4350 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Agamo45 wrote...

The mages were the murderers and terrorists. Maybe you missed the part where one blew up the Chantry, indiscriminately killing civilians? Anders wasn't working alone, he was part of an underground organization. You fight terror with terror.

Maybe you missed Anders' line about how the Mage Underground was destroyed and what mages that were a part of it no longer are. Maybe you missed the very huge part where Anders IS AN APOSTATE.

There is also no evidence to say his plan for the Chantry bombing was a collaborative effort by all the mages of the resistance. So don't act like it was.

[hoorayforicecream]

GavrielKay wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

How goes the crusade to change everyone's stance on the mage/templar conflict to yours? It sure seems to be going well, you've certainly got me convinced. I like how you use the thinly veiled hostility, that really works to help convince folks they're wrong and come to see things your way.

Speaking of hostility...

What? I love mages. They totally deserve to be free. Yay mages! Boo Meredith! Boo templars!

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

And none of that has anything to do with what I mentioned. 

I respectfully disagree. The harmful enviornment of the Gallows is the reason why mages keep running from it, and it's the crux of the situation you mentioned: mages being outside of the Gallows, and templars being unable to prevent this. I'd agree it's not the whole issue - I'm certain that Meredith's power play also played a role, and having templars occupy the Viscount's Keep demonstrated the reign of the de facto dictator, but the templars couldn't keep some mages in the Gallows because of the way some templars acted towards the mages, and the overall enviornment that was both mentally and physically harmful to them.

Do you honestly think mages would have been fighting templars in the streets if they were tasked with keeping the mages safe, rather than aiming to kill them with swords of mercy?

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The pundits didn't misuse the term. It's applicable. A death squad is a group of people whose purpose is to kill other people. It just seems like it has a negative connotation because pundits tend to use it when folks sympathize with the victims. If they were taking out only maleficarum and abominations (or bad guy terrorist leaders), they'd still be a death squad. They'd just be hailed as heroes for doing it.

Wrong, yet again.  A death squad is an armed military, police, insurgent, or terrorist squad that conducts extra-judicial killings, assassinations, and forced disappearances of persons as part of a war, insurgency or terror campaign.  Let's see here.  I don't think there's a war between the Order of Templars and peasants who give their tortured cousins a bowl of soup.  An insurgency would require the templars to be fighting against a constituted authority rather than for it.  So there's only one option left... terrorism.

How goes the crusade to change everyone's stance on the mage/templar conflict to yours? It sure seems to be going well, you've certainly got me convinced. I like how you use the thinly veiled hostility, that really works to help convince folks they're wrong and come to see things your way.

Oh good, now you're telling me my motives.  Here I thought I was just chatting with some folks and making an occasional snarky wisecrack towards people that are clearly unreasonable (such as "the RoA is okay because you have to fight terrorism with terrorism").  I had no idea I was trying to change everyone's stance!  Thanks for informing me.  Seems kind of odd I would be since I generally gave up on that years ago after noticing about 0.04% of well thought out debates actually end in someone changing their mind.  But if you say that's what I'm after, it must be what I'm after.

Seriously though, who the hell are you to talk about thinly veiled hostility?  You just popped your head in this debate to call me a zealot in your first sentence.  Not that it bothers me.  I told you weeks ago I have no respect for you after you went on a sarcastic, self-superior diatribe against IanPolaris for stating the meaning of a word, genocide, because you and your breathren can't handle unpleasantly accurate labels.  And no, that doesn't hold true for anyone who supports the templars.  Many of them support their beliefs with rational debates.  I don't agree with them, but I respect them.

Modifié par Rifneno, 08 mai 2011 - 06:02 .

[nos_astra]

I remember reading that Dragon Age was inspired by "A Song of Ice and Fire". I can certainly see glimpses of this inspiration here and there in the lore, but overall the Dragon Age games seem liked a sanitized version that fail to portray the lore in consistent way.

• The prisoner at Ostagar is left to starve in a cage, technically awaiting proper execution if anyone in charge could be bothered, for attempted desertion.
• Howe massacred the entire Cousland family and expected people to ignore this because he would totally tell the country that they had been in cahoots with the Orlesians.
• Daveth was to be excuted for theft.
• Goldanna was sent on her way with a bit of coin when her mother died in childbirth.
• The Vael family traditonally gives their youngest child to the chantry.
• The Arl of Redcliffe was suspected to be Alistair's father because had the boy sleep in his stables and later sent to the chantry for military training. This was considered unusually kind.
• Isabela's mother married her to an older man at a very young age. She was freed from this marriage when an assassin killed her husband.
• Merrill was seperated from her parents at a very young age so Marethari would have an apprentice.
• Morrigan was raised by a witch and witnessed (and helped) her mother luring men in to the forrest (probably to be killed).
• Anders has spent a few years in the Fereldan Circle and by his own words has never been subject to abuse. That, of course, is ignoring the part where he spent a year in solitary confinement and suffered a beating after his seventh escape attempt.
• Nathaniel Howe can be executed just for being his fathers son, breaking in his old home and being openly hostile.

The Qunari don't value personal freedom and think even the templars don't fully grasp the danger mages pose to the society. It makes Cullen look like an activist for mage freedom. Let's not speak of the elves who are considered inferior and treated badly, unless it's inconvenient for the plot/companion. Or the Dalish who despise humans to a point where randomly killing villagers/travelers in the forest seems to be an acceptable option, unless you're wearing the Plot Armour of Awesome (or the amulett of Asha'Belenar).

It's a pity they don't keep this up. I still think, the templar/mage conflict is not written with a modern POV in mind, but since the games fail to consistently introduce the actual mindset of the average Thedoasian things are dragged out of context.

What's so wrong with a Circle system that provides relative safety and education when these things are special in Thedas? Why get upset that children are seperated from home when these things happen outside the Circle, too? There are laws that should prevent abuse and a system to control the templars. Just like outside the Circle law enforcement seems to be somewhat lacking, which is to be expected when people are used to rely on hearsay and news that travel by horse.

I'm not entirely convinced that personal freedom would be considered that important in Thedas. I know, it is in our world, but is it even true for Thedas?

Sometimes it's like the Dragon Age lore is written with something entirely else in mind and the games are an inconsistent, sanitized, dumbed down version of what it should have been.

Modifié par klarabella, 08 mai 2011 - 09:26 .

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote..
Oh bolluxs.  Cullen outright states
that the only reason that Bethany is being taken alive AND you aren't
being killed/imprisoned for harboring he is because the the Viscount's
influence.  That's right from the damned GAME.

Try it yourself and this time go throught ALL the dialog trees. 
If you pick the diplomatic response, Cullen specifically says that it's
the viscount's influence that is keeping her and you alive.

Ok this time I just played this scene and reloaded to see all dialogue options from Diplomatic, Sarcastic and Agressive and Cullen doesn't mention this at all. He only says that because she has cooperated the others will be spared punishment for harboring an apostate. He never mentioned anything to do with the Viscounts influence. I didn't hear anything at all to do with this in the game.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 mai 2011 - 10:05 .

[Plaintiff]

klarabella wrote...
I still think, the templar/mage conflict is not written with a modern POV in mind, but since the games fail to consistently introduce the actual mindset of the average Thedoasian things are dragged out of context.

What's so wrong with a Circle system that provides relative safety and education when these things are special in Thedas? Why get upset that children are seperated from home when these things happen outside the Circle, too? There are laws that should prevent abuse and a system to control the templars. Just like outside the Circle law enforcement seems to be somewhat lacking, which is to be expected when people are used to rely on hearsay and news that travel by horse.

I'm not entirely convinced that personal freedom would be considered that important in Thedas. I know, it is in our world, but is it even true for Thedas?

Sometimes it's like the Dragon Age lore is written with something entirely else in mind and the games are an inconsistent, sanitized, dumbed down version of what it should have been.

Important enough that the mages are willing to start a war for it, apparently. Important enough that their plight attracts sympathisers. Important enough that mages have been attempting to escape from the Circle for god knows how long. That's the thing about 'personal freedom', it's personal. How much your freedom is worth is entirely up to you.

There's no standard for what the "average Thedosian" thinks, the story introduces many conflicting points of view and asks the player to make decisions based on what that players believes. The writers are very acutely aware that they are writing for a modern audience, they make that pretty clear with the way they insert jokes that reference modern media. If they expect us to put our personal morality away because we're "roleplaying", then that's pretty dense. Yes, you can roleplay a character who doesn't accurately represent you, but you'll always be aware when a decision you make in-game conflicts with what you'd do if you were really faced with this situation.

I'm curious, if the Dragon Age lore is dumbed down from what it "should've" been, then what should it have been? People cite 'Song of Ice and Fire' as an influence, and it may well have been a major one, but it's hardly the only one and being influenced isn't the same as copying. Dragon Age is its own thing, distinct and separate. How can a different franchise by a different person determine what Dragon Age is supposed to be?

[nos_astra]

What it should have been is consistent. They occasionally show how cruel and backwards the world of Thedas is and then quickly backpedal in an attempt not to offend the modern audience.

If you say that I'm a unique and special snowflake in my approach to roleplaying, then I'll accept that and maybe go back to reading books.

Modifié par klarabella, 08 mai 2011 - 10:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Note that while children are separated from their families in other contexts, this is the only time when they're imprisoned because religious dogma says that they're cursed. And I don't think the laws preventing the templars from abusing their charges are very strong; I suspect it depends entirely on the whim of the knight-commander, or his/her observational skills. Since even the Ferelden Circle had a high percentage of suicides...

In short, while other parts of Thedas are bad, the Circle is worse.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The only source we have about suicides in the Circle is Anders, and iirc he comapres the suicide rate, to the deathrate to demons, which actually just speaks of the trainning the mages recieves.
The mages aren't "imprisoned" merely because the religions says so. They are also sent to the Circles because of the threat they pose if not trained properly.
I alos think that the Templar abuse issue has been blown way out of proportions. No where in the game, is it stated that the Templar abuse is a widespread problem in the Circles. Of course there are some Templars who are rotten, but there are laws against such behavior. Why else would Alrik not want Ser Bardel to tell Meredith?

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only source we have about suicides in the Circle is Anders, and iirc he comapres the suicide rate, to the deathrate to demons, which actually just speaks of the trainning the mages recieves.
The mages aren't "imprisoned" merely because the religions says so. They are also sent to the Circles because of the threat they pose if not trained properly.
I alos think that the Templar abuse issue has been blown way out of proportions. No where in the game, is it stated that the Templar abuse is a widespread problem in the Circles. Of course there are some Templars who are rotten, but there are laws against such behavior. Why else would Alrik not want Ser Bardel to tell Meredith?

Well appearently enough is proportional enough that every single circle went into revolt after kirkwall. And we see corruption the fereldan circle as well . And Greagoir was a decent KC compared to Meredith. But as it stand the system is to open to abuse as every crime a templar commits can be brushed of with: "its the makers will"

[EmperorSahlertz]

I doubt all the Circles even wanted to rebel in the first place. It is all just a chain of events which has gone off.
And no, all abuse of Templars can't be brushed off. There is a reason they fear the Seekers.

[nos_astra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Note that while children are separated from their families in other contexts, this is the only time when they're imprisoned because religious dogma says that they're cursed.

It's not just a religious dogma, they are an actual threat.

And they are living in a gilded cage, very comfortable, maybe even priviledged compared to where they came from. Maybe not so different from how someone like Cailan Theirin or Sebastian Vael grew up as a child, detached from their parents, raised by servants, restricted by protocol.

Xilizhra wrote...
And I don't think the laws preventing the templars from abusing their charges are very strong; I suspect it depends entirely on the whim of the knight-commander, or his/her observational skills. Since even the Ferelden Circle had a high percentage of suicides...

If the law forbids abuse, then abuse is forbidden. If the Chantry has seekers whose job is to control the templars, then you can't claim the templars are free to do as they wish. And of course, it depends on the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, but that's how things work in Thedas. Law enforcement outside in a pre-modern world is not the most effective, I imagine.

In Kirkwall and Denerim there is a city guard (but even Sgt. Kylon or Guard-Captain Aveline have trouble), in the countryside you have no one to defend your right, you must pledge your cause to the court of a freeholder, arl or bann and then hope that people will believe what you say.

Can't say anything about the suicide rate at the Fereldan Circle, but I somehow doubt it's due to widespread rape and abuse that all mage have to suffer through, except Bethany, Anders and Wynne.

Modifié par klarabella, 08 mai 2011 - 01:25 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only source we have about suicides in the Circle is Anders, and iirc he comapres the suicide rate, to the deathrate to demons, which actually just speaks of the trainning the mages recieves.

How does it speak volumes if mages are killing themselves because of the dictatorship they are forced to endure?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The mages aren't "imprisoned" merely because the religions says so. They are also sent to the Circles because of the threat they pose if not trained properly.

Educating mages is what the Circles of Magi should be about, but we get the point clear time and again that Andrastians see mages as cursed. Bethany even says that her Andrastian beliefs dictate that mages should be imprisoned when Hawke sides with the mages, but that she's come to realize that the Maker wouldn't want mages locked up simply for being mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I alos think that the Templar abuse issue has been blown way out of proportions. No where in the game, is it stated that the Templar abuse is a widespread problem in the Circles. Of course there are some Templars who are rotten, but there are laws against such behavior. Why else would Alrik not want Ser Bardel to tell Meredith?

No one has blown it out of proportion, people have addressed the abuse that's transpired. If it seems significant to you, maybe that should tell you something about how monstrous life can be in the Circle of Magi. This point is made clear when a victim like Fiona (in The Calling) saw her life in the Circle as no better than her life under an abusive Orlesian noble.

[DoggyDaddyX]

I don't particularly like the options at the end because both sides are has been said before...crazy bonkers. That said, there is a point to performing the right of annulment with the Templars that could be used as justification to prevent the armies of the Divine from marching on the city and possibly killing everyone. Elthina pretty much says as much that the Divine isn't out to kill innocents, but if she feels like she has to restore order she will do whatever is necessary to accomplish that end.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt all the Circles even wanted to rebel in the first place. It is all just a chain of events which has gone off.
And no, all abuse of Templars can't be brushed off. There is a reason they fear the Seekers.

If there was a Circle that didn't want to rebel, it could've chosen not to.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The only source we have about suicides in the Circle is Anders, and iirc he comapres the suicide rate, to the deathrate to demons, which actually just speaks of the trainning the mages recieves.

How does it speak volumes if mages are killing themselves because of the dictatorship they are forced to endure

No, it speaks volumes about what Anders wants you to think. It's up to you how to interpret this information.

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote..
Oh bolluxs.  Cullen outright states
that the only reason that Bethany is being taken alive AND you aren't
being killed/imprisoned for harboring he is because the the Viscount's
influence.  That's right from the damned GAME.

Try it yourself and this time go throught ALL the dialog trees. 
If you pick the diplomatic response, Cullen specifically says that it's
the viscount's influence that is keeping her and you alive.

Ok this time I just played this scene and reloaded to see all dialogue options from Diplomatic, Sarcastic and Agressive and Cullen doesn't mention this at all. He only says that because she has cooperated the others will be spared punishment for harboring an apostate. He never mentioned anything to do with the Viscounts influence. I didn't hear anything at all to do with this in the game.

Then You didn't listen becuase he does say it.  The Viscount interferes for you in the case of Bethany.

-Polaris

Edit:  It's possible Cullen mentions it either before the dialog options, or very briefly as the scene closes, but I KNOW I am not imagining it.  Cullen does refer to the Viscount at least once.  I think you missed it (and don't rely on You-Tube).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 08 mai 2011 - 02:30 .

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Note that while children are separated from their families in other contexts, this is the only time when they're imprisoned because religious dogma says that they're cursed.

It's not just a religious dogma, they are an actual threat.

And they are living in a gilded cage, very comfortable, maybe even priviledged compared to where they came from. Maybe not so different from how someone like Cailan Theirin or Sebastian Vael grew up as a child, detached from their parents, raised by servants, restricted by protocol.

Considering mages wield tremendous power, maybe that means they should train them properly, as opposed to forcing them to endure a dictatorship under a religious organization that sees them as cursed? No one here is arguing against regulation - law and order - but against the issues that caused a continential mage rebellion in the first place.

Also, I'm not certain how "comfortable" living in a dictatorship is when, in the Gallows, we hear mages screaming, a mage asks Hawke not to steal anything or else the proprieter will get lashed, the protagonist discovers that mages have been made tranquil illegally, Hawke hears about mages getting raped by templars, and the protagonist knows that mages have to endure a lifetime of this toxic enviornment. This is hardly the same enviornment as what Alistair or Sebastian had to endure in the Chantry, and I don't see why you think otherwise.

klarabella wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And I don't think the laws preventing the templars from abusing their charges are very strong; I suspect it depends entirely on the whim of the knight-commander, or his/her observational skills. Since even the Ferelden Circle had a high percentage of suicides...

If the law forbids abuse, then abuse is forbidden. If the Chantry has seekers whose job is to control the templars, then you can't claim the templars are free to do as they wish. And of course, it depends on the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, but that's how things work in Thedas. Law enforcement outside in a pre-modern world is not the most effective, I imagine.

There's a reason the Circles in Ferelden and Kirkwall are so different, and I think it has to do with the way that things are conducted by the Knight-Commander. Cullen's behavior caused enough concern to warrant Greagoir to transfer him away from his charges, while nothing is done about Alrik pushing for all mages to be made tranquil and continuing to order mages made tranquil. We see what this leads to when Kerras openly threatens Thrask and Hawke can save a woman from Meredith's death squad because she fed her tortured mage cousin.

You seem to argue that civilians have to argue their cases in court, but the problem is the mages are at the mercy of the templars, which means they don't have the same alternatives as people who don't have to worry about getting made tranquil by their jailors. Alain is getting raped, but the threat of tranquility is what keeps him quiet. It also doesn't seem to be illegal to lash mages if thieves steal items from the store. It's not surprising that this powerless enviornment has lead to mages running away from the Gallows for freedom.

klarabella wrote...

In Kirkwall and Denerim there is a city guard (but even Sgt. Kylon or Guard-Captain Aveline have trouble), in the countryside you have no one to defend your right, you must pledge your cause to the court of a freeholder, arl or bann and then hope that people will believe what you say.

The difference is that the people looking for justice don't have to worry about losing their humanity to a system that seems them as less than human because of how they are born.

klarabella wrote...

Can't say anything about the suicide rate at the Fereldan Circle, but I somehow doubt it's due to widespread rape and abuse that all mage have to suffer through, except Bethany, Anders and Wynne.

Abuse comes in many different forms, like living in an enviornment where you can be made tranquil based on "evidence" that the First Enchanter never has to be provided (which Irving admits to the mage protagonist), or where a runaway mage not wanting to live in a dictatorship anymore and trying to gain freedom can be killed because the templars "claim" he's maleficar, like with Aneirin.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only source we have about suicides in the Circle is Anders, and iirc he comapres the suicide rate, to the deathrate to demons, which actually just speaks of the trainning the mages recieves.

How does it speak volumes if mages are killing themselves because of the dictatorship they are forced to endure?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The mages aren't "imprisoned" merely because the religions says so. They are also sent to the Circles because of the threat they pose if not trained properly.

Educating mages is what the Circles of Magi should be about, but we get the point clear time and again that Andrastians see mages as cursed. Bethany even says that her Andrastian beliefs dictate that mages should be imprisoned when Hawke sides with the mages, but that she's come to realize that the Maker wouldn't want mages locked up simply for being mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I alos think that the Templar abuse issue has been blown way out of proportions. No where in the game, is it stated that the Templar abuse is a widespread problem in the Circles. Of course there are some Templars who are rotten, but there are laws against such behavior. Why else would Alrik not want Ser Bardel to tell Meredith?

No one has blown it out of proportion, people have addressed the abuse that's transpired. If it seems significant to you, maybe that should tell you something about how monstrous life can be in the Circle of Magi. This point is made clear when a victim like Fiona (in The Calling) saw her life in the Circle as no better than her life under an abusive Orlesian noble.

It speaks of their trainning, because apparently suicide rate is higher than the death rate from demons. We don't know anything about what the actual rate is. So all we can deduce from what is said, is that the trainnng works, and that some mages buckle under the pressure.

The Circle is about educating mages. That, and containing the threat, is all it have ever been about.

Alot have made the assumption that all, or most, Templars are abusive monsters who live only to make the lifes of mages miserable. That is something to take issue with, as that is clearly misinformed. Another issue is the widespread belief that all mages hate the Circle, which also a blatant inaccuracy.
Fiona may have disliked the Circle, but many other mages seems to prefer it greatly to their previous lives. Pretty much all the named circle mages of DA:O (Uldred being the exception), seemed to prefer the Circle more than any alternative.
Life can be monstrous anywhere, the mages have it no harder than the rest of Thedas, when it comes to the brutality of life.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only source we have about suicides in the Circle is Anders, and iirc he comapres the suicide rate to the deathrate to demons, which actually just speaks of the trainning the mages recieves.

He said "For all the talk of demons, the most common death I saw for a mage was suicide". He doesn't say "The amount of deaths due to suicide was on par with the amount of deaths due to demons."

After reading your post in response to Lob

Don't try to say they committed suicide because they couldn't handle the pressure that demons caused.

Also, what does iirc mean?

The mages aren't "imprisoned" merely because the religions says so. They are also sent to the Circles because of the threat they pose if not trained properly.

It's a cage, if a gilded cage. Pretty, yet confining. --- Zevran Aranai.

I alos think that the Templar abuse issue has been blown way out of proportions. No where in the game, is it stated that the Templar abuse is a widespread problem in the Circles. Of course there are some Templars who are rotten, but there are laws against such behavior. Why else would Alrik not want Ser Bardel to tell Meredith?

I would think it does happen in other Circles, but perhaps on a smaller scale that Hellmouth Kirkwall's Circle. Anders tells you that it happened in the Ferelden Circle.

Also, who the hell is Ser Bardel?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt all the Circles even wanted to rebel in the first place. It is all just a chain of events which has gone off.

You mean the chain of events where all the Circles of Magi in the Andrastian nations chose to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars? If the Right of Annulment provoked the response from the Circle mages because the events were so monstrous and horrific against a Circle that did nothing to provoke a genocide, then why do you think not all the Circles wanted to rebel if that's precisely what all of them did? Even the moderate Irving thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from their "shackles" if he asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And no, all abuse of Templars can't be brushed off. There is a reason they fear the Seekers.

You mean the Seekers who ignored the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall for three years? Maybe if Leliana was more focused on the dictator who had taken control of the city-state instead of looking at mages who wanted to be free of Meredith's reign as the problem, it wouldn't have come to a mage rebellion after the Right of Annulment destroyed many lives.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Life can be monstrous anywhere, the mages have it no harder than the rest of Thedas, when it comes to the brutality of life.

That's completely untrue. Civilians never have to worry about losing their humanity to a religious organization that preaches that they are cursed. It's an enviornment that Wynne can address as less than ideal. Wynne never denies The Warden's assertion that it's a prison or an oppressive place, and actually tells him that he can change this.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also, what does iirc mean?

If I recall correctly.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also, who the hell is Ser Bardel?

Ser Bardel is referenced in the letter you can pick up in Tranquility where Ser Alrik threatens his job because Bardel thinks Karl shouldn't be made tranquil, and was blocked from seeing Meredith about it. This is the letter, in case you're curious:

Ser Bardel,

I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!

The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.

The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.

Ser Alrik

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 mai 2011 - 02:21 .

[shedevil3001]

wow mages were content being locked up in the circle away from their family all except uldred really ? coz if i remember rightly didnt jowan hate the circle and want to escape and that keli she thinks her exsistance is a sign of the makes hatered in dao, or did i not hear correctly in game when i was playing, there were many references about mages that hated the circle including in da2, also macha, kerrans sister in act 1 enemies among us quest also tells you about templars abusing mages and going after their families and she's only 1 of the many that tell you about how mages suffer, most fear the circle in kirkwall even alain says its worse than circles anywhere else which is why so many mages turn to blood magic in da2, they are backed into a corner and terrifed, maybe when playing you should keep fingers off escape and listen to dialogue people, just a thought :}

Modifié par shedevil3001, 08 mai 2011 - 02:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Life can be monstrous anywhere, the mages have it no harder than the rest of Thedas, when it comes to the brutality of life.

That's completely untrue. Civilians never have to worry about losing their humanity to a religious organization that preaches that they are cursed. It's an enviornment that Wynne can address as less than ideal. Wynne never denies The Warden's assertion that it's a prison or an oppressive place, and actually tells him that he can change this.

No. They just have to worry about getting food for their family, and bandits on the road to town, taxes to their lord, and diseases. Somehting a mage won't ever,in the entirety of his life in the Circle, have to worry about. Again, the mages have it no worse than the rest of Thedas. Of course they would like to make eachother think that they do. But so is the common practice of the ignorant.

Tranquility or death, which is worse, and what does it matter? If you are dead, you don't care. If you are tranquil, you don't care. At least as a tranquil you can serve some purpose other than fertilizer.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt all the Circles even wanted to rebel in the first place. It is all just a chain of events which has gone off.

You mean the chain of events where all the Circles of Magi in the Andrastian nations chose to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars? If the Right of Annulment provoked the response from the Circle mages because the events were so monstrous and horrific against a Circle that did nothing to provoke a genocide, then why do you think not all the Circles wanted to rebel if that's precisely what all of them did? Even the moderate Irving thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from their "shackles" if he asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And no, all abuse of Templars can't be brushed off. There is a reason they fear the Seekers.

You mean the Seekers who ignored the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall for three years? Maybe if Leliana was more focused on the dictator who had taken control of the city-state instead of looking at mages who wanted to be free of Meredith's reign as the problem, it wouldn't have come to a mage rebellion after the Right of Annulment destroyed many lives.

Why would the Seekers care about Meredith? She never broke any of the rules. She was fulfilling her duty as a Templar. She also had control over a city, yes. But she wasn't abusing her power over mages. Some fo the Templars under her command were, but word about it apparently never reached Meredith, since Templars like Alrik, prevented it.

And I think it is more like only a few of the Circles rose in rebellion at first, forcing the remaining Circles to do so aswell, or face the Templars on their own.