4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Lewie]

Edit: Note to self, no more mage/templar debates.

Modifié par louise101, 07 mai 2011 - 02:35 .

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Did I read this right?

If the Divine believes what Meredith is doing is justified, she is incompetant or corrupt?

If she believes that up to and including willing to overlook her subordinate FLOUTING the laws that the Divine (ultimately) is supposed to uphold then yes.

-Polaris

Is there evidence that she does so?  Doesn't the Leliana quest take place in Act 2?  She did send someone to investigate.

As to Alrik, he was found, he was killed.  There's no indication any abuse was ever reported to someone in Kikrwall, let alone the Divine.  So what was she flouting, exactly?

As to Meredith's crackdowns, keeping mages confined is very arguably justified given the situations in Kirkwall. 

[lrrose]

I would just like to say that I give up on this debate. Everyone is taking this game far more seriously than I am.

Modifié par lrrose, 07 mai 2011 - 02:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emperor,

Templars are no more supposed to take POLICIAL leaderhip than the mages are supposed to. This is why even in Kirkwall, the Chantry was very careful to keep and perserve the office of the viscount.

If the Chantry starts getting to overtly into politics (like taking titles either de facto or de jure) then you have a lot of nobles that stop supporting the Chantry....which is already starting to happen.

-Polaris

The only reason the title of Viscount has been kept, is because the people of Kirkwall seems to appreciate it. It gives them a sense of nationality. As soon as it didn't. The chantry would likely remove the title all together. A Templars role is not restricted to regulating mages. A Templar has many roles. Some of which are political. They can gather all the political might they want, without it having any bad influence in the office of the Divine.

I am very sure that eliminating the office would be in violation of Chantry law.  In fact I KNOW this is the case.  If you talk with Ser Irminric and his Sister (I forget which Bann but it's an important one), the moment you take your final oaths to the Chantry, you forfeit your noble inheritance rights.  I do think a Templar that is last of his or her line could get them back but ONLY if they resigned from the Templars and renounced their vows.

-Polaris

I was more talking about the title in it value of its name. The title of Viscount, even though it has been defiant to  Orlais, and the Chantry itself, it has been kept, out of sentimental value. And just because you forfeit your noble inheritance, does not mean you can't reclaim them, or a similar power, through other means. It merely means, that if your father was to die, you wouldn't be the one to inherit.
I do not believe that a Templar would have to leave the order to attain politcal power. While the Templars, or any chantry memeber, may not claim direct political power, they can do so indirectly. Meredith never claimed direct power of Kirkwall, so the Seekers, didn't have a reason to oppose her,

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I do not believe that a Templar would have to leave the order to attain politcal power. While the Templars, or any chantry memeber, may not claim direct political power, they can do so indirectly. Meredith never claimed direct power of Kirkwall, so the Seekers, didn't have a reason to oppose her,

Knight-Lieutenant Irminric would disagree with you.

-Polaris

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.

Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.

(husband)


Not so sure of that.   It was also a defacto chance to establish a defacto theocracy.   That is something that many religions won't pass up...   

Modifié par Addai67, 07 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I do not believe that a Templar would have to leave the order to attain politcal power. While the Templars, or any chantry memeber, may not claim direct political power, they can do so indirectly. Meredith never claimed direct power of Kirkwall, so the Seekers, didn't have a reason to oppose her,

Knight-Lieutenant Irminric would disagree with you.

-Polaris

Furthermore she tries to change the leadership of the City Guard and has Templars stationed in the Viscount's Office. How is that not a direct claim?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.

Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.

(husband)


Not so sure of that.   It was also a defacto chance to establish a defacto theocracy.   That is something that many religions won't pass up...   

When the result is an alienated nobility and an unprecendented amount of popular sympathy for mages, then such a project is unfeasible and she would have to be blind to think otherwise.

[EmperorSahlertz]

NanoKitty wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why on earth would the Seekers step in at the Kirkwall situation. If anything they would step in to eliminate Orsino (the cause of the problems). The Seekers more than anyone, probably realized the reasons for Meredith crackdown on the Gallows. And they couldn't care less about wether or not she had the political power in Kirkwall. It is stated nowhere that a Templar can't have political power. Why would the Seekers suddenly care?

And how are the problems in Kirkwall - in the Gallows - Orsino's fault?  Especially where it's established that he has very little power?  The cause of the problems in the Gallows are stemming from the Templars' abuses!

Orsino has all the power a First Enchanter is supposed to have, and Meredith repsects it. When Meredith wants to investigate the tower for blood magic, she is denied. The cause of Templar "abuse" which isn't really a major factor since they evidently don't happen on a large scale, is because the mages won't cooperate. The hate breeds hate, breeds contempt, breeds conflict. To claim either side as innocent is false, but to claim any other, but the man who could have stopped it, as the cause, is ignorant.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Is there evidence that she does so?  Doesn't the Leliana quest take place in Act 2?  She did send someone to investigate.

No, Leliana shows up in Act III.

My personal theory is that when Meredith requested the RoA from the Divine, she told a story that would make Varric facepalm so she'd get her way.  She can't lie too much to Elthina because she's right in the city and knows what's going on, the divine doesn't have the slightest idea so she could tell her blood mages are sacrificing goats to the archon in the town square every day if she wants.  And the Orliasian Chantry bought her lies hook line and sinker.  Not that I'm excusing their epic fail to do some fact checking, and like I said it's just my opinion, but it fits well enough.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I do not believe that a Templar would have to leave the order to attain politcal power. While the Templars, or any chantry memeber, may not claim direct political power, they can do so indirectly. Meredith never claimed direct power of Kirkwall, so the Seekers, didn't have a reason to oppose her,

Knight-Lieutenant Irminric would disagree with you.

-Polaris

Would he now, and why is that? Does he ever try to claim power, does he try to take over Ferelden? No he doesn't. he is a captive of Arl Howe, and it goes no longer than that.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I do not believe that a Templar would have to leave the order to attain politcal power. While the Templars, or any chantry memeber, may not claim direct political power, they can do so indirectly. Meredith never claimed direct power of Kirkwall, so the Seekers, didn't have a reason to oppose her,

Knight-Lieutenant Irminric would disagree with you.

-Polaris

Furthermore she tries to change the leadership of the City Guard and has Templars stationed in the Viscount's Office. How is that not a direct claim?

Until she sits herself in the seat of Viscount, all she can get is indirect power. Even in act 3 she would still have to act through intermediaries (sp?). These were probably more or les sintimidated by her reputation to follow orders. Never the less, Meredith is only ever the de facto ruler, never the offiicial.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Ian Polaris
I am certainty not absolving Elthina of her gross inaction and blatantly heretical religious views concerning the Maker as the ultimate problem solver when he is not supposed to be that.

 

(husband)

What blatantly heretical views? I didn't see any.   I saw a well intended traditionalist believer.   I can only see her as heretical if you are looking at her from a modern rationalist perspective.    Someone like Leliana was obviously not orthodox according to game lore... but don't see it with Elthina.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 mai 2011 - 02:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.

Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.

(husband)


Not so sure of that.   It was also a defacto chance to establish a defacto theocracy.   That is something that many religions won't pass up...   

When the result is an alienated nobility and an unprecendented amount of popular sympathy for mages, then such a project is unfeasible and she would have to be blind to think otherwise.

It is not the situation in Kirkwall which breeds sympathy for amges. It is the situation overall.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Ian Polaris
I am certainty not absolving Elthina of her gross inaction and blatantly heretical religious views concerning the Maker as the ultimate problem solver when he is not supposed to be that.

 

(husband)

What blatantly heretical views? I didn't see any.   I saw a well intended traditionalist believer.   I can only see her as heretical if you are looking at her from a modern rationalist perspective.    Someone like Leliana was obviously not orthodox according to game lore... but don't see it with Elthina.

KoP is passing the notion that Elthina believes in the makers intervention as heresy, even though it is widely accepted in the Chantry, that he does interfere, just that he doesn't observe continuesly. The only thing he wont do, is grant wishes and answer prayers (literally), but he can (and does, accoring to the chantry) interfere in the day-to-day life of Thedas.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Until she sits herself in the seat of Viscount, all she can get is indirect power. Even in act 3 she would still have to act through intermediaries (sp?). These were probably more or les sintimidated by her reputation to follow orders. Never
the less, Meredith is only ever the de facto ruler, never the offiicial.

What intermediate?

Of course she is not the official ruler, because no law would ever allow it. But in her stupidity, she is not even bothering to be a subtle de facto ruler.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

What blatantly heretical views? I didn't see any.   I saw a well intended traditionalist believer.   I can only see her as heretical if you are looking at her from a modern rationalist perspective.    Someone like Leliana was obviously not orthodox according to game lore... but don't see it with Elthina.

KoP is passing the notion that Elthina believes in the makers intervention as heresy, even though it is widely accepted in the Chantry, that he does interfere, just that he doesn't observe continuesly. The only thing he wont do, is grant wishes and answer prayers (literally), but he can (and does, accoring to the chantry) interfere in the day-to-day life of Thedas.

The Maker is declared as having lost any interest in mankind after the death of Andraste, the only one who convinced him to return after what happened to the Golden City. Chantry doctrine explictly mentions that the Maker will not return untiul the Chant is sang in all four corners of the world.

He is not supposed to intevene in every day life and save mankind until that condition is met.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 mai 2011 - 02:45 .

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Is there evidence that she does so?  Doesn't the Leliana quest take place in Act 2?  She did send someone to investigate.

No, Leliana shows up in Act III.

My personal theory is that when Meredith requested the RoA from the Divine, she told a story that would make Varric facepalm so she'd get her way.  She can't lie too much to Elthina because she's right in the city and knows what's going on, the divine doesn't have the slightest idea so she could tell her blood mages are sacrificing goats to the archon in the town square every day if she wants.  And the Orliasian Chantry bought her lies hook line and sinker.  Not that I'm excusing their epic fail to do some fact checking, and like I said it's just my opinion, but it fits well enough.

Well, Act 2 or Act 3, she does send someone.  So she's clearly paying some attention.

Now, as to what Meredith told the Divine about the RoA - true, she could have said almost anything she wanted.  We'll never know, of course, as we'll never know what the Divine would have answered.  Obviously, you and I could debate how far from the truth she'd have to go to convince the Divine, but I don't think we need to do that.

But it seems that the Divine is checking into the Kirkwall situation, and taking it seriously, since she sent not just anyone, but Leliana.  So I'm not sure anyone can say she's criminally negligent or anything.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally attribute more responsibility to the Divine than Elthina. The Divine has direct command over the Seekers who are supposed to keep the Templars in line. Elthina only has moral authority, but no stick to threaten or beat Meredith with.

Meredith assuming de facto political control in Kirkwall should have raised a whole lot of alarm bells in the Divine's head. But blindness and incompetence seem to be a rampaging contagious disease in Thedas.

(husband)


Not so sure of that.   It was also a defacto chance to establish a defacto theocracy.   That is something that many religions won't pass up...   

When the result is an alienated nobility and an unprecendented amount of popular sympathy for mages, then such a project is unfeasible and she would have to be blind to think otherwise.

(husband)

That is the kind of conclusion she might reach if she had the data and had it in a timely fashion.    Like TV was invented or she let those dirty mages scry the evening news for her...      But without hearing that sort of thing, and simply hearing that one of your underlings is now running the show.   It's just too tempting to not pass up.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Until she sits herself in the seat of Viscount, all she can get is indirect power. Even in act 3 she would still have to act through intermediaries (sp?). These were probably more or les sintimidated by her reputation to follow orders. Never
the less, Meredith is only ever the de facto ruler, never the offiicial.

What intermediate?

Of course she is not the official ruler, because no law would ever allow it. But in her stupidity, she is not even bothering to be a subtle de facto ruler.

There is no such thing as a subtle de facto ruler.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

What blatantly heretical views? I didn't see any.   I saw a well intended traditionalist believer.   I can only see her as heretical if you are looking at her from a modern rationalist perspective.    Someone like Leliana was obviously not orthodox according to game lore... but don't see it with Elthina.

KoP is passing the notion that Elthina believes in the makers intervention as heresy, even though it is widely accepted in the Chantry, that he does interfere, just that he doesn't observe continuesly. The only thing he wont do, is grant wishes and answer prayers (literally), but he can (and does, accoring to the chantry) interfere in the day-to-day life of Thedas.

The Maker is declared as having lost any interest in mankind after the death of Andraste, the only one who convinced him to return after what happened to the Golden City. Chantry doctrine explictly mentions that the Maker will not return untiul the Chant is sang in all four corners of the world.

He is not supposed to intevene in every day life and save mankind until that condition is met.

He is not suppsoed to intervene until that criteria is met. This discussion is useless, it is a religious aóne, and has a million different interpretations. Just know that if she was truly heretical to the general view of the Chantry, she would never have attained the rank of Grand Cleric.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

What blatantly heretical views? I didn't see any.   I saw a well intended traditionalist believer.   I can only see her as heretical if you are looking at her from a modern rationalist perspective.    Someone like Leliana was obviously not orthodox according to game lore... but don't see it with Elthina.

KoP is passing the notion that Elthina believes in the makers intervention as heresy, even though it is widely accepted in the Chantry, that he does interfere, just that he doesn't observe continuesly. The only thing he wont do, is grant wishes and answer prayers (literally), but he can (and does, accoring to the chantry) interfere in the day-to-day life of Thedas.

The Maker is declared as having lost any interest in mankind after the death of Andraste, the only one who convinced him to return after what happened to the Golden City. Chantry doctrine explictly mentions that the Maker will not return untiul the Chant is sang in all four corners of the world.

He is not supposed to intevene in every day life and save mankind until that condition is met.

(husband)


Ok I sort of see what your talking about. ...

  But this to me is like one of those paradoxical belief thingies like Christians believing in Predestination and Free Will etc..   Because the opposite is also proclaimed.     i.e. everyone telling the Warden that "the maker sent him" to save them.    He was foreordained by the Maker to save Ferelden from the Blight etc.     And this is done both the common people and the religious clerics.    So if that's heresy then it all cancels out and therefore is the orthodox norm.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 mai 2011 - 03:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

That is the kind of conclusion she might reach if she had the data and had it in a timely fashion.    Like TV was invented or she let those dirty mages scry the evening news for her...      But without hearing that sort of thing, and simply hearing that one of your underlings is now running the show.   It's just too tempting to not pass up.

When the time period we are talking about is 7 years (3 after Act 2), then no.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There is no such thing as a subtle de facto ruler.

Of course there is.
Some are always more subtle than others. Meredith has the subtely of a kid running around with drums in her parent's bedroom while they are napping.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
He is not suppsoed to intervene until that criteria is met. This discussion is useless, it is a religious aóne, and has a million different interpretations. Just know that if she was truly heretical to the general view of the Chantry, she would never have attained the rank of Grand Cleric.

Helping solve this problem is intervention. It's not useless. It's more likely a pathetic excuse for inaction.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Well, Act 2 or Act 3, she does send someone.  So she's clearly paying some attention.

Now, as to what Meredith told the Divine about the RoA - true, she could have said almost anything she wanted.  We'll never know, of course, as we'll never know what the Divine would have answered.  Obviously, you and I could debate how far from the truth she'd have to go to convince the Divine, but I don't think we need to do that.

But it seems that the Divine is checking into the Kirkwall situation, and taking it seriously, since she sent not just anyone, but Leliana.  So I'm not sure anyone can say she's criminally negligent or anything.

I don't think sending a messenger to tell one priestess to get out of the city before her army marches on it is exactly the same as checking on the situation.

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, Act 2 or Act 3, she does send someone.  So she's clearly paying some attention.

Now, as to what Meredith told the Divine about the RoA - true, she could have said almost anything she wanted.  We'll never know, of course, as we'll never know what the Divine would have answered.  Obviously, you and I could debate how far from the truth she'd have to go to convince the Divine, but I don't think we need to do that.

But it seems that the Divine is checking into the Kirkwall situation, and taking it seriously, since she sent not just anyone, but Leliana.  So I'm not sure anyone can say she's criminally negligent or anything.

I don't think sending a messenger to tell one priestess to get out of the city before her army marches on it is exactly the same as checking on the situation.

Well, that's a question of what exactly Leliana was doing there.  Sure, if you think she was just delivering a message, fine.

But IMO, she was there for more.  She's the Divine's left hand, clearly trusted, and a close confidant/advisor.  You don't normally send someone like that to deliver a note and come home - you send them to look at things, and report back to you.  The message is the pretext.

And Leliana certainly has the skills to have looked into whatever the Divine wanted her to look into while she was there.

[Addai]

quote
There is no such thing as a subtle de facto ruler.
quote

(husband)

Not sure how you are defining "subtle". Would Anora before the death of Cailan qualify? She ruled the country in all ways except possessing the formal right and title but did so mostly behind the scenes letting her husband have the lime light.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 mai 2011 - 03:17 .