to her...well, I don't buy that because I'm fairly sure that if she had reached that level of senility, the necessity of having someone following her around to remind her when to eat and to wipe the drool from her chin would have had someone saying "Hey, the old lady needs to retire, let's take her home to bed and send a letter to the Divine."

Wtf ? Where I said she was senile ?

I never said that any Old age justified his conduct, that it played in part. I do not like distorted my words.  The truth is that you wanted to play smarter by diverting my words like schoolboys. ( i'm not talking about you ) And I **** this.

Otherwise it's ridiculous what you say, maybe she likes her place, maybe the Chantry requires her presence, she is loved in Kirkwall she may be worried about Kirkwall and despite all this mess she wants to stay.

Are you kidding? laugh your ignorance.

I suggest you read the biography of the emperor of Japan who had authority over about Tojo and he left to do.
I suggest you read the biography of Hindenburg, who had full authority over all power of Hitler and the stop, which he never did, never having had the courage and resolution, but often influenced. Old age also played.
Hitler was not stopped by Hinderburg, a word from him and that was it.

The king of Italy, who felt powerless against Mussolini. Yet he was the leader, we see later that he finally takes the appropriate action.

And I do not even speak with Louis XIII and Richelieu. There are many examples like this in history. it's not because you do not know, it's inconceivable. Wake up my god, the universe of Dragon Age is not as simple.
Meredith is a strength, extreme, uncontrollable, you think it's as simple as that? Well no.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 mai 2011 - 07:29 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Silfren wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Is there ever any proof that Meredith tranquilizes mages that act out? Karl is the only one I can remember, but that's one mage in six years.

A point of clarification: When you do the Tranquility quest, one of the templars can be looted for a letter that makes it clear Karl's Tranquiling was Ser Alrik's doing and apparently had nothing to do with Meredith. 

Specifically, that templar you kill had some serious doubts about Alrik's reason for making Karl Tranquil, and had apparently tried to approach Meredith about the matter, for which he was severely chastened by Ser Alrik.

This is actually a point that never really made sense to me.  From the start, the game would have us believe that Meredith is far more tyrannical and extreme than the average Knight-Commander when it comes to her viewpoint toward mages, even before she's exposed to the idol, but the game's early lore codices suggest that she was actually somewhat reasonable.  In this case, it is suggested that Ser Alrik wasn't bothering to tell Meredith that he was Tranquil-ing mages for this reason or that, but trying to hide it from her notice, under the guise of not bothering her because hey, she's a busy woman, which would imply that he believes he would be punished by her for his flouting of Chantry law.  And then, when you loot Ser Alrik's corpse after Dissent, you see that Ser Alrik tried to get Meredith to support his attempt to have all the mages Tranquiled, and she rejects the proposal.  That just doesn't fit in with the picture we're otherwise led to believe about Meredith's character--which is not merely a matter of a few biased characters, a la Anders, but supported by templars, Circle mages, non-mages, and apostates alike. 

I've never seen that letter during the Tranquility quest, I'll look again when I get around to another playthrough. 

[TEWR]

you probably have to be very quick to loot the Templars since the following scene begins immediately after the last one is slain

[Silfren]

Merela wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sylvianus, I have no interest in debating with you. After dismissing Elthina's guilt because she's old and tired, there isn't anything you can say that will make me respect your position or bother to defend mine to you.

SO. MUCH. WIN.

As much as the old/tired woman argument isn't a valid one, you people coul show at least a minimum of respect. It's a bit bothering. Disagreeing with someone else opinion is fine, as long as it doesn't turn into an open "YOU NOOB" mockery. And of course, it's valid for both sides.

There was nothing disrespectful in what you quote.  No personal attack or even just plain ol' snark, just a statement that GavrielKay is not interested in debating.  Edit:  Posted before I was done, gah.  Anyway, I also see nothing wrong with "So. Much. Win" either.  It's not an attack and I don't see anything in it to suggest mockery either.

Modifié par Silfren, 06 mai 2011 - 07:35 .

[Merela]

I suppose the direspect is in the eye of the beholder. Telling someone you don't respect his opinion isn't exactly nice either. :/

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

I suggest you read the biography of the emperor of Japan who had authority over about Tojo and he left to do.
I suggest you read the biography of Hindenburg, who had full authority over all power of Hitler and the stop, which he never did, never having had the courage and resolution, but often influenced. Old age also played.
Hitler was not stopped by Hinderburg, a word from him and that was it.

The king of Italy, who felt powerless against Mussolini. Yet he was the leader, we see later that he finally takes the appropriate action.

And I do not even speak with Louis XIII and Richelieu. There are many examples like this in history. it's not because you do not know, it's inconceivable. Wake up my god, the universe of Dragon Age is not as simple.
Meredith is a strength, extreme, uncontrollable, you think it's as simple as that? Well no.

The difference is that Grand Cleric Elthina intentionally does nothing, and expects the Maker to do something about it instead, even though her religion says the Maker abandoned humanity.

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...

Wtf ? Where I said she was senile ?

I never said that any Old age justified his conduct, that it played in part. I do not like distorted my words.  The truth is that you wanted to play smarter by diverting my words like schoolboys. ( i'm not talking about you ) And I **** this.

Otherwise it's ridiculous what you say, maybe she likes her place, maybe the Chantry requires her presence, she is loved in Kirkwall she may be worried about Kirkwall and despite all this mess she wants to stay.

Are you kidding? laugh your ignorance.

I suggest you read the biography of the emperor of Japan who had authority over about Tojo and he left to do.
I suggest you read the biography of Hindenburg, who had full authority over all power of Hitler and the stop, which he never did, never having had the courage and resolution, but often influenced. Old age also played.
Hitler was not stopped by Hinderburg, a word from him and that was it.

The king of Italy, who felt powerless against Mussolini. Yet he was the leader, we see later that he finally takes the appropriate action.

And I do not even speak with Louis XIII and Richelieu. There are many examples like this in history. it's not because you do not know, it's inconceivable. Wake up my god, the universe of Dragon Age is not as simple.
Meredith is a strength, extreme, uncontrollable, you think it's as simple as that? Well no.

You didn't say she was senile.  I said that if she's so old she can't do her job, then she needs to step down.  I added that if she has in fact become so old that the onset of senility prevents her from realizing she needs to step down, then someone else needs to remove her.  

You ARE saying that her old age justifies her inaction.  Not in those explicit words, but you're coming close to such, and even if you weren't, that's still the practical extension of your "she's just old and tired" defense.  You're saying that her being old and tired accounts for why she did not take action.  Given that you are also defending her as not being guilty or corrupt, then the only logical conclusion anyone can draw is that you are justifying her lack of action by saying she's just a helpless old lady.

It does NOT matter if she "likes" her position.  It does NOT matter if she's well-loved by the people.  If you are not capable, or are not willing, to do your job, you are not fit to be in that job and you should either step down, or be forcibly removed.  This is not complicated.  It's how things work in real life in every situation.  For the life of me I don't understand how you can not get this.  If you can't do your job, or refuse to do your job, you get fired. It really is that simple. 

Modifié par Silfren, 06 mai 2011 - 07:51 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I suggest you read the biography of the emperor of Japan who had authority over about Tojo and he left to do.
I suggest you read the biography of Hindenburg, who had full authority over all power of Hitler and the stop, which he never did, never having had the courage and resolution, but often influenced. Old age also played.
Hitler was not stopped by Hinderburg, a word from him and that was it.

The king of Italy, who felt powerless against Mussolini. Yet he was the leader, we see later that he finally takes the appropriate action.

And I do not even speak with Louis XIII and Richelieu. There are many examples like this in history. it's not because you do not know, it's inconceivable. Wake up my god, the universe of Dragon Age is not as simple.
Meredith is a strength, extreme, uncontrollable, you think it's as simple as that? Well no.

The difference is that Grand Cleric Elthina intentionally does nothing, and expects the Maker to do something about it instead, even though her religion says the Maker abandoned humanity.

Isn't it possible she feels the same way Leliana did? Leliana said she believed the Maker didn't forsake humanity.

[TEWR]

It does NOT matter if she "likes" her position. It does NOT matter if she's well-loved by the people. If you are not capable, or are not willing, to do your job, you are not fit to be in that job and you should either step down, or be forcibly removed. This is not complicated. It's how things work in real life in every situation. For the life of my I don't understand how you can not get this. If you can't do your job, or refuse to do your job, you get fired. It really is that simple.

Precisely. Cullen did this to Meredith. He relieved her of her command because she was no longer capable to retain such a position.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The difference is that Grand Cleric Elthina intentionally does nothing, and expects the Maker to do something about it instead, even though her religion says the Maker abandoned humanity.

Isn't it possible she feels the same way Leliana did? Leliana said she believed the Maker didn't forsake humanity.

Given her turn as a member of the Chantry working for the status quo, I'd say Leliana played The Warden in Origins. Whether or not she was genuine, she was proactive in stopping the Blight, even though she said the Maker didn't forsake humanity. In contrast, Elthina does nothing, even when Hawke presents her with the facts about the abuse going on (like when he addresses how her name was misused to kidnap Qunari delegates).

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you probably have to be very quick to loot the Templars since the following scene begins immediately after the last one is slain

Absolutely.  I didn't notice this until my third playthrough, and only then because one of the templars became lootable in the middle of the fighting, and I knew by that point that if I didn't grab for it then, I wouldn't get the chance after the fight was over.  

I find it a little amusing that DA2 is far better than Origins in that you don't ever, as far as I know, have a situation where the cutscene gets borked and takes an hour to happen after a fight's over...but instead you have to be a ninja with the control buttons in order to do something that will be impossible once the cutscene starts.  For me, it's been managing to save the game in a hurry so that I can re-play a cutscene for different dialog choices without having to re-do the entire fight.

[Ryzaki]

...She deserved to be fired yes. She didn't deserve to be blown up.

[GavrielKay]

Merela wrote...

As much as the old/tired woman argument isn't a valid one, you people coul show at least a minimum of respect. It's a bit bothering. Disagreeing with someone else opinion is fine, as long as it doesn't turn into an open "YOU NOOB" mockery. And of course, it's valid for both sides.

Sorry if you felt I was disrespectful.  I felt he was confrontational.  I did show a minimum of respect - I used no bad language or personal attacks but merely stated my own opinion on the lack of satisfaction I saw in continuing the conversation.

[Silfren]

Merela wrote...

I suppose the direspect is in the eye of the beholder. Telling someone you don't respect his opinion isn't exactly nice either. :/

I don't really see anything obnoxious in simply stating that you don't respect someone's position.  Maybe if it were phrased as "Your position is a load of **** and I hate you for having it and you should just go off and die," but that's not what you quoted.

[youngzman]

yogolol wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

I came to an entirely different conclusion. I believed even though Meredith was crazy the Templars were a necessary evil to keep order. For me it was a choice between order under a tyrannical ruler or chaos where apostates, abominations and demons run riot and then everyone would suffer.

The Templars could of been replaced easily from a different city, I think replacing Templars is a lot better than commiting genocide. I don`t believe that the circle would suddenly all turn into abominations if Templars were gone for a week.

The Circle in Ferelden[excuse me if I mispelled, haven't played in a bit] had the Templars IN the Circle, yet the abominations still got in..

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The difference is that Grand Cleric Elthina intentionally does nothing, and expects the Maker to do something about it instead, even though her religion says the Maker abandoned humanity.

Isn't it possible she feels the same way Leliana did? Leliana said she believed the Maker didn't forsake humanity.

Given her turn as a member of the Chantry working for the status quo, I'd say Leliana played The Warden in Origins. Whether or not she was genuine, she was proactive in stopping the Blight, even though she said the Maker didn't forsake humanity. In contrast, Elthina does nothing, even when Hawke presents her with the facts about the abuse going on (like when he addresses how her name was misused to kidnap Qunari delegates).

Wait, does Leliana's Song establish her as a Chantry covert-ops agent by the very end? I know it tells us of her backstory, but I don't know all the details.

I'll probably download it later tonight and play it. Darkspawn Chronicles I can do without, as fun as it looks.

[GavrielKay]

Merela wrote...

I suppose the direspect is in the eye of the beholder. Telling someone you don't respect his opinion isn't exactly nice either. :/

Which is fine.  But I think if you read through Silvianus's post you'll see plenty of "ridiculous", "childish" and "laugh at your ignorance" remarks that I feel like he should be able to handle what he can dish out.  He is confrontational in the face of general disagreement with his views and not always respectful himself.  I've debated with several folks in this thread with complete civility, but it has to come from both sides.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you probably have to be very quick to loot the Templars since the following scene begins immediately after the last one is slain

I would love to see them patch in the "let's not leave just yet" option in a few more places, the way it works in the last cutscene after you kill the Winters and rescue Seamus, or loot the vault under the Amell mansion. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 06 mai 2011 - 08:03 .

[lrrose]

Anders didn't kill Elthina because he believed she was evil. He killed her to prevent her from getting Meredith and Orsino to create a compromise that would delay the mage-templar war. Speaking of which, how is creating a compromise and trying to talk the Divine out of an Exalted March doing nothing?

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given her turn as a member of the Chantry working for the status quo, I'd say Leliana played The Warden in Origins. Whether or not she was genuine, she was proactive in stopping the Blight, even though she said the Maker didn't forsake humanity. In contrast, Elthina does nothing, even when Hawke presents her with the facts about the abuse going on (like when he addresses how her name was misused to kidnap Qunari delegates).

Wait, does Leliana's Song establish her as a Chantry covert-ops agent by the very end? I know it tells us of her backstory, but I don't know all the details.

I'll probably download it later tonight and play it. Darkspawn Chronicles I can do without, as fun as it looks.

It establishes how she met the current Divine Justina V.

[Merela]

Silfren wrote...

It does NOT matter if she's well-loved by the people.  If you are not capable, or are not willing, to do your job, you are not fit to be in that job and you should either step down, or be forcibly removed.  This is not complicated.  It's how things work in real life in every situation.  For the life of my I don't understand how you can not get this.  If you can't do your job, or refuse to do your job, you get fired. It really is that simple. 

I respectfully disagree. Elthina being well-loved is important for the Chantry, especially since she's the one leading the faith of thousand of people in Kirkwall. You're far less receptive to someone you don't like or don't know very well, and it's important for the Chantry to have its believers under control. The emotional link shouldn't be ignored.

Now, why they don't nominate someone else more capable for...assisting her in the Templar matter...I guess they just don't care, sadly for the mages.

Modifié par Merela, 06 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Even if you're someone who believes that Elthina was at fault and deserved to die... what about everyone else killed in and around the Chantry? Did some random kid there praying for this mother's health deserve to die? Did random people in Hightown and all over Kirkwall deserve to have their houses catch fire from the rain of flaming debris?

[GavrielKay]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I would love to see them patch in the "let's not leave just yet" option in a few more places, the way it works after you kill the Winters and rescue Seamus, or loot the vault under the Amell mansion. 

Yes!  It really should be everywhere unless there's some sort of plot reason why you should be rushing off - and then there shouldn't be extremely important plot items that you leave behind.  What's funny is that during the quest to save your mother, you're actually supposed to be in a rush and can leisurely loot everything in sight.