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[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

So, I'm slow on the background reading apparently and just read now that Meredith's sister became an abomination and killed her family and a large chunk of their village.

My opinion of Elthina has reached a new low. I'm not sure there's room to go down from here. And, I have a new theory on why she does nothing to stop what's happening. Guilt and shame for having promoted Meredith to Knight Commander in the first place. A background like that should have earned Meredith free lifetime counseling, not a job as warden of a prison of mages. What can Elthina do now that isn't admitting just how responsible she is for the torment of the mages?

I am now utterly convinced that Elthina is no innocent bystander. She's the root of the problem. I feel even less sorry for her pixels being hurled about the city. I still feel bad for the bystanders, but Elthina is a wretch. An entirely fictional character written for a video game, but still a wretch

I'm going to go read a nice happy book before trying to sleep.

I know, right? I'm not aware of all the specifics--did Elthina know that much about Meredith's background?  If she did, you gotta wonder why the hell she thought it was a good idea for her to be the acting Knight Commander.  Even Gregoir understood that having Cullen stay in the Circle where he experienced torture at the hand of Uldred's cronies probably made an unsafe environment for mages there.

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

I still don't know how that ****** has so many fans.  He supports the Tranquil Solution for cryin' out loud!

For me, Cullen's portrayal is right up there with Meredith in the way she was openly depicted as unusually extreme, and then so out of control that her own people were wondering about her, even as you find scraps here and there that seem to be trying to suggest that she at least began the story as a reasonable person.  Cullen, now...I don't think anyone would argue that he doesn't have understandable reasons for his turnaround in beliefs on mages in Origins.  I thought that was handled quite well: a man who had nothing but sympathy for mages and thought their given lot was unfairly harsh, being forced into a complete mental 180.  And then in DA2, you had consistency to begin with: the game says he was promoted quickly and gained Meredith's trust because his views on mages were so closely aligned with hers.

And of course you get that lovely "mages aren't people like you and me," line, and "there's an argument to be made for expanding its application," regarding the Right of Annulment Rite of Tranquility.  Still in line with his fundamental change in beliefs on mages, so it at least makes sense even as it makes me want to gut punch him.

I suppose you could argue that his eventual defection from Meredith's ranks could be applied to his seeing her madness as generally bad for reasons above and beyond the "mage problem."  It's entirely believeable that a man could go through yet another evolution in beliefs, but I didn't find his sudden attack of semi-reasonableness believeable at all.  But people actually talk about him not only as if he's the voice of reason, but as if he's oh, so sympathetic to mages that he's their BFF, really!

(Edit: Mistyped Annulment where I meant Tranquility.  Sorry for any confusion).

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 05:54 .

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

I know.  It's that kind of heart that makes me think she's worth the sacrifice.  Even without metagaming knowledge of what the Kirkwall Circle is like, there's plenty of stuff you can pick up on in Act I to realize that hellhole is no place for someone like her.

No kidding.  The early Tranquility quest alone, I mean...if Hawke believes Anders that Karl was undeserving of being made Tranquil, as in he had committed no crime that called for it under Chantry law, and takes that to realize that Karl was basically Tranquiled for writing a letter to an apostate, and especially if she reads that letter from a templar who had serious doubts about the dubious reasons for making Karl Tranquil...

If your Hawke is being played as a protective older sibling who was right there with the rest of the family in keeping Bethany out of the Circle--and keep in mind that Malcolm himself was, IIRC, a Circle mage who was permitted to escape by a templar friend, so he would have raised his children with the belief that the Circle is not something to want--then you'd think that Bethany's plea to just let it happen so that they don't bring the wrath of the templar down on themselves would mean little.  I know that my Hawke, at least, was in a perpetual state of anxiety that her sister might breathe wrong and end up Tranquil after Bethany was taken to the Circle.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 05:56 .

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...

I have not seen Leliana as anti-mage, but she assesses the threat posed by the Magi to Kirkwall, which is in fact undeniable. And a threat to the Chantry, and for the city, a city that is included IN the sphere of Chantry.

That mages are a threat to Kirkwall is not an altogether unfair point, I will admit that much.  The crux of the matter, however, is why are they a threat?  If mages are a threat because they're being abused and dehumanized to the point of desperation, when they fight back with blood magic and by making demonic pacts, it's because they quite literally have nothing left to lose.  If it's the templars and their bat**** commander who are creating the problem that's driving the mages to this point, well...that matters.  It matter a great deal.  It's not something that a person who wants to solve the problem can just ignore, or pretend is irrelevant to the larger picture.  So even if Leliana is anti-mage, if its her job to find out WTF is going on in Kirkwall, then corrupt Circle wardens are part of the story.

Leliana is a great believer, and she believes passionately in chantry 's stories , even though she can disagree, talking with her heart. For example, when she says that all people belong to the maker.

I find myself agreeing more and more with people who say that Leliana's starting to sound a little...suspicious.  She may or may not be a true believer--there's one camp that thinks she's working for the Empress in Orlais, and that the whole devout believer bit is just an act.  But in Origins, her beliefs were portrayed as gentle and harmless, if a bit naive and, well, giving her a bit of a blind spot.  I saw her as having a sincere belief in the Maker, and in particular viewing him in ways not exactly endorsed by the Chantry--something she herself acknowledged, even as she also seemed to consider the Chantry a largely benign institution. In DA2 she seems to be more in line with official Chantry doctrine and a damn sight less benign in her beliefs.  Not a fanatic, really, but so convinced of the Chantry's inherent rightness that her blind spot's gotten a helluva lot bigger.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...

@Rifelno.

Hmm... do I bother with this...  probably not a good idea...  =/  Oh well, nothing better to do...

Ok. Let us agree once and for all. If you want to discuss with me, removes that kind of stupid crap that did not fit, you get excited for anything whenever you speak, and enriches you anything with that kind of crap . It's not the first time. Less irony, less acidic remarks, (no you do not seem more intelligent with it) I'm sure it is not difficult. Keep in mind that each have his interpretations or opinions.

Coming from someone who tells people they're exaggerating and making things up because of their personal biases, even after they've shoved direct, actual NPC quotes in their face, and goes all "OMG am I talking to small children?  Must I used small words!?" that's just rich.

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The cause of Templar "abuse" which isn't really a major factor since they evidently don't happen on a large scale, is because the mages won't cooperate. The hate breeds hate, breeds contempt, breeds conflict. To claim either side as innocent is false, but to claim any other, but the man who could have stopped it, as the cause, is ignorant.

Wait wait wait.  Abuse in sneer quotes?  Really?  And rape and torture and illegal Tranquil-ing are only happening because the mages won't cooperate?  It would all go away if they'd just submit?

Wow.  That's...arguably the most baldly stated case of blaming the victim that I've ever read.  You're basically saying that the mages wouldn't be subjected to all that if they would just accept their lot and be good little slaves like the Chantry insists they be.

I stopped even reading Emp's posts.  At least purposefully.  The one or two line posts it's hard *not* to read just by scanning your eyes over the page.  But yeah, he's a lost cause.  The templars are his eluvian.

Silfren wrote...
I have to concur with this.  "When the hell did Leliana turn so anti-mage" is a question I've seen sprinkled throughout a number of boards, always with a following chorus of "OMG no kidding," rather than an ensuing debate as to whether Leliana really was being anti-mage during her cameo.

The leading theory at the moment seems to be that her entire time with the Warden was an act.  She was still playing the bard, already a seeker (she has an amulet of the "chantry seekers" when she joins in DAO).  It'd be pretty contrived since, if she was just barding it up in DAO, she'd have done as she says and became the woman the Warden wanted.  Which means being a bloodthirsty monster if the Warden is.  Basically a handwaved plot hole necessary to keep her true intentions secret from the player rather than the Warden.

So... Anders, Justice, Leliana.  They really do love to butcher popular characters don't they?

TobiTobsen wrote...

Of course Bethany asks you to not interfere, but just because she asks for it, it doesn't mean that I would comply.

Would I let my sister run into a burning building or jump from a window in the third floor just because she asks me not to interfere? Hell no. Just like I wouldn't let the templars take her away to the Gallows, especially not after hearing all the rumors about the place, but the game forces me to stand aside like an apathetic fool.

Exactly.  Bethany isn't telling you to let it happen because she wanted to go the Circle, she was telling you to let it happen because she didn't want to put her brother/sister at significant risk by fighting and having them lose what little home they have by having to flee Kirkwall if victorious.  But if I want to take that risk, I should be able to.

Silfren wrote...
I suppose you could argue that his eventual defection from Meredith's ranks could be applied to his seeing her madness as generally bad for reasons above and beyond the "mage problem."  It's entirely believeable that a man could go through yet another evolution in beliefs, but I didn't find his sudden attack of semi-reasonableness believeable at all.  But people actually talk about him not only as if he's the voice of reason, but as if he's oh, so sympathetic to mages that he's their BFF, really!

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact he's always nice and polite to Hawke.  Nearly everybody in this game seems to be a douche, including a lot of your own team.  So when you finally run across a major character that acts like a civilized person in conversation, you automatically think they're a good guy.  Another big part of it is the dialogues that show his darker side are optional ones and to some degree more things someone who already considers the templars a problem would say.  I doubt many people realized you could show him Alrik's papers and those that did likely didn't take the "It sounds like you support this" dialogue because... well, you're accusing him of wanting to steal the souls of thousands of people.

Modifié par Rifneno, 07 mai 2011 - 05:48 .

[Silfren]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Would I let my sister run into a burning building or jump from a window in the third floor just because she asks me not to interfere? Hell no. Just like I wouldn't let the templars take her away to the Gallows, especially not after hearing all the rumors about the place, but the game forces me to stand aside like an apathetic fool.

Justice/Vengeance:  "You have given in to sloth!  You would stand by while mages are abducted and tortured!"

"But Bethany told me to!"

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 05:52 .

[Ryzaki]

I love that quote. I wanted to laugh and go. "I don't care about your stupid cause Justice. It's about time you realized that."

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

If your Hawke is being played as a protective older sibling who was right there with the rest of the family in keeping Bethany out of the Circle--and keep in mind that Malcolm himself was, IIRC, a Circle mage who was permitted to escape by a templar friend, so he would have raised his children with the belief that the Circle is not something to want--then you'd think that Bethany's plea to just let it happen so that they don't bring the wrath of the templar down on themselves would mean little.  I know that my Hawke, at least, was in a perpetual state of anxiety that her sister might breathe wrong and end up Tranquil after Bethany was taken to the Circle.

According to the Mage Pack DLC codex "The Fugitive's Mantle" Malcolm posed as a mercenary:

"Malcolm Hawke ranged the breadth of the Free Marches as he ran from the templars who pursued him. He often posed as a mercenary, and his substantial martial skills easily secured him positions in different bands. On one assignment for the Crimson Oars he was sent to Kirkwall, the seat of templar power in the region. He had every intention of staying there briefly, but fate had other plans."

And Malcolm's Bequest codex states:

"In Kirkwall, Malcolm met Leandra and, despite all common sense, courted her. The few times Leandra managed to slip away from her family, Malcolm showed her a whole new world, something completely different from her cloistered existence. It was dangerous, forbidden, and she quickly fell madly in love with the dashing Malcolm Hawke. These stolen moments would end all too soon.

One day, while fighting the Carta on the docks, Malcolm used magic to save the life of the Crimson Oars' leader. The Kirkwall templars were alerted, but Malcolm wouldn't flee the city without seeing his love one last time. He devised to meet her at the masked ball for the visiting Orlesian Empress.

Disguised in Orlesian robes, Malcolm slipped past the templars to dance with his love. At the end of the night, Leandra would not hear his goodbyes and chanced at happiness rather than face her gray prearranged future. Malcolm and Leandra ran into the night and never looked back."

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Mage Pack DLC codex "The Fugitive's Mantle" Malcolm posed as a mercenary:

"Malcolm Hawke ranged the breadth of the Free Marches as he ran from the templars who pursued him. He often posed as a mercenary, and his substantial martial skills easily secured him positions in different bands. On one assignment for the Crimson Oars he was sent to Kirkwall, the seat of templar power in the region. He had every intention of staying there briefly, but fate had other plans."

And Malcolm's Bequest codex states:

"In Kirkwall, Malcolm met Leandra and, despite all common sense, courted her. The few times Leandra managed to slip away from her family, Malcolm showed her a whole new world, something completely different from her cloistered existence. It was dangerous, forbidden, and she quickly fell madly in love with the dashing Malcolm Hawke. These stolen moments would end all too soon.

One day, while fighting the Carta on the docks, Malcolm used magic to save the life of the Crimson Oars' leader. The Kirkwall templars were alerted, but Malcolm wouldn't flee the city without seeing his love one last time. He devised to meet her at the masked ball for the visiting Orlesian Empress.

Disguised in Orlesian robes, Malcolm slipped past the templars to dance with his love. At the end of the night, Leandra would not hear his goodbyes and chanced at happiness rather than face her gray prearranged future. Malcolm and Leandra ran into the night and never looked back."

Thanks.  I haven't gotten that DLC yet so I wasn't up to snuff on Malcolm's backstory.  Is there anything that explains his relationship to Maurevar Carver?  I had thought they'd somehow become friends during Malcolm's stay in a Circle, but that didn't work with the established lore of his being from Ferelden.  So now I'm wondering why a Kirkwall templar would know a Ferelden runaway well enough to say "The Maker's will is not served by caging the best of us," or whatever the hell he said when he let him go.

[LobselVith8]

No problem, Silfren. I thought Malcolm was a Kirkwall Circle mage, too, for the same reasons, but it seems that isn't the case. There doesn't seem to be any reference to Maurevar Carver, which is odd since Tobrius seemed to know Malcolm as well.

It reminds me of Gaider saying that Anders was wrong when he said mages were slaves because he said they don't work for the Chantry, but he seemed surprised when I mentioned there were codex entries that said templars controlled mages and that referenced a mage not wanting to be a servant to the Chantry.

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed, this is a big part of the problem.  The Chantry is so monumentally stupid that they think someone severely psychologically scarred by a magical atrocity is a good candidate for the organization watching over them.  We know the backgrounds of very few templars and we already know of two such examples (the other of course being Cullen).

It does make me wonder how anyone can defend the Chantry's motives as somehow being the best for all concerned.  I get much more of a hate the mages vibe than a protect the citizens vibe.

You don't protect citizens by having guards who drive the mages to their limits.  When the violence is happening because of how the mages are treated, then treating them worse can hardly be considered the actual solution.  It's pathetic that the Templar solution to 'oops, we've driven the mages insane and now they threaten the population' is to blame the mages and slaughter them all. 

They don't even play at addressing the real problem with any sort of 'while we're at it, we'll get rid of guards who think raping helpless mages is just in an evening's work.'

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

Well, Hawke would have to imprison her, and then keep her from surrendering to the Circle wherever they went. If Bethany wants to turn herself in, short of violently kidnapping her there's nothing Hawke could do to keep her.

Bethany wants Hawke to be safe and not risk the Templars' wrath.  That's not the same thing as wanting to live in the circle.  We should have argued mother out of going to Kirkwall in the first place.  Why go to the seat of Templar power in the Free Marches??  Once we have our Deep  Roads loot and Ferelden is safe from the Blight, we should pack up  Bethany and hide out in some nice friendly village under King Alistair's more benign rule.

[TEWR]

It's possible he was a Fereldan Circle mage transferred to the Kirkwall Circle, and then he went apostate and started living as a mercenary.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It reminds me of Gaider saying that Anders was wrong when he said mages were slaves because he said they don't work for the Chantry, but he seemed surprised when I mentioned there were codex entries that said templars controlled mages and that referenced a mage not wanting to be a servant to the Chantry.

Ha.  I remember that...  though the best example I didn't know about at the time, apparently there's a tranquil in in Act I that asks you not to steal anything from their shop because the templars whip them (the tranquil, not the thieves) if they lose merchandise.  Nooo, not slavery at all!  

[Sylvianus]

[quote]Are you serious Silren ? Are you kidding here? Is this a atittude dishonest to think that you have a biased viewpoint and you exaggerated when you talk about genocide or Eltina is not guilty ? O____O It is impossible ?
　
bBased point of view you know what that means? it simply means that the person did not step back enough in the point. lots of people have it out in a lengthy debate that I feel offended ... Oo
　
It's just a passive sense, you see the harm in it yourself? just wow.
　
And when Gravel told that our reaction is shifted to the murder of Eltina, so do I have a bad reaction ? Oo No, because she had the right to think that like I had this right to thinks that. and it was expression of her sentiment.............

I have more than once justified the view skewed by the contradictions of some. (not all)

When pro-magi tell me that I exaggerate and I make a bad analogy with terrorism is wrong ? Oo It's supposed to be a halt to the debate? This attitude is pending with the serenity of a debate? Not at all, they are entitled to think that.

I frankly do not see the relevance in your comments. And I do not see the relevance of your input on when to drop the matter and return to the topic.

[quote]all "OMG am I talking to small children? Must I used small words!?" that's just rich.[/quote]
Ask yourself the question as to when it was said and why. I talked to almost everyone without a hitch, except at that time. . Really weird. Why ? Yes strange, I struggled with a lot of people by focusing on reasonable remarks while being extremely disagree. Why suddenly I leave something like that with some people ? Weird. But lol. 　
Briefly, end of this silly story.

@Ian Polis
　
No she is not anti-mage for me because it does not consider all mages as a threat, it's the mages of Kirkwall, the problem. Remember she was not present at the scene, and it does not really know the situation. She has a biased viewpoint. She has surely heard of all that, at the Kirkwall Chantry . And the fact that she thwarts a plot confirms her idea that the Krikwall Magi' s may be a threat. I say " can "
　
But yes, for ME, given what she said, Leliana has seen Kirkwall's mages more a threat than Meredith.
　
Leliana argued mages against the ROA in Ferelden, she was on the ground, no doubt that she will resume, begin again if she sees injustice that hits before her eyes. It has not changed. It's her heart that speaks and governs her beliefs.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 mai 2011 - 07:18 .

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

It's not entirely clear Thedas has a concept of psychological damage, beyond people ought and ought breaking down and going mad. Our society didn't until very recently.

You shouldn't need in depth training in psychological damage to assume that Meredith's feelings about mages were affected by her experience with her sister.  Someone who had every reason to hate and fear mages should not have been put in charge of their care.  Elthina is either uncaring, stupid or evil to do so.  None of those possibilities speak highly of her.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It reminds me of Gaider saying that Anders was wrong when he said mages were slaves because he said they don't work for the Chantry, but he seemed surprised when I mentioned there were codex entries that said templars controlled mages and that referenced a mage not wanting to be a servant to the Chantry.

I saw that thread, and the various discussions as to whether or not it was slavery.  I'm still amazed that so many people think that since the institutional system of imprisoning mages doesn't specifically mirror a particular example of slavery in exactitude, that that means it's not slavery--and throw in comments like "real slaves/real slave descendents would take issues with the comparison." 

That mages aren't literal workers for the Chantry hardly means that they aren't slaves.  And Gaider's intelligent enough to realize that.  We do have a real world historical example that parallels the fictitious setting in various key ways: what was happening to the Jewish population during 1940s Germany.  Slavery indeed.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

I saw that thread, and the various discussions as to whether or not it was slavery.  I'm still amazed that so many people think that since the institutional system of imprisoning mages doesn't specifically mirror a particular example of slavery in exactitude, that that means it's not slavery--and throw in comments like "real slaves/real slave descendents would take issues with the comparison." 

Since the mages are totally controlled by the Chantry - can be moved around, kept in cells, forbidden family contact and utterly denied the right to choose how to live - whether you can it slavery becomes a matter of semantics.  Like yesterday's discussion of murder/terrorism:  the word carries with it a connotation that can't be avoided.  To some slavery means a very specific thing.  The mages lives are lived totally at the mercy of others, that's close enough to slavery to me.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

No problem, Silfren. I thought Malcolm was a Kirkwall Circle mage, too, for the same reasons, but it seems that isn't the case. There doesn't seem to be any reference to Maurevar Carver, which is odd since Tobrius seemed to know Malcolm as well.

Missed this, for some reason.  Anyway, I remembered that Malcolm was clearly established as being from Ferelden, but when it's shown that he was good friends with a Kirkwall templar, I originally took that to mean that he'd been transferred from Ferelden to Kirkwall, or something.  His being a Fereldan apostate is given so much emphasis, though, that that doesn't seem to fit.  And now, with his apparently being a runaway apostate the whole time he was in Kirkwall, I don't get how he was ever in a position to become good friends with one of that city's templars.  

Gah.  Just another story that wasn't properly fleshed out before being released, I think.

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...
That mages aren't literal workers for the Chantry hardly means that they aren't slaves.  And Gaider's intelligent enough to realize that.  We do have a real world historical example that parallels the fictitious setting in various key ways: what was happening to the Jewish population during 1940s Germany.  Slavery indeed.

In a lot of ways it's worse than conventional slavery, and DG and I have exchanged some very hot and very bitter missives about this.  I really don't think that DG "gets" how much of our humanity and freewill (he really needs to read John Locke sometime) is tried intrinsically to our ability to feel and emphathize.  In any event, what I find so appalling about (involuntary) tranquility is not only do you get a fleshy automaton that follows orders without thinking (a tranquil), but they lose all ability to escape from that because the emotional drive that makes the human and would make them WANT to be free has been permanently removed.

Tranquility is thus worse than death.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquility is thus worse than death.

-Polaris

Tranquility is like death for you, but someone else gets to keep using your body to perform complex tasks.  Extremely creepy and horrifying.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 07 mai 2011 - 07:45 .

[IanPolaris]

GavrielKay wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquility is thus worse than death.

-Polaris

Tranquility is like death for you, but someone else gets to keep using your body to perform complex tasks.  Extremely creepy and horrifying.

Which makes it worse than death.  I see it like living in a glass cage while someone else manipulated my body to their commands...and even that IMO doesn't do it justice.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

It does make me wonder how anyone can defend the Chantry's motives as somehow being the best for all concerned.  I get much more of a hate the mages vibe than a protect the citizens vibe.

You don't protect citizens by having guards who drive the mages to their limits.  When the violence is happening because of how the mages are treated, then treating them worse can hardly be considered the actual solution.  It's pathetic that the Templar solution to 'oops, we've driven the mages insane and now they threaten the population' is to blame the mages and slaughter them all. 

They don't even play at addressing the real problem with any sort of 'while we're at it, we'll get rid of guards who think raping helpless mages is just in an evening's work.'

Makes you wonder at Orsino's question, "Why don't they just drown us as infants?  Why give us the illusion of hope?"

Answer: because if you kill them as infants, then sadists like Ser Alrik don't get free access to an entire population of people for whom they are all but given official sanction to abuse thanks to the cultural assumptions engineered by the dominant religio-political body.  Its an institution that practically flashes a neon sign reading "Possessed of socially unacceptable urges against your fellow beings?  Step right up, we've got what you need!"

More and more I'm seeing eerily dead-on parallels to real world religious institutions with a history of sanctioning abuse as divine will.

[TEWR]

Meredith is letting her own personal trauma interfere with her job.

She paints all mages as maleficar with the same broken brush, thinking they're one step away from letting a demon take over.

Thrask is the example of what a Templar should be. He knows that mages are dangerous, yet also treats them all as should be treated.

"Apostate? I'll try to convince him/her to join the Circle. Maleficar? I guess I'll have to kill this mage, sadly unless they repent. Circle mage? I'll be friendly, yet wary, with them because Templars are supposed to protect the mages from the people just as much as the reverse."