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[TEWR]

I just realized that the bow Leliana uses in Leliana's Song is also available in DA2. It's called Mont de Glace Strand.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, Act 2 or Act 3, she does send someone.  So she's clearly paying some attention.

Now, as to what Meredith told the Divine about the RoA - true, she could have said almost anything she wanted.  We'll never know, of course, as we'll never know what the Divine would have answered.  Obviously, you and I could debate how far from the truth she'd have to go to convince the Divine, but I don't think we need to do that.

But it seems that the Divine is checking into the Kirkwall situation, and taking it seriously, since she sent not just anyone, but Leliana.  So I'm not sure anyone can say she's criminally negligent or anything.

I don't think sending a messenger to tell one priestess to get out of the city before her army marches on it is exactly the same as checking on the situation.

Well, that's a question of what exactly Leliana was doing there.  Sure, if you think she was just delivering a message, fine.

But IMO, she was there for more.  She's the Divine's left hand, clearly trusted, and a close confidant/advisor.  You don't normally send someone like that to deliver a note and come home - you send them to look at things, and report back to you.  The message is the pretext.

And Leliana certainly has the skills to have looked into whatever the Divine wanted her to look into while she was there.

True enough.  I suppose then it's another case of "NO!  Hawke must be functionally retarded!" stopping us from just telling Leliana "Meredith's lost her mind" and averting the whole thing.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think sending a messenger to tell one priestess to get out of the city before her army marches on it is exactly the same as checking on the situation.

Well, that's a question of what exactly Leliana was doing there.  Sure, if you think she was just delivering a message, fine.

But IMO, she was there for more.  She's the Divine's left hand, clearly trusted, and a close confidant/advisor.  You don't normally send someone like that to deliver a note and come home - you send them to look at things, and report back to you.  The message is the pretext.

And Leliana certainly has the skills to have looked into whatever the Divine wanted her to look into while she was there.

Leliana makes note that she's looking into what's going on in Kirkwall with the mages when she mentions the Resolutionists, while giving Hawke her real name (I suppose she takes after James Bond). She seems to be convinced that the Resolutionists are behind it because they attempted to murder her. Leliana is adamant that she's going to give a report that's going to condemn Kirkwall to an Exalted March, despite Hawke trying to tell her that Kirkwall has a chance.

Why has it taken three years for the Divine to send an agent to investigate the fact that one of their Knight-Commanders has taken political power over their base of operations over eastern Thedas?

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why has it taken three years for the Divine to send an agent to investigate the fact that one of their Knight-Commanders has taken political power over their base of operations over eastern Thedas?

Why?  Because Divine Justina V clearly knows what the truth is regardless of the facts.  The fact that Lelianna works for her and is her best buddy (and I've heard rumors of more) makes me want to stab her all the more.

-Polaris

[HSHAW]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why has it taken three years for the Divine to send an agent to investigate the fact that one of their Knight-Commanders has taken political power over their base of operations over eastern Thedas?

Why?  Because Divine Justina V clearly knows what the truth is regardless of the facts.  The fact that Lelianna works for her and is her best buddy (and I've heard rumors of more) makes me want to stab her all the more.

-Polaris

Where did you hear these rumors?

[IanPolaris]

HSHAW wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why has it taken three years for the Divine to send an agent to investigate the fact that one of their Knight-Commanders has taken political power over their base of operations over eastern Thedas?

Why?  Because Divine Justina V clearly knows what the truth is regardless of the facts.  The fact that Lelianna works for her and is her best buddy (and I've heard rumors of more) makes me want to stab her all the more.

-Polaris

Where did you hear these rumors?

It's the distinct vibe I picked up at the end of Lelianna's song.  If it's not true, *shrug* then so be it.  I DO know that Lelianna is essentiallyh Dorthea's (Justina V's) best friend forever and that makes me think (along with the Faith mission) a lot less of Lelianna to be frank.

-Polaris

[Killjoy Cutter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And I can imagine more than a few mages will see him as a terrorist as well. 

If it leads to the continued emancipation of the Circles of Magi, I can see history seeing him favorably.

Ryzaki wrote...

The Chantry blowing up was an act of terrorism. He's a terrroist. It doesn't matter how noble his goals were.

Anders wanted to see mages freed from their dictatorship under the Chantry and its templars.

Ryzaki wrote...

Osama Bin Laden may have had noble goals to his followers. That didn't make him any less of a terrorist. 

Usama Bin Ladin had no noble goals, he was a monster. Anders is trying to emancipate his people from a system he condemns as slavery, where entire populations can be massacred in an act of genocide.

Anders and bin Ladin both believed that they had noble goals, and were willing to kill as many innocent people as it necessary to achieve those goals. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

"Elthina may be well loved by the common folk, but her job involves more than that. She is responsible for the mages that her order keeps under lock and key. She fails in that utterly regardless of whatever reasons help her sleep at night."

Not one mention of the first enchanter in your post who is in charge of the mages in his keeping. There was utter failure all around in this situation. She could have easily told Leliana, yeah go get the divine to come on down and bring an army. She actually was trying to stem things, she was crappy at it no doubt about that.

How?  Orsino was confined to the Gallows at the time.  He couldn't leave without KC Meredith taking his disobeyal of her orders (and unauthorized absence) as proof of blood magic and justification for the Right of Annulment.  That's even assuming that Orsino (who is cut off from the city) would know where to go.

Lelianna is a Seeker of the Chantry.  She is acting with the DIRECT authority of the DIVINE herself.  Lelianna is granted enough authority to do pretty much whatever she pleased INCLUDING the arrest and execution of both Meredith and Elthina (read the entries on Seekers).  It was up to Lelianna to go see Orsino if she really wanted to actually do her damned job and investigate the situation.  She doesn't.  The new Lelianna hates mages and is willing (apparently) to take Meredith's word for it.

-Polaris

I guess I missed where Lelianna expresses hate for mages...

[IanPolaris]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I guess I missed where Lelianna expresses hate for mages...

She's very anti-mage during the Faith mission.  Far more than her DAO background should justify.

-Polaris

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith taking power in Kirkwall was wrong why? "Because it is dictatorship!" False. Kirkwall is already a dictatorship ruled by its Viscount. "because she is a Templar!" where does it say a Templar can't rule? "Because it isn't right!" ... "Because it doesn't fit my view of the world of Thedas!!!1oneeleven"... Right...
Some of you really have to realize that Thedas doesn't function in the modern way, nor is it subject to our normal morals.

Actually, if the Viscount is elected by the socioeconomic / political elite, Kirkwall is probably more of what would be called an oligarchy.

[Killjoy Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I guess I missed where Lelianna expresses hate for mages...

She's very anti-mage during the Faith mission.  Far more than her DAO background should justify.

-Polaris

She is? 

[IanPolaris]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I guess I missed where Lelianna expresses hate for mages...

She's very anti-mage during the Faith mission.  Far more than her DAO background should justify.

-Polaris

She is? 

When she openly equates all mages to the Tevinter Magisters, I'd say she is.  I am far from the only one that's commented or complained about it either.

-POlaris

[Killjoy Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I guess I missed where Lelianna expresses hate for mages...

She's very anti-mage during the Faith mission.  Far more than her DAO background should justify.

-Polaris

She is? 

When she openly equates all mages to the Tevinter Magisters, I'd say she is.  I am far from the only one that's commented or complained about it either.

-POlaris

You mean when she warns that Kirkwall "falling to magic"? 

[IanPolaris]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You mean when she warns that Kirkwall "falling to magic"? 

Yep.  If you pick the correct dialog choices, she also says that Kirkwall can not become "another Imperium".  It's a matter I guess of not seeing what you don't want to see, but I assure you that a LOT of people read the new Lelianna as intensely anti-mage.  It's not just my imagination.

-Polaris

[Killjoy Cutter]

Given who Hawke and Lelianna just killed (a room full of Resolutionists), the presence of Teronhe and her cohorts, and what Anders ends up doing, I'd say that Lelianna's particular concern about Kirkwall is grounded in more than "hate". 

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, Act 2 or Act 3, she does send someone.  So she's clearly paying some attention.

Now, as to what Meredith told the Divine about the RoA - true, she could have said almost anything she wanted.  We'll never know, of course, as we'll never know what the Divine would have answered.  Obviously, you and I could debate how far from the truth she'd have to go to convince the Divine, but I don't think we need to do that.

But it seems that the Divine is checking into the Kirkwall situation, and taking it seriously, since she sent not just anyone, but Leliana.  So I'm not sure anyone can say she's criminally negligent or anything.

I don't think sending a messenger to tell one priestess to get out of the city before her army marches on it is exactly the same as checking on the situation.

Well, that's a question of what exactly Leliana was doing there.  Sure, if you think she was just delivering a message, fine.

But IMO, she was there for more.  She's the Divine's left hand, clearly trusted, and a close confidant/advisor.  You don't normally send someone like that to deliver a note and come home - you send them to look at things, and report back to you.  The message is the pretext.

And Leliana certainly has the skills to have looked into whatever the Divine wanted her to look into while she was there.

True enough.  I suppose then it's another case of "NO!  Hawke must be functionally retarded!" stopping us from just telling Leliana "Meredith's lost her mind" and averting the whole thing.

Pretty much. 

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think sending a messenger to tell one priestess to get out of the city before her army marches on it is exactly the same as checking on the situation.

Well, that's a question of what exactly Leliana was doing there.  Sure, if you think she was just delivering a message, fine.

But IMO, she was there for more.  She's the Divine's left hand, clearly trusted, and a close confidant/advisor.  You don't normally send someone like that to deliver a note and come home - you send them to look at things, and report back to you.  The message is the pretext.

And Leliana certainly has the skills to have looked into whatever the Divine wanted her to look into while she was there.

Leliana makes note that she's looking into what's going on in Kirkwall with the mages when she mentions the Resolutionists, while giving Hawke her real name (I suppose she takes after James Bond). She seems to be convinced that the Resolutionists are behind it because they attempted to murder her. Leliana is adamant that she's going to give a report that's going to condemn Kirkwall to an Exalted March, despite Hawke trying to tell her that Kirkwall has a chance.

Why has it taken three years for the Divine to send an agent to investigate the fact that one of their Knight-Commanders has taken political power over their base of operations over eastern Thedas?

Well, if I'm not mistaken, Hawke only tells her that if you want Hawke too . . .I'm pretty sure there's an option to essentially agree with her, no?

And hey, it's not like Justinia is getting reports by phone, fax or email . . . letters need to travel, decisions made, Leliana sent, etc.

I hardly think the Divine can be condemned for the game forcing a 3 year break on us.  We don't know exactly when Meredith took the power everyone wants to say she has, when she told the Divine, what she told the Divine, who else told the Divine and what and when, etc etc.

[TJPags]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Given who Hawke and Lelianna just killed (a room full of Resolutionists), the presence of Teronhe and her cohorts, and what Anders ends up doing, I'd say that Lelianna's particular concern about Kirkwall is grounded in more than "hate". 

Yes, but to Ian, the entire GAME is anti-mage, and anyone who "falls for it" is a moral monster.

Or a hypocrit. 

Or both.  I can't keep up.

[GavrielKay]

There've been all these questions about who knew what and who could be excused...

The story takes place over years. If we can have people say their Hawke was off screen saving a few innocent mages during the Right of Annulment, then I think I'll claim my Hawke was having lunch with Elthina every other Sunday telling her the latest stories I've heard and all about how Alain has been getting nightly visits. There's no reason to assume that the people in charge haven't been made aware. My Hawke sure was concerned once Bethany was taken to the circle. No way she was sitting around with her fingers crossed that Elthina might ask a few questions.

We have the ability in game to walk up to Meredith, Elthina, Cullen and until he's dead the Viscount. Does no one assume that our off screen time is spent talking and sending letters to all who will listen?

[Killjoy Cutter]

The game is full of those kinds of holes. The narrative structure guarantees it.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Some of you really have to realize that Thedas doesn't function in the modern way, nor is it subject to our normal morals.

Well, if more folks would say 'gee, I don't really think it's a moral thing, but my Hawke is a product of his/her time and was swayed by Meredith's argument' then we'd be better able to separate their actual ideals from how they play the game. 

If you make it sound like you actually think that it's ok for the people in charge to allow or not to notice that atrocities are being inflicted on people they have responsibility for, that's going to get a reaction.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The cause of Templar "abuse" which isn't really a major factor since they evidently don't happen on a large scale, is because the mages won't cooperate. The hate breeds hate, breeds contempt, breeds conflict. To claim either side as innocent is false, but to claim any other, but the man who could have stopped it, as the cause, is ignorant.

I love abuse in quotes as though rape, torture and being made Tranquil are arguably fun things that you sign up for on the volunteer board.

Large scale?  Exactly what scale is acceptable to you?  I'd say once the leadership were made aware of any incident they should be investigating and properly dealing with the offending Templar.  We know that Alric asked both Meredith and Elthina for permission to Tranquil all mages.  That in itself should have kicked off a thorough investigation into Alrik which I'm sure would have turned up the subordinate who didn't want to Tranquil Karl.

Hate may breed hate, but the Templars aren't merely men on the street who don't like their neighbors making noise late at night.  They have custody of other human beings.  They aren't supposed to play a vicisous cycle of hatred.  They have responsibilities to the people in their care that preclude them giving in to their contempt.

[Rifneno]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Anders and bin Ladin both believed that they had noble goals, and were willing to kill as many innocent people as it necessary to achieve those goals. 

This analogy is going to end very badly.  =/  Still, I'd like to point out that the difference was in their targets.  Anders attacked the organization governing his oppressors.  Bin Laden attacked a truly uninvolved party when he attacked the Towers.

In regards to Leliana, I also came off with the impression she was very anti-mage.  I was a big fan of hers in DAO.  In DA2, honestly I probably would've attacked her if I could.  I'd opt for some dialogue trying to see if she's just a bigot now or if she's working on misinformation from Meredith, but I'd sooner have her leave that room in a box than walk out to go tell the divine to prepare for a crusade.

GavrielKay wrote...

There've been all these questions about who knew what and who could be excused...

The story takes place over years. If we can have people say their Hawke was off screen saving a few innocent mages during the Right of Annulment, then I think I'll claim my Hawke was having lunch with Elthina every other Sunday telling her the latest stories I've heard and all about how Alain has been getting nightly visits. There's no reason to assume that the people in charge haven't been made aware. My Hawke sure was concerned once Bethany was taken to the circle. No way she was sitting around with her fingers crossed that Elthina might ask a few questions.

We have the ability in game to walk up to Meredith, Elthina, Cullen and until he's dead the Viscount. Does no one assume that our off screen time is spent talking and sending letters to all who will listen?

LOL.  Good point.  

I still can't believe how inane the thing with Bethany was handled.  If they had to have it this way then take Bethany when Hawke is away.  But to force every Hawke to stand aside while Bethany is kidnapped imprisoned is ridiculous.  Cullen should've been an optional crazyhard boss like Ser Cauthrien.

[IanPolaris]

OT but am I the only one having trouble saying logged on right now?

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

It's been stable for me.