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[KnightofPhoenix]

Whenever I think of Tranquils, I am reminded of the Jedi Code and it makes my blood boil.

[Xilizhra]

Interesting... aren't you all about logic?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Interesting... aren't you all about logic?

Logic is a tool. Without passion to drive and motivate us, logic has no use.

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough. Though I think the Jedi position is that the Force makes passion unnecessary.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Bethany wants Hawke to be safe and not risk the Templars' wrath.  That's not the same thing as wanting to live in the circle.  We should have argued mother out of going to Kirkwall in the first place.  Why go to the seat of Templar power in the Free Marches??  Once we have our Deep  Roads loot and Ferelden is safe from the Blight, we should pack up  Bethany and hide out in some nice friendly village under King Alistair's more benign rule.

No kidding.  Especially after having made it your life's mission to lay low in order to protect Bethany from being taken to the Circle.  Why in the bloody hell would you go back to Templar Central?  Seems like after living on the run, never settling down for years and years, living well below your financial means, staying on the outskirts of town, and basically hamstringing your own life's prospects for the sake of staying out of the Circle...that boils down to thinking that any freedom at all is better than being in the Circle, since hamstringing your life in that way and always being on alert, looking over your shoulder, is not what I would call true freedom.  So it was obviously damned important.  Strikes me that having family back in Kirkwall pales in comparison to all that.  Would have been better written for Kirkwall to literally have been the only place they had to go, somehow.

[Xilizhra]

This, all in all, makes me think that while many elements of the mage story don't work, a mage Hawke's story makes more sense from the outset because mage Hawke can be all "I ain't afraid of no templars!"

But how does Wardening Bethany go? I've never seen it.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

This, all in all, makes me think that while many elements of the mage story don't work, a mage Hawke's story makes more sense from the outset because mage Hawke can be all "I ain't afraid of no templars!"

But how does Wardening Bethany go? I've never seen it.

Not all the way done in that playthrough yet, but I can verify that Bethany resents the hell out of you for a while.  Maybe she doesn't necessarily wish you'd mercy-killed her instead, but she is definitely bitter that she was tainted while you were unscathed, and she got forced into a life with unpleasant side effects that she wouldn't have freely chosen.  As I understand it, she eventually becomes more accepting, at least appreciating that you did it for the right reasons.

[GavrielKay]

It's sad, but the more I think about it the more the game loses its replay value. I don't feel excited about watching the train wreck happen over and over again.

I have trouble seeing more than the intellectual rationale behind the opposing side. I don't really feel that the Templar's basic purpose of 'protecting ordinary people from mages' is right, because I can see so many ways that it would work better. I've said it before - the people's right to feel safe isn't more important than the mages basic human rights.

I'm going to go on a ramble here, don't flame me

If you take a very broad look at the concept - people don't really even have a right to BE safe. Even in modern life which is very sheltered compared to the game world we accept all kinds of risks in order to do the things we want to do. Driving, flying, heck even walking along a busy street has risks that we accept because we want to participate in modern life.

You don't have a right to lock up everyone who enjoys a beer now and then because some of those people will try to drive while intoxicated. You have to wait for them to actually do it, and then punish them accordingly.

We don't go into Somalia and raze the place even if we might eliminate pirates because it wouldn't be right. You can't indiscriminately kill everyone in a place even if it would prevent the next ship from being taken hostage.

The game world is a risky place for anyone who doesn't have plot armor. Thugs, assassins and Qunari armies abound. There is no actual safety. The possible threat that any given mage presents is just a fact of life. I just can't get behind the Templars at all and the game doesn't let me beat them. *sigh*

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This, all in all, makes me think that while many elements of the mage story don't work, a mage Hawke's story makes more sense from the outset because mage Hawke can be all "I ain't afraid of no templars!"

But how does Wardening Bethany go? I've never seen it.

Not all the way done in that playthrough yet, but I can verify that Bethany resents the hell out of you for a while.  Maybe she doesn't necessarily wish you'd mercy-killed her instead, but she is definitely bitter that she was tainted while you were unscathed, and she got forced into a life with unpleasant side effects that she wouldn't have freely chosen.  As I understand it, she eventually becomes more accepting, at least appreciating that you did it for the right reasons.

Yeah, Bethany eventually forgives you, but she is (and it's clear) terribly, terribly unhappy as a warden.  I find that Bethany is happiest ironically enough as a Circle mage in spite of the circle abuses (and she finds herself at the end as a self-appointed mother figure of a new mage order).  Carver OTOH is much, much better off if you make him a warden...and at the end will flat out admit as much.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough. My decision to have Bethany join the Circle is renewed, then.

And yes, I agree that Carver is far better off as a Warden.

[TEWR]

I make them both Wardens. They'll do more good as Wardens it seems

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquility is thus worse than death.

-Polaris

It's a monstrous prospect, to live in an environment where you can have your humanity stripped from you. It ruins the rogue experience for me that Hawke would know the dangers that his baby sister would face, but he wouldn't stop Cullen from taking her away and imprisoning her in the Gallows when she constantly runs the risk of being made tranquil in the same fashion that Karl was. Even Keeper Marethari seemed to see it as the death of a person's soul when Hawke aids her with Feynriel. I honestly don't understand why Gaider tried to make it seem like it wasn't a big deal to have your emotions permanently severed from you when we see Karl begging Anders to be killed rather than live out the rest of his days as a "templar puppet."

GavrielKay wrote...

Tranquility is like death for you, but someone else gets to keep using your body to perform complex tasks. Extremely creepy and horrifying.

Exactly. When I went through the Magi Origin and heard Jowan talking about the Rite of Tranquility, it seemed monstrous. Seeing Owain devoid of emotion, and eventually encountering them cleaning the storeroom while abominations were roaming the Circle Tower, I couldn't think of anything more vile to do to a person than to rob them of their agency and what makes them human (or elven, as the case may be). Turning mages tranquil and getting them do manual labor, craft magical items, and manage their stores seems to be very lucrative for the Chantry - I can see why they keep such a horrific tool in use when it provides them with willing thralls.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquility is thus worse than death.

-Polaris

It's a monstrous prospect, to live in an environment where you can have your humanity stripped from you. It ruins the rogue experience for me that Hawke would know the dangers that his baby sister would face, but he wouldn't stop Cullen from taking her away and imprisoning her in the Gallows when she constantly runs the risk of being made tranquil in the same fashion that Karl was. Even Keeper Marethari seemed to see it as the death of a person's soul when Hawke aids her with Feynriel. I honestly don't understand why Gaider tried to make it seem like it wasn't a big deal to have your emotions permanently severed from you when we see Karl begging Anders to be killed rather than live out the rest of his days as a "templar puppet."

GavrielKay wrote...

Tranquility is like death for you, but someone else gets to keep using your body to perform complex tasks. Extremely creepy and horrifying.

Exactly. When I went through the Magi Origin and heard Jowan talking about the Rite of Tranquility, it seemed monstrous. Seeing Owain devoid of emotion, and eventually encountering them cleaning the storeroom while abominations were roaming the Circle Tower, I couldn't think of anything more vile to do to a person than to rob them of their agency and what makes them human (or elven, as the case may be). Turning mages tranquil and getting them do manual labor, craft magical items, and manage their stores seems to be very lucrative for the Chantry - I can see why they keep such a horrific tool in use when it provides them with willing thralls.

It seems that in most cases of a mage "freely" choosing to be made Tranquil, it involves them having a do-or-die choice between undergoing the Harrowing or the Rite.  Gee.  Forced to live in an environment most of your life where you've had it made clear in no uncertain terms how evil and vile and dangerous demons are, and how much death and destruction they can cause on their own, much less when they possess a mage, and then one night you're dragged out of bed to undergo your Harrowing, having no idea beforehand--or at least you're not supposed to--what the Harrowing is going to involve, so you have no idea until you're in the Harrowing Chamber that you're about to be thrown into the Fade to face one of those demons, that could be anything from a relatively less dangerous rage demon to an extremely dangerous one of pride...and all based on someone else deciding that it's your turn to be thrown to the wolves, whether or not you actually feel ready.  Oh, and then they tell you that if you fail this test, you're going to be cut down.  Which may seem like a choice between hanging or beheading at that point.  Or, hey, if you're too chicken**** for that, we can just make you immune to demonic influence by severing you from the Fade.  Oh, by the way, this means you'll never feel emotion ever again!

There's choices, and then there's free choices.  A choice between **** and crap is...not a true choice.  Not when you've deliberately been denied full knowledge of what those choices entail, and not when you're not even given the opportunity to decide when you're ready to face it.  

The Rite of Tranquility itself, it's not like you can give it a test run to see if it's something you can or would want to live with, so it doesn't strike me as any better for a mage to willingly choose it, especially under the normal Circle conditions.

And unless you're a person who is in such a deep and lasting state of depression that you are perpetually miserable, I can't really fathom a situation in which any person would willingly sever their capacity for emotion if they didn't feel that the only other available option was unbearable.  So when I hear Cullen suggesting that the Rite of Tranquility was created as a somehow more humane option than just outright killing a mage...good Gods I hate that guy, and the more I examine all the facets of Circle life, the more I'm convinced that the entire Chantry, and all of its sweet, innocent Grand Clerics, need to be blown clear off the face of Thedas.

OT: Non-mages have access to the Fade as well as mages, they just can't enter it in a conscious state (without Somniari intervention), and it seems its this connection to the Fade that is the seat of emotion.  I wonder if non-mages can be made Tranquil.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2011 - 10:32 .

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This, all in all, makes me think that while many elements of the mage story don't work, a mage Hawke's story makes more sense from the outset because mage Hawke can be all "I ain't afraid of no templars!"

But how does Wardening Bethany go? I've never seen it.

Not all the way done in that playthrough yet, but I can verify that Bethany resents the hell out of you for a while.  Maybe she doesn't necessarily wish you'd mercy-killed her instead, but she is definitely bitter that she was tainted while you were unscathed, and she got forced into a life with unpleasant side effects that she wouldn't have freely chosen.  As I understand it, she eventually becomes more accepting, at least appreciating that you did it for the right reasons.

Yeah, Bethany eventually forgives you, but she is (and it's clear) terribly, terribly unhappy as a warden.  I find that Bethany is happiest ironically enough as a Circle mage in spite of the circle abuses (and she finds herself at the end as a self-appointed mother figure of a new mage order).  Carver OTOH is much, much better off if you make him a warden...and at the end will flat out admit as much.

-Polaris

She joins you in lowtown and fights with you all the way. Just before the end fight you have a nice chat with her and she.. well you should just play it. She doesn't act like a self appointed anything all the resentment is forgotten after. It concludes your relationship with her alone, not any order.

[TobiTobsen]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This, all in all, makes me think that while many elements of the mage story don't work, a mage Hawke's story makes more sense from the outset because mage Hawke can be all "I ain't afraid of no templars!"

But how does Wardening Bethany go? I've never seen it.

Not all the way done in that playthrough yet, but I can verify that Bethany resents the hell out of you for a while.  Maybe she doesn't necessarily wish you'd mercy-killed her instead, but she is definitely bitter that she was tainted while you were unscathed, and she got forced into a life with unpleasant side effects that she wouldn't have freely chosen.  As I understand it, she eventually becomes more accepting, at least appreciating that you did it for the right reasons.

Yeah, Bethany eventually forgives you, but she is (and it's clear) terribly, terribly unhappy as a warden.  I find that Bethany is happiest ironically enough as a Circle mage in spite of the circle abuses (and she finds herself at the end as a self-appointed mother figure of a new mage order).  Carver OTOH is much, much better off if you make him a warden...and at the end will flat out admit as much.

-Polaris

She joins you in lowtown and fights with you all the way. Just before the end fight you have a nice chat with her and she.. well you should just play it. She doesn't act like a self appointed anything all the resentment is forgotten after. It concludes your relationship with her alone, not any order.

She isn't angry at Hawke anymore, but she still resents being a warden. Not really surprising since she got the worst side effects of the taint. Nightmares every night have to suck.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Interesting... aren't you all about logic?

Logic is a tool. Without passion to drive and motivate us, logic has no use.

And as it turns out, actually illogical in our behaviour. As it turns out, emotions are very important in regulating reasonable behaviour (like not gambling on an unfair bet).

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It reminds me of Gaider saying that Anders was wrong when he said mages were slaves because he said they don't work for the Chantry, but he seemed surprised when I mentioned there were codex entries that said templars controlled mages and that referenced a mage not wanting to be a servant to the Chantry.

Different writers write different entries. I think this is just a case of the left not knowing what the right is doing.

GavrielKay wrote...Bethany wants Hawke to be safe and not
risk the Templars' wrath.  That's not the same thing as wanting to live
in the circle.  We should have argued mother out of going to Kirkwall
in the first place.  Why go to the seat of Templar power in the Free
Marches??  Once we have our Deep  Roads loot and Ferelden is safe from
the Blight, we should pack up  Bethany and hide out in some nice
friendly village under King Alistair's more benign rule.

No - Bethany wants stability for her family. She wants to be safe (from the templars) but she recognizes the sacrifices made for her sake and she feels guilty. Going to Kirkwall isn't dumb (rich & powerful Amells; better the templars than the blight) but staying...

...Well, the plot demands it, right?

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
You shouldn't need in depth training in psychological damage to assume that Meredith's feelings about mages were affected by her experience with her sister.  Someone who had every reason to hate and fear mages should not have been put in charge of their care.  Elthina is either uncaring, stupid or evil to do so.  None of those possibilities speak highly of her.

You do. Because if someone seems okay, the reasonable guess isn't persistent emotional trauma.

As to Meredith being in charge, I think the counter-argument is that is precisely the sort of person who should be put in charge: someone who knows what caring can lead to, and what mages ostensibly 'are' (demon magnets, that is).

If you legitimately believe the stakes are that high, a tempered Meredith is not an idiotic or evil choice. But Meredith was off the looney train.

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
If you take a very broad look at the concept - people don't really even have a right to BE safe. Even in modern life which is very sheltered compared to the game world we accept all kinds of risks in order to do the things we want to do. Driving, flying, heck even walking along a busy street has risks that we accept because we want to participate in modern life.

That's a terrible argument. If you won't grant the natural right approach to safety, you can't give it for liberty. No one has a 'right' to be free. There are lots of existential trappings - where your born, what gender you are, what abilities you have, etc. More broadly, there is absolutely nothing to stop or make demands on another person to allow you freedom other than the belief you ought to be free.

If you want a state of nature approach, well, neither freedom nor safety is a right.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
It seems that in most cases of a mage "freely" choosing to be made Tranquil, it involves them having a do-or-die choice between undergoing the Harrowing or the Rite.  Gee. 

Tranquility is a horror, but there are mages (e.g. Owain) who wanted to be Tranquil (or maybe the Ostagar Tranquil). The idea being that for some (the weak-willed, untallented, etc.) being a mage is a horror because you can't really control your magic well and demons constantly nip at your heels to possses you.

It's a kind of suicide, but not really.

Nothing to be said for the absolute horror that forced tranquility would be. 

And unless you're a person who is in such a deep and lasting state of depression that you are perpetually miserable, I can't really fathom a situation in which any person would willingly sever their capacity for emotion if they didn't feel that the only other available option was unbearable. 

The game fails to really portray it, but lore-wise mages are supposed to be tormented by their talent to some extent.

[Lewie]

TobiTobsen wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This, all in all, makes me think that while many elements of the mage story don't work, a mage Hawke's story makes more sense from the outset because mage Hawke can be all "I ain't afraid of no templars!"

But how does Wardening Bethany go? I've never seen it.

Not all the way done in that playthrough yet, but I can verify that Bethany resents the hell out of you for a while.  Maybe she doesn't necessarily wish you'd mercy-killed her instead, but she is definitely bitter that she was tainted while you were unscathed, and she got forced into a life with unpleasant side effects that she wouldn't have freely chosen.  As I understand it, she eventually becomes more accepting, at least appreciating that you did it for the right reasons.

Yeah, Bethany eventually forgives you, but she is (and it's clear) terribly, terribly unhappy as a warden.  I find that Bethany is happiest ironically enough as a Circle mage in spite of the circle abuses (and she finds herself at the end as a self-appointed mother figure of a new mage order).  Carver OTOH is much, much better off if you make him a warden...and at the end will flat out admit as much.

-Polaris

She joins you in lowtown and fights with you all the way. Just before the end fight you have a nice chat with her and she.. well you should just play it. She doesn't act like a self appointed anything all the resentment is forgotten after. It concludes your relationship with her alone, not any order.

She isn't angry at Hawke anymore, but she still resents being a warden. Not really surprising since she got the worst side effects of the taint. Nightmares every night have to suck.

I know, she/he asked how the wardening Bethany played out. Not what Bethany was thinking. People should be allowed to make that judgement themselves.

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

If you want a state of nature approach, well, neither freedom nor safety is a right.

It's not so much a state of nature approach as since you can't truly be safe in any absolute way (especially in a place like Thedas) then why focus so much fear and hatred at just one source?  If it's merely because human beings are easier to cage than hurricanes or wild bears then that's not a great reason.

Do you think the game world would be a significantly more dangerous place if circles were schools instead of prisons and the social view of mages was as healers rather than cursed souls?

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

No - Bethany wants stability for her family. She wants to be safe (from the templars) but she recognizes the sacrifices made for her sake and she feels guilty. Going to Kirkwall isn't dumb (rich & powerful Amells; better the templars than the blight) but staying...

...Well, the plot demands it, right?

Indeed, plots are so demanding.

Thing is, any real sister of mine would know how much more of a sacrifice it was to wake up every morning and know Bethany was in that horrible place.  So even though the plot demands that we rationalize it somehow, I don't think that explanation works either. 

And once we realized that our rich and powerful Kirkwall family was reduced to one sniveling uncle, I'd have said, oh great, our bags aren't even unpacked, let's go somewhere else.

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

Tranquility is a horror, but there are mages (e.g. Owain) who wanted to be Tranquil (or maybe the Ostagar Tranquil). The idea being that for some (the weak-willed, untallented, etc.) being a mage is a horror because you can't really control your magic well and demons constantly nip at your heels to possses you.

I could imagine being willingly Tranquiled if you are too weak to keep out the demons and too scared to opt for outright death.  In a barely corresponding analogy, we have people here and now losing themselves in drugs and alcohol because they don't want to actually face their life but can't bring themselves to end it either.  There's bound to be a few in 1000 years of history who wanted to contribute somehow to life without wondering when they'd wake up an abomination.

But as you say, forced Tranquiling is an entirely different matter.  Sitting around wondering when a Templar will Tranquil you for sending a letter to someone they don't like is pretty horrible.

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

You do. Because if someone seems okay, the reasonable guess isn't persistent emotional trauma.

Perhaps we have different ideas of what seems ok.  I get worried the moment she was arguing against Orsino helping storm the Viscount's keep during the Qunari attack.  Why turn down any help we can get?  The city is under attack for goodness sake.  If her stated purpose it to make Kirkwall safer she's not doing a good job there.

The she gives me the evil eye after I defeat the Arishok without her precious personage helping out.  She's jealous of anyone else having influence and admiration among the people.  Now you don't have to be scarred for life to be power hungry, but geez, I've just saved the city, maybe lay off the glare for a few minutes?

As to Meredith being in charge, I think the counter-argument is that is precisely the sort of person who should be put in charge: someone who knows what caring can lead to, and what mages ostensibly 'are' (demon magnets, that is).

I think that could be exactly what the Chantry and Grand Cleric Elthina are thinking, but I believe it's terrible.  Sure, if you are dead set on the idea of circles as prisons, you've got to have a strong warden...  but fair minded and even tempered would be better.  Putting someone in charge who's pushing the mages to break and then using that to justify pushing them is vicious.

But Meredith was off the looney train.

And there we agree completely.  It seems the idol latched onto the paranoia she had naturally and turned it up to 11.