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[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You'll have to excuse me if the fact that there's not an army of abominations coming out of the Kocari Wilds, the ruins of Sundermount, the Wending Woods, or the border of the kingdom of Rivain (where a semi-colony of Dalish reside) doesn't compel me to agree with you.[/quote]

I'm not sure that the mighty count of two, can be consdired an army. We meet two Keepers in total, in both games, one of them turns into an Abomination, the other is a despicable blood mage. The Dalish are not the best example of responsible use of magic. At least not yet. [/quote]

There are Keepers for every Dalish clan across Thedas, and there's a semi-colony of Dalish on the border of Rivain. There are mages in the clans who aren't Keepers, like Aneirin the Healer and the elven mage who had escaped from the Circle (and is referenced by Ariane). Also, Zathrian was a man who had his son brutally murdered and had his daughter commit suicide because she was pregnant as a result of rape by humans. Marethari didn't lose a battle of wills with anyone - she let a demon trapped by ancient elven magic inside of a totem into her body.[/quote]
And what marvellous examples of brilliance they both are. Marethari leaving her clan leaderless, and Zathrian almost getting/getting his clan killed. Oh wonderous joy it must be to have such capable leaders! They are both extraordinary morons. Merrill and Velanna even more so. Lanaya is the only Dalish mage who seems reasonable, but we hardly ever get to see her in action, so it is ofcourse based on speculation.
Aneirin isn't, have never been, and will never become a Dalish. He is an escaped Circle apprentice. That is it. An apostate.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Evidence that the Dalish handle an abomination, instead of the templars?[/quote]

Of course they handle it. Stick an Abomination enough times with a sword, and it dies. However, given the importance of the Dalish keepers, perhaps the Dalish should have been smart enough to avoid possession altogether. However, tehy aren't and they are exactly as susceptible to it, as any other mage. [/quote]

Mages can be possessed, but we don't know how susceptiable the Keepers are to possession, so claiming they are as susceptiable as the Circle mages indicates you're addressing this based on information we're never explicitly given.[/quote]
Unless you are suggesting Dalish are super-human(/Elves) I have absolutely no reason, to believe that the Dalish Keepers are any more resistnat to possession, than your average Circle Mage. If they were, Marethari wouldn't have taken issue with Merrill communicating with a demon.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The only army of abominations the protagonist has to deal with are the result of the Chantry controlled Circle, and not the free mages living in the non-Andrastian societies.[/quote]

Why do you keep talking about armies?
It only take one Abomination to cause a disaster. [/quote]

Doesn't that mean that the Andrastian societies should be trying to prevent abominations rather than putting them in enviornments that will encourage them?[/quote]
They should. And they do try and prevent them. They train their mages to be constantly aware of the threats of the Fade. And they have the Templars always vigilant to take care of the trouble, when a mage breaks.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers have gone on record as saying they see abominations as mages controlled by demons rather than spirits. If there's no army of abominations destroying the kingdom of Rivain or its neighboring societies, it's possible the Rivain seers could be like Wynne - who was merged with a Spirit of Faith, but didn't see herself as an abomination because she retained her humanity.[/quote]

Indeed. And Anders and justice has shown that a demon is just a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. Just became vengeance, after possessing Anders. Furthermore, the demons can masqerade as beneficial spirits if they would desire so, at least the more powerful could. Trick and decieve the seers into allowing the possession. All we have about Rivain is a single entry, which doesn't clarify wether it is a problem.[/quote]

The entry you referenced mentioned this practice was done for over a millennia, and the kingdom of Rivain is still standing.[/quote]
Natural disasters has wreaked havoc across hundreds of nations, through thousands of years, yet oddly they still stand. Of course Rivain is still standing despite Abominations. Abominations aren't all-powerful IWIN buttons. They are just that, natural disasters.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Actually, it's not. The only reason Jowan was intended to be Tranquilized was his never being Harrowed; note that Tranquility was never even considered for the mage Warden. There's no hint of the rite being used on Harrowed mages in Origins, and in Kirkwall, the laws are being just plain ignored.

Jowan havn't passed his Harrowing. Therefore it is fully legal to use the Rite on him, even if he has done no wrong. On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order. This punishment was to be put under the Rite of Tranquility. Again, it is legal to use the Rite on a Harrowed mage, as long as it is as punishment.

Not quite.  Jowan was also suspected of being a blood mage, which is why he was considered for Tranquility in the first place, and that poster's whole point was that Tranquility was the option because he hadn't undergone his Harrowing.  Otherwise, I'm fairly certain that the punishment for a blood mage would have been execution.  For that matter, I don't think you can just up and decide to use the Rite against an un-Harrowed mage just because.  It's not fully legal unless there's an actual reason.  I might be mistaken, but I think if a mage hasn't actually done anything wrong, then Tranquility is an option only if a mage requests it in lieu of undergoing the Harrowing.  A templar can't just up and say "Hey, that dude's not Harrowed, let's Tranquil him."

Even if we did know that the templars believed Karl was planning to escape, it does not follow that making him Tranquil was the legal punishment.  As was already pointed out to you, Anders escaped from the Tower seven times.  He is asked by the Warden why they didn't Tranquil him, and his response was "they can't make you Tranquil once you've passed your Harrowing."  Even if you think he's lying, well, if he is, then why wasn't he made Tranquil?  Especially after seven escapes.  Finally, if being made Tranquil was completely legal in Karl's case, then one wonders why Ser Bardel was so uncertain about carrying it out.

They only suspected him of using blood magic, but had no concrete proof on the matter until he actually used it to escape.

So, I found that to be unjust. They were operating off of a hunch. I mean, sure we find out he knows a little, but if someone said "He was a blood mage! He should've been made Tranquil!" that's metagaming knowledge.

[Xilizhra]

One would think that if a cultural tradition regularly led to destructive abomination rampages, that it would stop.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Wrong. Greagoir signed the Rite against Jowan despite the fact that Irving admits to the mage protagonist that he didn't want Jowan to be made tranquil.

I'm not sure this is accurate.  I seem to recall that Irving did agree to having Jowan made Tranquil.  I think his objection was over having Jowan punished while Lily got away scot free.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. And Anders and justice has shown that a demon is just a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. Just became vengeance, after possessing Anders. Furthermore, the demons can masqerade as beneficial spirits if they would desire so, at least the more powerful could. Trick and decieve the seers into allowing the possession. All we have about Rivain is a single entry, which doesn't clarify wether it is a problem.

Justice and Anders have shown that spirits can become demons, not that all demons are just spirits who have been perverted.  And they further show that a person's emotional state can warp a spirit.  Wynne, however, shows that it is not inevitable, but that rather a spirit can possess a person without becoming a demon.  It stands to reason that one of the reasons the people of Rivain have no issue with their mages becoming possessed is because those women are not abominations running around slaughtering the village.  That codex indicates that Rivain is rather attached to its seers, and I don't think that would be the case of those seers had a history of bringing death and destruction down upon their people.

Anders said sometime in Act 3 that "Justice and Vengeance are too intertwined. I can't tell one from the other."


I'd say my theory that what once was Justice is now Justice and Vengeance combined is now right.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean you have some proof that the Kirkwall Circle legally made Karl tranquil? Feel free to provide it, because it looks like there's no actual proof to dispute the fact that Ser Alrik, who was making mages tranquil illegally, did anything but make Karl tranquil illegally (which Ser Bardel seemed to think when he tried to see Meredith about this Rite).

That isn't what I was arguing. I was saying that Karl was discovered doing something illegal. Punishment was in order. Wether or not the use of the Rite was lawful is irrelevant in this case. The matter of fact is that it could have been used legally in this case. Depending on the course of action Orsino would have decided on.

It's not irrelevant when Anders is living proof that it's illegal to make a mage tranquil for running away from the Circle, since Aneirin needed the templars to consider him maleficar in order to try to kill him when he ran away at fourteen years old. Saying Karl should have been punished if they discovered he was writing letters to Anders, and saying it's irrelevant that he was illegally made tranquil, is missing the point because it's illegal.

The only thing that Anders is livnig proof of is that Irving liked him, and didn't want to use the Rite of Tranquility on him. It is the First Enchanter who decides when to use the Rite. To use it without the authority of the First Enchanter is illegal, not just in particular cases.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wrong. Greagoir signed the Rite against Jowan despite the fact that Irving admits to the mage protagonist that he didn't want Jowan to be made tranquil.

He says it is out of his hands, because he has already signed the papers. He didn't want Jowan tranquiled, but he knew he had to. That is at least how I remember that conversation.

This isn't correct. Irving says things would be different if it was up to him, but it's up to the Chantry. Also, he never says he signed the papers, Lily says Greagoir signed the papers to put Jowan through the Rite of Tranquility.

Indeed. He says it would be different if it was up to him. This means that Irving didn't sign the paper how exactly?
Indeed. Greagoir signed the paper. This means that Irving didn't sign them aswell how exactly?
It stands to reason that both the head of the Circle and the Templars would need to sign such a paper. And it can be speculated that Irving would like to handle things differently in the Circle. None of your examples, clearly states that Irving didn't sign the papers himself.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That isn't what I was arguing. I was saying that Karl was discovered doing something illegal. Punishment was in order. Wether or not the use of the Rite was lawful is irrelevant in this case. The matter of fact is that it could have been used legally in this case. Depending on the course of action Orsino would have decided on.

According to what or whom?  Are you saying that it doesn't matter what crime mage commits, that so long as they're Harrowed, any crime can warrant the Rite of Tranquility?  I'd like a source for that, if you please, because what I understand of the lore disputes this.  

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Natural disasters has wreaked havoc across hundreds of nations, through thousands of years, yet oddly they still stand. Of course Rivain is still standing despite Abominations. Abominations aren't all-powerful IWIN buttons. They are just that, natural disasters.

Point.  Missing it.  Sure various cultures can survive abominations, but if abominations were even a fraction as common or easy as you (and the game is dishonestly) trying to project (not proove...they HIDE the contrary evidence), then all cultures should have an innate fear of magic as a FOOTPRINT for the damage abominations have done over the years.  We do see such a footprint with the Qunari which tells me that some great magic based disaster happened in their distant past which perhaps explains how the Qunari can be so fearfuil of magic and yet so utilitarian about all other things.  We DO NOT see such fear with the Dalish, Chasind, Cultists, and Rivvain many of which  have had stable culties with mages living cheek and jowl with non-mages for centuries if not for over a thousand years.

All the Dalish should look like Merrill's clan after year 7 (a fearful and shattered husk) if what you suggest about abominations were true, which is very strong evidence that it's not.

That fact is that DA2 grossly skews the number of abominations and bloodmages (and the Devs have admitted this), and have changed how and how often they happen and HIDE the reason (Kirkwall is on a hellmouth) and then it invites us to generalize this anti-mage conclusion over all of Thedas based on bad data.

Bioware should be ashamed of themselves.  In an academic setting, this would be considered gross academenic and scholastic (and career killing) dishonesty (data cooking).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That isn't what I was arguing. I was saying that Karl was discovered doing something illegal. Punishment was in order. Wether or not the use of the Rite was lawful is irrelevant in this case. The matter of fact is that it could have been used legally in this case. Depending on the course of action Orsino would have decided on.

According to what or whom?  Are you saying that it doesn't matter what crime mage commits, that so long as they're Harrowed, any crime can warrant the Rite of Tranquility?  I'd like a source for that, if you please, because what I understand of the lore disputes this.  

If the First Enchanter thinks that the Rite is a punishment befit the crime. Yes, the Rite can be used as punishment for any crime. It requires the signature of both the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander apparently though. So it is only (legally) used in consensus. Like Jowan.
What happens in Kirkwall, is circumventing both Meredith and Orsino.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

One would think that if a cultural tradition regularly led to destructive abomination rampages, that it would stop.

Indeed it would, and that culture would view mages and magic accordingly.  That's how I strongly think that Qunari had in their past some great magic-based disaster that's colored their culture since.  If Abominations really were the overriding danger and of frequency the Chantry wants us to believe, we should see FOOTPRINTS of that in all societies of Thedas not just Andrastian ones.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

That fact is that DA2 grossly skews the number of abominations and bloodmages (and the Devs have admitted this), and have changed how and how often they happen and HIDE the reason (Kirkwall is on a hellmouth) and then it invites us to generalize this anti-mage conclusion over all of Thedas based on bad data.

Do you buy my theory about how most of the abominations are really old, and that they're the accumulation of all of those abominations that appeared in Kirkwall over the years of its existence?

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Natural disasters has wreaked havoc across hundreds of nations, through thousands of years, yet oddly they still stand. Of course Rivain is still standing despite Abominations. Abominations aren't all-powerful IWIN buttons. They are just that, natural disasters.

Point.  Missing it.  Sure various cultures can survive abominations, but if abominations were even a fraction as common or easy as you (and the game is dishonestly) trying to project (not proove...they HIDE the contrary evidence), then all cultures should have an innate fear of magic as a FOOTPRINT for the damage abominations have done over the years.  We do see such a footprint with the Qunari which tells me that some great magic based disaster happened in their distant past which perhaps explains how the Qunari can be so fearfuil of magic and yet so utilitarian about all other things.  We DO NOT see such fear with the Dalish, Chasind, Cultists, and Rivvain many of which  have had stable culties with mages living cheek and jowl with non-mages for centuries if not for over a thousand years.

All the Dalish should look like Merrill's clan after year 7 (a fearful and shattered husk) if what you suggest about abominations were true, which is very strong evidence that it's not.

That fact is that DA2 grossly skews the number of abominations and bloodmages (and the Devs have admitted this), and have changed how and how often they happen and HIDE the reason (Kirkwall is on a hellmouth) and then it invites us to generalize this anti-mage conclusion over all of Thedas based on bad data.

Bioware should be ashamed of themselves.  In an academic setting, this would be considered gross academenic and scholastic (and career killing) dishonesty (data cooking).

-Polaris

Uhm, so far all cultures we encoutner have a suspecious attitude towards magic. Only the Tevinter seems to be okay with magic.
Not even the Dalish are unafraid of magic. Magic is never used in front of other clan members, and Merrill is consdiered a monster for using blood magic.
So yeah, you got your footprint. You will however refuse to see it, as it doesn't fit your painting.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The entry you referenced mentioned this practice was done for over a millennia, and the kingdom of Rivain is still standing.

It's also worth noting that that codex, IIRC, was written by Brother Genitivi, a lay brother and Chantry scholar and definitely a true believer in Andraste from what we see of him in Origins.  Not exactly an unbiased source, and yet his entries are written with a notably objective tone.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There are Keepers for every Dalish clan across Thedas, and there's a semi-colony of Dalish on the border of Rivain. There are mages in the clans who aren't Keepers, like Aneirin the Healer and the elven mage who had escaped from the Circle (and is referenced by Ariane). Also, Zathrian was a man who had his son brutally murdered and had his daughter commit suicide because she was pregnant as a result of rape by humans. Marethari didn't lose a battle of wills with anyone - she let a demon trapped by ancient elven magic inside of a totem into her body.[/quote]

And what marvellous examples of brilliance they both are. Marethari leaving her clan leaderless, and Zathrian almost getting/getting his clan killed. Oh wonderous joy it must be to have such capable leaders! [/quote]

Zathrian lead his clan for centuries, and Marethari's new First (who is mentioned by Merrill) would ideally become the new Keeper of the clan.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are both extraordinary morons. Merrill and Velanna even more so. [/quote]

Velanna can change her views on humans and single handledly protect a village from attack because of The Warden's influence while Merrill is willing to give up her life for an opportunity that could benefit her peope across the continent and possibly change their lives in unexpected and transcendent ways.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lanaya is the only Dalish mage who seems reasonable, but we hardly ever get to see her in action, so it is ofcourse based on speculation. [/quote]

You mean the same Lanaya who keeps the peace between the Dalish and the humans, and is well respected at the royal court?

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aneirin isn't, have never been, and will never become a Dalish. He is an escaped Circle apprentice. That is it. An apostate. [/quote]

You mean the Aneirin wearing Dalish clothing and who has Blood Writing on his face isn't Dalish? He's part of Zathrian's clan; they say he lives to be out in the wilderness, which is why The Warden and Wynne meet him at a campfire in the wild.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be possessed, but we don't know how susceptiable the Keepers are to possession, so claiming they are as susceptiable as the Circle mages indicates you're addressing this based on information we're never explicitly given.[/quote]

Unless you are suggesting Dalish are super-human(/Elves) I have absolutely no reason, to believe that the Dalish Keepers are any more resistnat to possession, than your average Circle Mage. If they were, Marethari wouldn't have taken issue with Merrill communicating with a demon. [/quote]

Again, we don't know how resilent the Dalish mages are against possession. Also, Marethari thought Audacity would be released from the restored Eluvian.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Doesn't that mean that the Andrastian societies should be trying to prevent abominations rather than putting them in enviornments that will encourage them?[/quote]

They should. And they do try and prevent them. They train their mages to be constantly aware of the threats of the Fade. And they have the Templars always vigilant to take care of the trouble, when a mage breaks. [/quote]

Putting them in an oppressive dictatorship under a religious order that sees mages as subhuman doesn't seem like the ideal solution for the mages in Andrastian societies.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The entry you referenced mentioned this practice was done for over a millennia, and the kingdom of Rivain is still standing.[/quote]

Natural disasters has wreaked havoc across hundreds of nations, through thousands of years, yet oddly they still stand. Of course Rivain is still standing despite Abominations. Abominations aren't all-powerful IWIN buttons. They are just that, natural disasters.[/quote]

You're comparing nature to people, so I don't see it as a fair comparison. If the seers were so detrimental to life for the Rivanni people, they would drop them the same way the Tevinter dropped worship of the Old Gods after the First Blight.

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

Letters are a horrible thing to the templars of Kirkwall.  Samson says he was kicked out of the templars because they caught him delivering a letter from some Circle mage to his sweetheart on the outside.  Seems kind of harsh considering the whole lyrium withdrawal thing.  Shame they don't bring the hammer down on, say, rape, like they do on postal service.

Jerk.  You owe me a new keyboard.

*cleans off her monitor*

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

Justice and Anders have shown that spirits can become demons, not that all demons are just spirits who have been perverted.  And they further show that a person's emotional state can warp a spirit.  Wynne, however, shows that it is not inevitable, but that rather a spirit can possess a person without becoming a demon.  It stands to reason that one of the reasons the people of Rivain have no issue with their mages becoming possessed is because those women are not abominations running around slaughtering the village.  That codex indicates that Rivain is rather attached to its seers, and I don't think that would be the case of those seers had a history of bringing death and destruction down upon their people.

I'm not sure Justice actually is a demon now, nor that Anders' emotions are what warped Justice.  Justice certainly isn't nothing but good and pure now, but he's not necessarily a demon.  We don't really have much information on what went wrong but it seems just assumptions on Anders part.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm, so far all cultures we encoutner have a suspecious attitude towards magic. Only the Tevinter seems to be okay with magic.
Not even the Dalish are unafraid of magic. Magic is never used in front of other clan members, and Merrill is consdiered a monster for using blood magic.
So yeah, you got your footprint. You will however refuse to see it, as it doesn't fit your painting.

False.  The Dalish value magic and are even willing to overtly protect a human half-breed who is a mage AGAINST ON OVERT TEMPLAR ATTACK.  Merrill tells Fenynriel that it's his humanity NOT his magic that would seperate him.  We see similiar things with Anerin and others.  The Dalish quitely clearly do not fear magic.  They respect mages both Keerps and otherwise.  They respect the power of magic and fully understand the dangers but don't fear it.

As for Merrill, Keeper Meretheri (either on her own or by the twisted request of Audacity) has engaged in a 7 year long smear campaign against Merrill with her own clan...and you wonder why the Clan is afraid of Merrill.    What happened on Sundermount is NOT NORMAL so please stop pretending that it is.

Also the Cultists (who are an Andrastian offshoot) are clealry not afraid of magic in society.  Neither are the Chasind and neither are the Rivvain.  They respect magic and it's limitations but that's not the same thing.

Try again.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Second of all, he claims that the Tranquilization of a amge who has passed his Harrowing is illegal. That is untrue, if the mage is to be punished, it is legal to use the Rite. Another perfect example of Anders trying to sway Hawke to his point of view.

Actually, it's not. The only reason Jowan was intended to be Tranquilized was his never being Harrowed; note that Tranquility was never even considered for the mage Warden. There's no hint of the rite being used on Harrowed mages in Origins, and in Kirkwall, the laws are being just plain ignored.

Jowan havn't passed his Harrowing. Therefore it is fully legal to use the Rite on him, even if he has done no wrong. On the other hand, Karl was discovered to be conspiring to escape the Circle, which is illegal, thus punishment was in order. This punishment was to be put under the Rite of Tranquility. Again, it is legal to use the Rite on a Harrowed mage, as long as it is as punishment.

Not quite.  Jowan was also suspected of being a blood mage, which is why he was considered for Tranquility in the first place, and that poster's whole point was that Tranquility was the option because he hadn't undergone his Harrowing.  Otherwise, I'm fairly certain that the punishment for a blood mage would have been execution.  For that matter, I don't think you can just up and decide to use the Rite against an un-Harrowed mage just because.  It's not fully legal unless there's an actual reason.  I might be mistaken, but I think if a mage hasn't actually done anything wrong, then Tranquility is an option only if a mage requests it in lieu of undergoing the Harrowing.  A templar can't just up and say "Hey, that dude's not Harrowed, let's Tranquil him."

Even if we did know that the templars believed Karl was planning to escape, it does not follow that making him Tranquil was the legal punishment.  As was already pointed out to you, Anders escaped from the Tower seven times.  He is asked by the Warden why they didn't Tranquil him, and his response was "they can't make you Tranquil once you've passed your Harrowing."  Even if you think he's lying, well, if he is, then why wasn't he made Tranquil?  Especially after seven escapes.  Finally, if being made Tranquil was completely legal in Karl's case, then one wonders why Ser Bardel was so uncertain about carrying it out.

They only suspected him of using blood magic, but had no concrete proof on the matter until he actually used it to escape.

So, I found that to be unjust. They were operating off of a hunch. I mean, sure we find out he knows a little, but if someone said "He was a blood mage! He should've been made Tranquil!" that's metagaming knowledge.

Oh, I agree totally, which is why I pointed out he was suspected.  I prefer to believe they had hard evidence, but yes.  I agree it was unjust.  I also think that Jowan was telling the truth when he said that he dabbled in blood magic because he thought it would make him a better mage.  Surely there has to be a contextual difference between a young apprentice dabbling in blood magic out of curiosity, and one trying to learn it in order to gain power over others.  Also, I was never really impressed with Irving's methods of trying to "root out" potential troublemakers supposedly for the good of the Circle as a whole, by "encouraging" certain modes of thought in order, apparently, to weed out people who might be problems.  Really, Irving?  Leave tomes on blood magic lying around, really, in an environment where it's illegal and taught to be immoral and evil and all that jazz?  Really?!

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not irrelevant when Anders is living proof that it's illegal to make a mage tranquil for running away from the Circle, since Aneirin needed the templars to consider him maleficar in order to try to kill him when he ran away at fourteen years old. Saying Karl should have been punished if they discovered he was writing letters to Anders, and saying it's irrelevant that he was illegally made tranquil, is missing the point because it's illegal.

The only thing that Anders is livnig proof of is that Irving liked him, and didn't want to use the Rite of Tranquility on him. It is the First Enchanter who decides when to use the Rite. To use it without the authority of the First Enchanter is illegal, not just in particular cases.

There's no evidence Irving liked Anders. Gaider even said that Irving demanded proof that Anders was maleficar, which is why the templars under Greagoir's command didn't kill him and instead captured him. So far you seem to be supporting Ser Alrik, who threatened a child mage with tranquility and rape, when we know from what had happened with Anders that running away from a Circle (seven times no less) isn't an action that warrants the Rite of Tranquility.

We know from Jowan that if the Rite was warranted, it wouldn't be up to Irving. Knight-Commander Greagoir signed the Rite of Tranquility on Jowan, as Lily explicitly addressed to the mage protagonist, and it was not First Enchanter Irving. In fact, the mage protagonist is told by Irving that things would be different if it were up to him. Given that Greagoir signed the Rite, there's no evidence Irving had any control over the situation.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

This isn't correct. Irving says things would be different if it was up to him, but it's up to the Chantry. Also, he never says he signed the papers, Lily says Greagoir signed the papers to put Jowan through the Rite of Tranquility.

Indeed. He says it would be different if it was up to him. This means that Irving didn't sign the paper how exactly?

Because he says if the decision was up to him, he wouldn't condemn Jowan to the Rite of Tranquility.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. Greagoir signed the paper. This means that Irving didn't sign them aswell how exactly?

Because Lily would have mentioned Irving's signature would be on it as well instead of noting that it was only Greagoir's signature when she's trying to make the mage protagonist see that she's telling the truth. Since the dialogue option never has the mage protagonist ask Irving not to sign it as well, I don't see why you think there's any additional signature needed besides the Knight-Commander.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It stands to reason that both the head of the Circle and the Templars would need to sign such a paper.

The mages live in a dictatorship, so it doesn't stand to reason that more than the Knight-Commander's signature is needed.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And it can be speculated that Irving would like to handle things differently in the Circle. None of your examples, clearly states that Irving didn't sign the papers himself.

There's absolutely no evidence to even remotely suggest that an additional signature was needed for the Rite of Tranquility.

[IanPolaris]

Silfren,

I think that Uldred viewed Jowan as a potentially weak link and probably (indirectly) ratted him out by arranging it for Jowan to be able to learn bloodmagic in the first place, and then by ratting him out to Irving and Gregoire later. Irving's own letters show that he deputized the task of ferreting out bloodmagic to Uldred and had high praise for Uldred's performance.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the First Enchanter thinks that the Rite is a punishment befit the crime. Yes, the Rite can be used as punishment for any crime. It requires the signature of both the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander apparently though. So it is only (legally) used in consensus. Like Jowan.
What happens in Kirkwall, is circumventing both Meredith and Orsino.

Eh, if that was true, then it wouldn't be the case that templars can't make a mage Tranquil after their Harrowing.  If Anders is not the only source for that, and apparently he is not, then it follows that cases of making Harrowed mages Tranquil would have to be very extreme.

Again, I ask, where is your source for claiming that the Rite can be used for any crime? 

[TEWR]

Oh, I agree totally, which is why I pointed out he was suspected. I prefer to believe they had hard evidence, but yes. I agree it was unjust. I also think that Jowan was telling the truth when he said that he dabbled in blood magic because he thought it would make him a better mage. Surely there has to be a contextual difference between a young apprentice dabbling in blood magic out of curiosity, and one trying to learn it in order to gain power over others. Also, I was never really impressed with Irving's methods of trying to "root out" potential troublemakers supposedly for the good of the Circle as a whole, by "encouraging" certain modes of thought in order, apparently, to weed out people who might be problems. Really, Irving? Leave tomes on blood magic lying around, really, in an environment where it's illegal and taught to be immoral and evil and all that jazz? Really?!

Oh you have no idea how much I flipped out when I discovered that blood magic was considered "evil" and yet the Circle kept books on the subject where apprentices and other mages could read it. I use that almost all the time on blood magic debates on the forums here, and I always say that if they do view it as "evil", they shouldn't keep books on it anywhere within reach of anyone. To use a line I thought up long ago that describes this scenario:

You can teach a man the dangers of a bomb without giving him a detailed blueprint of how to make said bomb.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the First Enchanter thinks that the Rite is a punishment befit the crime. Yes, the Rite can be used as punishment for any crime. It requires the signature of both the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander apparently though. So it is only (legally) used in consensus. Like Jowan.
What happens in Kirkwall, is circumventing both Meredith and Orsino.

So basically, any crime warrants the RoT in your opinion? Brilliant!!

So if I'm a mage and I call you a cottonheaded ninnymuggins, I should be made Tranquil? I mean, it is slander how I'm calling you a cottonheaded ninnymuggins. Oh and I'm causing you emotional distress.

Ok, where's that lyrium stamp? I just committed a crime. better make myself tranquil

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Justice and Anders have shown that spirits can become demons, not that all demons are just spirits who have been perverted.  And they further show that a person's emotional state can warp a spirit.  Wynne, however, shows that it is not inevitable, but that rather a spirit can possess a person without becoming a demon.  It stands to reason that one of the reasons the people of Rivain have no issue with their mages becoming possessed is because those women are not abominations running around slaughtering the village.  That codex indicates that Rivain is rather attached to its seers, and I don't think that would be the case of those seers had a history of bringing death and destruction down upon their people.

I'm not sure Justice actually is a demon now, nor that Anders' emotions are what warped Justice.  Justice certainly isn't nothing but good and pure now, but he's not necessarily a demon.  We don't really have much information on what went wrong but it seems just assumptions on Anders part.

I think this is only shown on the Rivalry path, but at some point, Anders "admits" that Justice is now Vengeance.  I think that's pretty much what we are seeing: that Justice and Anders weren't expecting what would happen.  Anders does tell you in the beginning that the spirit within him was no longer his friend Justice, but a force of vengeance that had been twisted by Anders' outrage. 

Then again, it's also true that even after he says this, Anders, in the same conversation, denies that Justice is a demon, and seems to contradict himself at various points.  (He goes back and forth between saying that he and Justice are one, and referring to them as separate beings).  So bottom line I think that Anders is really just bloody confused and doesn't really know what happened.  But I tend to believe that he is an example of what can happen when a person with extremely volatile emotions becomes a host for a spirit.