4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm willing to bet, that a lot more people have died to magic, than have been healed by it in Thedas. Otherwise, the current opinion of magic would never have taken root.
It is stated that the peasants of Thedas, are quick to put blame of all the wrongs happening on mage children, not yet sent to the tower. Wynne tells about this I believe.

Referring to the bolded portion, Wynne was referring to one possible danger that mages outside the Circle faced, and while it's certainly believable that that would happen, I don't think her statement should be taken to mean that it's such an evitable outcome that mages outside the Circle are in perpetual danger of being stoned the minute something goes wrong, such that living within the world is too dangerous for mages.  But even so, that attitude speaks to the general ignorance of the populace, and people's innate tendency--especially as mobs--to look for scape goats, not necessarily to inherent dangers of magic.  People don't have to have empirical evidence of magic being more likely to cause harm than good for this to happen.  All they ever need is to find something to pin the blame on.  

There are dozens of stories within real world history about the village healer being revered by their community right up until something bad happens, and then suddenly all that good work gets forgotten.  Again, all that's required is the need for something to blame. 

The solution isn't to create Circles for mages' protection--indeed that rationale strikes me as just putting a positive spin on the reasons why mages should be locked away, since it'd be more palatable to paint things as being in a mages' best interest, rather than admit the truth--but to educate the populace as to the realities of magic.  And you don't do that by preaching that magic is a curse by the Maker.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just becasue his contempt is udnerstandable, does not equate him telling the truth.

Just because you disagree with Anders doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I can fully understand his point of view. But I can also tell him for the liar he is.

When Anders said Karl was waiting for him in the Chantry, he was correct. When he said there were rumors about the "Tranquil Solution" and mages being made tranquil, it turned out he was right. Anders has been loud and clear about his view on the Chantry controlled Circles and the templars, and he's even willing to address Grand Cleric Elthina because he thinks she could be a voice of reason (and he's evidently mistaken when she's willing to turn a blind eye every time Hawke addresses the problems with the Chantry and the templars).

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

First of all, the anti-possession potion is a blatant lie. No matter his reasoning for why he lies.

Killing Anders will certainly seperate Justice and Anders, which his writer Jennifer Hepler said was what he anticipated would happen.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite.

It's illegal to make a Harrowed mage tranquil unless under extraordinary circumstances, and Anders is living proof you can't simply make a Harrowed mage tranquil for offenses, even running away from the Circle Tower seven times.

[Xilizhra]

Hypothesis: Elthina wanted to die. She realized something large and dangerous was in the offing, but like Anders, recognized the mage/templar issue as one that went beyond Kirkwall, and allowed her own death in the hopes that a war right then would bring about more peace later.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No if the abomination threat was so great mages would never be allowed in the chantry's pre-circle. While the circle does indeed exist to limit the amount of abominations it still serves as a way to control the mages and their magic. The threat of abominations is simply used as an excuse

[Deztyn]

Silfren wrote...

Assuming of course you believe what he tells you to be the truth--and I do, since all his experiences actually make his contempt for the Circle plenty understandable.

Anders isn't only Anders by DA2 Justice influences his thoughts and actions. And Justice believed that keeping Ser Pounce-A-Lot was a great injustice committed against felines. Between his possession, his paranoia, the fact that his author admits she was writing him as mentally ill and Gaider saying we shouldn't take everything Anders says as unbiased truth-- I think taking anything Anders says with a grain of salt is a perfectly logical reaction.

*goes back to lurking*

Modifié par Deztyn, 09 mai 2011 - 08:56 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Confining people to one place is never healthy. It begins to eat away at the mind. Grey Wardens can freely travel. Barely any mages get that luxury.

I am curious about what would happen to a claustrophobic mage.

Anders was put into solitary confinement for a year.  And he tells you in Awakening that he's claustrophobic.  

So I think we have a pretty good idea of one of the things that can happen...Why yes, I maintain that it's the injustice of the Circles that led to the disaster in Kirkwall and the subsequent war.  You can't treat people this inhumanely for century upon century and then honestly be surprised when one of them finally snaps.

Assuming of course you believe what he tells you to be the truth--and I do, since all his experiences actually make his contempt for the Circle plenty understandable.

Just becasue his contempt is udnerstandable, does not equate him telling the truth. I can fully understand his point of view. But I can also tell him for the liar he is. First of all, the anti-possession potion is a blatant lie. No matter his reasoning for why he lies. Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Telling one lie hardly means that everything he ever said was a lie.  True, it does raise the question of how much of what he says can be taken for truth, but again, one lie does not automatically mean that everything a person ever said was a fabrication.  Also, Anders makes it plain that his reason for lying was to prevent Hawke from possibly trying to stop him, and also to protect Hawke from being complicit, and I firmly believe that a person's reasons absolutely matter.

Also, Anders saying that making a mage Tranquil after their Harrowing is illegal doesn't mean that he's lying.  There is the option that he is simply mistaken.  It could also be that he takes for granted that "except where that mage has clearly broken a Chantry law that would allow for the punishment" is understood.  It is not at all uncommon for people to make absolutist statements because they assume that the exceptions are obvious.  Kind of like when people say "it's not illegal to drink alcohol," they don't bother to add on the clause "unless you're underage," because they take for granted that some things go without saying.  Anyway, that's a bit of an oversimplification, but I think I made the point well enough.  Anders doesn't have to be lying: he could simply be mistaken in his understanding of when the Rite is applicable, or he could be referring to mages who haven't committed a crime.  It's also possible that Anders just plain has a blind spot when it comes to mages.  This is an entirely human thing to do when you're a member of an oppressed minority.  I find that it speaks far more about the environment that created him than anything else.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 mai 2011 - 09:27 .

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Actually, it's not. The only reason Jowan was intended to be Tranquilized was his never being Harrowed; note that Tranquility was never even considered for the mage Warden. There's no hint of the rite being used on Harrowed mages in Origins, and in Kirkwall, the laws are being just plain ignored.

Jowan's being suspected of blood magic meant that the only option was to Tranquil him, because he hadn't passed his Harrowing, you mean?  I take that to mean that had he been Harrowed, he would have been eligible for execution instead.

I think I need to dig up all the codex entries on the Rite.  Offhand I don't know what the lore states beyond Anders' assertion, but his claim would certainly fit into the above--except, now that it occurs to me, wasn't it said after Jowan's capture in Redcliffe that he would have been executed if he'd been turned over to the Circle?  Of course, by that point, he had more problems than just having dabbled in blood magic...  

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

When Anders said Karl was waiting for him in the Chantry, he was correct. When he said there were rumors about the "Tranquil Solution" and mages being made tranquil, it turned out he was right. Anders has been loud and clear about his view on the Chantry controlled Circles and the templars, and he's even willing to address Grand Cleric Elthina because he thinks she could be a voice of reason (and he's evidently mistaken when she's willing to turn a blind eye every time Hawke addresses the problems with the Chantry and the templars).

This is rather off the topic, but one thing I've always found strange is that Anders didn't question Karl's ability to get out of the Gallows and to the Chantry, and certainly without Templar supervision.  He tells Hawke that "Maker willing, he'll be there, alone."  After all that talk about mages being locked in their cells, etc., why on earth would he think that Karl would just be able to get permission to go to the Chantry, especially after dark?  Just another example of sloppy writing, I suppose.  Would have been far better if he'd thought that Karl had talked the templars into escorting him to the Chantry for prayer or whatever, and planned an ambush.

[Beerfish]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No if the abomination threat was so great mages would never be allowed in the chantry's pre-circle. While the circle does indeed exist to limit the amount of abominations it still serves as a way to control the mages and their magic. The threat of abominations is simply used as an excuse

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Actually, it's not. The only reason Jowan was intended to be Tranquilized was his never being Harrowed; note that Tranquility was never even considered for the mage Warden. There's no hint of the rite being used on Harrowed mages in Origins, and in Kirkwall, the laws are being just plain ignored.

Jowan havn't passed his Harrowing. Therefore it is fully legal to use the Rite on him, even if he has done no wrong. On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order. This punishment was to be put under the Rite of Tranquility. Again, it is legal to use the Rite on a Harrowed mage, as long as it is as punishment.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Both of those cases have abominations resulting from the Chantry controlled Circles - the attempt to free the mages from the templars in Ferelden, and Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate. We know there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Maybe mages should be properly instructed on using their abilities rather than forced to live in a dictatorship under the rule of a religious order that has distain for mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not wrong when I'm addressing that two scholarly sources address the Circle of Magi's history, and only the heresay section you provided alludes to abominations as the root cause for the Circle's creation when there's no mention made in either Chantry scholar written codex about the Circle of Magi.

You are very wrong, when you try and pass those two as stating the reason the Cricles were created. All those two tells us is HOW the Circles were created. Nothing about the reasoning behind it. So you are still wrong.

[Beerfish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Actually, it's not. The only reason Jowan was intended to be Tranquilized was his never being Harrowed; note that Tranquility was never even considered for the mage Warden. There's no hint of the rite being used on Harrowed mages in Origins, and in Kirkwall, the laws are being just plain ignored.

Jowan havn't passed his Harrowing. Therefore it is fully legal to use the Rite on him, even if he has done no wrong. On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order. This punishment was to be put under the Rite of Tranquility. Again, it is legal to use the Rite on a Harrowed mage, as long as it is as punishment.

If the circle that Anders had belonged to followed through with this though instead of having him escape seven times or so and then just bringing him back we could have avoided a big Chantry boom.  Yet another case of seemingly being very lenient on a mage and having it badly backfire.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jowan havn't passed his Harrowing. Therefore it is fully legal to use the Rite on him, even if he has done no wrong.

Which is a severe problem with the Chantry controlled Circles.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order.

Wrong. Ser Alrik - who is making mages tranquil illegally - ordered Karl to be made tranquil. There's no evidence that Karl did anything wrong, and Ser Bardel's letter from Alrik supports that Karl was made tranquil illegally.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

This punishment was to be put under the Rite of Tranquility. Again, it is legal to use the Rite on a Harrowed mage, as long as it is as punishment.

Wrong. There needs to be extraordinary circumstances to make a Harrowed mage tranquil, and Anders is proof of that. Otherwise, he would have been made tranquil after the first escape attempt.

[Xilizhra]

If there was more leniency in the system, we might never have had to worry about it either.

[DKJaigen]

Beerfish wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No if the abomination threat was so great mages would never be allowed in the chantry's pre-circle. While the circle does indeed exist to limit the amount of abominations it still serves as a way to control the mages and their magic. The threat of abominations is simply used as an excuse

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Then the chantry in the past where ****ing stupid. they left their mages right in the chantry right next to the common people. Or their concerns are not legit and the only reason we see so many abominations is for gameplay purposes alone

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Both of those cases have abominations resulting from the Chantry controlled Circles - the attempt to free the mages from the templars in Ferelden, and Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate. We know there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Maybe mages should be properly instructed on using their abilities rather than forced to live in a dictatorship under the rule of a religious order that has distain for mages.

50% of all Dalish keepers we have met, have turned into Abominations. Furthermore the Dalish themselves talk about Keepers turning into abominations, which is evidence that it does happen.
We havn't seen anything about Chasind culture or how many problems they have with Abominations, so there is no use speculating. Perhaps their Abomination problems are the reason they aren't a major threat anymore.
Avvar: same as Chasind.
And I'd say that Rivain clearly have Abomination problems since their own seers willingly let themselves become possessed. Not the best example of an Abomination free nation, with free mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jowan havn't passed his Harrowing. Therefore it is fully legal to use the Rite on him, even if he has done no wrong.

Which is a severe problem with the Chantry controlled Circles.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order.

Wrong. Ser Alrik - who is making mages tranquil illegally - ordered Karl to be made tranquil. There's no evidence that Karl did anything wrong, and Ser Bardel's letter from Alrik supports that Karl was made tranquil illegally.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

This punishment was to be put under the Rite of Tranquility. Again, it is legal to use the Rite on a Harrowed mage, as long as it is as punishment.

Wrong. There needs to be extraordinary circumstances to make a Harrowed mage tranquil, and Anders is proof of that. Otherwise, he would have been made tranquil after the first escape attempt.

Anders says that the Templars discovered Karl and his plans of busting Karl out of there. Or are you saying Anders is a liar?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not wrong when I'm addressing that two scholarly sources address the Circle of Magi's history, and only the heresay section you provided alludes to abominations as the root cause for the Circle's creation when there's no mention made in either Chantry scholar written codex about the Circle of Magi.

You are very wrong, when you try and pass those two as stating the reason the Cricles were created. All those two tells us is HOW the Circles were created. Nothing about the reasoning behind it. So you are still wrong.

Excuse me if the heresay section of the Abomination codex doesn't compel me to agree with you when the two Chantry scholar written codex entries reveal the history behind the Circle of Magi.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No if the abomination threat was so great mages would never be allowed in the chantry's pre-circle. While the circle does indeed exist to limit the amount of abominations it still serves as a way to control the mages and their magic. The threat of abominations is simply used as an excuse

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Then the chantry in the past where ****ing stupid. they left their mages right in the chantry right next to the common people. Or their concerns are not legit and the only reason we see so many abominations is for gameplay purposes alone

All magic back then was completely outlawed. No mage was allowed to cast any spells, other than to light the Eternal Fire in all Chantries, and the occasional dusting. That was how they made sure no abominations or demons were barging in on the sermons.

[Beerfish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Both of those cases have abominations resulting from the Chantry controlled Circles - the attempt to free the mages from the templars in Ferelden, and Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate. We know there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Maybe mages should be properly instructed on using their abilities rather than forced to live in a dictatorship under the rule of a religious order that has distain for mages.

The fereldan circle had a majority of seemingly well adjusted and tolerant if not happy mages.  The first enchanter in both cases was negligent if not bonkers.  A senior mage in the Fereldan circle essentially caused the problem with some of his cronies.  All the cases where this did not happen (as in all the other circles) were chantry controlled.  The excuse of horrible treatment and condtitions does not wash in the fereldan circle.

In the end it is the mages that are becoming abominations and dealing in blood magic, not the chantry and not the templars.  These cases just illustrate what happens when a mage feels ambitious and or not treated well.  Utter chaos and devastation.  And some people feel mages should be allowed to waltz around whever they want because surely it is only the chantry that makes them susceptable to demons. I don't think so.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order.

Wrong. Ser Alrik - who is making mages tranquil illegally - ordered Karl to be made tranquil. There's no evidence that Karl did anything wrong, and Ser Bardel's letter from Alrik supports that Karl was made tranquil illegally.

Anders says that the Templars discovered Karl and his plans of busting Karl out of there. Or are you saying Anders is a liar?

In other words, there's no proof Karl was conspiring against the Circle of Kirkwall or did anything to warrant being made tranquil.

[Silfren]

Deztyn wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Assuming of course you believe what he tells you to be the truth--and I do, since all his experiences actually make his contempt for the Circle plenty understandable.

Anders isn't only Anders by DA2 Justice influences his thoughts and actions. And Justice believed that keeping Ser Pounce-A-Lot was a great injustice committed against felines. Between his possession, his paranoia, the fact that his author admits she was writing him as mentally ill and Gaider saying we shouldn't take everything Anders says as unbiased truth-- I think taking anything Anders says with a grain of salt is a perfectly logical reaction.

*goes back to lurking*

I never thought that Anders was unbiased, just so we're clear.  He's obviously biased, and in a huge bloody way.  But here's the thing.  We see that within all the Andrastian nations, the Chantry's official word is that magic is a curse.  Even when they call it a gift, they still tack on that it's also a curse.  (See Knight Commander Greagoir in the Mage Origin of DA:O), and that locking mages away in Circles is given divine sanction.  And within even a more benign, liberal Circle--supposedly the most liberal and pro-mage of all the Circles, I've read, you have these problems:

• Magic is held to be a curse to the point where some mages actually come to hate their own existence.  See Keili, of the Ferelden Circle, whom you meet in the mage origin and also in Broken Circle.
• Jowan sees the Circle as a prison, and views being Tranquiled with horror, and the Mage Warden can be RP'd to agree. 
• Even Wynne, who takes a more moderate approach and definitely does see the benefits to the Circle, acknowledges it as a prison and concedes that it's not ideal.  She also points out that the Chantry would sooner genocide all mages everywhere than see them free.  Also, she talks about working with Alistair to make life better for mages, as well as trying to encourage the Mage Warden to do their part in making mages' lot improve
• First Enchanter Irving, a moderate like Wynne, who understands the need for templars and stands against Uldred, knowing full well what the danger would be of having no templars around at all, is happy if the Mage Warden requests Circle autonomy as their boon.
• The blood mage in Broken Circle insists that she joined Uldred because of the promised freedom from the Chantry.  Yes, it could be pointed out that she's trying to save her own life, but even so: she insists that her use of blood magic was to give her the power to fight the templars.  She didn't want the death and destruction Uldred brought, but merely wanted to live without the "templars watching, always watching."

And then again, in Kirkwall, of course, you have heaps upon heaps of abuses.  The rape, the torture, the illegal Tranquil-ing.  All of which is made explicit through overheard conversations, screaming, talking directly with NPCs, both mage and templar alike.  It isn't merely filtered to Hawke from Anders alone.

Point being, even with Anders' own obvious bias, we get enough of a picture of the overall scheme of things.  When moderates like Wynne and Irving, in particular, who don't despise the Circle and yet acknowledge its many problems and even are glad to hear of being granted autonomy...well, that speaks volumes, don't you think?

Modifié par Silfren, 09 mai 2011 - 10:01 .

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

If there was more leniency in the system, we might never have had to worry about it either.

you mean like letting Anders escape 7 times and just catching him and bringing him back?  That kind of leniency?

[erilben]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

It's actually Hawke who brings up making a Harrowed mage tranquil is illegal. Also there's a mage that says something like "I heard Ser Alrik ordered to make me tranquil. I passed my Harrowing. He can't do that."