I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.
Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.
Siding with the Templars is fine, but siding with Meredith isn`t
Débuté par
yogolol
, mars 22 2011 10:27
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#1002
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:00
Sylvianus
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Thank you. I love you, bro. Exactly !Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.
Now , I can go to sleep peacefully.
#1003
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:15
IanPolaris
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Dave of Canada wrote...
sugasugaki wrote...
When moral dilemma hinges on the irrational, inexplicable stupity of a major character (Orsino), it's a dilemma that's not very compelling.
Right, nobody sided withTemplar until the event that happened 20 minutes later.
/notserious
In spite of Bioware slanting the data to encourage you to pick the Templars, I rather suspect that the overwhelming majority picked the mages 20 mins earlier even so.
-Polaris
#1004
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:18
IanPolaris
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.
Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.
I am going to have to part company with you a bit on this. I DO think the Divine is at least partially culpable and I DO think her Seekers are guilty of gross incompetance at best,
However, Elthina as Grand Cleric was still Meredith's superioer with authority over her including the authority to fire/replace her at any time. There is NO evidence that Elthina tried and failed to assert her legal rights. Had she done so, then I'd agree with you. Since she didn't I can not. [At least on paper, Elthina has a LOT more than just moral authority]
-Polaris
#1005
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:22
Rifneno
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[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
...She deserved to be fired yes. She didn't deserve to be blown up. [/quote]
There was no way to get her to peacefully step down and get someone that doesn't suck to take the job. Given the choice between letting daily atrocities continue or taking out one incredibly irresponsible woman, I'd slit her throat myself.
[quote]Merela wrote...
I respectfully disagree. Elthina being well-loved is important for the Chantry, especially since she's the one leading the faith of thousand of people in Kirkwall. You're far less receptive to someone you don't like or don't know very well, and it's important for the Chantry to have its believers under control. The emotional link shouldn't be ignored.
Now, why they don't nominate someone else more capable for...assisting her in the Templar matter...I guess they just don't care, sadly for the mages.
[/quote]
Then why should we care for them?
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Even if you're someone who believes that Elthina was at fault and deserved to die... what about everyone else killed in and around the Chantry? Did some random kid there praying for this mother's health deserve to die? Did random people in Hightown and all over Kirkwall deserve to have their houses catch fire from the rain of flaming debris?
[/quote]
It's horrible. Many innocents do die because of it, there's no denying that. My position isn't that everyone Anders hurt deserved to be hurt, it's that far more suffering would have occured if he didn't. The Chantry's mage oppression has lasted a thousand years across multiple nations. That is an unimaginable amount of injustice and suffering. If this rebellion stops what would've been another thousand years of it, it is worth almost any price.
[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
According to whom? You? You are not the final authority. [/quote]
According to the definition of a terrorist.[/quote]
Really? You have the one true one? Oh good, all this time we've been arguing about it because there's over a hundred documented definitions due to the political nature of the word. Woo, I wish you were here before to tell us the one true definition!
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
Except for the mages getting wiped out in the Gallows.[/quote]
And the templar simply being told to do their job.
[/quote]
LOL. NO. A solider following an order of genocide is not "innocent."
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
[quote]GavrielKay wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
Refer to GavrielKay's comment above. That you were using "murder" as an epithet and trying to trigger an emotional response instead of a dispassionate one, as they so much more eloquently put it than me, is what I thought you were doing.
[/quote]
Thank you for calling me eloquent
And just to make it simpler, I'm a "she."
[/quote]
You're welcome. And thanks. I thought you probably were, but I prefer to use neutral pronouns and err on the side of caution. :happy:
[/quote]
I use it. Last thing you want to do is ****** off someone from the gender of "other"[/quote]
Welcome to the Internet. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.
...She deserved to be fired yes. She didn't deserve to be blown up. [/quote]
There was no way to get her to peacefully step down and get someone that doesn't suck to take the job. Given the choice between letting daily atrocities continue or taking out one incredibly irresponsible woman, I'd slit her throat myself.
[quote]Merela wrote...
I respectfully disagree. Elthina being well-loved is important for the Chantry, especially since she's the one leading the faith of thousand of people in Kirkwall. You're far less receptive to someone you don't like or don't know very well, and it's important for the Chantry to have its believers under control. The emotional link shouldn't be ignored.
Now, why they don't nominate someone else more capable for...assisting her in the Templar matter...I guess they just don't care, sadly for the mages.
[/quote]
Then why should we care for them?
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Even if you're someone who believes that Elthina was at fault and deserved to die... what about everyone else killed in and around the Chantry? Did some random kid there praying for this mother's health deserve to die? Did random people in Hightown and all over Kirkwall deserve to have their houses catch fire from the rain of flaming debris?
[/quote]
It's horrible. Many innocents do die because of it, there's no denying that. My position isn't that everyone Anders hurt deserved to be hurt, it's that far more suffering would have occured if he didn't. The Chantry's mage oppression has lasted a thousand years across multiple nations. That is an unimaginable amount of injustice and suffering. If this rebellion stops what would've been another thousand years of it, it is worth almost any price.
[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
According to whom? You? You are not the final authority. [/quote]
According to the definition of a terrorist.[/quote]
Really? You have the one true one? Oh good, all this time we've been arguing about it because there's over a hundred documented definitions due to the political nature of the word. Woo, I wish you were here before to tell us the one true definition!
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
Except for the mages getting wiped out in the Gallows.[/quote]
And the templar simply being told to do their job.
[/quote]
LOL. NO. A solider following an order of genocide is not "innocent."
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
[quote]GavrielKay wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
Refer to GavrielKay's comment above. That you were using "murder" as an epithet and trying to trigger an emotional response instead of a dispassionate one, as they so much more eloquently put it than me, is what I thought you were doing.
[/quote]
Thank you for calling me eloquent
And just to make it simpler, I'm a "she."
[/quote]
You're welcome. And thanks. I thought you probably were, but I prefer to use neutral pronouns and err on the side of caution. :happy:
[/quote]
I use it. Last thing you want to do is ****** off someone from the gender of "other"[/quote]
Welcome to the Internet. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.
#1006
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:23
KnightofPhoenix
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@ Ian Polaris
I am certainty not absolving Elthina of her gross inaction and blatantly heretical religious views concerning the Maker as the ultimate problem solver when he is not supposed to be that.
But I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine who has both the legal / moral rights and the actual physical capability to enforce her will. But instead of doing the sensible thing, she is contemplating an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country (seems to be the first reaction of the Chantry regarding many issues). That what makes me more pissed off at her than on Elthina.
I am certainty not absolving Elthina of her gross inaction and blatantly heretical religious views concerning the Maker as the ultimate problem solver when he is not supposed to be that.
But I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine who has both the legal / moral rights and the actual physical capability to enforce her will. But instead of doing the sensible thing, she is contemplating an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country (seems to be the first reaction of the Chantry regarding many issues). That what makes me more pissed off at her than on Elthina.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 mai 2011 - 01:37 .
#1007
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:29
Silfren
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[quote]Sylvianus wrote...
Corrupted, it means she is mixed with the Meredith's desire to hurt to the Magi, or does not disagree like some you said to me. And yet she desagrees.
[/quote]
Sorry, I can't determine what you mean here.
[quote]Her only responsibility is not to act. Eltina is morally responsible, yes. I never thought otherwise. Some think it is more than that, mixed with unhealthy intentions of Meredith. That innocent person who is overwhelmed by the situation, guilty in the eyes of mages, powerless or other to me.
[/quote]
This doesn't make sense to me. She does have a responsibility to act. I'm not talking about whether Elthina should step in to create a compromise between the mages and templars so that the mages can have more freedom. I'm talking about the flat-out abuses: the rape and torture and illegal Tranquil-ing. These are not a matter of debate. They are illegal. Because they are illegal, it is Elthina's duty to put a stop to them, and to punish the culprits responsible. Her refusal to act precludes the possibility of her being innocent. If she is overwhelmed and feels powerless, she has an obligation to retire in favor of someone else. If no one else is immediately available, she needs to be actively hunting for a suitable replacement. That she may not want to leave her position is completely irrelevant. What she wants, period, is irrelevant. She has a job to do irrespective of what she wants, what she feels, whether she's overwhelmed, or just tired. She is not doing that job. It does not matter why she is not doing it--she's not doing it, and that means she is failing in her duty. And that means she needs to step down, or be removed. Period.
[quote]
Being morally responsible for a crazy situation does not mean she is considered guilty. Eltina considers that it is not within her powers to resolve the conflict, She's wrong, the Chantry, must remain neutral in her eyes when our eyes it is just madness or cowardice or other. She ignores the problem.
[/quote]
She's not responsible for the crazy situation beginning, but she is responsible for putting a stop to it, and she does not. It is her responsbility to stop it. If she does not feel capable, then we're just back to her having an obligation to step down as Grand Cleric. She may need to stay neutral as far as the question of whether the mages should be given more freedom, but that does not speak to the question of the abuses that were going on. If she ignores the problem, once again, I insist that that means she is guilty.
[quote]Being morally responsible for a situation who exceeded her character, does not mean she is considered guilty and desserves death. She has failed to be a part of the solution and it is a mistake. We don't kill someone incompetant in an area.
[/quote]
Yes, it does. If you are responsible for a situation, and you do not take action, you are guilty of not doing your job. In this case, by extension that makes her guilty of permitting rape and torture and the stripping away of mages' very self. Her incompetence is contributing to abuse, in the form of rape, torture, and loss of self. For some of us those particular crimes are horrible enough that her complicity makes her just as deserving of death as Meredith.
[quote]It is much too simplistic, as a neutral person (I do not speak of the Magi who have reasons) to think that we should kill her because she did not act and i doubt that her influence was very huge. Myself to the beginning, i didn't care mage. Many people have sinned, and Hawke is also morally responsible.
[/quote]
She's the Grand Cleric. The highest ranking member of the clergy within Kirkwall and, IIRC, the entire Free Marches. She is the highest authority of the Chantry in that region. Ergo, she has the greatest authority, and by extension, the greatest responsibility. The only person of higher Chantry rank than Elthina is the Divine. Her codices indicate that she is very popular amongst the people. That translates into her having a considerable amount of influence, I think. And influence or not, we're still left with the fact that she is the one with the authority. It. Is. Her. JOB to take action, and she refuses to do anything.
[/quote]
[quote]For doing nothing during all these years to resolve the conflict. He is a fool and i hate him for that. And please do not tell me about these side quests insignificants
[/quote]
It isn't Hawke's job to do that, however. Hawke has influence as a noble with money in Act 2, and as the Champion, late into the game. But she does not have authority. She is not a ranking member of the Chantry at any level. Neither is she a member of the guard, or any other position even remotely concerned with keeping order and enforcing law. The same is not true of Elthina. Hawke may or may not have the actual power to affect the conflict. But she most assuredly does not have official sanction. Elthina, however, does.
Corrupted, it means she is mixed with the Meredith's desire to hurt to the Magi, or does not disagree like some you said to me. And yet she desagrees.
[/quote]
Sorry, I can't determine what you mean here.
[quote]Her only responsibility is not to act. Eltina is morally responsible, yes. I never thought otherwise. Some think it is more than that, mixed with unhealthy intentions of Meredith. That innocent person who is overwhelmed by the situation, guilty in the eyes of mages, powerless or other to me.
[/quote]
This doesn't make sense to me. She does have a responsibility to act. I'm not talking about whether Elthina should step in to create a compromise between the mages and templars so that the mages can have more freedom. I'm talking about the flat-out abuses: the rape and torture and illegal Tranquil-ing. These are not a matter of debate. They are illegal. Because they are illegal, it is Elthina's duty to put a stop to them, and to punish the culprits responsible. Her refusal to act precludes the possibility of her being innocent. If she is overwhelmed and feels powerless, she has an obligation to retire in favor of someone else. If no one else is immediately available, she needs to be actively hunting for a suitable replacement. That she may not want to leave her position is completely irrelevant. What she wants, period, is irrelevant. She has a job to do irrespective of what she wants, what she feels, whether she's overwhelmed, or just tired. She is not doing that job. It does not matter why she is not doing it--she's not doing it, and that means she is failing in her duty. And that means she needs to step down, or be removed. Period.
[quote]
Being morally responsible for a crazy situation does not mean she is considered guilty. Eltina considers that it is not within her powers to resolve the conflict, She's wrong, the Chantry, must remain neutral in her eyes when our eyes it is just madness or cowardice or other. She ignores the problem.
[/quote]
She's not responsible for the crazy situation beginning, but she is responsible for putting a stop to it, and she does not. It is her responsbility to stop it. If she does not feel capable, then we're just back to her having an obligation to step down as Grand Cleric. She may need to stay neutral as far as the question of whether the mages should be given more freedom, but that does not speak to the question of the abuses that were going on. If she ignores the problem, once again, I insist that that means she is guilty.
[quote]Being morally responsible for a situation who exceeded her character, does not mean she is considered guilty and desserves death. She has failed to be a part of the solution and it is a mistake. We don't kill someone incompetant in an area.
[/quote]
Yes, it does. If you are responsible for a situation, and you do not take action, you are guilty of not doing your job. In this case, by extension that makes her guilty of permitting rape and torture and the stripping away of mages' very self. Her incompetence is contributing to abuse, in the form of rape, torture, and loss of self. For some of us those particular crimes are horrible enough that her complicity makes her just as deserving of death as Meredith.
[quote]It is much too simplistic, as a neutral person (I do not speak of the Magi who have reasons) to think that we should kill her because she did not act and i doubt that her influence was very huge. Myself to the beginning, i didn't care mage. Many people have sinned, and Hawke is also morally responsible.
[/quote]
She's the Grand Cleric. The highest ranking member of the clergy within Kirkwall and, IIRC, the entire Free Marches. She is the highest authority of the Chantry in that region. Ergo, she has the greatest authority, and by extension, the greatest responsibility. The only person of higher Chantry rank than Elthina is the Divine. Her codices indicate that she is very popular amongst the people. That translates into her having a considerable amount of influence, I think. And influence or not, we're still left with the fact that she is the one with the authority. It. Is. Her. JOB to take action, and she refuses to do anything.
[/quote]
[quote]For doing nothing during all these years to resolve the conflict. He is a fool and i hate him for that. And please do not tell me about these side quests insignificants
[/quote]
It isn't Hawke's job to do that, however. Hawke has influence as a noble with money in Act 2, and as the Champion, late into the game. But she does not have authority. She is not a ranking member of the Chantry at any level. Neither is she a member of the guard, or any other position even remotely concerned with keeping order and enforcing law. The same is not true of Elthina. Hawke may or may not have the actual power to affect the conflict. But she most assuredly does not have official sanction. Elthina, however, does.
Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 01:43 .
#1008
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:32
TEWR
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Rifneno wrote...
Welcome to the Internet. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.
I always knew babies were plotting something sinister....
#1009
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:34
Ryzaki
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@Rifneno: Right you keep insisting that terrorism is something only big meanies use and I'll be over here in the real world.
"ooh but the politicians!" anyone with half a brain would know a politican would twist a word to mean anything they want you to think it means. That doesn't make it true. Just means *drumroll* politicans lie!
What a shocking turn of events!
FYI I said nothing about "One true definition."
So go ahead and show me the definition of terrorist that Anders somehow doesn't fit. Go ahead. I'll be waiting.
"ooh but the politicians!" anyone with half a brain would know a politican would twist a word to mean anything they want you to think it means. That doesn't make it true. Just means *drumroll* politicans lie!
What a shocking turn of events!
FYI I said nothing about "One true definition."
So go ahead and show me the definition of terrorist that Anders somehow doesn't fit. Go ahead. I'll be waiting.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 mai 2011 - 01:46 .
#1010
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:36
IanPolaris
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
Welcome to the Internet. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.
I always knew babies were plotting something sinister....
It was easy to miss this week. They were busy last weekend planning the downfall of UBL (the babies I mean).
-Polaris
#1011
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:36
Silfren
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.
Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.
Doesn't it then follow that Elthina should be contacting the Divine to say "Hey, excuse me, I have an out-of-control Knight Commander and several out-of-control templars who are abusing their charges and breaking Chantry laws. I can't deal with this on my own. Help kplzthx."
#1012
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:39
KnightofPhoenix
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Silfren wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.
Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.
Doesn't it then follow that Elthina should be contacting the Divine to say "Hey, excuse me, I have an out-of-control Knight Commander and several out-of-control templars who are abusing their charges and breaking Chantry laws. I can't deal with this on my own. Help kplzthx."
Yes, but I would also expect the Divine to do her own job and actually keep an eye on the *only* Templar in all of Thedas to have de facto political power, in a city bordering on complete collapse, without anyone begging her to.
And she even has the tools to do so. They're called Seekers.
EDIT: and she had 7 bloody years!
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 mai 2011 - 01:40 .
#1013
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:41
IanPolaris
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Silfren wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.
Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.
Doesn't it then follow that Elthina should be contacting the Divine to say "Hey, excuse me, I have an out-of-control Knight Commander and several out-of-control templars who are abusing their charges and breaking Chantry laws. I can't deal with this on my own. Help kplzthx."
That's especially true since we know (from Faith) that Elthina has been in close contact with the Divine to the point where she (Elthina) mentions several messages to the same. We know that Lelianna is the trusted "left-hand" of the Divine and presumably empowered as a Seeker to act in the Divine's name. If Elthina felt she didn't have the authority to act (and she most certainly did), she COULD have gotten it easy enough from the Divine directly via their communications or by proxy via Lelianna.
-Polaris
#1014
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:42
IanPolaris
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There is no question in my mind that the Seekers set new standards for gross incompetance.
-Polaris
-Polaris
#1015
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:45
Ryzaki
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, but I would also expect the Divine to do her own job and actually keep an eye on the *only* Templar in all of Thedas to have de facto political power, in a city bordering on complete collapse, without anyone begging her to.
And she even has the tools to do so. They're called Seekers.
EDIT: and she had 7 bloody years!
See you need to stop assuming people think in DA2. Too much trouble.
#1016
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:45
TEWR
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IanPolaris wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
Welcome to the Internet. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.
I always knew babies were plotting something sinister....
It was easy to miss this week. They were busy last weekend planning the downfall of UBL (the babies I mean).
-Polaris
Clever babies... no one would ever think a baby was housing a Desert Eagle in their diaper.
#1017
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:46
Xilizhra
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Hypothesis: the Divine approved of Meredith.
#1018
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:47
KnightofPhoenix
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Xilizhra wrote...
Hypothesis: the Divine approved of Meredith.
Which makes her as incompetent.
#1019
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:48
TEWR
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Xilizhra wrote...
Hypothesis: the Divine approved of Meredith.
That would be the Divine before Justinia V.
Justinia V took charge in 9:34 Dragon, whereas Meredith took charge some years before that.
#1020
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:48
IanPolaris
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Xilizhra wrote...
Hypothesis: the Divine approved of Meredith.
This is possible. Lelianna certainly (and very unlike her DAO persona) came across as almost radically anti-magic so it's quite possible the Divine is even more so. It's also possible that the Divine doesn't believe the reports of Meredith's abuses (which may be the same thing). Certainly the Seekers though seem GROSSLY incompetance since one of the functions of a covert intelligence agency is to gather information whether it agrees with your boss' preconceptions or not...and the Seekers failed that duty big-time.
-Polaris
#1021
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:49
IanPolaris
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Hypothesis: the Divine approved of Meredith.
That would be the Divine before Justinia V.
Justinia V took charge in 9:34 Dragon, whereas Meredith took charge some years before that.
It's possible that both liked Meridith though as I explain above.
-Polaris
#1022
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:50
Silfren
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IanPolaris wrote...
It was easy to miss this week. They were busy last weekend planning the downfall of UBL (the babies I mean).
-Polaris
I am tragically amused by how many people would read that and have to be told that UBL = Osama bin Laden with the correct spelling inferred.
#1023
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:51
Xilizhra
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Radically? It didn't strike me so... she's annoyingly more doctrinarian than she was when I left her, but she didn't make it clear that "blargh death to all mages" was her own opinion on the matter. I'd buy it from the Divine, though.
#1024
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:52
Silfren
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Rifneno wrote...
LOL. NO. A solider following an order of genocide is not "innocent."
Cue endless discussions of a soldier's moral obligations to follow, or not, an illegal order.
#1025
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 01:53
IanPolaris
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Xilizhra wrote...
Radically? It didn't strike me so... she's annoyingly more doctrinarian than she was when I left her, but she didn't make it clear that "blargh death to all mages" was her own opinion on the matter. I'd buy it from the Divine, though.
She equates mages gaining independance from the chantry with "Kirkwall falling to magic and becoming another Imperium" in short equating all mages with ancient Tevinter Magisters (something she knows damn well isn't so) which makes her pretty radically anti-mage to me.
-Polaris
