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[IanPolaris]

The mages loved the circles and chantry SO MUCH that when a real opportunity and incentive to break away presented themselves, not one decided to stay.

That by itself says volumes.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
What's so wrong with a Circle system that provides relative safety and
education when these things are special in Thedas? Why get upset that
children are seperated from home when these things happen outside the
Circle, too? There are laws that should prevent abuse and a system to
control the templars. Just like outside the Circle law enforcement seems
to be somewhat lacking, which is to be expected when people are used to
rely on hearsay and news that travel by horse.

My main gripe with the Chantry dominated Circle system is that it's constantly wasting a valuable resource, both economic and military.

Didn't anyone raise an eyebrow that the Chantry allowed only 7 mages to fight at Ostagar? The Chantry only very relunctantly after years of getting its ass kicked by the Qunari, resorted to mages which turned the tide of the war. Had they used them from the very start, who knows how many lives could have been spared.
Furthermore, the economic opportunities are almost limitless and should not be restricted to a few items and enchanting. That economic contribution can only happen if mages are allowed to be socially integrated as much as possible.

The Circles should be under the jurisdiction and control of the state. Not a religious organization that utilizes religious dogma to justify its system, while profitting from it like nobody's business (Lyrium). 

As for Chantry supervision. It proved to be utterly pathetic in DA2. I would buy the lack of technology as a very serious obstacle, if DA2 didn't have a span of 7 years. The Divine, instead of trying to fix the problem by removing one of its sources (Meredith), has the audacity to seriously contemplate an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country as her first reaction. As if she already determined that Kirkwall is no longer a sovereign state and that it's Chantry property because her pet Meredith has taken control of it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

shedevil3001 wrote...

wow mages were content being locked up in the circle away from their family all except uldred really ? coz if i remember rightly didnt jowan hate the circle and want to escape and that keli she thinks her exsistance is a sign of the makes hatered in dao, or did i not hear correctly in game when i was playing, there were many references about mages that hated the circle including in da2, also macha, kerrans sister in act 1 enemies among us quest also tells you about templars abusing mages and going after their families and she's only 1 of the many that tell you about how mages suffer, most fear the circle in kirkwall even alain says its worse than circles anywhere else which is why so many mages turn to blood magic in da2, they are backed into a corner and terrifed, maybe when playing you should keep fingers off escape and listen to dialogue people, just a thought :}

Maybe you should learn gramma, so people can read your posts. Now, if we can be done with the mudslinging we can get on with the discussion.

Of course some mages dislike the Circle. That is unavoidable. Some farmers also dislike thier farms. Should we tear down all farms all over the world because of that? Now I know you are going to argue that "But the farmer can always choose to be something else, or work on another farm", which isn't correct. He could, in theory try to, yes, but that won't be guarenteed. A mage can, most likely, ask for transfer to another Circle, and a mage can never stop being a mage, unless he gets tranquiled.

Templars going after the family of an apostate is not abuse. That is going after their target, the apostate. The Tempalrs are out to find an apostate, which tehy know have family in Kirkwall. Are they to completely ignore that? Or should they go pay the family a visit to see if they have had contact with their apostate child?
If they have harbored and assisted the apostate, it is illegal, and effectively harboring a criminal, which is why they get punished. Again, that is not abuse, that is simply how things work in Thedas.
I never claimed some Templars didn't abuse the mages. I claimed that people are blowing the issue way out of proportions.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz, Templars are not meant to hold worldly power. Cullen addresses this, as well as Thrask if you talk to him repeatedly in the Gallows in Act 3.

The Seekers should've done something about it. It's their fault. Hell, Leliana should've done something about it, as she was the left hand of the Divine.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would the Seekers care about Meredith? She never broke any of the rules. She was fulfilling her duty as a Templar. She also had control over a city, yes. But she wasn't abusing her power over mages. Some fo the Templars under her command were, but word about it apparently never reached Meredith, since Templars like Alrik, prevented it.

Let's assume that she didn't break any rules (while in reality, she very much did). The people hate her and are helping mages for the first time in Thedas' history and the nobility hate her. And at the end, even her own Templars start to rebel.

That's more than enough reason to remove her for incompetence. But the Seekers are useless and would rather hear stories than do their job.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 02:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would the Seekers care about Meredith? She never broke any of the rules. She was fulfilling her duty as a Templar. She also had control over a city, yes. But she wasn't abusing her power over mages. Some fo the Templars under her command were, but word about it apparently never reached Meredith, since Templars like Alrik, prevented it.

Let's assume that she didn't break any rules (while in reality, she very much did). The people hate her and are helping mages for the first time in Thedas' history and the nobility hate her. And at the end, even her own Templars start to rebel.

That's more than enough reason to remove her for incompetence.

We know Rivain has already done that and I would be surprised if it hasn't happened, or happens, in other places too (during the current timeline).

[shedevil3001]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

shedevil3001 wrote...

wow mages were content being locked up in the circle away from their family all except uldred really ? coz if i remember rightly didnt jowan hate the circle and want to escape and that keli she thinks her exsistance is a sign of the makes hatered in dao, or did i not hear correctly in game when i was playing, there were many references about mages that hated the circle including in da2, also macha, kerrans sister in act 1 enemies among us quest also tells you about templars abusing mages and going after their families and she's only 1 of the many that tell you about how mages suffer, most fear the circle in kirkwall even alain says its worse than circles anywhere else which is why so many mages turn to blood magic in da2, they are backed into a corner and terrifed, maybe when playing you should keep fingers off escape and listen to dialogue people, just a thought :}

Maybe you should learn gramma, so people can read your posts. Now, if we can be done with the mudslinging we can get on with the discussion.

Of course some mages dislike the Circle. That is unavoidable. Some farmers also dislike thier farms. Should we tear down all farms all over the world because of that? Now I know you are going to argue that "But the farmer can always choose to be something else, or work on another farm", which isn't correct. He could, in theory try to, yes, but that won't be guarenteed. A mage can, most likely, ask for transfer to another Circle, and a mage can never stop being a mage, unless he gets tranquiled.

Templars going after the family of an apostate is not abuse. That is going after their target, the apostate. The Tempalrs are out to find an apostate, which tehy know have family in Kirkwall. Are they to completely ignore that? Or should they go pay the family a visit to see if they have had contact with their apostate child?
If they have harbored and assisted the apostate, it is illegal, and effectively harboring a criminal, which is why they get punished. Again, that is not abuse, that is simply how things work in Thedas.
I never claimed some Templars didn't abuse the mages. I claimed that people are blowing the issue way out of proportions.

i'm not arguing or trying to offend all i meant is there is 2 sides to this game of which neither is without fault, so there isnt a right or wrong in game it's about personal preference. Thats what i was trying to say just not very well put, and please leave my gramma out of this i'm not very good with gramma but at least im trying, anyway back to the templar/mage thing, there are abuses from both templars and mages, but with mages they cant do anything back without been made tranquil or killed outright where as the templars many of them get away with things, purely because of the power they have in kirkwall.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would the Seekers care about Meredith? She never broke any of the rules. She was fulfilling her duty as a Templar. She also had control over a city, yes. But she wasn't abusing her power over mages. Some fo the Templars under her command were, but word about it apparently never reached Meredith, since Templars like Alrik, prevented it.

Let's assume that she didn't break any rules (while in reality, she very much did). The people hate her and are helping mages for the first time in Thedas' history and the nobility hate her. And at the end, even her own Templars start to rebel.

That's more than enough reason to remove her for incompetence.

We know Rivain has already done that and I would be surprised if it hasn't happened, or happens, in other places too (during the current timeline).

In Andrastrian Thedas I mean.

And I doubt it ever happened on the same scale as Kirkwall. Several Templars talk about this.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And none of that has anything to do with what I mentioned. 

I respectfully disagree. The harmful enviornment of the Gallows is the reason why mages keep running from it, and it's the crux of the situation you mentioned: mages being outside of the Gallows, and templars being unable to prevent this. I'd agree it's not the whole issue - I'm certain that Meredith's power play also played a role, and having templars occupy the Viscount's Keep demonstrated the reign of the de facto dictator, but the templars couldn't keep some mages in the Gallows because of the way some templars acted towards the mages, and the overall enviornment that was both mentally and physically harmful to them.

Do you honestly think mages would have been fighting templars in the streets if they were tasked with keeping the mages safe, rather than aiming to kill them with swords of mercy?

And I respectfully disagree.  The reason mages are escaping from the Gallows is completely irrelevent to the concept of their ability to escape.

But whatever.  You have your agenda.  And you spew it extremely consistently. 

IanPolaris wrote...

The mages loved the circles and chantry SO MUCH that when a real opportunity and incentive to break away presented themselves, not one decided to stay.

That by itself says volumes.

-Polaris

And did every mage in every Circle - or even the majority of the mages in each Circle - want that?

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How does it speak volumes if mages are killing themselves because of the dictatorship they are forced to endure?

Because the only person who brings that up is Anders, who openly confessed that he hates the templars and the Chantry, which makes any information that he gives you subjective.

The question is whether he's telling the truth or simply spreading propaganda to help his cause?

Sure, abuse of mages is widespread in the Kirkwall Circle, no doubt about it. But if suicide was so common, wouldn't other mages also bring it up?

LobselVith8 wrote...



Educating mages is what the Circles of Magi should be about, but we get the point clear time and again that Andrastians see mages as cursed. Bethany even says that her Andrastian beliefs dictate that mages should be imprisoned when Hawke sides with the mages, but that she's come to realize that the Maker wouldn't want mages locked up simply for being mages.

It is what the Circle is about. And mages can be considered cursed since they're in danger of falling pray to demons. While that doesn't give anyone the right to abuse mages or kill them out of hand, it also doesn't mean they're not a potential danger to others.
As for what the Maker would want; you cannot prove that the Maker even exists. So using him as an argument isn't going to help either side in this matter.

LobselVith8 wrote...



No one has blown it out of proportion, people have addressed the abuse that's transpired. If it seems significant to you, maybe that should tell you something about how monstrous life can be in the Circle of Magi. This point is made clear when a victim like Fiona (in The Calling) saw her life in the Circle as no better than her life under an abusive Orlesian noble.

Life can be monstrous outside the Circle as well. People in Thedas are under constant threat from bandits, darkspawn, abominations, wars and even their own nobles when these decide to abuse their power and position. In Orlais, a chevalier can abuse a common man or woman as easily as a templar can abuse a Circle mage, except in this case the chevalier is acting within his "right" as a noble and won't answer to some Seeker for it.
It's a system that is deeply flawed and unjust, but the sad truth is that nobody has ever proposed a better alternative. Not the Chantry, not the mages and certainly not Anders himself.
Simply abolishing the Circles and the templars isn't the answer, since Tevinter showed what can happen once mages are free to do whatever they want.
 If your powers allow you to do more than a non mage can achieve in a lifetime, why would you bother trying to build a normal life when you can simply force others to serve you?

As long as there is one Danarius or Taronhe for every Bethany or Alain, people need the templars and an organization like the Circle. That doesn't mean such organizations should be free to abuse their charges however. 

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would the Seekers care about Meredith? She never broke any of the rules. She was fulfilling her duty as a Templar. She also had control over a city, yes. But she wasn't abusing her power over mages. Some fo the Templars under her command were, but word about it apparently never reached Meredith, since Templars like Alrik, prevented it.

Let's assume that she didn't break any rules (while in reality, she very much did). The people hate her and are helping mages for the first time in Thedas' history and the nobility hate her. And at the end, even her own Templars start to rebel.

That's more than enough reason to remove her for incompetence. But the Seekers are useless and would rather hear stories than do their job.

"There's power in stories." -- Varric

I can understand Cassandra maybe not knowing about the whole fiasco since we don't know when she became a Seeker or what she did prior to the whole thing, but Leliana had absolutely no excuse for not bringing the banhammer down on Meredith.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

But whatever.  You have your agenda.  And you spew it extremely consistently.

Really?  And the same doesn't apply to you?  And here I was just starting to think you were one of the more civil pro-templar posters.  =/

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
What's so wrong with a Circle system that provides relative safety and
education when these things are special in Thedas? Why get upset that
children are seperated from home when these things happen outside the
Circle, too? There are laws that should prevent abuse and a system to
control the templars. Just like outside the Circle law enforcement seems
to be somewhat lacking, which is to be expected when people are used to
rely on hearsay and news that travel by horse.

My main gripe with the Chantry dominated Circle system is that it's constantly wasting a valuable resource, both economic and military.

Didn't anyone raise an eyebrow that the Chantry allowed only 7 mages to fight at Ostagar? The Chantry only very relunctantly after years of getting its ass kicked by the Qunari, resorted to mages which turned the tide of the war. Had they used them from the very start, who knows how many lives could have been spared.
Furthermore, the economic opportunities are almost limitless and should not be restricted to a few items and enchanting. That economic contribution can only happen if mages are allowed to be socially integrated as much as possible.

The Circles should be under the jurisdiction and control of the state. Not a religious organization that utilizes religious dogma to justify its system, while profitting from it like nobody's business (Lyrium). 

As for Chantry supervision. It proved to be utterly pathetic in DA2. I would buy the lack of technology as a very serious obstacle, if DA2 didn't have a span of 7 years. The Divine, instead of trying to fix the problem by removing one of its sources (Meredith), has the audacity to seriously contemplate an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country as her first reaction. As if she already determined that Kirkwall is no longer a sovereign state and that it's Chantry property because her pet Meredith has taken control of it.

And you can guarentee that more than seven mages in Ostagar would have made the battle a victory? What if it had still been lost, even if they Circle had sent all its mages? Then Ferelden would have to face the Blight with no mages at all. Also, we don't know how many battle mages are within the Ferelden Circle, for all we know those seven were half of what they got. So I raised no eyebrow. I trust in Greagoir knew what he was doing.

The circles should absolutely not be governed by the state. Only under an internatinal institution can the mages ever hope for different treatment. It need not be the Chantry, but then another international institution. If ever the Circles are nationalized, disaster will follow.
Tkae for instance, Orlais. I believe it has five Circle within its borders. These Circles would now be under the command of the Orlesians. Then take Ferelden. Ferelden merely have one Circle withins its borders (and a mage prison in an unknown location). Now we know Orlais have a grudge against Ferelden. We also know that the only reason all the Circles of Orlais isn't brought to bear when they go to war, is becasue they don't answer to the authority of Orlais, but the Chantry. It would simply be like giving nukes to cavemen.

The Divine was in her full rights to declare an Exalted March on Krikwall (and only Kirkwall, not the Free Marches aswell). The Circle within had shown particularly rebellious, and the situation was quickly spinning out of control. Removing Meredith, one of the few keeping the mages down, could have achieved a lot of different outcomes. The mages could have stopped being rebellious and just went on their merry way in the Circle (an outcome I find highly unlikely), or they could have seen it as a removeval of the last obstacle before their vaunted freedom. Remember that the Kirkwall Circle had always been highly rebellious, even long before Meredith's promotion.

On a side note: Kirkwall being a city state, with its own authority, does not prevent an Exalted March being called on it. It happened to the Dales, it happened to the Qunari. It can happen to Kirkwall aswell.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respectfully disagree. The harmful enviornment of the Gallows is the reason why mages keep running from it, and it's the crux of the situation you mentioned: mages being outside of the Gallows, and templars being unable to prevent this. I'd agree it's not the whole issue - I'm certain that Meredith's power play also played a role, and having templars occupy the Viscount's Keep demonstrated the reign of the de facto dictator, but the templars couldn't keep some mages in the Gallows because of the way some templars acted towards the mages, and the overall enviornment that was both mentally and physically harmful to them.

Do you honestly think mages would have been fighting templars in the streets if they were tasked with keeping the mages safe, rather than aiming to kill them with swords of mercy?

And I respectfully disagree.  The reason mages are escaping from the Gallows is completely irrelevent to the concept of their ability to escape.

But whatever.  You have your agenda.  And you spew it extremely consistently. 

I disagree. It has to do with the number of escaping mages from a harmful enviornment and why they are escaping in the first place, which explains the premise behind them escaping at all.

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The mages loved the circles and chantry SO MUCH that when a real opportunity and incentive to break away presented themselves, not one decided to stay.

That by itself says volumes.

-Polaris

And did every mage in every Circle - or even the majority of the mages in each Circle - want that?

Freedom from a dictatorship is a powerful motivator, particularly when your people can be killed in an act of genocide for an act they didn't participate in.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 mai 2011 - 03:03 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz, Templars are not meant to hold worldly power. Cullen addresses this, as well as Thrask if you talk to him repeatedly in the Gallows in Act 3.

The Seekers should've done something about it. It's their fault. Hell, Leliana should've done something about it, as she was the left hand of the Divine.

Not being meant to, and not being allowed is sadly not always the same. A lot of Templars have the rank of Ser, something that a Seeker should take care of, if indeed a Templar wasn't allowed to hold worldly power

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would the Seekers care about Meredith? She never broke any of the rules. She was fulfilling her duty as a Templar. She also had control over a city, yes. But she wasn't abusing her power over mages. Some fo the Templars under her command were, but word about it apparently never reached Meredith, since Templars like Alrik, prevented it.

Let's assume that she didn't break any rules (while in reality, she very much did). The people hate her and are helping mages for the first time in Thedas' history and the nobility hate her. And at the end, even her own Templars start to rebel.

That's more than enough reason to remove her for incompetence. But the Seekers are useless and would rather hear stories than do their job.

Which rule did she break? And don't go state one of Alrik's or Kerras' stunts. Name some of the rules Meredith broke, in her treatment of the mages.

The nobility hates her for removing their power. They wouldn't have given two squirts of ****** about her if she hadn't done that. Don't delude yourself from that. Their hatred can reflect into the population, which can create a general dislike for her. Of course, since many Templars in Kirkwall have become more ruthless lately, killing apostates' families, and so on, that doesn't help Meredith reputation. But taht is not Meredith's deeds. The people help the mages because of the Templars, not Meredith.
The Templars "rebelled" in the end, becasue Meredith had clearly gone bonkers.

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

But whatever.  You have your agenda.  And you spew it extremely consistently.

Really?  And the same doesn't apply to you?  And here I was just starting to think you were one of the more civil pro-templar posters.  =/

You know, you may be right, Rifneno.  That could be considered rude, and if so, I apologize to Lob.

That said, if you look back on what started that sequence with Lob and I, you'll see that it had nothing to do with Meredith, abuse of mages, or anything else.  It was a comment regarding mages escaping, not the reasons for it.  The poster I initially responded to said the Templars could have just locked the mages in the Gallows during the end game.  I mentioned that since there was no indication that mages could be kept in the Gallows throughout the game, there's no reason to expect it to be different now.

That has nothing to do with reasons.  If someone says "we should just keep minors from drinking", and I respond that "all efforts to do so in the past have been only of limited success", that has nothing to do with WHY minors drink.

There was no reason for Lob to bring up Templar abuses in response to that discussion.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respectfully disagree. The harmful enviornment of the Gallows is the reason why mages keep running from it, and it's the crux of the situation you mentioned: mages being outside of the Gallows, and templars being unable to prevent this. I'd agree it's not the whole issue - I'm certain that Meredith's power play also played a role, and having templars occupy the Viscount's Keep demonstrated the reign of the de facto dictator, but the templars couldn't keep some mages in the Gallows because of the way some templars acted towards the mages, and the overall enviornment that was both mentally and physically harmful to them.

Do you honestly think mages would have been fighting templars in the streets if they were tasked with keeping the mages safe, rather than aiming to kill them with swords of mercy?

And I respectfully disagree.  The reason mages are escaping from the Gallows is completely irrelevent to the concept of their ability to escape.

But whatever.  You have your agenda.  And you spew it extremely consistently. 

I disagree. It has to do with the number of escaping mages from a harmful enviornment and why they are escaping in the first place, which explains the premise behind them escaping at all.

Whatever.  Let's just drop it.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The mages loved the circles and chantry SO MUCH that when a real opportunity and incentive to break away presented themselves, not one decided to stay.

That by itself says volumes.

-Polaris

And did every mage in every Circle - or even the majority of the mages in each Circle - want that?

Freedom from a dictatorship is a powerful motivator, particularly when your people can be killed in an act of genocide for an act they didn't participate in.

Doesn't address my question - did every mage, or even the majority of them, in each Circle, actually want to revolt?

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And you can guarentee that more than seven mages in Ostagar would have made the battle a victory? What if it had still been lost, even if they Circle had sent all its mages? Then Ferelden would have to face the Blight with no mages at all. Also, we don't know how many battle mages are within the Ferelden Circle, for all we know those seven were half of what they got. So I raised no eyebrow. I trust in Greagoir knew what he was doing.

What kind of reasoning is that?
That maybe fielding more mages won't work, so we'll just send 7?

Of course I can't guarantee that it would have been a victory. But I can guarantee that they would have increased Ferelden's chances. As for how many mages can fight. At least 16 more, as per the Battle of Denerim. The cutscene showed even more.

It's not Gregoir, it's the Revered Mother. The hag who didnt' want Uldred to use magic in lieu of the beacon.

The circles should absolutely not be governed by the state. Only under an internatinal institution can the mages ever hope for different treatment. It need not be the Chantry, but then another international institution. If ever the Circles are nationalized, disaster will follow.
Tkae for instance, Orlais. I believe it has five Circle within its borders. These Circles would now be under the command of the Orlesians. Then take Ferelden. Ferelden merely have one Circle withins its borders (and a mage prison in an unknown location). Now we know Orlais have a grudge against Ferelden. We also know that the only reason all the Circles of Orlais isn't brought to bear when they go to war, is becasue they don't answer to the authority of Orlais, but the Chantry. It would simply be like giving nukes to cavemen.

It's giving resources to states. Why is it that states can't change their treatment? Especially if they rely on them that much, unlike the Chantry? 

International peace and non-proliferation of magic is not something I care about. Magic is a weapon (and not as powerful as you seem to think it is) and it should be used.  If Orlais proves stronger than Ferelden thanks to its mages, then kudos for them. And that reliance on mages would be a solid basis on which mages can ask for more rights, and they can't be ignored. And if you are worried about over-usage of magic, then international treaties could be established without needing the Chantry.  

However, barring hypotheticals and looking at reality, the fact is that Orlais would have a hard time letting go of its imperialist tool (the Chantry), while Ferelden is more likely to throw it in the garbage of history and use its mages. So for the short future, I see Ferelden holding the advantage.

The Divine was in her full rights to declare an Exalted March on Krikwall (and only Kirkwall, not the Free Marches aswell). The Circle within had shown particularly rebellious, and the situation was quickly spinning out of control. Removing Meredith, one of the few keeping the mages down, could have achieved a lot of different outcomes. The mages could have stopped being rebellious and just went on their merry way in the Circle (an outcome I find highly unlikely), or they could have seen it as a removeval of the last obstacle before their vaunted freedom. Remember that the Kirkwall Circle had always been highly rebellious, even long before Meredith's promotion.

She had no right to declare an Exalted March on an Andrastrian sovereign state with its legitimate government being controlled and then outright blocked by her puppet.

The people hate Meredith, how do you think they are going to see a Chantry invasion? It's utter stupidity and counter-productive against Chantry interests. That would have been a very dangerous precedent.

As for removing Meredith. No one is saying that there wouldn't be a new knight commander. Or one who isn't strict himself. But with some brains with it and moderation. Can it blow up in their face? Possible, but unlikely. One of the main pilars of Templar power is popular support. With a KC that would allow Kirkwall to have its own government and improve PRs, mages would be very much weakened and any attempt at uprising would be delt with easily.

But instead, she opts to keep the idiot in power.

On a side note: Kirkwall being a city state, with its own authority, does not prevent an Exalted March being called on it. It happened to the Dales, it happened to the Qunari. It can happen to Kirkwall aswell.

Yes it does, because Kirkwall is an Andrastrian state.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 03:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The nobility hates her for removing their power. They wouldn't have given two squirts of ****** about her if she hadn't done that. Don't delude yourself from that. Their hatred can reflect into the population, which can create a general dislike for her. Of course, since many Templars in Kirkwall have become more ruthless lately, killing apostates' families, and so on, that doesn't help Meredith reputation. But taht is not Meredith's deeds. The people help the mages because of the Templars, not Meredith.
The Templars "rebelled" in the end, becasue Meredith had clearly gone bonkers.

And that's what I am saying. That Meredith in her blind power-mongering, turned almost all of Kirkwall against her.
That's why she has to be removed for gross incompetence.

I didn't say they hated her just for her excessive treatment of mages, even though it has been hitned at. but that's besides my point.

And now every Templar misdeed is not due to poor Meredith? Every bad Templar, and there are apparently many if they managed to ****** everyone off, has become a ser Alrik? Then remove her for incompetence for not being able to keep her Templars in line.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

How does it speak volumes if mages are killing themselves because of the dictatorship they are forced to endure? [/quote]

Because the only person who brings that up is Anders, who openly confessed that he hates the templars and the Chantry, which makes any information that he gives you subjective. [/quote]

So we should assume all the information that Anders says is biased when he's the former Circle mage?

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

The question is whether he's telling the truth or simply spreading propaganda to help his cause? [/quote]

Or he's explaining why he's part of the mage underground in the first place by explaining how bad it is for mages living in the Chantry controlled Circles.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

Sure, abuse of mages is widespread in the Kirkwall Circle, no doubt about it. But if suicide was so common, wouldn't other mages also bring it up? [/quote]

Anders is the only former Circle mage companion we have. Merrill is one of the Dalish, after all, and Hawke (and Bethany) weren't raised in the Circle of Magi.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Educating mages is what the Circles of Magi should be about, but we get the point clear time and again that Andrastians see mages as cursed. Bethany even says that her Andrastian beliefs dictate that mages should be imprisoned when Hawke sides with the mages, but that she's come to realize that the Maker wouldn't want mages locked up simply for being mages. [/quote]

It is what the Circle is about. And mages can be considered cursed since they're in danger of falling pray to demons. While that doesn't give anyone the right to abuse mages or kill them out of hand, it also doesn't mean they're not a potential danger to others. [/quote]

I disagree. Mages are raised in an oppressive place (as even Wynne admits it is when The Warden from the Circle of Magi addresses this) where they are governed by templars who belong to a religious organization preaching that mages are cursed. Mages were imprisoned in the Andrastian nations because, centuries ago, mages protested their lack of rights in Orlais, and narrowly avoided an Exalted March because the templars convinced Divine Ambrosia II out of the idea. Mages should be properly trained, not imprisoned for the rest of their lives in a dictatorship.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

As for what the Maker would want; you cannot prove that the Maker even exists. So using him as an argument isn't going to help either side in this matter. [/quote]

I'm addressing what Bethany said and her reasons for changing her mind - Bethany thinks that the Maker doesn't want mages to be imprisoned when she talks to Hawke in the pro-mage ending because of the years she spent in the Circle of Kirkwall.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No one has blown it out of proportion, people have addressed the abuse that's transpired. If it seems significant to you, maybe that should tell you something about how monstrous life can be in the Circle of Magi. This point is made clear when a victim like Fiona (in The Calling) saw her life in the Circle as no better than her life under an abusive Orlesian noble.[/quote]

Life can be monstrous outside the Circle as well. People in Thedas are under constant threat from bandits, darkspawn, abominations, wars and even their own nobles when these decide to abuse their power and position. In Orlais, a chevalier can abuse a common man or woman as easily as a templar can abuse a Circle mage, except in this case the chevalier is acting within his "right" as a noble and won't answer to some Seeker for it. [/quote]

David Gaider addressed that chevaliers don't have a legal right to rape women.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

It's a system that is deeply flawed and unjust, but the sad truth is that nobody has ever proposed a better alternative. Not the Chantry, not the mages and certainly not Anders himself.
Simply abolishing the Circles and the templars isn't the answer, since Tevinter showed what can happen once mages are free to do whatever they want. [/quote]

The Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain showed what happened once mages are free. The Imperium shows that Magisters have no problem ensaving both non-mages and mages as well.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

If your powers allow you to do more than a non mage can achieve in a lifetime, why would you bother trying to build a normal life when you can simply force others to serve you? [/quote]

Let's ask the Warden mages who are free from the Chantry and the templars, but dedicate their lives to protecting the people of Thedas against the darkspawn.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

As long as there is one Danarius or Taronhe for every Bethany or Alain, people need the templars and an organization like the Circle. That doesn't mean such organizations should be free to abuse their charges however. [/quote]

Mages don't need to be oppressed in a dictatorship under the rule of an organization that sees them as cursed. We've seen where that leads to: a rebellion across the continent, and the world on the brink of war.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz, Templars are not meant to hold worldly power. Cullen addresses this, as well as Thrask if you talk to him repeatedly in the Gallows in Act 3.

The Seekers should've done something about it. It's their fault. Hell, Leliana should've done something about it, as she was the left hand of the Divine.

Not being meant to, and not being allowed is sadly not always the same. A lot of Templars have the rank of Ser, something that a Seeker should take care of, if indeed a Templar wasn't allowed to hold worldly power

Ser is also a title to show respect, not just a title of nobility.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 mai 2011 - 03:47 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I disagree. It has to do with the number of escaping mages from a harmful enviornment and why they are escaping in the first place, which explains the premise behind them escaping at all.

Whatever.  Let's just drop it.

Fair enough. And you don't need to apologize to me, we don't agree on the issue, which is fine.

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Freedom from a dictatorship is a powerful motivator, particularly when your people can be killed in an act of genocide for an act they didn't participate in.

Doesn't address my question - did every mage, or even the majority of them, in each Circle, actually want to revolt?

We're never provided an answer, but we know Wynne said there was a close majority siding with the Libertarians to break free from the Chantry when she was heading to Cumberland, and she needed Ines to sway mages to vote against this. And Meredith mentions that the proclamation made in favor of the Magi boon has an effect on the Circle mages in other kingdoms.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
We're never provided an answer, but we know Wynne said there was a close majority siding with the Libertarians to break free from the Chantry when she was heading to Cumberland, and she needed Ines to sway mages to vote against this. And Meredith mentions that the proclamation made in favor of the Magi boon has an effect on the Circle mages in other kingdoms.

But the Resolutionists, the ones who want a violent uprising, are a minority apparently even amongst Libertarians.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
We're never provided an answer, but we know Wynne said there was a close majority siding with the Libertarians to break free from the Chantry when she was heading to Cumberland, and she needed Ines to sway mages to vote against this. And Meredith mentions that the proclamation made in favor of the Magi boon has an effect on the Circle mages in other kingdoms.

But the Resolutionists, the ones who want a violent uprising, are a minority apparently even amongst Libertarians.

I'd like to see a video of Meredith flipping out over the mage boon if possible

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And you can guarentee that more than seven mages in Ostagar would have made the battle a victory? What if it had still been lost, even if they Circle had sent all its mages? Then Ferelden would have to face the Blight with no mages at all. Also, we don't know how many battle mages are within the Ferelden Circle, for all we know those seven were half of what they got. So I raised no eyebrow. I trust in Greagoir knew what he was doing.

What kind of reasoning is that?
That maybe fielding more mages won't work, so we'll just send 7?

Of course I can't guarantee that it would have been a victory. But I can guarantee that they would have increased Ferelden's chances. As for how many mages can fight. At least 16 more, as per the Battle of Denerim. The cutscene showed even more.

It's not Gregoir, it's the Revered Mother. The hag who didnt' want Uldred to use magic in lieu of the beacon..

Would is increase their chances? The chances of Abominations running through the ranks of the Fereldan army, on the day before the battle, could seem to detract from Ferelden's chances of succes. You do not commit your entire force in a single battle, unless you absolutely have to. The fighting against the Darkspawn had gone well, people was actually doubting it was even a Blight, what reason could tehre be, to endanger the army with the presence of more mages? In hindsight, perhaps more mages could have turned the fighting in the favor of Ferelden, but it could also have made it all, so very much worse.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Divine was in her full rights to declare an Exalted March on Krikwall (and only Kirkwall, not the Free Marches aswell). The Circle within had shown particularly rebellious, and the situation was quickly spinning out of control. Removing Meredith, one of the few keeping the mages down, could have achieved a lot of different outcomes. The mages could have stopped being rebellious and just went on their merry way in the Circle (an outcome I find highly unlikely), or they could have seen it as a removeval of the last obstacle before their vaunted freedom. Remember that the Kirkwall Circle had always been highly rebellious, even long before Meredith's promotion.

She had no right to declare an Exalted March on an Andrastrian sovereign state with its legitimate government being controlled and then outright blocked by her puppet.

The people hate Meredith, how do you think they are going to see a Chantry invasion? It's utter stupidity and counter-productive against Chantry interests. That would have been a very dangerous precedent.

As for removing Meredith. No one is saying that there wouldn't be a new knight commander. Or one who isn't strict himself. But with some brains with it and moderation. Can it blow up in their face? Possible, but unlikely. One of the main pilars of Templar power is popular support. With a KC that would allow Kirkwall to have its own government and improve PRs, mages would be very much weakened and any attempt at uprising would be delt with easily.

But instead, she opts to keep the idiot in power.

She is the Dinvine. She has every right you can imagine, to call for an Exalted March on whoever the hell she wants to. The target being Andrastians makes no difference. Tevinter was Andrastians aswell, when the Exalted Marches was called on them. Albeit heretics, but nevertheless Andrastians. The faith of the target of an Exalted March, matters nothing. The only factor for an Exalted March, is that they are called against something that poses a threat towards the Chantry's power.

There won't be a people to hate her, after the Exalted March is done.

The main pillar of Templar power is not popular support. At all. The main pillar of their power is Chantry support. Something the Templars did not have in Kirkwall. Nor did the Chantry oppose them, but it didn't help them either.