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[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Tell that to all the Bush/Tea Party apologists I know.  

Could we leave real US politics out of that please...because I happen to have a different view myself than apparently you do as to what was "legal" and "illegal" and I'd like to leave it at that.

-Polaris

Not sure what you're referring to as far as that, but I don't have a view as to what is or isn't illegal--my opinion doesn't have any bearing on what is or is not lawful, obviously.  My opinions are usually whether or not I consider a given law to be morally right, or morally unjust.  If you're referring to what you referenced per Nuremberg, well, I fall solidly in line behind you on that one. 

But yes, we'll just leave it at that.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 04:50 .

[GavrielKay]

So, I'm slow on the background reading apparently and just read now that Meredith's sister became an abomination and killed her family and a large chunk of their village.

My opinion of Elthina has reached a new low. I'm not sure there's room to go down from here. And, I have a new theory on why she does nothing to stop what's happening. Guilt and shame for having promoted Meredith to Knight Commander in the first place. A background like that should have earned Meredith free lifetime counseling, not a job as warden of a prison of mages. What can Elthina do now that isn't admitting just how responsible she is for the torment of the mages?

I am now utterly convinced that Elthina is no innocent bystander. She's the root of the problem. I feel even less sorry for her pixels being hurled about the city. I still feel bad for the bystanders, but Elthina is a wretch. An entirely fictional character written for a video game, but still a wretch

I'm going to go read a nice happy book before trying to sleep.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

They should have concocted a better story around Bethany being taken. It just doesn't fit that Hawke wouldn't do anything to keep or free Bethany from the Templars. Better would have been a cut scene showing her being taken from Gamlen's house while you were away and your mother couldn't fight them.

Have any of you seen the short story that Hepler wrote about Anders merging with Justice? It's quite short and somewhat enlightening.

http://na.llnet.biow...ries/anders.pdf

Gah.  I hope they don't consider that canon.  "Not the aftermath of a battle as I've known it, but a bloody abattoir of rent limbs and torn and eaten flesh."  Torn and eaten flesh?  So now Justice is a cannibal?  Stupid.  And he's immune to mundane weapons?  WHAT?!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I thought to all the Cullen fans his dashing good looks were enough to do that.

I still don't know how that ****** has so many fans.  He supports the Tranquil Solution for cryin' out loud!

TobiTobsen wrote...

Oh... just wait. Somewhere along the way of the Dragon Age franchise he will lose his plot armor and I'll be right there to show him the errors of his way. Nobody touches Bethany and lives.

Don't start without me.  I want in on the whole "touch Bethany and die... if you're lucky" thing.

GavrielKay wrote...

So, I'm slow on the background reading apparently and just read now that Meredith's sister became an abomination and killed her family and a large chunk of their village.

My opinion of Elthina has reached a new low. I'm not sure there's room to go down from here. And, I have a new theory on why she does nothing to stop what's happening. Guilt and shame for having promoted Meredith to Knight Commander in the first place. A background like that should have earned Meredith free lifetime counseling, not a job as warden of a prison of mages. What can Elthina do now that isn't admitting just how responsible she is for the torment of the mages?

I am now utterly convinced that Elthina is no innocent bystander. She's the root of the problem. I feel even less sorry for her pixels being hurled about the city. I still feel bad for the bystanders, but Elthina is a wretch. An entirely fictional character written for a video game, but still a wretch

I'm going to go read a nice happy book before trying to sleep.

Yep, it's ridiculous isn't it?  The ironic part is that her and her legion of bigots would be the first ones to execute someone for helping their apostate sister the way Meredith did.  Hawke only gets away with Bethany because of plot armor.  In Act III we see a templar death squad (their name, not mine), like 10 armed soldiers, try to murder an unarmed woman for giving her apostate cousin one meal.  Yet the KC is responsible for an abomination that killed as many people as were used to warrant the very first right of annulment.  No double standards there!

Indeed, this is a big part of the problem.  The Chantry is so monumentally stupid that they think someone severely psychologically scarred by a magical atrocity is a good candidate for the organization watching over them.  We know the backgrounds of very few templars and we already know of two such examples (the other of course being Cullen).

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
Time to leave Kirkwall then.  There's nothing in Kirkwall worth sacrifcing Bethany's freedom for.  If I was in Hawke's position I wouldn't even need to think about it.  Bethany > staying in Kirkwall even if it means giving up the Deep Roads treasure.

Oh, as for the logging out thing, try emptying your cookies.  At least for this site.  Always fixes it for me, though obviously you've gotta log back in one more time after.

Bethany wants to stay in Kirkwall. She has lines (if you take her with you) in banter that suggests she is deeply affected and remorseful of the sacrifices her family made to keep her safe.

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Time to leave Kirkwall then.  There's nothing in Kirkwall worth sacrifcing Bethany's freedom for.  If I was in Hawke's position I wouldn't even need to think about it.  Bethany > staying in Kirkwall even if it means giving up the Deep Roads treasure.

Oh, as for the logging out thing, try emptying your cookies.  At least for this site.  Always fixes it for me, though obviously you've gotta log back in one more time after.

Bethany wants to stay in Kirkwall. She has lines (if you take her with you) in banter that suggests she is deeply affected and remorseful of the sacrifices her family made to keep her safe.

That's nice.  Compared with being Ser Alrik's tranquil love slave (and that's what you have to assume will happen), Bethany can suck it up and start somewhere else.

-Polaris

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
Yep, it's ridiculous isn't it?  The ironic part is that her and her legion of bigots would be the first ones to execute someone for helping their apostate sister the way Meredith did.  Hawke only gets away with Bethany because of plot armor.  In Act III we see a templar death squad (their name, not mine), like 10 armed soldiers, try to murder an unarmed woman for giving her apostate cousin one meal.  Yet the KC is responsible for an abomination that killed as many people as were used to warrant the very first right of annulment.  No double standards there!

I'm confused? Which abomination?

...And Meredith had a death squad? What the hell? Where is this in-game?

Indeed, this is a big part of the problem.  The Chantry is so monumentally stupid that they think someone severely psychologically scarred by a magical atrocity is a good candidate for the organization watching over them.  We know the backgrounds of very few templars and we already know of two such examples (the other of course being Cullen).

It's not entirely clear Thedas has a concept of psychological damage, beyond people ought and ought breaking down and going mad. Our society didn't until very recently.

[TobiTobsen]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Time to leave Kirkwall then.  There's nothing in Kirkwall worth sacrifcing Bethany's freedom for.  If I was in Hawke's position I wouldn't even need to think about it.  Bethany > staying in Kirkwall even if it means giving up the Deep Roads treasure.

Oh, as for the logging out thing, try emptying your cookies.  At least for this site.  Always fixes it for me, though obviously you've gotta log back in one more time after.

Bethany wants to stay in Kirkwall. She has lines (if you take her with you) in banter that suggests she is deeply affected and remorseful of the sacrifices her family made to keep her safe.

And yet she blames you as soon as you meet her in act 2. Grey Warden or circle mage, no difference.

"You didn't protect me!"

"Sorry sister. The game only allowed me to accept your 'don't start more trouble' statement and forced me to stand aside when Knight-Squeeeptain Cullen threatend me and our family and took you away to the tranquil-harem."

Railroaded into the player punch. Hooray!

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 07 mai 2011 - 11:40 .

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
That's nice.  Compared with being Ser Alrik's tranquil love slave (and that's what you have to assume will happen), Bethany can suck it up and start somewhere else.

-Polaris

Well, Hawke would have to imprison her, and then keep her from surrendering to the Circle wherever they went. If Bethany wants to turn herself in, short of violently kidnapping her there's nothing Hawke could do to keep her.

[In Exile]

TobiTobsen wrote...
And yet she blames you as soon as you meet her in act 2. Grey Warden or circle mage, no difference.

"You didn't protect me!"

"Sorry sister. The game only allowed me to accept your 'don't start more trouble' statement and forced me to stand aside when Knight-Squeeeptain Cullen threatend me and our family."

Railroaded into the player punch. Hooray!

Seriously? And I thought the "Me no mage! Fireball and meteors come from extra-big matches!" moments were bad.

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Time to leave Kirkwall then.  There's nothing in Kirkwall worth sacrifcing Bethany's freedom for.  If I was in Hawke's position I wouldn't even need to think about it.  Bethany > staying in Kirkwall even if it means giving up the Deep Roads treasure.

Oh, as for the logging out thing, try emptying your cookies.  At least for this site.  Always fixes it for me, though obviously you've gotta log back in one more time after.

Bethany wants to stay in Kirkwall. She has lines (if you take her with you) in banter that suggests she is deeply affected and remorseful of the sacrifices her family made to keep her safe.

I know.  It's that kind of heart that makes me think she's worth the sacrifice.  Even without metagaming knowledge of what the Kirkwall Circle is like, there's plenty of stuff you can pick up on in Act I to realize that hellhole is no place for someone like her.

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

I'm confused? Which abomination?

...And Meredith had a death squad? What the hell? Where is this in-game?

Her sister is the abomination.  That's Meredith's backstory.  She helped hide her apostate sister, whom eventually went abomination and killed 70 people.  So she flipped and became a psychotic anti-mage.

The quest A Noble Agenda you meet her death squad (the wiki refers to them as such even) who are about to execute a woman for giving an apostate a bowl of soup or something.

[Sylvianus]

I have not seen Leliana as anti-mage, but she assesses the threat posed by the Magi to Kirkwall, which is in fact undeniable. And a threat to the Chantry, and for the city, a city that is included IN the sphere of Chantry.

Leliana is a great believer, and she believes passionately in chantry 's stories , even though she can disagree, talking with her heart. For example, when she says that all people belong to the maker.

But it is clear that if mages become crazy enough to try to kill everyone without distinction against what she considers essential for the world, this Institution designated where she spends her life, she served diligently, as kill Eltina or otherwise, she will fight against them in my opinion.She has already foiled a conspiracy, and attempted to remove Eltina of the city, thinking her in danger.

I thought Leliana more neutral, and all she said in DA2, surprised me. She may not have changed, but certainly evolved.

Note that if she chose a camp, it does not mean she will not choose the path of peace and compromise. She simply has her ideals, and her limitations.

For Bethany, I also never understood why she wanted to stay in this city of fools, then it has always been afraid of the Templars. (yes for her mother, but that's it ? Oo)

It's sado-machismo.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 mai 2011 - 12:13 .

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...

I have not seen Leliana as anti-mage, but she assesses the threat posed by the Magi to Kirkwall, which is in fact undeniable. And a threat to the Chantry, and for the city, a city that is included IN the sphere of Chantry.

Leliana is a great believer, and she believes passionately in chantry 's stories , even though she can disagree, talking with her heart. For example, when she says that all people belong to the maker.

But it is clear that if mages become crazy enough to try to kill everyone without distinction against what she considers essential for the world, this Institution designated where she spends her life, she served diligently, as kill Eltina or otherwise, she will fight against them in my opinion.She has already foiled a conspiracy, and attempted to remove Eltina of the city, thinking her in danger.

I thought Leliana more neutral, and all she said in DA2, surprised me. She may not have changed, but certainly evolved.

Note that if she chose a camp, it does not mean she will not choose the path of peace and compromise. She simply has her ideals, and her limitations.

For Bethany, I also never understood why she wanted to stay in this city of fools, then it has always been afraid of the Templars. (yes for her mother, but that's it ? Oo)

It's sado-machismo.

Hmm... do I bother with this...  probably not a good idea...  =/  Oh well, nothing better to do...

1.  She believes passionately in the Maker and in Andraste, not necessarily the Chantry.  As you note, the holier-than-thou philosophy is the Chantry is a great example of how her faith is in the deity and not the organized religion.
2.  She's wholeheartedly against executing the Right of Annulment in Ferelden and the situation there was far more dire.  For the best example of Leliana's outlook go back to when you first meet her in Lothering.  After Loghain's belligerent moron squad tries to kill you and her, she pretty much begs you to spare their lives.  If you point out they aimed to butcher the lot of you (basically, "this is justice") she simply says "I do not wish death upon anyone."  I don't even remotely buy that she went from begging a stranger to spare the life of someone that almost killed her to endorsing holy war because of a small rebel minority.
3.  If she evolved, the next thing she'll be doing is decomposing if she keeps this up.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I still can't believe how inane the thing with Bethany was handled.

Going through on my rogue run, I appreciated having Bethany around more than Carver. When Cullen said he was taking Bethany, I chose the "Batman" (aggressive) option, and then watched the protagonist step aside as the templars took his sister away to prison.

It was ridiculous. After slaying an Abomination Profane and destroying the Ancient Rockwraith, you're telling me that two templars were going to threaten his little sister? And in Act II, Hawke doesn't say a damn thing to Cullen about Bethany - I thought the protagonist would try to rip off that templar's head for taking his baby sister away, but instead Hawke acts a fool and doesn't give a damn about what Cullen did. Cullen should have met the murder knife.

This annoyed me SOOO much.  A huge opportunity to actually DO something in the game . . .missed.

I didn't want to like Bethany because I was a bit put off by the concept of "you MUST have an apostate mage in the family".  But I did like her.  I kept her in my party CONSTANTLY and was always nervous whenever going near Templars for fear some big issue would come up.  But nothing.  Then I leave her home when I go to the Deep Roads, she gets taken by Cullen  - of all people, who's arse I had saved, with Bethany's HELP!!!! - and I can do nothing?  Really?  Make it so I can fight, but it turns Templars against me or something.  Or let me do nothing, and have BETHANY turn against me - maybe along with Anders, Merrill and Aveline!!!

Then - no interaction with her at all.  Can't see her.  Can't ask about her.  Did my Hawke not care anymore, or forget about her?  What happened?   Where's Bethany?

Oh yea - Grace got her.  Now I should care again.

Game missed.  And this is why, in the other thread, the whole Meredith killing Bethany thing just doesn't bother me.  The game didn't let me care.

[NanoKitty]

Rifneno wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I'm confused? Which abomination?

...And Meredith had a death squad? What the hell? Where is this in-game?

Her sister is the abomination.  That's Meredith's backstory.  She helped hide her apostate sister, whom eventually went abomination and killed 70 people.  So she flipped and became a psychotic anti-mage.

The quest A Noble Agenda you meet her death squad (the wiki refers to them as such even) who are about to execute a woman for giving an apostate a bowl of soup or something.

Yup, I just finished this quest in my current playthrough....  the poor woman is screaming about how all she did is feed her cousin (a mage), who had been whipped and half-starved, and the death squad already has her surrounded....

[Sylvianus]

@Rifelno.

Hmm... do I bother with this...  probably not a good idea...  =/  Oh well, nothing better to do...

Ok. Let us agree once and for all. If you want to discuss with me, removes that kind of stupid crap that did not fit, you get excited for anything whenever you speak, and enriches you anything with that kind of crap . It's not the first time. Less irony, less acidic remarks, (no you do not seem more intelligent with it) I'm sure it is not difficult. Keep in mind that each have his interpretations or opinions.

If you're still not capable, then indeed, you abstains like GravielKay, I don't care.

Now. Do you realize that what you say is no different than what I'm saying?

Let's go. :

1. She believes passionately in the Maker and in Andraste, not necessarily the Chantry. As you note, the holier-than-thou philosophy is the Chantry is a great example of how her faith is in the deity and not the organized religion.

What did I say? I said she believed the Chantry's stories. So Tvintide's empire and the city black, the story of Andraste, etc.. I never said she believed blindly in the religious organization. I never said the words she took everything they philosophize in the news and politics. Try to read less quickly, please.

Anyway I was talking of Kirkwall, andin the game Leliana considers the Magi as a threat. If you played the game, I think you can not deny that vision. And her words show clearly that what I said above is fact : " And a threat to the Chantry, and for the city, a city that is included IN the sphere of Chantry. "

2. She's wholeheartedly against executing the Right of Annulment in Ferelden and the situation there was far more dire. For the best example of Leliana's outlook go back to when you first meet her in Lothering. After Loghain's belligerent moron squad tries to kill you and her, she pretty much begs you to spare their lives. If you point out they aimed to butcher the lot of you (basically, "this is justice") she simply says "I do not wish death upon anyone." I don't even remotely buy that she went from begging a stranger to spare the life of someone that almost killed her to endorsing holy war because of a small rebel minority.

 Yes indeed. And ? Writing where you saw that I thought otherwise ? Again you distort what people say or understand never what you read ? Show me the sentence did you decide to believe I thought she would accept the cancellation without reasons, or even accept only that. On the contrary, I agree with you she will not accept it without reason, that's why I say she thinks with the heart and may disagree with Chantry.

What I tell MYSELF is that if mages kill everyone at any price, the innocents etc, then, yes, it struck her heart, she will fight mages. And it's perfectly in her character.

Leliana did not hesitate to want to oppose me, his friend when I wanted to violate the Andraste 's Ashes.

It is her heart and her personal beliefs that led her to do so, not Chantry, yes.

She simply has her ideals, and her limitations. Whichever side or direction.

But in fact it currently stands alongside Justinia, it is on the side of the Chanterie for the moment, it is not inconceivable that during a time she could see things with suspicion.

Leliana now serves Chantry and has the vision of Chantry about magi  when she travels to Kirkwall. So no she is not so indifferent to the Chantry you think.

Why did she not talk about Meredith? The extremist ? Only mages.

Also, She left the warden to return alongside Justinia, it is not nothing.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 mai 2011 - 01:16 .

[TobiTobsen]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I still can't believe how inane the thing with Bethany was handled.

Going through on my rogue run, I appreciated having Bethany around more than Carver. When Cullen said he was taking Bethany, I chose the "Batman" (aggressive) option, and then watched the protagonist step aside as the templars took his sister away to prison.

It was ridiculous. After slaying an Abomination Profane and destroying the Ancient Rockwraith, you're telling me that two templars were going to threaten his little sister? And in Act II, Hawke doesn't say a damn thing to Cullen about Bethany - I thought the protagonist would try to rip off that templar's head for taking his baby sister away, but instead Hawke acts a fool and doesn't give a damn about what Cullen did. Cullen should have met the murder knife.

This annoyed me SOOO much.  A huge opportunity to actually DO something in the game . . .missed.

I didn't want to like Bethany because I was a bit put off by the concept of "you MUST have an apostate mage in the family".  But I did like her.  I kept her in my party CONSTANTLY and was always nervous whenever going near Templars for fear some big issue would come up.  But nothing.  Then I leave her home when I go to the Deep Roads, she gets taken by Cullen  - of all people, who's arse I had saved, with Bethany's HELP!!!! - and I can do nothing?  Really?  Make it so I can fight, but it turns Templars against me or something.  Or let me do nothing, and have BETHANY turn against me - maybe along with Anders, Merrill and Aveline!!!

Then - no interaction with her at all.  Can't see her.  Can't ask about her.  Did my Hawke not care anymore, or forget about her?  What happened?   Where's Bethany?

Oh yea - Grace got her.  Now I should care again.

Game missed.  And this is why, in the other thread, the whole Meredith killing Bethany thing just doesn't bother me.  The game didn't let me care.

Canon Hawke is only motivated by coin. That's why he risks his ass to save some random blood mage cooperators from Starkhaven and fights a whole templar squad lead by Ser Karras, but didn't lift a finger when they take Bethany.

"Brother! Help me?"

"How much?"

"WHAT?! How much what?"

"How much coin do you pay me?"

"ARE YOU INSANE?!"

"Meh... I'm going to get a sandwich. Go ahead Cullen... the girl got no coin, so I won't fight you"

[IanPolaris]

Sylvianus wrote...
Why did she not talk about Meredith? The extremist ? Only mages.

Also, She left the warden to return alongside Justinia, it is not nothing.

And you wonder why I regard the "new" Lelianna as almost rabidly anti-mage when compared with DAO Lelianna?  Here's even more evidence of it.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

TobiTobsen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I still can't believe how inane the thing with Bethany was handled.

Going through on my rogue run, I appreciated having Bethany around more than Carver. When Cullen said he was taking Bethany, I chose the "Batman" (aggressive) option, and then watched the protagonist step aside as the templars took his sister away to prison.

It was ridiculous. After slaying an Abomination Profane and destroying the Ancient Rockwraith, you're telling me that two templars were going to threaten his little sister? And in Act II, Hawke doesn't say a damn thing to Cullen about Bethany - I thought the protagonist would try to rip off that templar's head for taking his baby sister away, but instead Hawke acts a fool and doesn't give a damn about what Cullen did. Cullen should have met the murder knife.

This annoyed me SOOO much.  A huge opportunity to actually DO something in the game . . .missed.

I didn't want to like Bethany because I was a bit put off by the concept of "you MUST have an apostate mage in the family".  But I did like her.  I kept her in my party CONSTANTLY and was always nervous whenever going near Templars for fear some big issue would come up.  But nothing.  Then I leave her home when I go to the Deep Roads, she gets taken by Cullen  - of all people, who's arse I had saved, with Bethany's HELP!!!! - and I can do nothing?  Really?  Make it so I can fight, but it turns Templars against me or something.  Or let me do nothing, and have BETHANY turn against me - maybe along with Anders, Merrill and Aveline!!!

Then - no interaction with her at all.  Can't see her.  Can't ask about her.  Did my Hawke not care anymore, or forget about her?  What happened?   Where's Bethany?

Oh yea - Grace got her.  Now I should care again.

Game missed.  And this is why, in the other thread, the whole Meredith killing Bethany thing just doesn't bother me.  The game didn't let me care.

Canon Hawke is only motivated by coin. That's why he risks his ass to save some random blood mage cooperators from Starkhaven and fights a whole templar squad lead by Ser Karras, but didn't lift a finger when they take Bethany.

"Brother! Help me?"

"How much?"

"WHAT?! How much what?"

"How much coin do you pay me?"

"ARE YOU INSANE?!"

"Meh... I'm going to get a sandwich. Go ahead Cullen... the girl got no coin, so I won't fight you"

Hawke didn't lift a finger, because Bethany asked him not to. Odd how so many of you will do anyhting for Bethany, short of actually do as she says, of course.

[LobselVith8]

Are you surprised people don't want Hawke to have his little sister in a toxic environment where there are rapist templars, incidents of illegal tranquility, mages getting whipped, and other horrors, EmperorSahlertz?

Honestly, I don't understand your complaint. Bethany is family - if Hawke cares about his little sister, he should do whatever it takes to protect her. Letting her get taken away by a templar who thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and are weapons isn't protecting his little sister, especially when he's picked up the note from the Templar Lieutenant about how Karl was made tranquil under dubious circumstances. Odd that you seem to take offense at those who would want to protect their little sister, EmperorSahlertz.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Some of you really have to realize that Thedas doesn't function in the modern way, nor is it subject to our normal morals.

I find this amusing because it's precisely because I'm viewing Kirkwall through the lens of the world presented to us that I am able to have so much sympathy for what Anders did and think of him as a desperate man who did what was necessary through the only means available to him in any practical sense, rather than dismiss him as a calculating murderer.

I think that, like it or not, being able to say "the ends don't justify the means," is, for all that it is a noble and worthy ideal, is in many ways a privileged way to think when you're part of the dominant group living in a comfortable age where the average person's level of health and hardship is at a far higher base level than it ever was for the vast majority of people for most of human history, and when direct, immediate threats to basic needs for survival are fairly remote.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 04:26 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The cause of Templar "abuse" which isn't really a major factor since they evidently don't happen on a large scale, is because the mages won't cooperate. The hate breeds hate, breeds contempt, breeds conflict. To claim either side as innocent is false, but to claim any other, but the man who could have stopped it, as the cause, is ignorant.

Wait wait wait.  Abuse in sneer quotes?  Really?  And rape and torture and illegal Tranquil-ing are only happening because the mages won't cooperate?  It would all go away if they'd just submit?

Wow.  That's...arguably the most baldly stated case of blaming the victim that I've ever read.  You're basically saying that the mages wouldn't be subjected to all that if they would just accept their lot and be good little slaves like the Chantry insists they be.

(Edited to fix quote misattribution).

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 05:47 .

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You mean when she warns that Kirkwall "falling to magic"? 

Yep.  If you pick the correct dialog choices, she also says that Kirkwall can not become "another Imperium".  It's a matter I guess of not seeing what you don't want to see, but I assure you that a LOT of people read the new Lelianna as intensely anti-mage.  It's not just my imagination.

-Polaris

I have to concur with this.  "When the hell did Leliana turn so anti-mage" is a question I've seen sprinkled throughout a number of boards, always with a following chorus of "OMG no kidding," rather than an ensuing debate as to whether Leliana really was being anti-mage during her cameo.

[NanoKitty]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The cause of Templar "abuse" which isn't really a major factor since they evidently don't happen on a large scale, is because the mages won't cooperate. The hate breeds hate, breeds contempt, breeds conflict. To claim either side as innocent is false, but to claim any other, but the man who could have stopped it, as the cause, is ignorant.

Wait wait wait.  Abuse in sneer quotes?  Really?  And rape and torture and illegal Tranquil-ing are only happening because the mages won't cooperate?  It would all go away if they'd just submit?

Wow.  That's...arguably the most baldly stated case of blaming the victim that I've ever read.  You're basically saying that the mages wouldn't be subjected to all that if they would just accept their lot and be good little slaves like the Chantry insists they be.

I agree.  I was a little floored by that.  
It's really hard to know how widespread the abuse is.... Aside from what comes out in plot points, there's an awful lot of conversation (not in a dialog) happening all throughout Kirkwall about the different abuses.  I'm tempted to start a new game and log down everything I see or hear.  I suspect it may be a larger list than one initially realizes.

Modifié par NanoKitty, 07 mai 2011 - 04:53 .

[TobiTobsen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke didn't lift a finger, because Bethany asked him not to. Odd how so many of you will do anyhting for Bethany, short of actually do as she says, of course.

Of course Bethany asks you to not interfere, but just because she asks for it, it doesn't mean that I would comply.

Would I let my sister run into a burning building or jump from a window in the third floor just because she asks me not to interfere? Hell no. Just like I wouldn't let the templars take her away to the Gallows, especially not after hearing all the rumors about the place, but the game forces me to stand aside like an apathetic fool.