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[Xilizhra]

I really don't know how much her sword did until she actually drew it... she seemed stable until then, if evil.

[GavrielKay]

Xilizhra wrote...

I really don't know how much her sword did until she actually drew it... she seemed stable until then, if evil.

I'd be tempted to agree   but you can have a chat with Cullen at some point and he mentions that she's gotten noticably worse after Act 1.  Since he's a bit of an extreme zealot himself, I suppose we can trust him to notice when she's gotten really bad.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This, all in all, makes me think that while many elements of the mage story don't work, a mage Hawke's story makes more sense from the outset because mage Hawke can be all "I ain't afraid of no templars!"

But how does Wardening Bethany go? I've never seen it.

Not all the way done in that playthrough yet, but I can verify that Bethany resents the hell out of you for a while.  Maybe she doesn't necessarily wish you'd mercy-killed her instead, but she is definitely bitter that she was tainted while you were unscathed, and she got forced into a life with unpleasant side effects that she wouldn't have freely chosen.  As I understand it, she eventually becomes more accepting, at least appreciating that you did it for the right reasons.

Yeah, Bethany eventually forgives you, but she is (and it's clear) terribly, terribly unhappy as a warden.  I find that Bethany is happiest ironically enough as a Circle mage in spite of the circle abuses (and she finds herself at the end as a self-appointed mother figure of a new mage order).  Carver OTOH is much, much better off if you make him a warden...and at the end will flat out admit as much.

-Polaris

She joins you in lowtown and fights with you all the way. Just before the end fight you have a nice chat with her and she.. well you should just play it. She doesn't act like a self appointed anything all the resentment is forgotten after. It concludes your relationship with her alone, not any order.

Yeah, and if you're referring to the qunari battle, that "nice" chat involves very thinly veiled hostility on Bethany's part.  Seriously, her resentment toward Hawke isn't really player interpretation.  Also, her codex states that she is resentful toward Hawke for the reasons I stated. She doesn't "fight with you all the way" in Lowtown, either.  She's fighting with the Wardens, not Hawke, and runs into Hawke's group in the process.  They don't talk until the fight is over, and then the Wardens themselves keep their reunion extremely brief, because of that unnamed Important Business the Wardens are on their way to dealing with.

[Agamo45]

GavrielKay wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed, this is a big part of the problem.  The Chantry is so monumentally stupid that they think someone severely psychologically scarred by a magical atrocity is a good candidate for the organization watching over them.  We know the backgrounds of very few templars and we already know of two such examples (the other of course being Cullen).

It does make me wonder how anyone can defend the Chantry's motives as somehow being the best for all concerned.  I get much more of a hate the mages vibe than a protect the citizens vibe.

You don't protect citizens by having guards who drive the mages to their limits.  When the violence is happening because of how the mages are treated, then treating them worse can hardly be considered the actual solution.  It's pathetic that the Templar solution to 'oops, we've driven the mages insane and now they threaten the population' is to blame the mages and slaughter them all. 

They don't even play at addressing the real problem with any sort of 'while we're at it, we'll get rid of guards who think raping helpless mages is just in an evening's work.'

Annuling the Circle was the only viable short-term solution. After Anders blew up the Chantry the mages were going on a rampage in the streets, as evidenced by the blood mages and abominations that you encounter. Order had to be restored to protect the citizens of Kirkwall, and the only way to do that was to wipe out the rebelling Circle.

[GavrielKay]

Agamo45 wrote...

Annuling the Circle was the only viable short-term solution. After Anders blew up the Chantry the mages were going on a rampage in the streets, as evidenced by the blood mages and abominations that you encounter. Order had to be restored to protect the citizens of Kirkwall, and the only way to do that was to wipe out the rebelling Circle.

Annuling the circle was the only viable option according to Meredith the crazy zealot with idol-fever.  The mages went on a rampage because Meredith declares she's going to kill them down to the last child. 

I argue that the citizens could have been better protected if the Templars had locked up the Gallows and helped the city guard work the streets.

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Annuling the Circle was the only viable short-term solution. After Anders blew up the Chantry the mages were going on a rampage in the streets, as evidenced by the blood mages and abominations that you encounter. Order had to be restored to protect the citizens of Kirkwall, and the only way to do that was to wipe out the rebelling Circle.

Annuling the circle was the only viable option according to Meredith the crazy zealot with idol-fever.  The mages went on a rampage because Meredith declares she's going to kill them down to the last child. 

I argue that the citizens could have been better protected if the Templars had locked up the Gallows and helped the city guard work the streets.

Not to go into right or wrong of the Anullment again, but as to the Templars, they couldn't keep mages in the Gallows throughout the game. Why think they could do so now?

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...
Yeah, and if you're referring to the qunari battle, that "nice" chat involves very thinly veiled hostility on Bethany's part.  Seriously, her resentment toward Hawke isn't really player interpretation.  Also, her codex states that she is resentful toward Hawke for the reasons I stated. She doesn't "fight with you all the way" in Lowtown, either.  She's fighting with the Wardens, not Hawke, and runs into Hawke's group in the process.  They don't talk until the fight is over, and then the Wardens themselves keep their reunion extremely brief, because of that unnamed Important Business the Wardens are on their way to dealing with.

Yeah.  There's even dialogue at the end about her resentfulness.  "I'm sorry... you saved my life and I didn't even realize it."

Agamo45 wrote...
Annuling the Circle was the only viable short-term solution. After Anders blew up the Chantry the mages were going on a rampage in the streets, as evidenced by the blood mages and abominations that you encounter. Order had to be restored to protect the citizens of Kirkwall, and the only way to do that was to wipe out the rebelling Circle.

*facepalm*

You can't try to kill someone, then use the damage they cause in self-defense to justify killing them in the first place.  That's not only circular logic, it's magnificently stupid.

[Agamo45]

Rifneno wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yeah, and if you're referring to the qunari battle, that "nice" chat involves very thinly veiled hostility on Bethany's part.  Seriously, her resentment toward Hawke isn't really player interpretation.  Also, her codex states that she is resentful toward Hawke for the reasons I stated. She doesn't "fight with you all the way" in Lowtown, either.  She's fighting with the Wardens, not Hawke, and runs into Hawke's group in the process.  They don't talk until the fight is over, and then the Wardens themselves keep their reunion extremely brief, because of that unnamed Important Business the Wardens are on their way to dealing with.

Yeah.  There's even dialogue at the end about her resentfulness.  "I'm sorry... you saved my life and I didn't even realize it."

Agamo45 wrote...
Annuling the Circle was the only viable short-term solution. After Anders blew up the Chantry the mages were going on a rampage in the streets, as evidenced by the blood mages and abominations that you encounter. Order had to be restored to protect the citizens of Kirkwall, and the only way to do that was to wipe out the rebelling Circle.

*facepalm*

You can't try to kill someone, then use the damage they cause in self-defense to justify killing them in the first place.  That's not only circular logic, it's magnificently stupid.

It's a good enough excuse. The Kirkwall Circle was corrupt from top to bottom, even Orsino turns out to be a maleficar, or is hiding one.

[Rifneno]

Agamo45 wrote...
It's a good enough excuse. The Kirkwall Circle was corrupt from top to bottom, even Orsino turns out to be a maleficar, or is hiding one.

Riiight, side with a rapists, murderers, and outright terrorists (see: templar death squad) to cleanse the city of evil.  That makes perfect sense.

[LobselVith8]

Agamo45 wrote...

Annuling the Circle was the only viable short-term solution. After Anders blew up the Chantry the mages were going on a rampage in the streets, as evidenced by the blood mages and abominations that you encounter. Order had to be restored to protect the citizens of Kirkwall, and the only way to do that was to wipe out the rebelling Circle.

Murdering men, women, and children wasn't the only viable solution. Meredith could have kept the enchanters, mages, and apprentices in the Gallows, which is seperated from the mainland by water. Instead, Meredith chose to condemn mages who played no part in one apostate's actions with a death sentence. An act of genocide was ordered against mages who were innocent of Anders' actions, and it lead to templars fighting mages in the street - how was this restoring order when it caused anarchy? The person who was protecting the civilians wasn't the Knight-Commander, but Guard-Captain Aveline and her men.

[Agamo45]

Rifneno wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...
It's a good enough excuse. The Kirkwall Circle was corrupt from top to bottom, even Orsino turns out to be a maleficar, or is hiding one.

Riiight, side with a rapists, murderers, and outright terrorists (see: templar death squad) to cleanse the city of evil.  That makes perfect sense.

The mages were the murderers and terrorists. Maybe you missed the part where one blew up the Chantry, indiscriminately killing civilians? Anders wasn't working alone, he was part of an underground organization. You fight terror with terror.

Modifié par Agamo45, 08 mai 2011 - 05:08 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Not to go into right or wrong of the Anullment again, but as to the Templars, they couldn't keep mages in the Gallows throughout the game. Why think they could do so now?

I'm certain that living in an enviornment where you can get lashed, raped, or made tranquil doesn't give incentive for mages to remain, much less sending out templar troops to murder every Circle mage in Kirkwall for an act they had nothing to do with.

Agamo45 wrote...

It's a good enough excuse. The Kirkwall Circle was corrupt from top to bottom, even Orsino turns out to be a maleficar, or is hiding one.

We don't have sufficient information to make any genuine determination about the Circle of Kirkwall when our information is mostly based on encounters with apostates who were outside the Gallows, and our exposure to Circle mages was very limited and varied - from First Enchanter Orsino to the enchanter Bethany. All you're doing now is blaming the entire Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of mages who were outside of the Gallows, and many had no known ties to the Circle. What we do know is that they are innocent of the reason Meredith asks Hawke for aid - the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry.

[Rifneno]

Agamo45 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...
It's a good enough excuse. The Kirkwall Circle was corrupt from top to bottom, even Orsino turns out to be a maleficar, or is hiding one.

Riiight, side with a rapists, murderers, and outright terrorists (see: templar death squad) to cleanse the city of evil.  That makes perfect sense.

The mages were the murderers and terrorists. Maybe you missed the part where one blew up the Chantry, indiscriminately killing civilians? Anders wasn't working alone, he was part of an underground organization. You fight terror with terror.

They were fighting terror with terror.

Oh, you meant the templars.  Sorry, I was paying attentiont to the storyline.

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Not to go into right or wrong of the Anullment again, but as to the Templars, they couldn't keep mages in the Gallows throughout the game. Why think they could do so now?

I guess it depends on how many you think have escaped vs. how many were successfully contained.  Also, remind me, do we ever hear that they Templars have institued an honest to goodness lock down that mages still escaped from prior to the end game?  It's possible, but I don't remember it for a fact, so we might not know how successful it would be.

[hoorayforicecream]

Rifneno wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...
It's a good enough excuse. The Kirkwall Circle was corrupt from top to bottom, even Orsino turns out to be a maleficar, or is hiding one.

Riiight, side with a rapists, murderers, and outright terrorists (see: templar death squad) to cleanse the city of evil.  That makes perfect sense.

Far be it from me to get between a zealot and the target of his righteous wrath, but you do know that the "death squad" term is not actually canon, but was written by a wikia contributor, right? It's just another fan's interpretation.

Besides, the term "death squad" gets a bad rap anyway. A lot of liberals called Seal Team 6 Cheney's Death Squad, and they're the same guys currently being hailed as heroes who took out some al qaeda terrorist dude that made all the news for the past week or two.

[LobselVith8]

Agamo45 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Riiight, side with a rapists, murderers, and outright terrorists (see: templar death squad) to cleanse the city of evil. That makes perfect sense.

The mages were the murderers and terrorists. Maybe you missed the part where one blew up the Chantry, indiscriminately killing civilians? Anders wasn't working alone, he was part of an underground organization. You fight terror with terror.

The mages weren't terrorists, the mage underground was about Circle mages trying to escape from a system that Anders and a pro-mage Hawke describe as slavery. And you're right - Anders wasn't working alone, because Hawke is the one who can help him. Given that Anders admits that the underground has collapsed and he's pretty much all alone, there's no evidence he had aid from anyone other than the Champion himself. So we're back to the fact that countless men, women, and children are going to be brutally murdered for something that they had absolutely nothing to do with.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Not to go into right or wrong of the Anullment again, but as to the Templars, they couldn't keep mages in the Gallows throughout the game. Why think they could do so now?

I'm certain that living in an enviornment where you can get lashed, raped, or made tranquil doesn't give incentive for mages to remain, much less sending out templar troops to murder every Circle mage in Kirkwall for an act they had nothing to do with.

Lob, come on.  Stop already, will you?

I said nothing about Anders.  I even specifically said "NOT to go into the right or wrong".

I was simply stating that there was no indication the Templars could keep mages in the Gallows at any other time, why should we think they could do so at the end game point?

Do you have to go into your rape, tranquiled, and I see you added lashed now, routine in every response you make?

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Lob, come on.  Stop already, will you?

I said nothing about Anders.  I even specifically said "NOT to go into the right or wrong".

I'm addressing that there's a reason mages are trying to escape the Gallows. We see that it's one of the worst Circles in Thedas.

TJPags wrote...

I was simply stating that there was no indication the Templars could keep mages in the Gallows at any other time, why should we think they could do so at the end game point?

The issue is Meredith never tried to prevent bloodshed, she ordered an act of genocide and ignored the man responsible.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Far be it from me to get between a zealot and the target of his righteous wrath, but you do know that the "death squad" term is not actually canon, but was written by a wikia contributor, right? It's just another fan's interpretation.

Besides, the term "death squad" gets a bad rap anyway. A lot of liberals called Seal Team 6 Cheney's Death Squad, and they're the same guys currently being hailed as heroes who took out some al qaeda terrorist dude that made all the news for the past week or two.

Are we talking about the templars who want to murder a woman because she gave her tortured mage cousin a bowl of soup? I don't see how condemning those templars makes Rifneno a "zealot" but a human being who adhors the torture and murder of people.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 mai 2011 - 05:20 .

[erilben]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Far be it from me to get between a zealot and the target of his righteous wrath, but you do know that the "death squad" term is not actually canon, but was written by a wikia contributor, right? It's just another fan's interpretation.

Besides, the term "death squad" gets a bad rap anyway. A lot of liberals called Seal Team 6 Cheney's Death Squad, and they're the same guys currently being hailed as heroes who took out some al qaeda terrorist dude that made all the news for the past week or two.

I don't think I did the quest. But doesn't look like it was just some wiki contributor is making making it up. I looked in the talktable. I found:  "The knight-commander's death squad was killed." .

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Far be it from me to get between a zealot and the target of his righteous wrath, but you do know that the "death squad" term is not actually canon, but was written by a wikia contributor, right? It's just another fan's interpretation.

Besides, the term "death squad" gets a bad rap anyway. A lot of liberals called Seal Team 6 Cheney's Death Squad, and they're the same guys currently being hailed as heroes who took out some al qaeda terrorist dude that made all the news for the past week or two.

Oh goodie, it's hoorayformisinformation back with more misinformation!  No, it's not something from a wikia contributor.  It's the actual in-game name.  Try checking your facts once in a while, it really does help.

So because some pundits misused a term, it no longer has its valid definition?  No.

[TEWR]

Annuling the Circle was the only viable short-term solution. After Anders blew up the Chantry the mages were going on a rampage in the streets, as evidenced by the blood mages and abominations that you encounter. Order had to be restored to protect the citizens of Kirkwall, and the only way to do that was to wipe out the rebelling Circle.

I didn't realize self-defense from wholesale slaughter by an insane woman was a crime, especially when the slaughter is invoked for an act committed by an apostate.

And also: Aveline, her husband Donnic, and the rest of the guard are protecting the citizens. NOT Meredith.

[GavrielKay]

Agamo45 wrote...

The mages were the murderers and terrorists. Maybe you missed the part where one blew up the Chantry, indiscriminately killing civilians? Anders wasn't working alone, he was part of an underground organization. You fight terror with terror.

Some mages were murderers and terrorists.  The ones being obedient and staying put we never get to meet.  Do you know that we couldn't accomplish protecting the citizens by doing an Origins style purge of the circle while allowing the innocents to live?  Because you're only supposed to call a Right (Rite?) of Annulment as a last resort.  Irredeemable is a pretty harsh judgement and I don't think Meredith can be trusted to make that call, since she asked for it even before Anders blew up the Chantry when things weren't so bad.  Remember that Anders' act was only her excuse to Hawke, she wanted to do it long before then.

From the codex:

Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to
prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry
the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable. This
Rite of Annulment has been performed 17 times in the last 700 years.

Edit:  fixed spelling

Modifié par GavrielKay, 08 mai 2011 - 05:30 .

[hoorayforicecream]

erilben wrote...

I don't think I did the quest. But doesn't look like it was just some wiki contributor is making making it up. I looked in the talktable. I found:  "The knight-commander's death squad was killed." .

Oh, I didn't check the talk table. Thanks for the correction. I stand corrected.

Rifneno wrote...

Oh goodie, it's hoorayformisinformation back with more misinformation!  No, it's not something from a wikia contributor.  It's the actual in-game name.  Try checking your facts once in a while, it really does help.

So because some pundits misused a term, it no longer has its valid definition?  No.

The pundits didn't misuse the term. It's applicable. A death squad is a group of people whose purpose is to kill other people. It just seems like it has a negative connotation because pundits tend to use it when folks sympathize with the victims. If they were taking out only maleficarum and abominations (or bad guy terrorist leaders), they'd still be a death squad. They'd just be hailed as heroes for doing it.

How goes the crusade to change everyone's stance on the mage/templar conflict to yours? It sure seems to be going well, you've certainly got me convinced. I like how you use the thinly veiled hostility, that really works to help convince folks they're wrong and come to see things your way.

[GavrielKay]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

How goes the crusade to change everyone's stance on the mage/templar conflict to yours? It sure seems to be going well, you've certainly got me convinced. I like how you use the thinly veiled hostility, that really works to help convince folks they're wrong and come to see things your way.

Speaking of hostility...

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Lob, come on.  Stop already, will you?

I said nothing about Anders.  I even specifically said "NOT to go into the right or wrong".

I'm addressing that there's a reason mages are trying to escape the Gallows. We see that it's one of the worst Circles in Thedas.

TJPags wrote...

I was simply stating that there was no indication the Templars could keep mages in the Gallows at any other time, why should we think they could do so at the end game point?

The issue is Meredith never tried to prevent bloodshed, she ordered an act of genocide and ignored the man responsible.

And none of that has anything to do with what I mentioned.  smh

nevermind