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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Master Shiori wrote..

Those mages cannot live a normal life due to the taint within them. They cannot sire children, are plagued by nightmares and doomed to die fighting darkspawn. Being a Warden is a calling, not a profession. They make great sacrifices to become Wardens, and I highly doubt all of them are happy to do so. Bethany sure didn't look thrilled.

Actually they can have kids, but the chance is just diminished greatly. The OGB is proof enough
that a Warden can have a kid, so long as the other person isn't a Warden.

Also, Wardens are free to live relatively normal, albeit somewhat ****ed up, lives. Talk to Alistair where he and the other Wardens had a drinking game with Grigor, Gregoir, whatever his name was (we never find out). Duncan came in laughing.

Duncan was good friends with Maric. Just because you're a Grey Warden doesn't mean you're not allowed to have a life outside of it. It just means you have to devote yourself to a cause that is slowly killing you.

Oghren sees his little nugget every now and then, writes him letters, and checks up on Felsi. Kristoff was married to Aura. Keenan was married too. They can have lives.

So can the mages. I don't see anything preventing the mages from drinking together, or making friends with outsiders. Their contact with outsiders will however be limited, and the mages can't keep their children.

[TEWR]

you really think that Thedas' citizens would become friends with a mage? Most believe the Chantry dogma of how magic is a sin upon a person's soul, and people look down upon them. The chances of a mage finding a person who isn't going to try to kill him/her in Thedas is low.

Their lives are restricted to eating, sleeping, training, and socializing with other mages and what Templars actually treat them like people and not something less than dirt. That's it.

If they have a child, it's taken away. They don't even get to find out what happened to the child. That sound fair? I can somewhat understand the child being taken away because it might cause one of the parents to make a deal with a spirit if something horrific occurred, but to deny the parent the right to know if he/she is still alive? With a loving family? In the Chantry's care? For all we know the Chantry killed the child for fear of it being another mage, all in the name of granting the child "mercy".

Confining people to one place is never healthy. It begins to eat away at the mind. Grey Wardens can freely travel. Barely any mages get that luxury.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Confining people to one place is never healthy. It begins to eat away at the mind. Grey Wardens can freely travel. Barely any mages get that luxury.

I am curious about what would happen to a claustrophobic mage.

[HTTP 404]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Confining people to one place is never healthy. It begins to eat away at the mind. Grey Wardens can freely travel. Barely any mages get that luxury.

I am curious about what would happen to a claustrophobic mage.

spell of agoraphobia

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Master Shiori wrote..

Those mages cannot live a normal life due to the taint within them. They cannot sire children, are plagued by nightmares and doomed to die fighting darkspawn. Being a Warden is a calling, not a profession. They make great sacrifices to become Wardens, and I highly doubt all of them are happy to do so. Bethany sure didn't look thrilled.

Actually they can have kids, but the chance is just diminished greatly. The OGB is proof enough
that a Warden can have a kid, so long as the other person isn't a Warden.

Also, Wardens are free to live relatively normal, albeit somewhat ****ed up, lives. Talk to Alistair where he and the other Wardens had a drinking game with Grigor, Gregoir, whatever his name was (we never find out). Duncan came in laughing.

Duncan was good friends with Maric. Just because you're a Grey Warden doesn't mean you're not allowed to have a life outside of it. It just means you have to devote yourself to a cause that is slowly killing you.

Oghren sees his little nugget every now and then, writes him letters, and checks up on Felsi. Kristoff was married to Aura. Keenan was married too. They can have lives.

So can the mages. I don't see anything preventing the mages from drinking together, or making friends with outsiders. Their contact with outsiders will however be limited, and the mages can't keep their children.

Emperor your logic once again fails you. Taking a child away from ttheir parents can cause as much damage as leaving a child with the mage.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually they can have kids, but the chance is just diminished greatly. The OGB is proof enough
that a Warden can have a kid, so long as the other person isn't a Warden.

That was a particular kind of bloodmagic ritual for a particular purpose. It's not clear it can be replicated, or that the process will work out to have a healthy baby without the archdemon vessel portion.

Oghren sees his little nugget every now and then, writes him letters, and checks up on Felsi. Kristoff was married to Aura. Keenan was married too. They can have lives.

They die young, but arguably not moreso than most of Thedas would (e.g. 30 years from Joining, if you do it at age 20... that brings you up to 50; not a bad life for a medieval). They have very dangerous work; Deep Roads, fighting darkspawn, etc. But does that make it more dangerous work than being a mercenary? Yes, but majorly so?

Unless you're noble or merchant, it's not entirely clear that being a Warden is a bad lot. Particularly if you're an elf or mage.

Modifié par In Exile, 09 mai 2011 - 02:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

This is me sort of speculating, but what I've seen in Origins seems to show that the environment of fear the Circle has is in fact beneficial to demons.

The Sloth Demon had 2 parts of the Fade that he is feeding off of, a Templar's Nightmare and a Mage's nightmare. The Templar's nightmare showed a Templar's greatest fear, which is out of control "gun" happy mages who kill everything including each other (the sad irony is that DA2 mages are almost like this). The mage's greatest fear is Templars on fire, who are of course immune to fire spells and assassin priests.

And both fears were used by the sloth Demon to trap his victims and feed off it. So is an environment of fear really the efficient way of going about things? That might explain why every generation, an annulment happens somewhere in Andrastrian Thedas.

I personally see both Mages and Templars as victims of fear. Fear is irrational and clouds judgement. Mages should be handled with caution in lieu of fear which, whether deliberately or not, has taken over the system.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And both fears were used by the sloth Demon to trap his victims and feed off it. So is an environment of fear really the efficient way of going about things? That might explain why every generation, an annulment happens somewhere in Andrastrian Thedas.

Keeping in mind that actual annulment seems to have a much lower threshold in Thedas than we saw in Kirkwall. One thing that gets lost in the shuffle is how comparably lenient Meredith is in invoking the Rite compared to the first codex entry of it we see.

I personally see both Mages and Templars as victims of fear. Fear is irrational and clouds judgement. Mages should be handled with caution in lieu of fear which, whether deliberately or not, has taken over the system.

That's because the Circle exists as a response to Tevinter. It's as much a political tool as anything. And that's your problem. The explicit vision of the Circle the chantry gives it at odds with the reasons for having a Circle in the first place, and the fear of what mages.

Andraste waged war against the Imperium, and the Chantry trapped mages to prevent another one elsewhere.

If the Circle ran like it was supposed to (with, IMO, greatly increased freedoms for mages) I think you'd find incidents and problems go down a lot.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is me sort of speculating, but what I've seen in Origins seems to show that the environment of fear the Circle has is in fact beneficial to demons.

The Sloth Demon had 2 parts of the Fade that he is feeding off of, a Templar's Nightmare and a Mage's nightmare. The Templar's nightmare showed a Templar's greatest fear, which is out of control "gun" happy mages who kill everything including each other (the sad irony is that DA2 mages are almost like this). The mage's greatest fear is Templars on fire, who are of course immune to fire spells and assassin priests.

And both fears were used by the sloth Demon to trap his victims and feed off it. So is an environment of fear really the efficient way of going about things? That might explain why every generation, an annulment happens somewhere in Andrastrian Thedas.

I personally see both Mages and Templars as victims of fear. Fear is irrational and clouds judgement. Mages should be handled with caution in lieu of fear which, whether deliberately or not, has taken over the system.

The Templar's nightmare wasn't full of crazy mages. The Templar's Nightmare was full of abominations and demons on the loose (and an Ogre). And the Burning Tower was a nightmare of a Templar aswell. Fearing what would happen to the tower with the revolt probably. Again, this nightmare isn't full of crazy mages, but of demons and undead. Darkspawn invasion, is self-explainatory, and the nightmare of a Templar.
The only nightmare to include crazy mages and priests, are actually the nightmare of the mage. This nightmare oddly lack any Templars though.

And fear isn't irrational by definition. It is the natural reaction to a percieved threat. If the threat is real, the fear you feel is not irrational.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 mai 2011 - 04:25 .

[OldMan91]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And both fears were used by the sloth Demon to trap his victims and feed off it. So is an environment of fear really the efficient way of going about things? That might explain why every generation, an annulment happens somewhere in Andrastrian Thedas.

Keeping in mind that actual annulment seems to have a much lower threshold in Thedas than we saw in Kirkwall. One thing that gets lost in the shuffle is how comparably lenient Meredith is in invoking the Rite compared to the first codex entry of it we see.

I personally see both Mages and Templars as victims of fear. Fear is irrational and clouds judgement. Mages should be handled with caution in lieu of fear which, whether deliberately or not, has taken over the system.

That's because the Circle exists as a response to Tevinter. It's as much a political tool as anything. And that's your problem. The explicit vision of the Circle the chantry gives it at odds with the reasons for having a Circle in the first place, and the fear of what mages.

Andraste waged war against the Imperium, and the Chantry trapped mages to prevent another one elsewhere.

If the Circle ran like it was supposed to (with, IMO, greatly increased freedoms for mages) I think you'd find incidents and problems go down a lot.

As long as a religious, dogmatic culture prevails in the Circles, as evidenced by them having their own little chantry and demonization of magic as being a "curse" or something bad generally, the Mage problem will continue to exist. The attitudes towards mages must change, and to do so you need to forbid the Chantry from getting involved in the affairs of states. As it is, it is a transnational organization which is allowed to dictate policy regarding mages and magical law. Governments are afraid to cut them off due to their pervasive influence in society, having a great deal of support from common folk. 

What Thedas needs, above all else, is reason.

[Beerfish]

OldMan91 wrote...


As long as a religious, dogmatic culture prevails in the Circles, as evidenced by them having their own little chantry and demonization of magic as being a "curse" or something bad generally, the Mage problem will continue to exist. The attitudes towards mages must change, and to do so you need to forbid the Chantry from getting involved in the affairs of states. As it is, it is a transnational organization which is allowed to dictate policy regarding mages and magical law. Governments are afraid to cut them off due to their pervasive influence in society, having a great deal of support from common folk. 

What Thedas needs, above all else, is reason.

The part I bolded is key, because the attitude towards mages could swing either way.  A relaxation of the mage circle rules, or abolishing it as some would hope and more freedom for mages but it can also swing the other way with mages being feared more than they have been in the past and being pariahs or even being hunted or killed at the 1st sign of magic.

There have been enough cases of this kind of fear in our past history.  Less rain fall than normal the last few years and crops fail?  It must be the mages fault kill em!  Someone spotted blue toad?  Mages! 

I agree with your point about the need for reason but the biggest hurdle is determining what is 'reasonable' from all sides.

[Rifneno]

Beerfish wrote...

The part I bolded is key, because the attitude towards mages could swing either way.  A relaxation of the mage circle rules, or abolishing it as some would hope and more freedom for mages but it can also swing the other way with mages being feared more than they have been in the past and being pariahs or even being hunted or killed at the 1st sign of magic.

There have been enough cases of this kind of fear in our past history.  Less rain fall than normal the last few years and crops fail?  It must be the mages fault kill em!  Someone spotted blue toad?  Mages! 

I agree with your point about the need for reason but the biggest hurdle is determining what is 'reasonable' from all sides.

It's possible, but I doubt it would go that way.  Magic isn't real in our world, so ignorance and paranoia were allowed to run rampant.  In Thedas there's a long history of it and it's well documented what magic can and cannot do.  People would be much harder pressed to blame a mage for something they simply cannot do.  It would also be nearly impossible for false accusations of being a mage to stick and ruin someone.  We aren't told or shown how but it's clear the templars have some method of easily finding out whether someone is a mage.  We never see someone in the Circle claiming the templars are wrong, that they're not a mage.  And they let the magistrate's son go since he wasn't a mage even though he came in complaining of demons whispering to him.  Also, the witch hunts in real life were based mostly on the assumption that magic is all bad.  In Thedas a great many people owe their lives to magical healing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm willing to bet, that a lot more people have died to magic, than have been healed by it in Thedas. Otherwise, the current opinion of magic would never have taken root.
It is stated that the peasants of Thedas, are quick to put blame of all the wrongs happening on mage children, not yet sent to the tower. Wynne tells about this I believe.

[Beerfish]

Rifneno wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

The part I bolded is key, because the attitude towards mages could swing either way.  A relaxation of the mage circle rules, or abolishing it as some would hope and more freedom for mages but it can also swing the other way with mages being feared more than they have been in the past and being pariahs or even being hunted or killed at the 1st sign of magic.

There have been enough cases of this kind of fear in our past history.  Less rain fall than normal the last few years and crops fail?  It must be the mages fault kill em!  Someone spotted blue toad?  Mages! 

I agree with your point about the need for reason but the biggest hurdle is determining what is 'reasonable' from all sides.

It's possible, but I doubt it would go that way.  Magic isn't real in our world, so ignorance and paranoia were allowed to run rampant.  In Thedas there's a long history of it and it's well documented what magic can and cannot do.  People would be much harder pressed to blame a mage for something they simply cannot do.  It would also be nearly impossible for false accusations of being a mage to stick and ruin someone.  We aren't told or shown how but it's clear the templars have some method of easily finding out whether someone is a mage.  We never see someone in the Circle claiming the templars are wrong, that they're not a mage.  And they let the magistrate's son go since he wasn't a mage even though he came in complaining of demons whispering to him.  Also, the witch hunts in real life were based mostly on the assumption that magic is all bad.  In Thedas a great many people owe their lives to magical healing.

I disagree, (as you would expect).  Very early on, before DA even came out they stated that magic was not a free for all in this land and mages were viewed with some degree of fear and suspicion.  There is zero evidence to suggest people would not react the way I suggested other than it happened in our past.  In many cases what you do not understand you fear.

As for how average joe views magic or mages, as in this world it will all depend on who they are brought up, real life brushes with magic and propganda by higher ups that want to infuence the masses.  You state that mages would be accepted due to the healing issues.  I would guess that anyone that had any connection with Redcliffe would indicate that any benefits of healing are far outweighed by the dangers of magic.

People that have benefitted from magic my look kindly on mages those that haven't will be very wary.

In anycase the end of DA2 has torn the existing system to shreds.  There are a number of ways things can play out and I'm sure BioWare has in mind what is going to happen next but there is just as much of a likliehood that any given mage will be eyed with fear and or suspicions as they will be welcomed with open arms.  Like it or not.

Modifié par Beerfish, 09 mai 2011 - 07:23 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually they can have kids, but the chance is just diminished greatly. The OGB is proof enough
that a Warden can have a kid, so long as the other person isn't a Warden.

That was a particular kind of bloodmagic ritual for a particular purpose. It's not clear it can be replicated, or that the process will work out to have a healthy baby without the archdemon vessel portion.

True, but Morrigan can get pregnant by The Warden even without the dark ritual taking place. Gaider has stated that it's only impossible for two Grey Wardens to procreate together when he discussed the possibility of Alistair and the female Cousland having any progeny as King and Queen of Ferelden.

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oghren sees his little nugget every now and then, writes him letters, and checks up on Felsi. Kristoff was married to Aura. Keenan was married too. They can have lives.

They die young, but arguably not moreso than most of Thedas would (e.g. 30 years from Joining, if you do it at age 20... that brings you up to 50; not a bad life for a medieval). They have very dangerous work; Deep Roads, fighting darkspawn, etc. But does that make it more dangerous work than being a mercenary? Yes, but majorly so?

Unless you're noble or merchant, it's not entirely clear that being a Warden is a bad lot. Particularly if you're an elf or mage.

It's certainly an issue of opinion, but I'd agree about the mages. The freedom that being a Grey Warden brings is, to me, better than living under the rule of the Chantry and the templars in the Circle.

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And both fears were used by the sloth Demon to trap his victims and feed off it. So is an environment of fear really the efficient way of going about things? That might explain why every generation, an annulment happens somewhere in Andrastrian Thedas.

Keeping in mind that actual annulment seems to have a much lower threshold in Thedas than we saw in Kirkwall. One thing that gets lost in the shuffle is how comparably lenient Meredith is in invoking the Rite compared to the first codex entry of it we see. 

Why do you think she's lenient? It's made clear that "Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable. This Rite of Annulment has been performed 17 times in the last 700 years." Basically, it's an issue of the Circle of Magi, not the multitude of apostates encountered outside of the Gallows who have no known affiliation with the Kirkwall Circle or the actions of one apostate against the Kirkwall Chantry. Meredith ordered the deaths of the mages because of an apostate's killing of Grand Cleric Elthina, which hardly makes her lenient.

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally see both Mages and Templars as victims of fear. Fear is irrational and clouds judgement. Mages should be handled with caution in lieu of fear which, whether deliberately or not, has taken over the system.

That's because the Circle exists as a response to Tevinter.

Actually, the Circles exist because Emperor Drakon I created them as a member of a cult of Andraste. According to the History of the Chantry, Chantry 4: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself." In fact, the History of the Circle codex reveals that the mages in present day Thedas are imprisoned because of a nonviolent protest held by Orlesian mages in a cathedral.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 mai 2011 - 07:41 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No, the Circles of Magi were created because of Emperor Drakon's religious views as a member of a cult of Andraste (History of the Chantry, Chapter 4), and mages were imprisoned because they protested their lack of rights during the reign of Divine Ambrosia II (History of the Circle).

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No, the Circles of Magi were created because of Emperor Drakon's religious views as a member of a cult of Andraste (History of the Chantry, Chapter 4), and mages were imprisoned because they protested their lack of rights during the reign of Divine Ambrosia II (History of the Circle).

"Regardless of the reason, a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage. Should the demon get the upper hand, the result is an unholy union known as an abomination. Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the circle of magi."
Do I have to explain to you how wrong you were, or can you actually read it yourself?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No, the Circles of Magi were created because of Emperor Drakon's religious views as a member of a cult of Andraste (History of the Chantry, Chapter 4), and mages were imprisoned because they protested their lack of rights during the reign of Divine Ambrosia II (History of the Circle).

"Regardless of the reason, a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage. Should the demon get the upper hand, the result is an unholy union known as an abomination. Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the circle of magi."
Do I have to explain to you how wrong you were, or can you actually read it yourself?

You mean your argument is essentially the heresay section of the Abomination codex? That entire entry begins with "It is known" and is heresay while we have two Chantry scholar written codex entries that actually tell us why the Circle of Magi was created and why mages are imprisoned in modern day Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No, the Circles of Magi were created because of Emperor Drakon's religious views as a member of a cult of Andraste (History of the Chantry, Chapter 4), and mages were imprisoned because they protested their lack of rights during the reign of Divine Ambrosia II (History of the Circle).

"Regardless of the reason, a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage. Should the demon get the upper hand, the result is an unholy union known as an abomination. Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the circle of magi."
Do I have to explain to you how wrong you were, or can you actually read it yourself?

You mean your argument is essentially the heresay section of the Abomination codex? That entire entry begins with "It is known" and is heresay while we have two Chantry scholar written codex entries that actually tell us why the Circle of Magi was created and why mages are imprisoned in modern day Thedas.

"It is known" does not equate hearsay. Quite the contrary really. "It is believed" would be hearsay. Moving on.
The two entries you got aren't from contemporary scholars. It is from scholars who are alive in the Dragon Age, and are wrting on the sources they have found. Furthermore, they are both merely excerpts of a full book, which further devaluates your source. And even more to devaluate it. It is doesn't even state their protests as the reason they were "exiled".
So you were wrong, and still are.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 mai 2011 - 08:23 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you really think that Thedas' citizens would become friends with a mage? Most believe the Chantry dogma of how magic is a sin upon a person's soul, and people look down upon them. The chances of a mage finding a person who isn't going to try to kill him/her in Thedas is low.

Their lives are restricted to eating, sleeping, training, and socializing with other mages and what Templars actually treat them like people and not something less than dirt. That's it.

If they have a child, it's taken away. They don't even get to find out what happened to the child. That sound fair? I can somewhat understand the child being taken away because it might cause one of the parents to make a deal with a spirit if something horrific occurred, but to deny the parent the right to know if he/she is still alive? With a loving family? In the Chantry's care? For all we know the Chantry killed the child for fear of it being another mage, all in the name of granting the child "mercy".

Confining people to one place is never healthy. It begins to eat away at the mind. Grey Wardens can freely travel. Barely any mages get that luxury.

Children born to mages automatically belong to the Chantry.  I think what generally happens is that they're reared to be Chantry personnel, whether lay persons or eventual priests or templars.  Also, I figure that any child that turns out to be a mage probably just ends up right back in the Circle.  

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Confining people to one place is never healthy. It begins to eat away at the mind. Grey Wardens can freely travel. Barely any mages get that luxury.

I am curious about what would happen to a claustrophobic mage.

Anders was put into solitary confinement for a year.  And he tells you in Awakening that he's claustrophobic.  

So I think we have a pretty good idea of one of the things that can happen...Why yes, I maintain that it's the injustice of the Circles that led to the disaster in Kirkwall and the subsequent war.  You can't treat people this inhumanely for century upon century and then honestly be surprised when one of them finally snaps.

Assuming of course you believe what he tells you to be the truth--and I do, since all his experiences actually make his contempt for the Circle plenty understandable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Confining people to one place is never healthy. It begins to eat away at the mind. Grey Wardens can freely travel. Barely any mages get that luxury.

I am curious about what would happen to a claustrophobic mage.

Anders was put into solitary confinement for a year.  And he tells you in Awakening that he's claustrophobic.  

So I think we have a pretty good idea of one of the things that can happen...Why yes, I maintain that it's the injustice of the Circles that led to the disaster in Kirkwall and the subsequent war.  You can't treat people this inhumanely for century upon century and then honestly be surprised when one of them finally snaps.

Assuming of course you believe what he tells you to be the truth--and I do, since all his experiences actually make his contempt for the Circle plenty understandable.

Just becasue his contempt is udnerstandable, does not equate him telling the truth. I can fully understand his point of view. But I can also tell him for the liar he is. First of all, the anti-possession potion is a blatant lie. No matter his reasoning for why he lies. Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean your argument is essentially the heresay section of the Abomination codex? That entire entry begins with "It is known" and is heresay while we have two Chantry scholar written codex entries that actually tell us why the Circle of Magi was created and why mages are imprisoned in modern day Thedas.

"It is known" does not equate hearsay. Quite the contrary really. "It is believed" would be hearsay. Moving on.

You're providing an entry that isn't written by a scholar and deals with what's said among the people. No matter how many ways you want to address this, it's still not part of the two historical accounts that we have for the Circle of Magi and only what's "known" among the people, who also "know" the Maker is real because that's what they believe. We have two entries that describe the inception of the Circle of Magi and the reason behind imprisoning mages, and there is no reference to abominations in either entry.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The two entries you got aren't from contemporary scholars. It is from scholars who are alive in the Dragon Age, and are wrting on the sources they have found.

They are providing information about historical accounts that address the Circle of Magi, and neither account has any reference to abominations as the reason for Emperor Drakon I creating the Circle or for the imprisonment of the mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Furthermore, they are both merely excerpts of a full book, which further devaluates your source. And even more to devaluate it. It is doesn't even state their protests as the reason they were "exiled".
So you were wrong, and still are.

I'm not wrong when I'm addressing that two scholarly sources address the Circle of Magi's history, and only the heresay section you provided alludes to abominations as the root cause for the Circle's creation when there's no mention made in either Chantry scholar written codex about the Circle of Magi.

[Xilizhra]

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Actually, it's not. The only reason Jowan was intended to be Tranquilized was his never being Harrowed; note that Tranquility was never even considered for the mage Warden. There's no hint of the rite being used on Harrowed mages in Origins, and in Kirkwall, the laws are being just plain ignored.