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[Beerfish]

DKJaigen wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No if the abomination threat was so great mages would never be allowed in the chantry's pre-circle. While the circle does indeed exist to limit the amount of abominations it still serves as a way to control the mages and their magic. The threat of abominations is simply used as an excuse

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Then the chantry in the past where ****ing stupid. they left their mages right in the chantry right next to the common people. Or their concerns are not legit and the only reason we see so many abominations is for gameplay purposes alone

Well I don't think anyone would argue that they used abominations way to much in the game if youa re relating gameplay to the things we are talking about, I believe the developers have even admitted as much.  But in game content is what it is and you can't sponge it away just because you wish it wasn't like that.

Hey the Chantry is a lot of things people say it is.  An organization that is not all on the up and up and that likes to control things.  They are not blameless in the grand scheme of things however the thought that they are to blame for ALL of mage bad behaviour is absurd and something that the average person and average rational person would think is silly. 

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not because of the portest that they are sent to Circles. The Circles was created by negotiating with the Mages during the protest. There are several different reasons for mages being sent to Circles. The abomination threat, being the most prevalent of the codex is to be believed.

No if the abomination threat was so great mages would never be allowed in the chantry's pre-circle. While the circle does indeed exist to limit the amount of abominations it still serves as a way to control the mages and their magic. The threat of abominations is simply used as an excuse

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

You'd have a point if the situation in Lake Calenhad was comparable to Kirkwall, but it isn't.  Kirkwall is sitting on top of a veritable Hellmouth, which stacks the deck considerably.  And by itself, you can't really use Uldred's revolt in Ferelden as an example of what to expect unless it can be shown that all the Circles are prone to periodic revolts.  

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Both of those cases have abominations resulting from the Chantry controlled Circles - the attempt to free the mages from the templars in Ferelden, and Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate. We know there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Maybe mages should be properly instructed on using their abilities rather than forced to live in a dictatorship under the rule of a religious order that has distain for mages.

50% of all Dalish keepers we have met, have turned into Abominations.

You'll have to excuse me if the fact that there's not an army of abominations coming out of the Kocari Wilds, the ruins of Sundermount, the Wending Woods, or the border of the kingdom of Rivain (where a semi-colony of Dalish reside) doesn't compel me to agree with you.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Furthermore the Dalish themselves talk about Keepers turning into abominations, which is evidence that it does happen. 

Evidence that the Dalish handle an abomination, instead of the templars?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We havn't seen anything about Chasind culture or how many problems they have with Abominations, so there is no use speculating. Perhaps their Abomination problems are the reason they aren't a major threat anymore.
Avvar: same as Chasind.

The only army of abominations the protagonist has to deal with are the result of the Chantry controlled Circle, and not the free mages living in the non-Andrastian societies.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And I'd say that Rivain clearly have Abomination problems since their own seers willingly let themselves become possessed. Not the best example of an Abomination free nation, with free mages.

The developers have gone on record as saying they see abominations as mages controlled by demons rather than spirits. If there's no army of abominations destroying the kingdom of Rivain or its neighboring societies, it's possible the Rivain seers could be like Wynne - who was merged with a Spirit of Faith, but didn't see herself as an abomination because she retained her humanity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order.

Wrong. Ser Alrik - who is making mages tranquil illegally - ordered Karl to be made tranquil. There's no evidence that Karl did anything wrong, and Ser Bardel's letter from Alrik supports that Karl was made tranquil illegally.

Anders says that the Templars discovered Karl and his plans of busting Karl out of there. Or are you saying Anders is a liar?

In other words, there's no proof Karl was conspiring against the Circle of Kirkwall or did anything to warrant being made tranquil.

You mean other than teh fact that the Templars discovered Karl's plans to escape the Circle, which is illegal, which requires punishment?
Yes, there was proof that Karl was doing something illegal. However, there were doubts wether or not making him tranquil was the right punishment.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Both of those cases have abominations resulting from the Chantry controlled Circles - the attempt to free the mages from the templars in Ferelden, and Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate. We know there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Maybe mages should be properly instructed on using their abilities rather than forced to live in a dictatorship under the rule of a religious order that has distain for mages.

The fereldan circle had a majority of seemingly well adjusted and tolerant if not happy mages. 

It had more than a few mages who were willing to side with Uldred for freedom from the Chantry and the templars. As Wynne reveals, the Circle was going to side with Uldred because he said Loghain would free them from the Chantry, until Wynne revealed what really happened at Ostagar. Even First Enchanter Irving, a moderate, thanks The Warden for asking for the royal boon of giving the Circle of Ferelden its independence.

Beerfish wrote...

The first enchanter in both cases was negligent if not bonkers.  A senior mage in the Fereldan circle essentially caused the problem with some of his cronies. 

The problem was the result of mages being under the dictatorship of the Chantry and its templars.

Beerfish wrote...

All the cases where this did not happen (as in all the other circles) were chantry controlled.  The excuse of horrible treatment and condtitions does not wash in the fereldan circle.

We should ask Aneirin the Healer about his treatment was when the templars stabbed him and left him to die in a pool of his own blood as a fourteen year old child.

Beerfish wrote...

In the end it is the mages that are becoming abominations and dealing in blood magic, not the chantry and not the templars. 

You mean mages fighting to be free from the Chantry and the templars because they would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.

Beerfish wrote...

These cases just illustrate what happens when a mage feels ambitious and or not treated well.  Utter chaos and devastation.  And some people feel mages should be allowed to waltz around whever they want because surely it is only the chantry that makes them susceptable to demons. I don't think so.

You mean like the mages do among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, the kingdom of Rivain, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven that existed for over 900 years?

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Actually, it's not. The only reason Jowan was intended to be Tranquilized was his never being Harrowed; note that Tranquility was never even considered for the mage Warden. There's no hint of the rite being used on Harrowed mages in Origins, and in Kirkwall, the laws are being just plain ignored.

Jowan havn't passed his Harrowing. Therefore it is fully legal to use the Rite on him, even if he has done no wrong. On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order. This punishment was to be put under the Rite of Tranquility. Again, it is legal to use the Rite on a Harrowed mage, as long as it is as punishment.

Not quite.  Jowan was also suspected of being a blood mage, which is why he was considered for Tranquility in the first place, and that poster's whole point was that Tranquility was the option because he hadn't undergone his Harrowing.  Otherwise, I'm fairly certain that the punishment for a blood mage would have been execution.  For that matter, I don't think you can just up and decide to use the Rite against an un-Harrowed mage just because.  It's not fully legal unless there's an actual reason.  I might be mistaken, but I think if a mage hasn't actually done anything wrong, then Tranquility is an option only if a mage requests it in lieu of undergoing the Harrowing.  A templar can't just up and say "Hey, that dude's not Harrowed, let's Tranquil him."

Even if we did know that the templars believed Karl was planning to escape, it does not follow that making him Tranquil was the legal punishment.  As was already pointed out to you, Anders escaped from the Tower seven times.  He is asked by the Warden why they didn't Tranquil him, and his response was "they can't make you Tranquil once you've passed your Harrowing."  Even if you think he's lying, well, if he is, then why wasn't he made Tranquil?  Especially after seven escapes.  Finally, if being made Tranquil was completely legal in Karl's case, then one wonders why Ser Bardel was so uncertain about carrying it out.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders says that the Templars discovered Karl and his plans of busting Karl out of there. Or are you saying Anders is a liar?

In other words, there's no proof Karl was conspiring against the Circle of Kirkwall or did anything to warrant being made tranquil.

You mean other than teh fact that the Templars discovered Karl's plans to escape the Circle, which is illegal, which requires punishment?
Yes, there was proof that Karl was doing something illegal. However, there were doubts wether or not making him tranquil was the right punishment.

Remind me again how many times Anders was made tranquil when he escaped from the Circle of Ferelden seven times? I'm curious, because it seems that it was illegal every time for the templars to make him tranquil simply because he ran away.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Both of those cases have abominations resulting from the Chantry controlled Circles - the attempt to free the mages from the templars in Ferelden, and Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate. We know there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Maybe mages should be properly instructed on using their abilities rather than forced to live in a dictatorship under the rule of a religious order that has distain for mages.

50% of all Dalish keepers we have met, have turned into Abominations.

You'll have to excuse me if the fact that there's not an army of abominations coming out of the Kocari Wilds, the ruins of Sundermount, the Wending Woods, or the border of the kingdom of Rivain (where a semi-colony of Dalish reside) doesn't compel me to agree with you.

I'm not sure that the mighty count of two, can be consdired an army. We meet two Keepers in total, in both games, one of them turns into an Abomination, the other is a despicable blood mage. The Dalish are not the best example of responsible use of magic. At least not yet.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Furthermore the Dalish themselves talk about Keepers turning into abominations, which is evidence that it does happen. 

Evidence that the Dalish handle an abomination, instead of the templars?

Of course they handle it. Stick an Abomination enough times with a sword, and it dies. However, given the importance of the Dalish keepers, perhaps the Dalish should have been smart enough to avoid possession altogether. However, tehy aren't and they are exactly as susceptible to it, as any other mage.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We havn't seen anything about Chasind culture or how many problems they have with Abominations, so there is no use speculating. Perhaps their Abomination problems are the reason they aren't a major threat anymore.
Avvar: same as Chasind.

The only army of abominations the protagonist has to deal with are the result of the Chantry controlled Circle, and not the free mages living in the non-Andrastian societies.

Why do you keep talking about armies?
 It only take one Abomination to cause a disaster.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And I'd say that Rivain clearly have Abomination problems since their own seers willingly let themselves become possessed. Not the best example of an Abomination free nation, with free mages.

The developers have gone on record as saying they see abominations as mages controlled by demons rather than spirits. If there's no army of abominations destroying the kingdom of Rivain or its neighboring societies, it's possible the Rivain seers could be like Wynne - who was merged with a Spirit of Faith, but didn't see herself as an abomination because she retained her humanity.

Indeed. And Anders and justice has shown that a demon is just a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. Just became vengeance, after possessing Anders. Furthermore, the demons can masqerade as beneficial spirits if they would desire so, at least the more powerful could. Trick and decieve the seers into allowing the possession. All we have about Rivain is a single entry, which doesn't clarify wether it is a problem.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders says that the Templars discovered Karl and his plans of busting Karl out of there. Or are you saying Anders is a liar?

In other words, there's no proof Karl was conspiring against the Circle of Kirkwall or did anything to warrant being made tranquil.

You mean other than teh fact that the Templars discovered Karl's plans to escape the Circle, which is illegal, which requires punishment?
Yes, there was proof that Karl was doing something illegal. However, there were doubts wether or not making him tranquil was the right punishment.

Remind me again how many times Anders was made tranquil when he escaped from the Circle of Ferelden seven times? I'm curious, because it seems that it was illegal every time for the templars to make him tranquil simply because he ran away.

Remind me again wether or not the Gallows is a different Circle than the Calenhad Tower. I seem to recall it is, but gee, it is all kinda blurry.
The only reason that Anders wasn't tranquiled is because Irving held his hand over him. The First Enchanter have to authorize all uses of the Rite.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

If the circle that Anders had belonged to followed through with this though instead of having him escape seven times or so and then just bringing him back we could have avoided a big Chantry boom.  Yet another case of seemingly being very lenient on a mage and having it badly backfire.

Gee.  Maybe they might've given some consideration as to why Anders hated living in the Circle so much that he would try to escape again and again and again, no matter how many times he was brought back and no matter what kind of punishment he was subjected to.  A year of solitary confinement would drive anyone insane.

It is the Chantry position that mages are cursed beings, at best unstable or at worst evil, who must be locked away from the world and denied basic freedoms, that led to a mage being willing to commit murder and instigate a war.  If it hadn't been Anders, it would've been someone else.

[Xilizhra]

The only reason that Anders wasn't tranquiled is because Irving held his hand over him. The First Enchanter have to authorize all uses of the Rite.

Except in Kirkwall. Another illegality.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Remind me again how many times Anders was made tranquil when he escaped from the Circle of Ferelden seven times? I'm curious, because it seems that it was illegal every time for the templars to make him tranquil simply because he ran away.

Remind me again wether or not the Gallows is a different Circle than the Calenhad Tower. I seem to recall it is, but gee, it is all kinda blurry.

You mean you have some proof that the Kirkwall Circle legally made Karl tranquil? Feel free to provide it, because it looks like there's no actual proof to dispute the fact that Ser Alrik, who was making mages tranquil illegally, did anything but make Karl tranquil illegally (which Ser Bardel seemed to think when he tried to see Meredith about this Rite).

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only reason that Anders wasn't tranquiled is because Irving held his hand over him. The First Enchanter have to authorize all uses of the Rite.

Wrong. Greagoir signed the Rite against Jowan despite the fact that Irving admits to the mage protagonist that he didn't want Jowan to be made tranquil.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

50% of all Dalish keepers we have met, have turned into Abominations. Furthermore the Dalish themselves talk about Keepers turning into abominations, which is evidence that it does happen.
We havn't seen anything about Chasind culture or how many problems they have with Abominations, so there is no use speculating. Perhaps their Abomination problems are the reason they aren't a major threat anymore.
Avvar: same as Chasind.
And I'd say that Rivain clearly have Abomination problems since their own seers willingly let themselves become possessed. Not the best example of an Abomination free nation, with free mages.

'

Be honest.  That 50% comes from one out of two Dalish, undermining your point.  If the physical numbers were more like 50 out of 100, or 1,000 out of 2,000, sure.  But one out of...two, does not stand as sufficient evidence to prove how susceptible mages are.    Also, the Dalish talking about Keepers turning into abominations only supports Lob's point.  No one has ever denied that mages are at risk of turning into abominations.  The Dalish certainly don't deny it, and readily admit that when it happens, their hunters are forced to hunt and kill their Keeper.  But that's not where it ends.  Are you just deliberately ignoring the rest of the story because to acknowledge it would further undermine your claim?  The Dalish don't have an ingrained fear of mages or magic.  They accept the risk that their Keepers are exposed to, and are prepared to carry out the unpleasant task should the worst occur.  They do not lock away their mages, and there is nothing presented to us, either directly in either DA games, or indirectly through the lore, to suggest that the Dalish are, or have ever been, at considerably increased risk from allowing their mages to walk about freely.

None of the information we have on the Chasind or Rivain suggests that they are overrun with abominations--or corrupt blood mages, for that matter, or have ever been decimated by magic-related rampages.  If that were the case, I think we'd have seen some mention of it, as that would be a rather important point.  Especially in the case of Rivain's hedge mages.  The lore states that these "wise women" allow themselves to become possessed, and yet says nothing about these resultant "abominations" razing villages to the ground.  

Quite likely I think the situation of Rivain simply illustrates that the whole possessed mage = abomination concept is purely Chantry doctrine, and that various cultures don't necessarily agree.  Rivain certainly seems to be an indicator of a people who think that certain kinds of possession are fully benign.  And then of course there's Wynne's situation.  Maybe, just maybe, spirit possession is fundamentally different from demon possession and does not automatically have to mean the mage is an abomination.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only reason that Anders wasn't tranquiled is because Irving held his hand over him. The First Enchanter have to authorize all uses of the Rite.

Except in Kirkwall. Another illegality.

It is so, even in Kirkwall. What Alrik does, goes against both Meredith and Orsino's authority.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Remind me again how many times Anders was made tranquil when he escaped from the Circle of Ferelden seven times? I'm curious, because it seems that it was illegal every time for the templars to make him tranquil simply because he ran away.

Remind me again wether or not the Gallows is a different Circle than the Calenhad Tower. I seem to recall it is, but gee, it is all kinda blurry.

You mean you have some proof that the Kirkwall Circle legally made Karl tranquil? Feel free to provide it, because it looks like there's no actual proof to dispute the fact that Ser Alrik, who was making mages tranquil illegally, did anything but make Karl tranquil illegally (which Ser Bardel seemed to think when he tried to see Meredith about this Rite).

That isn't what I was arguing. I was saying that Karl was discovered doing something illegal. Punishment was in order. Wether or not the use of the Rite was lawful is irrelevant in this case. The matter of fact is that it could have been used legally in this case. Depending on the course of action Orsino would have decided on.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only reason that Anders wasn't tranquiled is because Irving held his hand over him. The First Enchanter have to authorize all uses of the Rite.

Wrong. Greagoir signed the Rite against Jowan despite the fact that Irving admits to the mage protagonist that he didn't want Jowan to be made tranquil.

He says it is out of his hands, because he has already signed the papers. He didn't want Jowan tranquiled, but he knew he had to. That is at least how I remember that conversation.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Eh?  There are abominations on every street corner in the two unstable circle environments we have seen.  Lake Calenhad and then the Kirkwall one. I'd say their concerns are pretty legit from past evidence.

Both of those cases have abominations resulting from the Chantry controlled Circles - the attempt to free the mages from the templars in Ferelden, and Meredith's Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of an apostate. We know there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain. Maybe mages should be properly instructed on using their abilities rather than forced to live in a dictatorship under the rule of a religious order that has distain for mages.

The fereldan circle had a majority of seemingly well adjusted and tolerant if not happy mages.  The first enchanter in both cases was negligent if not bonkers.  A senior mage in the Fereldan circle essentially caused the problem with some of his cronies.  All the cases where this did not happen (as in all the other circles) were chantry controlled.  The excuse of horrible treatment and condtitions does not wash in the fereldan circle.

In the end it is the mages that are becoming abominations and dealing in blood magic, not the chantry and not the templars.  These cases just illustrate what happens when a mage feels ambitious and or not treated well.  Utter chaos and devastation.  And some people feel mages should be allowed to waltz around whever they want because surely it is only the chantry that makes them susceptable to demons. I don't think so.

Er, the Ferelden Circle IS under Chantry control when Uldred's revolt takes place.  All the Circles are.  There is no Circle outside of Tevinter that is not controlled by the Chantry prior to the events of DA2.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If there was more leniency in the system, we might never have had to worry about it either.

you mean like letting Anders escape 7 times and just catching him and bringing him back?  That kind of leniency?

No.  Becoming lenient in the conditions that led to Anders hating the Circle badly enough to want to escape no matter what.

[Silfren]

erilben wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

It's actually Hawke who brings up making a Harrowed mage tranquil is illegal. Also there's a mage that says something like "I heard Ser Alrik ordered to make me tranquil. I passed my Harrowing. He can't do that."

Anders first makes the statement in DA:Awakening, when the Warden asks why the Templars didn't simply make him tranquil after constantly running away.  But yes, those other references just reinforce the point that Anders isn't lying.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

50% of all Dalish keepers we have met, have turned into Abominations. Furthermore the Dalish themselves talk about Keepers turning into abominations, which is evidence that it does happen.
We havn't seen anything about Chasind culture or how many problems they have with Abominations, so there is no use speculating. Perhaps their Abomination problems are the reason they aren't a major threat anymore.
Avvar: same as Chasind.
And I'd say that Rivain clearly have Abomination problems since their own seers willingly let themselves become possessed. Not the best example of an Abomination free nation, with free mages.

'

Be honest.  That 50% comes from one out of two Dalish, undermining your point.  If the physical numbers were more like 50 out of 100, or 1,000 out of 2,000, sure.  But one out of...two, does not stand as sufficient evidence to prove how susceptible mages are.    Also, the Dalish talking about Keepers turning into abominations only supports Lob's point.  No one has ever denied that mages are at risk of turning into abominations.  The Dalish certainly don't deny it, and readily admit that when it happens, their hunters are forced to hunt and kill their Keeper.  But that's not where it ends.  Are you just deliberately ignoring the rest of the story because to acknowledge it would further undermine your claim?  The Dalish don't have an ingrained fear of mages or magic.  They accept the risk that their Keepers are exposed to, and are prepared to carry out the unpleasant task should the worst occur.  They do not lock away their mages, and there is nothing presented to us, either directly in either DA games, or indirectly through the lore, to suggest that the Dalish are, or have ever been, at considerably increased risk from allowing their mages to walk about freely.

None of the information we have on the Chasind or Rivain suggests that they are overrun with abominations--or corrupt blood mages, for that matter, or have ever been decimated by magic-related rampages.  If that were the case, I think we'd have seen some mention of it, as that would be a rather important point.  Especially in the case of Rivain's hedge mages.  The lore states that these "wise women" allow themselves to become possessed, and yet says nothing about these resultant "abominations" razing villages to the ground.  

Quite likely I think the situation of Rivain simply illustrates that the whole possessed mage = abomination concept is purely Chantry doctrine, and that various cultures don't necessarily agree.  Rivain certainly seems to be an indicator of a people who think that certain kinds of possession are fully benign.  And then of course there's Wynne's situation.  Maybe, just maybe, spirit possession is fundamentally different from demon possession and does not automatically have to mean the mage is an abomination.

Indeed there is lack of data. Yet somehow alot of people are are trying to pass off all of those cultures as a point in favor of freeing mages. All that I have tried to point out is, that we can't use those cultures for **** in this discussion, since we got next to no data on how things are in those cultures. It is all pure speculation. It is a point in nobody's favor so far.
But the continues use of the Dalish as an example of responsible mages is stupid beyond comapre. All the examples of Dalish mages (only Zathiren's first seems remotely capable, must be because she is a City Elf) have shown a blatant disregard for the safety of themselves and/or those around them. Yet somehow these are suppsoed to be a potential mage utopia? What the feck?

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hypothesis: Elthina wanted to die. She realized something large and dangerous was in the offing, but like Anders, recognized the mage/templar issue as one that went beyond Kirkwall, and allowed her own death in the hopes that a war right then would bring about more peace later.

She did say she would prepare for her death after you complete the Faith quest. Maybe she isn't an incompetent woman after all

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You'll have to excuse me if the fact that there's not an army of abominations coming out of the Kocari Wilds, the ruins of Sundermount, the Wending Woods, or the border of the kingdom of Rivain (where a semi-colony of Dalish reside) doesn't compel me to agree with you.

I'm not sure that the mighty count of two, can be consdired an army. We meet two Keepers in total, in both games, one of them turns into an Abomination, the other is a despicable blood mage. The Dalish are not the best example of responsible use of magic. At least not yet.

There are Keepers for every Dalish clan across Thedas, and there's a semi-colony of Dalish on the border of Rivain. There are mages in the clans who aren't Keepers, like Aneirin the Healer and the elven mage who had escaped from the Circle (and is referenced by Ariane). Also, Zathrian was a man who had his son brutally murdered and had his daughter commit suicide because she was pregnant as a result of rape by humans. Marethari didn't lose a battle of wills with anyone - she let a demon trapped by ancient elven magic inside of a totem into her body.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Evidence that the Dalish handle an abomination, instead of the templars?

Of course they handle it. Stick an Abomination enough times with a sword, and it dies. However, given the importance of the Dalish keepers, perhaps the Dalish should have been smart enough to avoid possession altogether. However, tehy aren't and they are exactly as susceptible to it, as any other mage.

Mages can be possessed, but we don't know how susceptiable the Keepers are to possession, so claiming they are as susceptiable as the Circle mages indicates you're addressing this based on information we're never explicitly given.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The only army of abominations the protagonist has to deal with are the result of the Chantry controlled Circle, and not the free mages living in the non-Andrastian societies.

Why do you keep talking about armies?
It only take one Abomination to cause a disaster.

Doesn't that mean that the Andrastian societies should be trying to prevent abominations rather than putting them in enviornments that will encourage them?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers have gone on record as saying they see abominations as mages controlled by demons rather than spirits. If there's no army of abominations destroying the kingdom of Rivain or its neighboring societies, it's possible the Rivain seers could be like Wynne - who was merged with a Spirit of Faith, but didn't see herself as an abomination because she retained her humanity.

Indeed. And Anders and justice has shown that a demon is just a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. Just became vengeance, after possessing Anders. Furthermore, the demons can masqerade as beneficial spirits if they would desire so, at least the more powerful could. Trick and decieve the seers into allowing the possession. All we have about Rivain is a single entry, which doesn't clarify wether it is a problem.

The entry you referenced mentioned this practice was done for over a millennia, and the kingdom of Rivain is still standing.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You mean other than teh fact that the Templars discovered Karl's plans to escape the Circle, which is illegal, which requires punishment?
Yes, there was proof that Karl was doing something illegal. However, there were doubts wether or not making him tranquil was the right punishment.

Karl was caught writing a letter.  I don't believe it's ever made clear what was in that letter.  Anders himself doesn't really know what had happened.  When asked, he says only that the letters he'd been exchanging suddenly stopped coming.  

Ser Bardel's doubts about having Karl tranquiled make it clear that he didn't think they had legal cause. 

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You mean other than teh fact that the Templars discovered Karl's plans to escape the Circle, which is illegal, which requires punishment?
Yes, there was proof that Karl was doing something illegal. However, there were doubts wether or not making him tranquil was the right punishment.

Karl was caught writing a letter.  I don't believe it's ever made clear what was in that letter.  Anders himself doesn't really know what had happened.  When asked, he says only that the letters he'd been exchanging suddenly stopped coming.  

Ser Bardel's doubts about having Karl tranquiled make it clear that he didn't think they had legal cause. 

Letters are a horrible thing to the templars of Kirkwall.  Samson says he was kicked out of the templars because they caught him delivering a letter from some Circle mage to his sweetheart on the outside.  Seems kind of harsh considering the whole lyrium withdrawal thing.  Shame they don't bring the hammer down on, say, rape, like they do on postal service.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean you have some proof that the Kirkwall Circle legally made Karl tranquil? Feel free to provide it, because it looks like there's no actual proof to dispute the fact that Ser Alrik, who was making mages tranquil illegally, did anything but make Karl tranquil illegally (which Ser Bardel seemed to think when he tried to see Meredith about this Rite).

That isn't what I was arguing. I was saying that Karl was discovered doing something illegal. Punishment was in order. Wether or not the use of the Rite was lawful is irrelevant in this case. The matter of fact is that it could have been used legally in this case. Depending on the course of action Orsino would have decided on.

It's not irrelevant when Anders is living proof that it's illegal to make a mage tranquil for running away from the Circle, since Aneirin needed the templars to consider him maleficar in order to try to kill him when he ran away at fourteen years old. Saying Karl should have been punished if they discovered he was writing letters to Anders, and saying it's irrelevant that he was illegally made tranquil, is missing the point because it's illegal.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wrong. Greagoir signed the Rite against Jowan despite the fact that Irving admits to the mage protagonist that he didn't want Jowan to be made tranquil.

He says it is out of his hands, because he has already signed the papers. He didn't want Jowan tranquiled, but he knew he had to. That is at least how I remember that conversation.

This isn't correct. Irving says things would be different if it was up to him, but it's up to the Chantry. Also, he never says he signed the papers, Lily says Greagoir signed the papers to put Jowan through the Rite of Tranquility.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You mean other than teh fact that the Templars discovered Karl's plans to escape the Circle, which is illegal, which requires punishment?
Yes, there was proof that Karl was doing something illegal. However, there were doubts wether or not making him tranquil was the right punishment.

Karl was caught writing a letter.  I don't believe it's ever made clear what was in that letter.  Anders himself doesn't really know what had happened.  When asked, he says only that the letters he'd been exchanging suddenly stopped coming.  

Ser Bardel's doubts about having Karl tranquiled make it clear that he didn't think they had legal cause. 

Letters are a horrible thing to the templars of Kirkwall.  Samson says he was kicked out of the templars because they caught him delivering a letter from some Circle mage to his sweetheart on the outside.  Seems kind of harsh considering the whole lyrium withdrawal thing.  Shame they don't bring the hammer down on, say, rape, like they do on postal service.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. And Anders and justice has shown that a demon is just a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. Just became vengeance, after possessing Anders. Furthermore, the demons can masqerade as beneficial spirits if they would desire so, at least the more powerful could. Trick and decieve the seers into allowing the possession. All we have about Rivain is a single entry, which doesn't clarify wether it is a problem.

Justice and Anders have shown that spirits can become demons, not that all demons are just spirits who have been perverted.  And they further show that a person's emotional state can warp a spirit.  Wynne, however, shows that it is not inevitable, but that rather a spirit can possess a person without becoming a demon.  It stands to reason that one of the reasons the people of Rivain have no issue with their mages becoming possessed is because those women are not abominations running around slaughtering the village.  That codex indicates that Rivain is rather attached to its seers, and I don't think that would be the case of those seers had a history of bringing death and destruction down upon their people.